Dublin Castle installing concrete "pedestrian" defences

MadsL

http://i.imgur.com/o195cXn.jpg

What the actual fuck? Does anyone running Dublin have half a brain?

An Taisce wrote:

February 8, 2013

Re: Legal Complaint – Re: Erection of Concrete Base Structure and No. 3 Flagpoles adjacent to City Hall at Cork Hill, Dublin.

Dear Mr Worrell,

Further to our email to Michael Philips City Engineer yesterday and to our telephone conversation this afternoon we thank you for confirming that there has been no consent under Part 8 of the Planning and Development Regulations 2001.

The concrete structure already inserted and proposed flag pole placement is highly injurious to the setting of major protected structures namely the City Hall, main entrance to Dublin Castle and the former Newconem Bank now the Rates Office.

This is one of the city’s iconic architectural ensembles featuring in a Malton print and State Visit arrivals to Dublin Castle.

The main pediment of the City Hall has three flag poles and the Rates Office three on the portico. The insertion of flagpoles on this site is unnecessary and unjustified apart from being visually deleterious.

In addition to this the structure erected is a waste of public money.

We do not consider any claim that the work is exempt from Part 8 of the Planning and Development Regulations 2001 consent because of sub threshold cost of the project applies and also because of the location of the works affecting major Protected Structures.

The claim made by Paul Heffernan Media Relations and Corporate Communications, Dublin City Council, this afternoon that “the structure is to provide more protection to pedestrians on this street. City Hall is on the Dublin walk from Trinity to Kilmainham and the left turn from Parliament St can be very busy, the works therefore provide a traffic calming measure. A part 8 wasn’t necessary”, has no basis.

Traffic calming has already been achieved by the erection of the line of black bollards half way across Cork Hill and there is no need for an additional structure particularly the large lumpy intrusive concrete structure inserted.

We request that the concrete base be removed forthwith and that no further works proceed.

We are also referring the matter to the OPW and Department of Arts Heritage and the Gaeltacht.

Yours sincerely,

Ian Lumley

Built Environment Heritage Officer,
An Taisce

P_1

What the actual hell is that eyesore :eek:

I know that particular junction is a nightmare for pedestrians given some motorists not knowing what an indicator is but surely they could have put something a bit less hideous looking there.

admiralofthefleet

feck. the handy shortcut to clanbrassil street is gone

phoenix999

On of the finest neo-Classical buildings in Dublin and they do that to it. What is the IQ of these idiots? Are they expecting a tank to come around that corner?

HeidiHeidi

:eek:

DebDynamite

MadsL wrote: »

What the actual fuck? Does anyone running Dublin have half a brain?

NO

MadsL

P_1 wrote: »

What the actual hell is that eyesore :eek:

I know that particular junction is a nightmare for pedestrians given some motorists not knowing what an indicator is but surely they could have put something a bit less hideous looking there.

Why not pedestrianise the street then! It could still have access for State visits and the like.

P_1

MadsL wrote: »

Why not pedestrianise the street then! It could still have access for State visits and the like.

The trouble with doing that is that it'd make too much sense.

Plus now we couldn't possibly be inconveniencing the motorists in any way now either.

MadsL

lordmayor@dublincity.ie

https://www.facebook.com/LordMayorDublin

Feel free to make comment.

This was done with ZERO public consultation or planning permission.

Larianne

admiralofthefleet wrote: »

feck. the handy shortcut to clanbrassil street is gone

Cars still turn in that street (although not at the moment, something on in Dublin Castle).

Annasopra

Larianne wrote: »

Cars still turn in that street (although not at the moment, something on in Dublin Castle).

EU presidency

AlekSmart

phoenix999 wrote: »

On of the finest neo-Classical buildings in Dublin and they do that to it. What is the IQ of these idiots? Are they expecting a tank to come around that corner?

OH I dunno,Phoenix,some of them appear to be progressing quite well within "The System",irrespective of IQ (or anything else) ....;)

http://www.bordgais.ie/corporate/cat_press_release_detail.jsp?itemID=537&n=0&p=0

I shudder to think what the "Irish Standard Water Meter Housing" will resemble ...:eek:

http://www.google.ie/url?sa=i&source=images&cd=&docid=eKv3SH3CgV9yfM&tbnid=6YRfjTwrGC2TDM:&ved=0CAUQjBwwAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.freecodesource.com%2Falbum-cover%2F61Ab-td5fbL%2FWho-Who%27s-Next.jpg&ei=bDUaUfPyNcqShgfe_ICICw&psig=AFQjCNEn5lq1YU94A-WcHzLqv5kv4FyPZw&ust=1360758508905688

Laneyh

MadsL wrote: »

http://i.imgur.com/o195cXn.jpg

What the actual fuck? Does anyone running Dublin have half a brain?

Unfortunately they're sharing that half brain with the people running the country. So, this is what that combined brain power comes up with.

KTRIC

I noticed this while they were installing dumping the concrete and wondered what it was. Its a monstrosity and completely unnecessary. Surely if there was no planning permission for it then it should be removed as an unlawful structure ??

Oink

MadsL wrote: »

[...] This was done with ZERO public consultation or planning permission.

What the hell is it with people and planning permissions. Are they optional or something? For fecks sake!

crockholm

Normal service resumed,official Ireland's distaste for historical buildings continues on it's merry way

CiaranK

Surely them little black and yellow poles in front of the concrete would have done the job on their own...

Laneyh

This EU Presidency seems to be responsible for some truly awful design/ planning.
The new logo of celtic swirls is completely unimaginative and most definitely not worth the money invested in it.

This eyesore is pathetic and doesn't even look like it will serve its purpose well.
If there is an increased security threat because of the presidency and meetings that will likely be taking place in Dublin Castle then they would need to review their security staffing.
They could also look to station mounted police there at times when key meetings are taking place.

The mounted police would be a bit of a novelty and tourist attraction in themselves.

If they need a barricade or something to block traffic they could also have been more creative about it.

There are a couple of small museums on the grounds of Dublin Castle. If they really need a blockade in that exact spot why not have something that would fit in with the surrounding a bit better -it could have advertising on it for the museums.

Better still if one existed have an old garda car parked there - again a tourist attraction of its own accord, not too hard on the eye and could be used to advertise the garda museum which is in Dublin Castle.
I realise that drunken yahoos might be a little too attracted to this but if they are caught vandalising it they should be heavily fined. As it stands the concrete slab will definitely have graffiti daubed on it

I've seen structures like this lump of concrete on streets in London around Fleet St - they serve to restrict traffic and for security but they were always on side streets not in front of historic buildings.

I suppose giving it any kind of thought would be way too much work for those involved, far better to just plonk a lump of concrete there and do no more about it

Mr Whirly

Cars can still turn there but now they are forced to pay attention when swinging in. It's easily the most dangerous crossing in the city centre. Not an ideal solution but better than the nonsense that was happening there.

arybvtcw0eolkf

I think it looks great

/I don't.

seamus

It looks awful in the photo, but it may look better in person. The intent is good - at that particular junction, westbound traffic on Dame Street could effectively use that as a slip road without slowing down, presenting a danger to pedestrians. This will actually force them to slow down and turn properly.

But jaysus, it looks awful in that photo. It looks like the temporary concrete dividers you'd erect during roadworks. A piece of modern art, or a little garden or something - anything - would have looked better while having the same effect.

I feel like I'm the only one that looked at that photo and thought, "ah, they're just zombie proofing"

Larianne

seamus wrote: »

It looks awful in the photo, but it may look better in person. The intent is good - at that particular junction, westbound traffic on Dame Street could effectively use that as a slip road without slowing down, presenting a danger to pedestrians. This will actually force them to slow down and turn properly.

But jaysus, it looks awful in that photo. It looks like the temporary concrete dividers you'd erect during roadworks. A piece of modern art, or a little garden or something - anything - would have looked better while having the same effect.

Nope, looks like that in real life. I pass it every day on the way to college. I wondered what it was. It looks like it was a piece of concrete just dumped there. Would extending the path there, not have been a more appropriate idea?

Biggins

seamus wrote: »

...A piece of modern art, or a little garden or something - anything - would have looked better while having the same effect.

Exactly.
If we can spend daft money for paintings for the Dail (inc €10k for one of Bertie sitting on a chair) which very few public people will see - we can shift same amounts to better use and at least have better on a more public eye object.

suicide_circus

A hideous eyesore. This needs to be removed immediately. Please, everyone who cares about Dublin City, contact the authorities and complain.

markpb

MadsL wrote: »

lordmayor@dublincity.ie

https://www.facebook.com/LordMayorDublin

Feel free to make comment.

This was done with ZERO public consultation or planning permission.

It's worth re-posting this. If you disagree with that they did, get in touch with them!

My name is URL

It looks like something you'd see in Karbala to keep suicide bombers at bay.

MadsL

Mr Whirly wrote: »

Cars can still turn there but now they are forced to pay attention when swinging in. It's easily the most dangerous crossing in the city centre. Not an ideal solution but better than the nonsense that was happening there.

Why not pedestrianise the street? - extend the pavement - and station a couple of Irish Defence Forces squaddies in formal uniform to police a couple of pedestrian barriers to allow cars in and out. Couple of sentry boxes (painted sheds!) and remove in six month time. Then leave it pedestrian priority.

A Disgrace

A couple of large boxed plants would work better, and be removed when required or some chained granite bollards (preferably historic ones which I'm sure the Council have in storage somewhere) would integrate with the surroundings

I have no faith in DCC - they have picked away at this city and left it the absoulte mess that it is now.

Dublin needs a directly elected Mayor with regulatory powers. Someone with a keen interest in this city itself, and preferably a Dubliner.

MadsL

Couple of Councillors I emailed got this response from the Asst City Manager

Dear Councillor,

In relation to your query about the flagpoles adjacent to City Hall these are temporary works that were carried out for the purpose of traffic management aimed at increasing pedestrian safety at this location. The matter had become more urgent due to the increased volumes of traffic arising from the use of Dublin Castle during EU Presidency. The nature of the works and there purpose deemed them to be exempt from requring planning consent. As I explained they are temporary and it is intended to address the issue of pedestrian safety in a more permanent manner through the design process which will also go through a formal statutory planning procedure. I hope this clarifies the matter for you and dont hesitate to contact me if you have any further questions.

Regards
Jim

Jim Keogan | Executive Manager | Planning and Economic Development

BostonB

What are the bollards for then?

MadsL

A Disgrace wrote: »

A couple of large boxed plants would work better, and be removed when required or some chained granite bollards (preferably historic ones which I'm sure the Council have in storage somewhere) would integrate with the surroundings

Oh God, don't give them ideas! They have hundreds of those plants in pallets.

I have no faith in DCC - they have picked away at this city and left it the absoulte mess that it is now.

Look down when next you are standing on historic granite pavements, in situ for well over 200 years. The utter mess left by DCC in 'maintaining' these pavements cost Dublin a place as a World Heritage City some years ago. DCC plough on blindly ripping out and butchering such pavements, this being the latest example. The problem is that a only a handful of people complain and so they continue to allow Roads and Traffic to run Dublin. The city is run by engineers not planners. :mad:

Dublin needs a directly elected Mayor with regulatory powers. Someone with a keen interest in this city itself, and preferably a Dubliner.

+1 It is beyond time.

In the meantime please email Councillors and the Lord Mayor on this. Or jim.keogan@dublincity.ie Boss of Planning.

A Disgrace

MadsL wrote: »

Couple of Councillors I emailed got this response from the Asst City Manager

Temporary things have a habit of becoming permanent in this city, and considering they already have the traffic barriers in front of it anyway, I don't buy his response.

In fact, people will still walk in front of it anyway, as it is set well back from the traditional pedistrian stream. It's obviously a flagpost stand, so why didn't he just say that? Werid.

P_1

Yeah, if the concrete is to protect pedestrians then having it where it is isn't going to do much protecting

MadsL

Mr Whirly wrote: »

Cars can still turn there but now they are forced to pay attention when swinging in. It's easily the most dangerous crossing in the city centre. Not an ideal solution but better than the nonsense that was happening there.

Pedestrianise it and put a Garda vehicle in it for two weeks. Ticket anyone caught driving into it unless they have cause for access, are on State business or parking permit for Dublin Castle. Problem solved.

On what basis is it "the most dangerous crossing in the city centre"? I'm sure there are worse, after all DCC managed to put this idiocy up. http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=56480271

A Disgrace

MadsL wrote: »

Look down when next you are standing on historic granite pavements, in situ for well over 200 years. The utter mess left by DCC in 'maintaining' these pavements cost Dublin a place as a World Heritage City some years ago.

DCC plough on blindly ripping out and butchering such pavements, this being the latest example

The way Dublin is lately, I try to walk around with my eyes shut as much as possible. The removal of the footpath slabs in particular is a big bugbear of mine. The few remaining stretches, whilst showing signs of aging, are still pretty much in better condition than the concrete and cheap chinese granite ones they've laid over the last 20 years (especially the ones in this area)

They simply don't care

Morag

Is something to stop fecking taxi drivers doing a U turn on top of people trying to cross the road?

Wossack

P_1 wrote: »

Yeah, if the concrete is to protect pedestrians then having it where it is isn't going to do much protecting

quite the opposite I'd have thought.. wouldnt fancy being between a 30-40kph car and that concrete

MadsL

A Disgrace wrote: »

Temporary things have a habit of becoming permanent in this city, and considering they already have the traffic barriers in front of it anyway, I don't buy his response.

In fact, people will still walk in front of it anyway, as it is set well back from the traditional pedistrian stream. It's obviously a flagpost stand, so why didn't he just say that? Werid.

And there are three flagpoles on top of City Hall, numerous flagpoles at Dublin Castle. Quite why more are needed is beyond me.

DCC have fcked up the other entrance to the Castle now seem intent on ruining the other.

Clueless.

As to a guess on the cost of this I have to quote from Archiseek, my more knowledgeable co-objectors on the staggering cost of "bollard works".

What a load of bollards!

A recent FOI request by an Archiseek regular uncovered that works to erect a row of bollards along the western part of Parnell Square viewtopic.php?f=49&t=3777&start=125 in 2011 cost in the region of €20k and that the average bollard costs €150-€200.

Nerdy me counted the number on Dame Street after the recent street improvements/ reinforcement of status quo late last year and I counted approx 250....thats 50k worth of bollards alone. No money for seats on the street for the elderly, no money for improved and attractive street lighting, no money for trees, no money for planting, no money to make an effort to rein in the vomit of signage and unauthorised crap that is accumulating on the street these past few months....but €50k to waste on bollards and another €10k (I assume) to waste on this rubbish.

Your City: Your Space be damned... perhaps Your Space: Our Waste is more apt

http://www.archiseek.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=8009&p=117181#p117181

Mr Whirly

MadsL wrote: »

Pedestrianise it and put a Garda vehicle in it for two weeks. Ticket anyone caught driving into it unless they have cause for access, are on State business or parking permit for Dublin Castle. Problem solved.

On what basis is it "the most dangerous crossing in the city centre"? I'm sure there are worse, after all DCC managed to put this idiocy up. http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=56480271

Ah yeah. As I said it's not ideal but it's better than nothing. I'd be all for it being pedestrianised. Considering what they did to the green area that was there they could do with making up for it a bit.

The amount of drunk people walking up towards Christchurch coupled with the chaos created by taxi drivers along there make it a fairly lethal crossing if you ask me.

Hootanany

They could have put a couple of old Cannons bolted down where the concrete is,It would have blended in nicely and done the same job at fraction of the cost.

MadsL

So DCC just published and ratified the "Public Realm Strategy" in September.

The legacy of Dublin’s public heritage must be protected, maintained, and integrated with respect into contemporary requirements. The design quality of new proposals or upgrade works is the first step in achieving a high quality public realm and should allow for the input of the general public along with all other stakeholders.

and yet...

Head of Planning determines that "The extent of the works and there purpose deemed them to be exempt from requring planning consent. "

No public process nor any need to inform Councillors. :mad:

Do they even read the stuff they print?

MadsL

So I just got an email letting me know that there will be a motion at the next Council Meeting calling for the removal of this " structure" and that it was and is inappropriate and should be removed forthwith.

Paul Clerkin of Archiseek describes it as The Tomb of the Unknown Gurrier

shed head

are you all crazy, this is perfect for me and my trials bike - big up DCC

hames

Some perspective here maybe

(i) it is a temporary structure

(ii) this can be a very dangerous pedestrian crossing, which is obscured on one side by the protrusion of City Hall relative to the crossing.

recylingbin

I think the yellow steel sets the grey off, if anything. It's the juxtaposition of the old with the new that intrigues.

MadsL

hames wrote: »

Some perspective here maybe

(i) it is a temporary structure

(ii) this can be a very dangerous pedestrian crossing, which is obscured on one side by the protrusion of City Hall relative to the crossing.

And the perspective would also be:

(i) Ban cars from entering unless on official business, which prevents the "problem" of taxis using it as a turn-around. Problem solved for the cost of a no entry sign. Yes, this is temporary...and also a temporary waste of money; whilst we still have no decent street lighting in Westmoreland St. for example.

(ii) Very dangerous? Any real information, has anyone been seriously injured or hurt there.

(iii) DCC seem happy enough to block car sightlines on the Camden St crossing with JC Decaux ads.

hames

MadsL wrote: »

And the perspective would also be:

(i) Ban cars from entering unless on official business, which prevents the "problem" of taxis using it as a turn-around. Problem solved for the cost of a no entry sign. Yes, this is temporary...and also a temporary waste of money; whilst we still have no decent street lighting in Westmoreland St. for example.

Seriously man crank much?

You've about six posts in this page alone aboiut a temporary structure, presumably for the duration of the Presidency with lots of people using the street. I think most people who use the area accept this is one of the least safe crossings in the area. There are no lights and the crossing is almost blind on one side.

I don't think the barrier is beautiful, and was opposed to it until I realised it is temporary. But I don't think it's particularly comment worthy beyond this post.

Good day to you!

MadsL

hames wrote: »

Seriously man crank much?

How I about I put the cost of it at about €15,000 - do you think that is good value?

You've about six posts in this page alone aboiut a temporary structure,

I know, sorry about that. I've been busy, I would have posted more.

Tell me more about the "quota" on how much I post on my own thread?

presumably for the duration of the Presidency with lots of people using the street. I think most people who use the area accept this is one of the least safe crossings in the area. There are no lights and the crossing is almost blind on one side.

And yet nothing has been done til now because we need some flagpoles. Hmm.

I don't think the barrier is beautiful, and was opposed to it until I realised it is temporary.

So is dog shit on the street. Doesn't make it acceptable.

But I don't think it's particularly comment worthy beyond this post.

Good day to you!

And yet here you are, commenting. The Ironing is strong in this one.

markpb

hames wrote: »

Some perspective here maybe

(i) it is a temporary structure

(ii) this can be a very dangerous pedestrian crossing, which is obscured on one side by the protrusion of City Hall relative to the crossing.

1. Even temporary structures can be done properly, in keeping with their surroundings.

2. If this junction is so dangerous, why wasn't it fixes ages ago? Presumably it took some mutterings from an EU executive to get DCC to fix it. If it's been dangerous for so long, why not take some extra time to fix it properly.


Every time DCC do something like this to the historic parts of Dublin, the only question you can ask is: would this happen in a historic part of London or Paris? Would they dump a lump of concrete in front of a building that is hundreds of years ago and claim it'll be okay when the flags pop up their heads in spring?

MadsL

Flagpoles will be up tomorrow. Dublin flags! :rolleyes: