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homeless girl central bank
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11-02-2013 10:06pm#1Has anyone seen the girl that begs and sleeps around central bank/college green and sometimes on O'connell bridge?
My heart goes out to all homeless people but she has a gentleness about her that makes me want to pick her up and wrap her in a blanket...
She's clearly a heroin addict..it's so sad, is there any way to help besides handing over money?0
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Homelessness is a difficult problem and unfortunately is rarely solved through direct cash transfers. Many of these people suffer from drug addictions and mental health problems (Often the two go hand in hand). You could give that woman a hundred euro, and chances are she'll go straight to her local dealer and have enough to do her for a few days. What happens after that? Straight back on to the street until the next misguided paragon of virtue throws her some money.
I think the question should be more directed towards homelessness in general as opposed this woman in particular as this sort of discussion isn't quite in sync with the objectives of this forum. As an aside, I think I know the lady you're talking about and she used to take her child out begging with her, which led me to think that she wasn't actually homeless but a professional beggar, disgracefully using a child in order to get more cash.0 -
Buy her some foodHas anyone seen the girl that begs and sleeps around central bank/college green and sometimes on O'connell bridge?
My heart goes out to all homeless people but she has a gentleness about her that makes me want to pick her up and wrap her in a blanket...
She's clearly a heroin addict..it's so sad, is there any way to help besides handing over money?0 -
Homelessness is a difficult problem and unfortunately is rarely solved through direct cash transfers. Many of these people suffer from drug addictions and mental health problems (Often the two go hand in hand). You could give that woman a hundred euro, and chances are she'll go straight to her local dealer and have enough to do her for a few days. What happens after that? Straight back on to the street until the next misguided paragon of virtue throws her some money.
I think the question should be more directed towards homelessness in general as opposed this woman in particular as this sort of discussion isn't quite in sync with the objectives of this forum. As an aside, I think I know the lady you're talking about and she used to take her child out begging with her, which led me to think that she wasn't actually homeless but a professional beggar, disgracefully using a child in order to get more cash.
I went through addiction services myself and would like to pay it forward so to speak. I was never homeless so I can't even begin to imagine how hard that is, I just know that in order to believe life can be better you have to get help from the right people. In my experience not all people in the helping professions have the kind of self belief that can inspire someone in that situation to aim for better.
I suppose what I'm wondering is what are the steps to getting a place on a treatment programme etc, from the streets up...?
...btw it's not the one with the baby, you would notice her if you saw her she looks like a young Sinead o'connor.0 -
You could give that woman a hundred euro, and chances are she'll go straight to her local dealer and have enough to do her for a few days. What happens after that? Straight back on to the street until the next misguided paragon of virtue throws her some money.
Or perhaps it would get her a roof over he head for the night in a hostel, or a hot meal to get her through a cold day, or even restore some faith in humanity.
I think its rather patronizing and presumptuous to call people willing to donate 'misguided paragons of virtue'.
OP I have given people a bag of McD's, some small sum of cash on occasion, and to one young guy I saw regularly, a phone number and contact name of an agency working in this area. I think it's nice you want to do something to pay your help forward.0 -
No more presumptuous than the belief that such people have that what they do helps or even does not make things worse.I think its rather patronizing and presumptuous to call people willing to donate 'misguided paragons of virtue'.
The reality is that a lot of charity does end up either not helping or in reality making the problem worse. This was experienced in the wake of Live Aid programme in the 1980's, that resulted in mass migrations towards aid camps, leaving farms deserted and resulting in a virtual collapse of any farming infrastructure that may have replaced the aid in the long term.
This is before one considers criminality and scams; after all, just because someone looks as if they have a "has a gentleness about" them, doesn't mean they do or that they only do so as part of a well thought out con - indeed, ever wonder why those babies that they often have never cry? If you're a nervous disposition, I suggest you never seek an answer to that question.
People should realistically inform themselves before they help; if you're moved to action simply because of pity, guilt or other emotions, then you really should stop and think first - otherwise you may simply be scammed or, worse still, help to perpetuate the very poverty trap you wish to alleviate.0 -
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Ok so I spoke to her tonight, her name is Suzanne and she's lovely. I offered to buy her some tea and a sandwich but she wanted coke and chocolate...so got her some of those
I asked her if she's doing a lot of drugs, which clearly she is as her teeth are brown from heroin and she's nodding constantly, she said she only smokes hash and seemed annoyed when I told her about an amazing counsellor in castle street clinic..as she had already told me she doesn't do drugs...
After that she want listening to me a she had shut off when I mentioned counselling.
I came away feeling like I had patronised the girl. Lesson learned here for me is that I was massively projecting my stuff onto her thinking she wanted and needed help
She's actually perfectly happy (not sure that's the right word, just figure of speech here) sitting waiting for money from people and getting stoned in the mean time
I suppose if she really wanted to change things help is there
I have to say though her face lit up when I asked her name so I'll be saying hello from now on, maybe that'll help!0 -
Her face lit up because she thought you were going to give her money. You already know she does hard drugs, she is there by choice. I'm sorry, but I don't have a lot of sympathy for her.0
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Her face lit up because she thought you were going to give her money. You already know she does hard drugs, she is there by choice. I'm sorry, but I don't have a lot of sympathy for her.
No that wasn't the way it went actually, if you don't have sympathy for a homeless person with a drug problem what are you doing on the humanities forum?0 -
No that wasn't the way it went actually, if you don't have sympathy for a homeless person with a drug problem what are you doing on the humanities forum?
I have sympathy for her as an abstraction, which is why I'm on the humanities forum. I've sympathy for the economic and social forces that have led her to her current predicament. But I've no sympathy for the money grabbing woe-is-me routine she is clearly employing. Plenty of poor people who are completely down and out would be disgusted at the very idea of begging for money off people, in this she isn't representative of the underclass. She is representative of the parasitic class. She is exploitative and you have been exploited.0 -
I have sympathy for her as an abstraction, which is why I'm on the humanities forum. I've sympathy for the economic and social forces that have led her to her current predicament. But I've no sympathy for the money grabbing woe-is-me routine she is clearly employing. Plenty of poor people who are completely down and out would be disgusted at the very idea of begging for money off people, in this she isn't representative of the underclass. She is representative of the parasitic class. She is exploitative and you have been exploited.
To refer to someone or a group of people as a parasitic class is pretty cold if you ask me... and having sympathy for someone 'as an abstraction' is the maddest thing I've ever heard.
Nobody likes the victim complex but we are all part of the society that has produced these victims.
Oh and for the second time that wasn't the way it went, I'd appreciate it if you could stop telling me what my experience was.0 -
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It is in her power to change her life, yet she has made a decision to beg for a living instead. That is the very definition of a parasite. If I thought I could personally do something to help her as an individual I would, but the only person who can help her is herself. Thats why all this focus on individuals kinda irritates me, it destroys the broader argument and makes it weepy and sentimental.0
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It is in her power to change her life, yet she has made a decision to beg for a living instead. That is the very definition of a parasite. If I thought I could personally do something to help her as an individual I would, but the only person who can help her is herself. Thats why all this focus on individuals kinda irritates me, it destroys the broader argument and makes it weepy and sentimental.
I get where you're coming from but you're over simplifying it. This girl is only 19, early 20s maybe and has probably been knocked down every time she tried to stand up for herself...that's not me being sentimental, that's the reality of things and what leads a lot of people to become addicts
You wouldn't be committed to a life of heroin and begging if you thought you deserved better, to just brand all addicts as typical and lump them in the one parasitic class is cold and dangerously similar to what has been done by groups time and tine again throughout history0 -
Ya there's a definite dehumanizing implication through labeling her a parasite, and she also may have far less control over her circumstances than is implied also; certainly, mental health problems that may land someone in such a position, combined with hard drugs which are heavily addictive, can very thoroughly limit the amount of control a person has over themselves and their life.
I don't think focusing on individuals is harmful at all, in fact it's essential in promoting empathy and interest in understanding; being able to see the bigger picture, isn't mutually exclusive with being able to empathize with individual cases, and in fact I'd say focusing on the bigger picture to the exclusion of individual cases, risks allowing a distance which could allow for small problems in outlook, to lead to an overall dehumanizing view (which attention to individual cases would put a check on, through empathy).
I think actually, that a person who is addicted to drugs and who may be begging to fuel a drug habit, is a really great example of the need to partially focus on the individual, specifically because it is so easy to look at the situation in negative/judging terms; her situation may not give additional insight into the 'bigger picture' societal issues, beyond what is already known, but the capability of being able to look at her in dehumanizing terms, does imply some big faults in that view that are worth looking at.0 -
I'm not sure you understand what humanities actually means.No that wasn't the way it went actually, if you don't have sympathy for a homeless person with a drug problem what are you doing on the humanities forum?
Now while I would not devoid of sympathy for the girl, neither would I allow my heart to rule my head as you clearly have. For example you are completely uncritical of her, despite realizing that she was untruthful and that she was content in her lifestyle. Additionally you repeatedly describe her in amorous terms such as "gentleness" and "lovely", which frankly sound more like you've fallen in love with her, and had she been an ugly, semi-toothless man, you would have paid little, if any, notice.
The reality is that despite her telling you her name (there's actually no guarantee it is her name, but let's give her the benefit of the doubt), you really know nothing about her. You don't even know if she's homeless.
I have a good friend, whom 25 years ago or so was a bit of a hippy. She was a pretty heavy smoker at the time (both tobacco and hash) and had pretty disgustingly brown teeth (so your little angel could well have been telling the truth), looked homeless and in fact used to beg on a regular basis - she used to make a fair bit of money from this. She wasn't homeless and in reality came from a very respectable D4 family, her father being a senior civil servant. Her lifestyle was very clearly parasitic.
Anyhow, she grew out of it, as one does; she finished her degree (then did a masters), bought a house, is now an experienced developer and a middle class 'yummy mummy'. The odd time she complains about how much tax she pays, I remind her of her past, which tends to pull the moral carpet from under her.
This story only illustrates how essentially clueless you are - I don't mean that as an insult - we're all pretty clueless. This post, on the other thread on this subject here, was a bit of an eye opener for me, as it frankly should have been for you (given you've posted on that thread). In it, someone who was homeless clearly states that giving money is a mistake; that the real problem is not that such people have no beds to sleep in or food to eat, but that where the system fails them is in assistance in climbing out of the situation they're in - and honestly, I do think that this over-empathic addiction to be taken advantage of probably adds to the problem as it gives them reason not to seek to climb out.
As a caveat, giving money to the homeless was once described to me as 'protection money'. The price of heroin dropped substantially following the NATO invasion of Afghanistan, and with it violent crime in the West. Why? Because junkies could beg for enough money for their daily fix and no longer needed to steal to do so. So on that level, the logic goes, that if we do give them money today, then they won't have to mug us tonight.
Nonetheless, I think you probably need to reassess your approach to the homeless. I'm not saying that you should get all puritanical and Victorian, but at the same time your emotional approach is more likely to add to and prolong the problem, not help solve it.
Presuming this is your approach to the homeless overall - it may be only your approach to this particular homeless girl, given some of your comments. If so, maybe next time you should just ask her out on a date.0 -
The Corinthian wrote: »I'm not sure you understand what humanities actually means.
That question wasn't for you actually but thanks for your input0 -
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The Corinthian wrote: »Always happy to enrich another's mind.
Didn't read past the first sentence, sorry!0 -
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Plenty of poor people who are completely down and out would be disgusted at the very idea of begging for money off people, in this she isn't representative of the underclass. She is representative of the parasitic class. She is exploitative and you have been exploited.
I would concur with this viewpoint, I was in temporary accommodation many years ago and was poor, as in not enough to eat for 6-8 months due to various bad choices (not drugs) I never begged and managed to get two low paid part time jobs that got me out of my accommodation problem for a while, then I was let go, it was a recession, and I was on the dole but working for a charity shop for something to do and gain experience, I remember one time having walked four miles so I could keep the £1.20 bus money having ate just two bread and butter sandwiches that day, a group of people begged aggressively off me because I didn't look poor, they thought I was tight, I just hid it better than they did. To this day I suspect they had more more money than me as such I do believe people have a choice to beg or not to beg. I rarely give money to people on the streets and I don't feel sorry for them but neither do I look down on them. I just know they made a choice. I think the hand out mentality is incorrect, charity should be about helping people to help themselves. I believe that the genuinely poor keep it very hidden where they can.0 -
I would concur with this viewpoint, I was in temporary accommodation many years ago and was poor, as in not enough to eat for 6-8 months due to various bad choices (not drugs) I never begged and managed to get two low paid part time jobs that got me out of my accommodation problem for a while, then I was let go, it was a recession, and I was on the dole but working for a charity shop for something to do and gain experience, I remember one time having walked four miles so I could keep the £1.20 bus money having ate just two bread and butter sandwiches that day, a group of people begged aggressively off me because I didn't look poor, they thought I was tight, I just hid it better than they did. To this day I suspect they had more more money than me as such I do believe people have a choice to beg or not to beg. I rarely give money to people on the streets and I don't feel sorry for them but neither do I look down on them. I just know they made a choice. I think the hand out mentality is incorrect, charity should be about helping people to help themselves. I believe that the genuinely poor keep it very hidden where they can.
You're saying you don't look down on people who beg but concur with labelling them a 'parasitic class'
You have fallen on hard times in the past but seem to be a fairly empowered individual. Not all people who are homeless are like you. It's commendable that you managed to change your situation but clearly you have the skills to do so and by the sounds of things, it was a matter of not having enough money that led to you to being homeless...(not undermining your storey here, just going by what you've written)
This is not the case for all homeless people. As a poster above has already said, choices become very limited for someone who has a drug problem and/or mental health issues.
Anyway, I saw Suzanne today, she was face down in her sleeping bag on west morland St. gave her a massive bar of dairy milk and she was chuffed...money well spent and I'm happy to do that as often as I see her, better than giving her money for heroin!0 -
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Anyway, I saw Suzanne today, she was face down in her sleeping bag on west morland St. gave her a massive bar of dairy milk and she was chuffed...money well spent and I'm happy to do that as often as I see her, better than giving her money for heroin!
You really aren't doing her any good, you know.0 -
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lolo62,
Certain remarks, such as your trite "didn't read past the first sentence, sorry" reply to The Corinthian, and your above response to Denerick, which is bordering on personal and explicitly forbidden by the forum charter, are unwelcome; such comments result in a lowering of the quality of debate and often lead to petty bickering and arguments, with the result being a stagnant, unfriendly discussion. In future, please consider what your reply is intended to contribute to the thread before posting it; if it contributes nothing more than what I've described above, then don't bother posting it. Thank you.0 -
Look, I know you think that you and this girl have some kind of connection. Maybe you think it'll have a Hollywood ending and she'll go on to star in her own angela's ashes style biopic. But I think the Corinthian had it pretty nailed down when he said you speak about her in amorous terms. Were she a 70 year old man with buck teeth and a scar on his face I really don't think you'd care as much or buy him any chocolate.
Homelessness is a bigger problem than just one person, buying a dairy milk bar for somebody who has a made a choice to be where they are is helping nobody, and certainly not helping her. She has an income source and is technically not even homeless as she has access to shelter. She is seeking somebody to finance her drug addiction. As I said before, you've been exploited by a professional.
If people stopped subsidising damaging behaviour then these people would probably have to start thinking seriously about taking charge of their own life, rather than living as parasites on societies underbelly.0 -
Look, I know you think that you and this girl have some kind of connection. Maybe you think it'll have a Hollywood ending and she'll go on to star in her own angela's ashes style biopic. But I think the Corinthian had it pretty nailed down when he said you speak about her in amorous terms. Were she a 70 year old man with buck teeth and a scar on his face I really don't think you'd care as much or buy him any chocolate.
Homelessness is a bigger problem than just one person, buying a dairy milk bar for somebody who has a made a choice to be where they are is helping nobody, and certainly not helping her. She has an income source and is technically not even homeless as she has access to shelter. She is seeking somebody to finance her drug addiction. As I said before, you've been exploited by a professional.
If people stopped subsidising damaging behaviour then these people would probably have to start thinking seriously about taking charge of their own life, rather than living as parasites on societies underbelly.
Why do you feel the need to focus on me when the thread is clearly about A (yes one in particular) homeless girl?
I don't know where all these assumptions are coming from but you're wrong on every one. I have helped lots of old men with buck teeth. I speak kindly of this girl because she is really nice. I've had several conversations with her now and she's a lovely person.
You don't know what her storey is so why are you so invested in telling me what I do won't help her? It's baffling...0 -
Anyway, this thread is starting to feel like a black hole full of robots. If I wanted the 'blurb' on homelessness I'd just watch rte..0
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Anyway, this thread is starting to feel like a black hole full of robots. If I wanted the 'blurb' on homelessness I'd just watch rte..
If you didn't want to discuss homelessness, why did you create a thread about it? I'm telling you why I think its wrong to focus on individuals like this, if I'm wrong I'd be happy to hear why. I'm wrong about lots of things! You're taking it too personally.0 -
That's making so many assumptions about her and why she is homeless (and about her character/motives), that it generalizes quite a lot and can't be justified at all really.Look, I know you think that you and this girl have some kind of connection. Maybe you think it'll have a Hollywood ending and she'll go on to star in her own angela's ashes style biopic. But I think the Corinthian had it pretty nailed down when he said you speak about her in amorous terms. Were she a 70 year old man with buck teeth and a scar on his face I really don't think you'd care as much or buy him any chocolate.
Homelessness is a bigger problem than just one person, buying a dairy milk bar for somebody who has a made a choice to be where they are is helping nobody, and certainly not helping her. She has an income source and is technically not even homeless as she has access to shelter. She is seeking somebody to finance her drug addiction. As I said before, you've been exploited by a professional.
If people stopped subsidising damaging behaviour then these people would probably have to start thinking seriously about taking charge of their own life, rather than living as parasites on societies underbelly.
Again also, you are ignoring what I mentioned before, of the potential for severely limited choices that these people may have.
Particularly, I don't understand at all why you think it is wrong to try and make some connection with her either; it kind of reinforces the idea that you see her in dehumanizing terms, that she is parasite who even social interaction is beyond (and why exactly can some social interaction, even if minor, not potentially lead to help for her? you don't know anything about her, and you won't unless you talk to her).
If homeless people, even addicts (which I'm not assuming in this case), are isolated even from socializing and small acts of kindness like from lolo62, then that actively harms them through social isolation; with the attitude you promote, you are not helping them, or even being neutral and avoiding harm to them, you are promoting attitudes that harm them and which would lead to their greater social isolation, which would have a greater chance of worsening any drug problems.
If you view someone (anyone) in dehumanizing terms like that, that betrays a significant problem in your own views, both towards homeless people (in the speed with which you jump to conclusions), and especially to people who are addicted to drugs.
Also, that you think people would not help a buck-tooth 70 year old guy, but would help a more 'innocent' homeless girl, is a projection from you onto other people, which reveals a somewhat judgmental attitude.
Do you not see how all of the various assumptions you are throwing around here, are both unfounded and potentially offensive?
In fairness, you are making this personal with lolo62, in your sweeping assumptions about the motives used for helping this homeless person (and your speculative assumptions about why others, 70 year old buck-tooths, would not be helped); that seems very presumptions/offensive really (with a hint of disparagement), even from my viewpoint, with none of it being directed at me.0 -
KyussBishop wrote: »That's making so many assumptions about her and why she is homeless (and about her character/motives), that it generalizes quite a lot and can't be justified at all really.
Again also, you are ignoring what I mentioned before, of the potential for severely limited choices that these people may have.
I'm taking my 'assumptions' from the character portrait she gave in the previous page. She basically said that she thought she was doing hard drugs. I'm pretty sure I know the girl she is talking about as well, I've seen the whole act dozens of times. I used to walk past her every day on the way home from work, I think she has changed her location or something.Particularly, I don't understand at all why you think it is wrong to try and make some connection with her either; it kind of reinforces the idea that you see her in dehumanizing terms, that she is parasite who even social interaction is beyond (and why exactly can some social interaction, even if minor, not potentially lead to help for her? you don't know anything about her, and you won't unless you talk to her).
I don't think its wrong to engage these people or her in particular, but I think the OP is being exploited by a conniving and manipulative person. Especially when she gives her stuff. For example, she mentioned at one point that her face 'lit up' when she stopped to talk to her one day. Now, I'm no Einstein, but I know enough about manipulative people to understand that the only reason she had this reaction was because she thought she was going to get something. She is the dictionary definition of a parasite, I can't help if you disagree with the fundamental meaning of words.
I don't dehumanise homeless people, I 'dehumanise' (Which, to be honest, is the kind of irritating and basically meaningless word I picture a first year psychology student use with such reckless abandon, but whatever) the parasites who give the down and out a bad name. Read 'Down and Out in Paris and London' by George Orwell, that should give you an insight into the lives of the utterly poor and what they do all day. Very few of them 'beg' in the traditional sense because very few of them are exploitative parasites. So if I'm dehumanising anybody, its the con artists we see on a regular basis in Dublin city center, the ones who beg aggressively. The ones we don't talk about, the ones who form the vast majority, do not use the thoroughly despicable tactics of the con artists. They are the ones, the silent majority, who deserve the sympathy.If homeless people, even addicts (which I'm not assuming in this case), are isolated even from socializing and small acts of kindness like from lolo62, then that actively harms them through social isolation; with the attitude you promote, you are not helping them, or even being neutral and avoiding harm to them, you are promoting attitudes that harm them and which would lead to their greater social isolation, which would have a greater chance of worsening any drug problems.
Honestly, I probably thought the same way when I was like 15, but if you really believe what you've typed above, then you have literally no understanding of the modern world. Exploitation is the name of the game and is practised just as much on the street as it is in boardrooms. Sure, maybe there is somebody who can be 'saved' by random acts of kindness but the vast majority couldn't give a ****, they won't even remember your face unless they think there is something in it for them.If you view someone (anyone) in dehumanizing terms like that, that betrays a significant problem in your own views, both towards homeless people (in the speed with which you jump to conclusions), and especially to people who are addicted to drugs.
As I've already said, I've drawn my conclusions from the OPs character portrait and from my own experiences. Stop throwing that dehumanising word around, this isn't a fourth year CSPE class.Also, that you think people would not help a buck-tooth 70 year old guy, but would help a more 'innocent' homeless girl, is a projection from you onto other people, which reveals a somewhat judgmental attitude.
The semi-romantic language used by the OP is what has led me to that opinion.
In short, I don't think there is little doubt that for the vast majority of people, it is the photogenic younger 'victim' who has the most appeal. Deny this and you deny reality.0 -
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Because your personal feelings do appear to have very much shaped your views and they appear completely focused on her.Why do you feel the need to focus on me when the thread is clearly about A (yes one in particular) homeless girl?
Indeed, when I read what you wrote, and continue to write, of her, it was pretty obvious that there is some sort of crush going on. Of course this is entirely your business - up until you then extrapolate that subjective position and sell it as an objective one to others.
Then such conflicts of interest are fair game, I'm afraid.
If you want a discussion, be prepared that people may not share your views. If you just want validation go somewhere else, where you can be sure of receiving it.Anyway, this thread is starting to feel like a black hole full of robots. If I wanted the 'blurb' on homelessness I'd just watch rte..0
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