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Ayn Rand's objectivism and laissez-faire capitalism

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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,718 ✭✭✭The Mad Hatter


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    Quoting The Beatles to support Ayn Rand - that's a new one! And it's worth noting that Lindgren remained a member of the Social Democrat party all her life, in spite of her briefly absurd tax rate. I don't think many people here would argue that George Harrison or Astrid Lindgren were paying too little tax in those instances.

    Though for what it's worth, my favourite quote on this subject was Orson Welles' quip, when told by a couple of henchmen of Joseph McCarthy that a communist was someone who gave all their money to the government: "Then I'm 86% communist! But the rest of me is all capitalist!"
    The eager Rand-bashing in this particular forum always surprises me — because quite apart from her political views, Rand was an ardent proponent of rigorously rational thought (hardly a hallmark of insanity, we should note) and a committed adversary of supernaturalism and religion in all their forms. She perceived that churches, just like states, used their allegedly God-derived authority to make people submit to a diminished life of self-sacrifice and self-denial, all in the interest of some so-called "morality" or "greater good." She argued fiercely for the primacy of individual intellect and free choice over all of the above, rejecting the inherent authority of priest and bureaucrat alike. One would think atheists, of all people, might find something there worth celebrating!

    I think the reaction against Randian ideas here is partly due to a distaste here for any kind of extremism, left or right. And I think it's disingenuous to say that because she was opposed to religion we should find other points of agreement, or indeed that because she promoted rationality that she was rational herself.

    For me personally, I think that even if Rand's ideas hold up economically (I'm not convinced that they do, nor am I convinced that they don't), that alone doesn't necessarily justify them; while they may make it easier for small businesses, it seems to me that it would also make it easier for large businesses to control politics and propaganda. We have already seen what powerful corporations and corporate groups can do to control and manipulate information and, frankly, spread lies and misinformation for the sake of protecting themselves. The PR groups and lobbies of the tobacco industry, for instance, for years suppressed and denied the adverse effect that smoking has on health; likewise the fossil fuel industry, using many of the same PR groups and lobbyists, is now actively trying to suppress and discredit climate science. To an extent, that's fair because those companies are working for themselves, but if this is how they behave under relatively restrictive regulation, how are we to believe that under less or no regulation we would benefit?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,771 ✭✭✭Mark Hamill


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    I am not going to deny that the public sector has protected its lifestyle to the detriment of every one else (and itself, in the long run), but the notion that a society of freely interacting individuals would end up better is ludicrous.
    We wouldn't be in a recession in the first place if it wasn't for unregulated banking. People in power will always try to protect that power, be they high paid civil servants deflecting the effects of recession onto everyone else or high paid CEOs deflecting the effects of a company liquidation onto its lower paid staff. Lots of till workers lost their jobs in Irish banks, not so many CEOs.

    The scale of those protecting themselves to the detriment of everyone and the delay between cause and effect may be different, but the effect is the same on the common man. If something happens to an economy, then those in power (either through election or free interaction of individuals) will climb over everyone else to ensure their lifestyles. Thats because people, all people, are irrational and stupid and threatened. We need to combat this, and a start would be getting rid of schools with vested interests beyond making students as productive as possible in whatever they do.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,771 ✭✭✭Mark Hamill


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    The answer is to close the loopholes, not abandon the whole net that the loophole exists in. Loopholes are bad because of what they let in, so to speak. Removing the net lets everything in. Big businesses spend billions on lobbying so they can get away with doing the things they would do if no net existed in the firstplace.
    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    Good for her, reality disagrees (what with the existence of billion dollar lobby groups and all).


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,718 ✭✭✭The Mad Hatter


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    You'll notice that I said Rand's ideas are extreme, not that she was an extremist.
    When we create an enormous, multilayered government to operate an unfathomably labyrinthine regulatory environment, does it come as any surprise when legislators create loopholes and benefits for corporations that bend their ears? Lobbying has become a multibillion-dollar international industry precisely because of the growth of large government.

    Again, this is disingenuous. The problem is not with the existence of lobbies and PR companies, but with what they campaign for. You're quite right that companies wouldn't need to campaign for lighter regulation, or to suppress scientific research, if those regulations didn't exist in the first place. My question was and remains: If this is how they behave under relatively restrictive regulation, how are we to believe that under less or no regulation we would benefit?


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  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    You'll notice that I said Rand's ideas are extreme, not that she was an extremist.



    Again, this is disingenuous. The problem is not with the existence of lobbies and PR companies, but with what they campaign for. You're quite right that companies wouldn't need to campaign for lighter regulation, or to suppress scientific research, if those regulations didn't exist in the first place. My question was and remains: If this is how they behave under relatively restrictive regulation, how are we to believe that under less or no regulation we would benefit?

    History shows us that light touch regulation doesn't work and lassiez faire policies are a recipe for exploitation.

    There is a reason government were forced to act and put a break on the so-called free market and that was because the vast majority of the population did not benefit - they became commodities to be exploited.

    Personally I have no doubt that were we to return to a lassiez faire system we would also return to the working/living conditions in which the majority existed the last time such a political philosophy held sway.


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,775 ✭✭✭✭Gbear


    It's always a pleasure to see O'n'W swoop in like an avenging angel, blasting fallacies left and right.:p
    We wouldn't be in a recession in the first place if it wasn't for unregulated banking. People in power will always try to protect that power, be they high paid civil servants deflecting the effects of recession onto everyone else or high paid CEOs deflecting the effects of a company liquidation onto its lower paid staff. Lots of till workers lost their jobs in Irish banks, not so many CEOs.

    I disagree with this assessment.
    If everyone in the country decided to bet all their money on a horse in the morning and lost, it would certainly be bad for the country but that doesn't mean that the government should step in.
    What's bankrupting the state is the bizarre wedding of socialism to capitalism - a failure in regulation at first and then deciding to bail out the banks that should've been allowed to fail like any ****ty company.

    We probably would've been better off if we either had stuck with a lack of regulation and simply let the banks go to the wall or if we had come from the other exterme and had an iron fist squeezing any risk out of the banking sector.
    We've ended up with none of the control of socialism and all of the aftermath of a failed gamble from capitalism.

    Either way, Ireland is not an example of laissez faire capitalism.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,403 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.
    That's the opposite of oldrnwisr's Poisoning the well that he mentioned above. What would it be? Sweetening the well? I don't know.

    Anyhow, Rand did rail against religion and supernaturalism, but that doesn't mean that anything else she said was right, or that she would receive any degree of automatic support here in A+A. And while she appears to have held rational thought in high regard, I've never once got the impression that she was actually very good at doing it. Rather the opposite really and perhaps that's why supporters here are thin on the ground.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,771 ✭✭✭Mark Hamill


    Gbear wrote: »
    If everyone in the country decided to bet all their money on a horse in the morning and lost, it would certainly be bad for the country but that doesn't mean that the government should step in.

    Why not?
    Gbear wrote: »
    We probably would've been better off if we either had stuck with a lack of regulation and simply let the banks go to the wall

    And what would have happened to peoples money in said banks?


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 13,018 ✭✭✭✭jank


    We wouldn't be in a recession in the first place if it wasn't for unregulated banking. .


    A popular fallacy it seems. If banking in Ireland is unregulated, why was there a state appointed banking regulator in the name of Patrick Neary from 2003 until 2010?


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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 13,018 ✭✭✭✭jank


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    History shows us that light touch regulation doesn't work and lassiez faire policies are a recipe for exploitation.

    Can you care to actually show us any proof of this? History is showing us right now how civilisations end up destroying themselves through debt, grand spending and taxes, see Rome for example.

    The Western world for its most part is totally indebted because of perks like government pensions, increments, welfare and so on. Even well managed countries like Germany will have to severly cut back on its spending on these items if its to remain solvent, nevermind places like France or Italy (gulp!)

    http://www.businessweek.com/news/2012-01-18/europe-s-39-trillion-pension-risk-grows-as-economy-falters.html

    http://worldcrunch.com/culture-society/raising-germany-s-retirement-age-still-won-t-avert-pension-time-bomb-/c3s5971/

    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    Personally I have no doubt that were we to return to a lassiez faire system we would also return to the working/living conditions in which the majority existed the last time such a political philosophy held sway.

    Ah, the classic Dickinson rebuttal. Didn't take long.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,537 ✭✭✭joseph brand


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    Why am I finding it hard to empathise with the Billionaire 'Sir' Paul McCartney?

    Exceptional individual talent. Since we're mentioning pop stars, I could produce a huge list of wealthy pop stars, and even some wealthy hip hop stars who deserve to pay high taxes, mostly due to how irritating their music is, but I'm probably wrong, since they have "exceptional individual talent".

    There's plenty of billionaires and millionaires with zero talent, who simply inherited their massive wealth. Sitting on fortunes which are matched only by their selfishness. The Koch brothers and that piggish mining woman in Austalia spring to mind.


    It's funny that you thought that Rand would be respected in the AnA forum. I was reminded of how Paul Ryan had to quickly backpedal, after promoting Rand, the atheist.
    He gave copies of Atlas Shrugged to his Capitol Hill staff as Christmas presents, (this act is not without a certain irony) and he often spoke of how much his life was influenced by her books:
    “[T]he reason I got involved in public service, by and large, if I had to credit one thinker, one person, it would be Ayn Rand" Paul Ryan.

    Decent, ignorant, god-fearing, scared christians were aghast at the thought of their beloved, poster-boy, professing his fanatical love of a devil worshipping atheist. Shock. Horror. How could he?

    Anyway, she's not really liked in here, and she's certainly not liked over there.


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,968 ✭✭✭✭bnt


    Why am I finding it hard to empathise with the Billionaire 'Sir' Paul McCartney?
    He wasn't a billionaire back in 1966 - far from it.

    I "like" the term that was used by some commentators during the recent US Elections: "Social Darwinism" - but not for the reasons you might think. It's an example of how labelling an idea can obscure its real meaning.

    For starters "Darwinism" is a misnomer, since Darwin was merely describing what was happening, not advocating it. He goes out of his way to say "we people are better than that". In Nature, when species are subjected to evolutionary pressures, what happens to the losers in the race? They die, and stop using resources, leaving more for the winners.

    However, if "Social Darwinism" was the rule, what would happen to the losers in that race? They wouldn't just go away, by laying down and dying. People en masse simply don't do that. Instead, people cling on and try to make the best of a bad situation. You can see this in some of the most deprived areas in the world, such as the slums of Mumbai or Sao Paolo. Advocates of "Social Darwinism" don't seem to factor in the resilience of the human spirit, though Darwin did.

    Can you imagine a world in which "losers" just "went away"? There would be no homeless people on the street, for starters. But what does it mean to "lose", in our complex social and economic world? Are you a "loser" if you lose your job? Should you then walk in to one of those Futurama "Suicide Booths" and end it all? That would leave employers struggling to find more people next time they need to expand their business. Just as the "capitalists" rely on roads and infrastructure, they also rely on a source of people who are both educated and available, and they can't provide that by themselves. Businesses focus on short-term profits, but people develop over a much longer time scale. :cool:

    Where some people get Atlas Shrugged wrong is that Rand was not advocating "Social Darwinism", as some of her recent Republican followers seemed to do e.g. Paul Ryan. There's an explicit theme running through the book, that the success of the "winners" does not come at the expense of the "losers" - that success is to the benefit of everyone in society. (Which is not to be confused with "trickle-down economics"!) Here's an extract from the (long) speech John Galt gives in Part III that goes in to this idea:
    The man at the top of the intellectual pyramid contributes the most to all those below him, but gets nothing except his material payment, receiving no intellectual bonus from others to add to the value of his time. The man at the bottom who, left to himself, would starve in his hopeless ineptitude, contributes nothing to those above him, but receives the bonus of all of their brains. Such is the nature of the 'competition' between the strong and the weak of the intellect. Such is the pattern of 'exploitation' for which you have damned the strong.

    Such was the service we had given you and were glad and willing to give. What did we ask in return?

    Nothing but freedom. We required that you leave us free to function—free to think and to work as we choose—free to take our own risks and to bear our own losses—free to earn our own profits and to make our own fortunes—free to gamble on your rationality, to submit our products to your judgment for the purpose of a voluntary trade, to rely on the objective value of our work and on your mind's ability to see it—free to count on your intelligence and honesty, and to deal with nothing but your mind. Such was the price we asked, which you chose to reject as too high.

    You decided to call it unfair that we, who had dragged you out of your hovels and provided you with modern apartments, with radios, movies and cars, should own our palaces and yachts—you decided that you had a right to your wages, but we had no right to our profits, that you did not want us to deal with your mind, but to deal, instead, with your gun. Our answer to that, was: 'May you be damned!' Our answer came true. You are.

    Rand uses one of the main characters in the book, Eddie Willers, to illustrate how someone who is not one of the "best and brightest" is still of crucial importance in making things happen. While his boss (Dagny) is running around the country, he's the guy back in the head office who keeps things running. What happens to him at the end is left deliberately ambiguous - I won't spoil it except to say that the reader ends up rooting for him and hoping for the best.
    Anyway, she's not really liked in here, and she's certainly not liked over there.
    I don't know if I "like" Ayn Rand, or Atlas Shrugged, but that's not the point ..! Even if I don't agree with all her ideas, I'm still glad that someone put them down in writing for us to examine.

    From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, ‘Look at that, you son of a bitch’.

    — Edgar Mitchell, Apollo 14 Astronaut



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    jank wrote: »
    Can you care to actually show us any proof of this? History is showing us right now how civilisations end up destroying themselves through debt, grand spending and taxes, see Rome for example.

    The Western world for its most part is totally indebted because of perks like government pensions, increments, welfare and so on. Even well managed countries like Germany will have to severly cut back on its spending on these items if its to remain solvent, nevermind places like France or Italy (gulp!)

    http://www.businessweek.com/news/2012-01-18/europe-s-39-trillion-pension-risk-grows-as-economy-falters.html

    http://worldcrunch.com/culture-society/raising-germany-s-retirement-age-still-won-t-avert-pension-time-bomb-/c3s5971/




    Ah, the classic Dickinson rebuttal. Didn't take long.

    Yeah- Dickens was making it all up and it wasn't based in reality at all but he was so persuasive that child labour laws were brought in out of needless sentimentality.




    That's why Rome fell was it? Really? Over extension played no part eh?

    Seriously Jank - read a decent history book.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,718 ✭✭✭The Mad Hatter


    Did jank just confuse Charles Dickens and Emily Dickinson?


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    Did jank just confuse Charles Dickens and Emily Dickinson?

    I think he meant that famous Victorian sentimentalist Roger Dickensian.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Politics Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 81,309 CMod ✭✭✭✭coffee_cake


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    Yeah- Dickens was making it all up and it wasn't based in reality at all but he was so persuasive that child labour laws were brought in out of needless sentimentality.

    I don't think "go read a history book" is a good backing for any claim, but in any case, this article might be of interest:

    http://mises.org/daily/2858


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 13,018 ✭✭✭✭jank


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    Yeah- Dickens was making it all up and it wasn't based in reality at all but he was so persuasive that child labour laws were brought in out of needless sentimentality.




    That's why Rome fell was it? Really? Over extension played no part eh?

    Seriously Jank - read a decent history book.

    Clearly you didn't read post 25 of this thread.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    bluewolf wrote: »
    I don't think "go read a history book" is a good backing for any claim, but in any case, this article might be of interest:

    http://mises.org/daily/2858

    Yes - it is when someone is disputing something occurred. :confused:

    There is ample evidence of the exploitation that was enabled by lack of governmental regulation of industry where profit and profit alone was the be all and end all.

    As I said - there was a reason governments eventually acted and a read of a history book is a good place to learn what those reasons were.

    Read the article - It deals with the US which is politically very different from the European models also the author is not exactly what one would describe as objective.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,856 ✭✭✭Valmont


    a friend's comment on facebook recently:
    friend's comment on facebook recently:

    Dear right-wing America. Ayn Rand died on welfare, of obsessive smoking caused, in part, by her inability to loved or be loved by another human being. Ayn Rand had no friends. Ayn Rand is what humanity looks like when it tries to live in the airless vacuum of selfishness. A cancer-riddled, friendless, childless woman, dying alone on the charity that she spent her life decrying for others. And if that isn't an absolute picture of the word failure, then I don't know what is.
    I think your friend has received some inaccurate information.

    Rand had many friends (Isabel Paterson for example) and was loved dearly by her husband Frank O'Connor. If you doubt this then I suggest reading Ayn Rand and The World She Made by Anne Heller which chronicles many of Rand's relationships from early life until her death.

    I don't understand the criticism of Rand for claiming back a small pittance through welfare payments of the large amount of tax she paid during her lifetime as a successful novelist. If someone steals a tenner from me but offers one pound back I'm going to take it; but that doesn't necessarily imply that I support theft. Were she receiving welfare in excess of what was taken from her then yes, this would be a valid criticism. But she didn't, so it isn't.

    It would be nice if we could have a debate based in reality for once; based on Rand as she was and by what she actually said.


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  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    jank wrote: »
    Clearly you didn't read post 25 of this thread.

    and what exactly leads you to that conclusion?


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 13,018 ✭✭✭✭jank


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    and what exactly leads you to that conclusion?

    By totally dismissing my original points, where I provided evidence to back them up. Instead I get a generic "read a history book" type reply.

    Are you ok with the level of debt western governments have accumulated? Should we continue to spend in the interest of fairness and equality?


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    jank wrote: »
    By totally dismissing my original points, where I provided evidence to back them up. Instead I get a generic "read a history book" type reply.

    Are you ok with the level of debt western governments have accumulated? Should we continue to spend in the interest of fairness and equality?

    You responded to my post re: lessons from history on lassez faire with comments on the current state of the European economy, I ignored those as they were not relevant to the point I made.

    If you wish to rebut my point re: exploitation when lassez faire was the dominant political philosophy I will deal with that. As I made no comment on the current economic situation I do not see the need for me to engage in a discussion on that just because you want me to.

    Do you deny what Dickens wrote was based on reality?


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 13,018 ✭✭✭✭jank


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    You responded to my post re: lessons from history on lassez faire with comments on the current state of the European economy, I ignored those as they were not relevant to the point I made.

    If you wish to rebut my point re: exploitation when lassez faire was the dominant political philosophy I will deal with that. As I made no comment on the current economic situation I do not see the need for me to engage in a discussion on that just because you want me to.

    Do you deny what Dickens wrote was based on reality?

    Fair enough, if you can't engage in a simple discussion of the topic on hand I will leave it like that as you are more interested in generic mudslinging than a discussion of the actual ideas and economic philosophy.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 13,018 ✭✭✭✭jank


    Oh and to clarify my very first few words was asking for proof of your assertation which you still haven't even attempted to provide.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    jank wrote: »
    Oh and to clarify my very first few words was asking for proof of your assertation which you still haven't even attempted to provide.

    Your very first words were about Rome - you were the only one to mention Rome so as I made no assertion on topic there is nothing I need to provide evidence for.

    You then went off on a tangent as far as my post (the one you were responding to) by introducing current affairs and are now sulking because I didn't engage with that tangent.

    Then you said something about Emily Dickenson.

    But if you require proof of exploitation and what legislation was brought in to try and protect children, here you go:
    The successful exploitation of child labour was vital to Britain's economic success in the 19th century. In 1821, approximately 49% of the workforce was under 20. In rural areas, children as young as five or six joined women in 'agricultural gangs' that worked in fields often a long way from their homes. Although a law against the employment of children as chimney sweeps was passed as early as 1788, young people - because of their size and agility - were still used in this role for much of the 19th century.
    Changes came in 1833 when the Factory Act was passed. The Act not only created the post of factory inspector, but also made it illegal for textile factories to employ children less than 9 years of age. The Act came at a time when reformers like Richard Oastler were publicising the terrible working conditions of children, comparing the plight of child labourers to that of slaves. The timing was significant: slavery was abolished in the British empire in 1833-4.
    Further legislation limiting child labour in factories was introduced in 1844, 1847, 1850, 1853 and 1867. After 1867 no factory or workshop could employ any child under the age of 8, and employees aged between 8 and 13 were to receive at least 10 hours of education per week. But such legislation was not foolproof. Inspectors often found it difficult to discover the exact age of young people employed in factories, and reports showed that factory owners did not always provide the hours set aside by law for education.

    Although a law against the employment of children as chimney sweeps was passed as early as 1788, young people - because of their size and agility - were still used in this role for much of the 19th century. 1818, William Cooper (himself a chimney sweep) tells how 'climbing boys' were tricked or forced, through beatings, to clean chimneys. This was a long-standing social problem, constantly highlighted by campaigners. It was not until 1875 that the veteran reformer Lord Shaftesbury, in an effort to improve safety, managed to introduce an Act compelling all sweeps to register with the police.
    3qh2-12a_r3_c1.jpg

    This is a copy of a letter to William Woods & Son of Wigan - the owners of the factory where Martha Appleton's accident ( As a 13-year-old textile worker in Wigan, Martha was employed as a 'scavenger', picking up loose cotton from beneath machinery. On one particular day, Martha fainted and caught her left hand in an unguarded machine. In the accident, all her fingers were severed. Martha lost her job because she was no longer able to work efficiently) occurred - from Robert Baker, the Inspector of Factories to whom the report on her accident was sent. The inspector somewhat mildly admonishes the factory owners for failing to 'box off' the wheels that injured Martha, and states that they could have been boxed off 'without detriment to the working of the machine'. Although he clearly wants to see a settlement that is equitable to both Martha and her employers, he also seems anxious not to encourage too high a level of compensation.
    appletonho45-6753b_r1_c1.jpg

    http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/pathways/citizenship/struggle_democracy/childlabour.htm

    Do you dispute these things happened under a lassez faire political system?

    Do you seriously believe they would not happen again if legislated protections are repealed?


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Politics Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 81,309 CMod ✭✭✭✭coffee_cake


    So you've just posted that these things happened (whether they are bad or not we'll leave to another post) despite being illegal - how is that an argument for regulation? It just shows it was ineffective. It certainly can't be held up as an argument of things that would happen without regulation.

    Compare that to the article I posted indicating that there was already a cultural shift away from it before any legislation was introduced, and I think we have the answer to "what would have happened without this legislation", legislation which was at best ineffective by the looks of it
    As you see from the reference quoted in the article, 6.5% of boys in the us were employed in 1930, and most of those in agriculture. That's compared to 32.5% in the 19thC.
    It seems there is a problem here of assigning all credit to regulation - when it was happening anyway.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,399 ✭✭✭ush


    Valmont wrote: »
    It would be nice if we could have a debate based in reality for once; based on Rand as she was and by what she actually said.

    As she was? Ok then. She was an amphetamine junkie. Between the uppers and downers, she lacked empathy and developed an autistic way of looking at life. Neoliberalism, and all that Ayn Rand jazz, is just the result of the mind of a speed junkie. Classic symptoms. Self-centred, manic, lack of empathy, paranoid = Neoliberalism.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    bluewolf wrote: »
    So you've just posted that these things happened (whether they are bad or not we'll leave to another post) despite being illegal - how is that an argument for regulation? It just shows it was ineffective.

    No bluewolf, I didn't and you know it.

    I posted proof that child protection measures were brought as it was felt this was necessary to protect children from exploitation. It obviously, eventually, worked as we no longer have 5/6 year olds working in agricultural gangs, we do not have 8 year olds working in factories (at least not in Europe) and factory are required to have safe working conditions.

    Failure to enforce the regulations is not an argument against regulation. If anything it is an argument for the need to regulate the regulators.

    The very fact that these thing were not just bad, but to my way of thinking immoral, is the very crux of my objection to laissez faire and not a point to be dismissed. Lack of legal protection allowed these abuses to occur - can you give me a reasonable argument for why, should such legal protections be repealed, such abuse will not occur again?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,856 ✭✭✭Valmont


    ush wrote: »
    As she was? Ok then. She was an amphetamine junkie. Between the uppers and downers, she lacked empathy and developed an autistic way of looking at life. Neoliberalism, and all that Ayn Rand jazz, is just the result of the mind of a speed junkie. Classic symptoms. Self-centred, manic, lack of empathy, paranoid = Neoliberalism.
    I rest my case!


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