Northern Protestants.

Bertie Woot

We all know that they have a reputation for being fiercely British, unapologetically Unionist, and resolutely loyal to the British Queen. The recent flag protests demonstrated that far from coming around to the idea of a united Ireland, most Unionists seem to be just as rejecting of the concept of Irish unification now as they were 40 years ago, and the old sectarian bigotry has once again reared its ugly head.

Despite the overwhelming majority of Northern Protestants still being Unionist, do you think that there are many, or indeed any who are in favour of a united Ireland? I understand that IRA violence has made it very difficult for Unionists to even consider Irish unification, but is unification not their destiny?

p1akuw47h5r3it

Bertie Woot wrote: »

We all know that they have a reputation for being fiercely British, unapologetically Unionist, and resolutely loyal to the British Queen. The recent flag protests demonstrated that far from coming around to the idea of a united Ireland, most Unionists seem to be just as rejecting of the concept of Irish unification now as they were 40 years ago, and the old sectarian bigotry has once again manifested its ugly head.

Despite the overwhelming majority of Northern Protestants still being Unionist, do you think that there are many, or indeed any who are in favour of a united Ireland? I understand that IRA violence has made it very difficult for Unionists to even consider Irish unification, but is unification not their destiny?

No. Tbh I'd say that the majority of people in N.I. would rather keep things the way they are rather then do anything which might cause certain people to begin a new "war" or terrorist campaign i.e. Unite Ireland

Madam

DanDan6592 wrote: »

No. Tbh I'd say that the majority of people in N.I. would rather keep things the way they are rather then do anything which might cause certain people to begin a new "war" or terrorist campaign i.e. Unite Ireland

God forbid could you imagine what the loyalists would do if a United Ireland became remotely possible.

Bertie Woot

DanDan6592 wrote: »

No. Tbh I'd say that the majority of people in N.I. would rather keep things the way they are rather then do anything which might cause certain people to begin a new "war" or terrorist campaign i.e. Unite Ireland

But more violence is likely anyhow, as under the terms of the Good Friday Agreement, when 51% of the people vote in favour of unification in a referendum, then a united Ireland shall come about. Unionists shall no doubt reject the democratic will of the people and launch a terrorist to provoke Republicans back into a war situation to destroy any realistic hope of reunification.

Madam wrote: »

God forbid could you imagine what the loyalists would do if a United Ireland became remotely possible.

See above. They'd go bananas, but democracy is democracy, and even though Loyalists shall continue to reject a united Ireland, it's going to happen some day, with or without their consent. We just need the numbers in the north.

p1akuw47h5r3it

Bertie Woot wrote: »

But more violence is likely anyhow, as under the terms of the Good Friday Agreement, when 51% of the people vote in favour of unification in a referendum, then a united Ireland shall come about. Unionists shall no doubt reject the democratic will of the people and launch a terrorist to provoke Republicans back into a war situation to destroy any realistic hope of reunification.



See above. They'd go bananas, but democracy is democracy, and even though Loyalists shall continue to reject a united Ireland, it's going to happen some day, with or without their consent. We just need the numbers in the north.

Afaik people in the Republic have to vote for it aswell. Personally I don't think it will pass either side of the border. When a serious discussion is had in the Republic and the romantic notion of a United Ireland is really put under pressure I feel people will not think it's worth it. The sheer cost of it should put anyone off imo!

Bertie Woot

DanDan6592 wrote: »

Afaik people in the Republic have to vote for it aswell. Personally I don't think it will pass either side of the border. When a serious discussion is had in the Republic and the romantic notion of a United Ireland is really put under pressure I feel people will not think it's worth it. The sheer cost of it should put anyone off imo!

Ah, the old economic argument. It may cost us more that just money, it shall no doubt be a huge pain in the arse to have a million or more Brits in the country who don't want to be part of the country, but sure if they don't like it they can always return to Scotland And England where their ancestors came from.

old hippy

Henry Lee. wrote: »

The Protestant people of Ulster actually take pride in their culture and heritage and would never give it up.

A lot of southern Protestants wouldn't want them as part of the ROI.

Madam

Henry Lee. wrote: »

Southern Protestants come from the same background. So you are talking about the same people.

I'd agree with that but one thing they are not is British;)

Bertie Woot

Madam wrote: »

I'd agree with that but one thing they are not is British;)

But like the Northern Protestants, they are descended from British colonial settlers, and thus share a common ancestry.

newmug

Bertie Woot wrote: »

But like the Northern Protestants, they are descended from British colonial settlers, and thus share a common ancestry.

We all share a common ancestry. We all came out of Africa, we're all white and live in NorthWestern Europe, and specifically among Ireland, Scotland and Wales, we're 99% Gaelic. You could make that 70% Gaelic if you want to include England and Northern France. Thats the irony of it all, thats what makes it bigotry, not tribalism.

blatantrereg

But like the Northern Protestants, they are descended from British colonial settlers, and thus share a common ancestry.

Ulster protestants are descended from Scottish settlers. Southern protestants from English and even French. Think most of my ancestry is French if you go back far enough - the king-slaying invaders rather than the ones fleeing religious persecution.... Maybe I should try to get people together for a victory march through London some time, celebrating the Battle of Hastings . And dress up in berets and hooped sweaters and sh!t. That would be good satire I think.

But yeah I've no common ancestry with Ulster protestants. Most southern protestants who do share ancestry there probably migrated down from the north at some point in their family tree.

junder

newmug wrote: »

We all share a common ancestry. We all came out of Africa, we're all white and live in NorthWestern Europe, and specifically among Ireland, Scotland and Wales, we're 99% Gaelic. You could make that 70% Gaelic if you want to include England and Northern France. Thats the irony of it all, thats what makes it bigotry, not tribalism.

99% Gaelic, how did you work that out. And as for 51% such a figure is mentioned no where in the GFA, the decision to hold a referendum rests solely with the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland and is not dependent on some magical number. He/she will call one only if he/she feels it will be successful and beneficial for all party's involved

Chuck Stone

Madam wrote: »

God forbid could you imagine what the loyalists would do if a United Ireland became remotely possible.

They'd have no popular support and wouldn't be much of a threat to the state unless the British supported them (unlikely seeing as they'd probably like to be rid of them). Loyalists killers were never very sophisticated. Also, to what ends would loyalists be agitating for if a UI were to come about? Loyalist cantons?

Bertie Woot wrote: »

The recent flag protests demonstrated that far from coming around to the idea of a united Ireland, most Unionists seem to be just as rejecting of the concept of Irish unification now as they were 40 years ago,

The actions of the fleg protesters were those of a increasingly insignificant fringe element.

p1akuw47h5r3it

Bertie Woot wrote: »

Ah, the old economic argument. It may cost us more that just money, it shall no doubt be a huge pain in the arse to have a million or more Brits in the country who don't want to be part of the country, but sure if they don't like it they can always return to Scotland And England where their ancestors came from.

Might be old but is still true. Thankfully this United Ireland at any cost sort of attitude is dying out. I'm not going to vote to take on a huge financial burden just so that we can all give the Queen and the Orange Order the two fingers.

maccored

I think theres a difference between northern protestants, unionists and flag complaining loyalists. They arent all the one thing.

dienbienphu

I think the whole all Northern Protestants are Unionists is a ridiculous generalization. At the height of the troubles, the leader of the INLA, Ronald Bunting, was a Protestant. I'm sure if there were Protestant republicans during the worse years of the troubles there are far more now.

Billy Leonard, former RUC officer now Sinn Fein councillor.

Believe it or not, the Shankill Road had its very own IRA unit back in the 40s.

The sectarian mindset suits the British because it breeds contempt between both communities.

maccored

i grew up with quite a few northern protestants who werent unionist, and certainly not loyalist.

Bertie Woot

newmug wrote: »

We all share a common ancestry. We all came out of Africa, we're all white and live in NorthWestern Europe, and specifically among Ireland, Scotland and Wales, we're 99% Gaelic. You could make that 70% Gaelic if you want to include England and Northern France. Thats the irony of it all, thats what makes it bigotry, not tribalism.

There must be a very fine line between bigotry and tribalism. I'm not certain about the 99% Gaelic estimate, as although many of the northerners are descended from the Scots who are descended from the Irish, many are also descended from the English who were descended from Anglo-Saxons, Normans and Norwegians (Norse Vikings). I think the Norse Viking gene has played a dominant role in their predilection to invade and colonise other peoples countries. Now that the British empire is dead and the occupied 6 counties are the last remnant of British rule in Ireland, it is only a matter of time before we reunify, and under 32 country independence from Britain. Northern Protestants could be part of the new Ireland and play a significant role in political life, instead of fighting against their destiny.

junder wrote: »

99% Gaelic, how did you work that out. And as for 51% such a figure is mentioned no where in the GFA, the decision to hold a referendum rests solely with the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland and is not dependent on some magical number. He/she will call one only if he/she feels it will be successful and beneficial for all party's involved

For a united Ireland to come about a referendum must obtain a majority vote in favour of reunification. That is where the 51% came from. I could have just easily said 50.03%, but I'm assuming they want to do this by whole numbers. Sinn Fein in the north have recently called for a border poll, and the DUP have stated that they are up for it, as they rare certain that a majority shall vote to sustain the union. If a referendum goes ahead it shall be interesting to see how many are Catholics are in favour of a UI. After more that 800 years of British involvement in the country, this is an opportunity for Nationalists in the North to assert their right to Irish national self determination.

Chuck Stone wrote: »

They'd have no popular support and wouldn't be much of a threat to the state unless the British supported them (unlikely seeing as they'd probably like to be rid of them). Loyalists killers were never very sophisticated. Also, to what ends would loyalists be agitating for if a UI were to come about? Loyalist cantons?

I think most Unionist/Loyalist people would head for the ferry terminals and airports and flee the country. All this talk about a million hostile Protestants entering the Republic and causing havoc is a nonsense. Most Unionists would get out of Ireland as soon as the referendum results in favour of unification were made known. They'd be off like two men and a young fella.

The actions of the fleg protesters were those of a increasingly insignificant fringe element.

They don't see themselves as a "fringe element". Even though Unionist politicians have condemned the flag protesters, the protesters see themselves as the northern Protestant-Unionist majority, and defenders of their union with Britain.

DanDan6592 wrote: »

Might be old but is still true. Thankfully this United Ireland at any cost sort of attitude is dying out. I'm not going to vote to take on a huge financial burden just so that we can all give the Queen and the Orange Order the two fingers.

But that's the type of attitude that Northerners want and welcome. They love to hear of Irishmen abandoning their national aspiration because Southerners feel that unification shall cost too much. That's just like saying "Go ahead Britain, you are welcome to the 6 counties".

maccored wrote: »

I think theres a difference between northern protestants, unionists and flag complaining loyalists. They arent all the one thing.

Really? Protestants are by and large Unionists, and Unionism is just a synonymous term for Loyalism. The only difference I noticed was that Unionists tended to be the middle class Protestants, whilst Loyalists were mostly representative of the working class element of Unionism. And they all wave flags. They love it!

COYW

maccored wrote: »

i grew up with quite a few northern protestants who werent unionist, and certainly not loyalist.

Correct maccored and I really don't understand why all these threads about Protestantism have popped up on this forum recently. Last weekend there was that nonsense thread about how Protestants vote in the south, which seemed to fade out when it became clear that we base our votes on the same criteria as anyone else, i.e. policy. OP seems to think that northern Protestants are Unionist, Loyalist and members of the Orange Order, which is incorrect. The notion that they are all going to head for the airports and ferry ports if a UI ever came about is hilarious, infantile in fact.

Bertie Woot wrote: »

Now that the British empire is dead and the occupied 6 counties are the last remnant of British rule in Ireland, it is only a matter of time before we reunify, and under 32 country independence from Britain. Northern Protestants could be part of the new Ireland and play a significant role in political life, instead of fighting against their destiny.

I'm really sorry to tell you this but you are ridiculously out of touch with the majority of people in NI, across both communities and a huge majority of people in this country. Look at the poll taken on this subject on Spotlight last week. Why can't a subsection of nationalist/republicans in NI accept that NI is destined to remain as part of the UK? Unionists destiny is a UI, lol.

Bertie Woot

COYW wrote: »

Anyway, OP seems to think that all Protestants north of the border are Unionist, Loyalist and members of the Orange Order, which is incorrect. The notion that they are all going to head for the airports and ferry ports if a UI ever came about is hilarious.

Do you think so? Have you ever lived in the North? Know many Unionists, do you? I have and do, and I know that Protestants in NI are terrified of a united Ireland. They fear it more than anything. In fact, opposition to Irish unification lies at the very heart of Ulster Unionism.

How are you going to reassure Northern Unionist Protestants that what happened to Catholic Nationalists in the north (discrimination and persecution) is not going to happen to them in a 32 country Irish Republic?

Bertie Woot

COYW wrote: »

I'm really sorry to tell you that but I think you may be stuck in a time warp or you are ridiculously out of touch with the majority of people in NI, across both communities and certain a huge majority of people in this country.

Just because you have abandoned the Republican aspiration to Irish unification doesn't mean that everyone else has.

Bertie Woot

dienbienphu wrote: »

I think the whole all Northern Protestants are Unionists is a ridiculous generalization. At the height of the troubles, the leader of the INLA, Ronald Bunting, was a Protestant. I'm sure if there were Protestant republicans during the worse years of the troubles there are far more now.

Billy Leonard, former RUC officer now Sinn Fein councillor.

Believe it or not, the Shankill Road had its very own IRA unit back in the 40s.

The sectarian mindset suits the British because it breeds contempt between both communities.

Protestant Irish Nationalists:

Wolfe Tone, Thomas Russell, Henry Joy McCracken, William Orr, Lord Edward Fitzgerald, the brothers Sheares, Archibald Hamilton Rowan, Valentine Lawless, James Napper Tandy, William Aylmer, Joseph Holt, Robert Emmet, Thomas Addis, Thomas Davis, John Mitchel, William Smith O'Brien, Sir John Gray, James Haughton, Isaac Butt, William Shaw, Charles Stewart Parnell, Sir John Gray, Stephen Gwynn, Henry Harrison, Jeremiah Jordan, William McDonald, J. G. Swift MacNeill, James Maguire, Pierce Charles de Lacy O'Mahony, Isaac Nelson, John Pinkerton, Horace Plunkett, Samuel Young, Jack Beattie, Sam Kyle, William McMullen, James Baird, John Hanna, Victor Halley, William Wilde, Whitley Stokes, Standish James O'Grady, Samuel Ferguson, Horace Plunkett, WB Yeats, Lady Gregory, Sean O'Casey, JM Synge, Sam Maguire, Bulmer Hobson, Constance Markievicz, Roger Casement, Erskine Childers, Jack White, Conor O'Brien, Alice Stopford Green, Darrell Figgis, Thomas Myles, James Meredith, Robert Barton, Ernest Blythe, Seán Lester, Douglas Hyde, John Graham, George Gilmore, George Plant, Ronnie Bunting, John Turnley, David Russell, Ivan Cooper, Billy Leonard, Martin Mansergh ..

Protestant Irish nationalists - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

COYW

Bertie Woot wrote: »

Do you think so? Have you ever lived in the North? Know many Unionists, do you? I have and do, and I know that Protestants in NI are terrified of a united Ireland. They fear it more than anything. In fact, opposition to Irish unification lies at the very heart of Ulster Unionism.

I know plenty of unionists and I doubt that any fear a UI. In fact, a UI as part of the UK would be very appealing to them. They have always felt that their interests and the interests of Ireland as whole would be best served by membership of the UK.

Bertie Woot wrote: »

Just because you have abandoned the Republican aspiration to Irish unification doesn't mean that everyone else has.

I am not a republican and I never have had any aspirations for unification and I never will, so I abandoned nothing.

delthedriver

United Ireland, no thanks.
The economic argument is a good enough reason not to unite a 32 County Ireland. We can barely run 26 counties , never mind another 6
Sure ,the UK would love to offload NI from an economic point of view as it costs them billions to service the North.
Southern Protestants are of a completely different mind frame to Northern Protestants. Similarly Northern Catholics and Southern Catholics are poles apart in their thinking
Leave things as they are.

Chuck Stone

Bertie Woot wrote: »

I think most Unionist/Loyalist people would head for the ferry terminals and airports and flee the country.

Step away from the Crystal Ball of Doom.

This island is their home too. The idea that the ferry ports would resemble the Dunkirk evacuation of WWII in the event of a UI is nonsense. Nationalists didn't flood out of the 6 counties when the sectarian statelet was created because it was their home. Unionists will not flood out of the north if a UI does come about because it's their home too.

Bertie Woot

COYW wrote: »

I know plenty of unionists and I doubt that any fear a UI. In fact, a UI as part of the UK would be very appealing to them. They have always felt that their interests and the interests of Ireland as whole would be best served by membership of the UK.

If Northern Ireland leaves the UK with unification, it's highly unlikely that an independent 32 county Republic would want to rekindle the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, as that was a relationship between these islands which existed when all of Ireland was under British rule.

I am not a republican and I never have had any aspirations for unification and I never will, so I abandoned nothing.

Well that's to your shame. Our forefathers gave their all for Irish independence, and partition of the island was carried out to simply appease Northern Unionists who were threatening war in 1912. We were united under British rule and we can be re-united again via complete independence from Britain.

The island should be one independent country and one state, not two.

Bertie Woot

delthedriver wrote: »

United Ireland, no thanks.
The economic argument is a good enough reason not to unite a 32 County Ireland. We can barely run 26 counties , never mind another 6
Sure ,the UK would love to offload NI from an economic point of view as it costs them billions to service the North.
Southern Protestants are of a completely different mind frame to Northern Protestants. Similarly Northern Catholics and Southern Catholics are poles apart in their thinking
Leave things as they are.

That's a very defeatist attitude. Never mind the economic costs of reunification, that's for the academics and the nerds, what about the romantic aspiration of the real Irish people?

Chuck Stone wrote: »

Step away from the Crystal Ball of Doom.

This island is their home too. The idea that the ferry ports would resemble the Dunkirk evacuation of WWII in the event of a UI is nonsense. Nationalists didn't flood out of the 6 counties when the sectarian statelet was created because it was their home. Unionists will not flood out of the north if a UI does come about because it's their home too.

It might be their home in the sense that they've been here since the Ulster plantation of the early 17th century, but they came here as invaders and colonists and they had no right to partition the island and create their own sectarian statelet where Irish Nationalist Catholics were subjected to a sustained program of institutionalised discrimination where they were denied jobs and housing and where the voting system was rigged to ensure Protestant dominance, control and supremacy.

ardmacha

They have always felt that their interests and the interests of Ireland as whole would be best served by membership of the UK.

They have singularly failed to articulate any concern for the interest of Ireland as a whole. One can make a case for all of Ireland to be in the UK, what you cannot legitimately when you fail to convince people of your argument is seize part of the country for yourself.

delthedriver

Bertie Woot wrote: »

That's a very defeatist attitude. Never mind the economic costs of reunification, that's for the academics and the nerds, what about the romantic aspiration of the real Irish people?



It might be their home in the sense that they've been here since the Ulster plantation of the early 17th century, but they came here as invaders and colonists and they had no right to partition the island and create their own sectarian statelet where Irish Nationalist Catholics were subjected to a sustained program of institutionalised discrimination where they were denied jobs and housing and where the voting system was rigged to ensure Protestant dominance, control and supremacy.

The romantic ideas of the real Irish people changed,when the economic bubble burst and the romancing of the Celtic Tiger turned ugly.
The romantic ideas have changed to harsh reality. No point in trying to sell romantic ideas of a united Ireland to real Irish people who are struggling to pay their mortgages and put food on their tables.
When Scotland leave the UK, the Chancellor will have even less revenue to support the six counties. Don't think real Irish people will want to be lumbered with financial strains of the Six counties. Guess we will be happy for the Uk to look after their own problems
United Ireland is for dreamers not real people!

Chuck Stone

Bertie Woot wrote: »

they came here as invaders...

Let it go bro... you'll be happier for it.

jugger0

I really hope that the unionists are removed from this island someday and sent home to their beloved Britain, the crown really made an absolute mess of this island by bringing them here.