Best harness for a dog who pulls?

SillyMangoX

Hi there, does anyone have any recommendations for harnesses for a chronic puller? I don't like the head collars or anything that ties around the neck as she coughs a lot when straining in the lead so I would prefer to take the pressure off her neck and I just don't trust head collars after bad experiences I've had. She's a large dog, golden retriever x rottie and is a bit over weight so would probably be looking at a larger size harness. Thanks in advance

carav10

SillyMangoX wrote: »

Hi there, does anyone have any recommendations for harnesses for a chronic puller? I don't like the head collars or anything that ties around the neck as she coughs a lot when straining in the lead so I would prefer to take the pressure off her neck and I just don't trust head collars after bad experiences I've had. She's a large dog, golden retriever x rottie and is a bit over weight so would probably be looking at a larger size harness. Thanks in advance

If she's pulling on lead, she'll pull on harness & probably worse as a harness almost encourages them to pull. You'd be far better spending time teaching her to walk properly on lead. Liver/hotdog in the hand & plenty heel work. Just needs a lot of time put into it with dedicated 'walk properly' sessions.

Can't recommend any as I wouldn't recommend one in this case anyway but if you really want to go ahead with it, one that has plenty soft padding & not some of those horrible strappy sharp edges yokes you see.

Ps. Have two pullers myself but I spend the first 2mins of each walk re-teaching them their manners & we can then set off. I use harnesses when running with them though because I want them to pull but not take the strain on their necks for obvious reasons.

Dtp79

Here's one I see daily in Laois.
They pull him all around town

SillyMangoX

I've been trying a lot with the whole walking nice training, she's doing well enough with it, if she pulls hard I stop walking and we don't move until the lead goes slack, lots of praise and off we go again, towards the end of the walk its fine as she's tired out and she will walk nicely by my side, but at the start she nearly has my arm ripped out! She's not the worst, my old terrier despite being less than half the size was way stronger, but I just feel I would have better control if I had a harness especially when walking past kids or crossing roads. She used to be walked on an ordinary harness as a pup but she's now off lead in the woods, not possible around the village though due to traffic.

dave1982

Have to agree they actually pull harder with a harness.

I've 2 pullers short tight rein is the only way I can stop the pulling after a minute they calm down,

carav10

SillyMangoX wrote: »

I've been trying a lot with the whole walking nice training, she's doing well enough with it, if she pulls hard I stop walking and we don't move until the lead goes slack, lots of praise and off we go again, towards the end of the walk its fine as she's tired out and she will walk nicely by my side, but at the start she nearly has my arm ripped out! She's not the worst, my old terrier despite being less than half the size was way stronger, but I just feel I would have better control if I had a harness especially when walking past kids or crossing roads. She used to be walked on an ordinary harness as a pup but she's now off lead in the woods, not possible around the village though due to traffic.

As soon as she pulls try switching directions very quickly, set her up again, as soon as she pulls switch directions. Say nothing. Eventually she'll realise it's easier to stay at your side as she won't know what you intend doing. It'll force her to pay more attention to you. Ok, so you look like an idiot for a while :-) but it can work.

SillyMangoX

Would it be best to just keep her on an ordinary harness then while keeping up with the training? I can't walk her on the collar anymore, I did it today as my uncle had the harness in his car and hearing her coughing so much was awful

andreac

Harnesses only encourage a dog to pull, hence why dogs that pull sleds have harnesses on. You get get special training aids that go around front of chest and apply pressure when they pull.
I would recommend a dogmatic head collar, they are great and I walk both my rotties with them. What's the bad experience you had with them?

Melion

I know you said no head collars but haltis really are amazing.

Whispered

A front connection harness does not encourage pulling, a back connection one would.

I have this one for Harley http://www.softouchconcepts.com/index.php/product-53/sense-ation-harness

SillyMangoX

Andreac I had a halti for my old jrt x staffie and she slipped out of it and ran straight out in front of a car, luckily she didn't get hit but I don't trust them ever since, and this dog is technically my uncles dog, so i couldn't risk anything happening to her! I might try a front connecting harness though, that sounds like the kind of thing I was looking for

Whispered

I found it works where head collars didn't, with my own dog and with others. I'd still recommend working on lead manners, but the harness gives you a lot more control while you're working on it.

SillyMangoX

Whispered wrote: »

I found it works where head collars didn't, with my own dog and with others. I'd still recommend working on lead manners, but the harness gives you a lot more control while you're working on it.

Yeah that's exactly what I need, I know it isn't all down to the harness but something that would give me better control over her without putting her trachea at risk would make it so much easier when it comes to lead manners.

fathead82

The front connecting harnesses are a great job,I know someone that has one on a jack russell & its the only thing that got him to stop pulling. They sell them in dog traning ireland in dublin.

The Sweeper

See if you can get either a Halti harness or a Gentle Leader easywalk harness.

As mentioned above, these are front clip harnesses designed to prevent your dog from pulling while you walk. They're very effective - you'll still have a boisterous dog who leads ahead of you until you do some leash work, but you won't have a dog on two back legs throttling itself with its own flat collar.

sparkle_23

I got an easy walk harness for my dog in Canada during the Summer. It's very like the one that whispered linked to, it connects at the front. Jake was a bit confused at first but he got used to it and I don't have my arm pulled out of its socket or him coughing for the first ten mins of every walk!

joolsveer

Whispered wrote: »

A front connection harness does not encourage pulling, a back connection one would.

I have this one for Harley http://www.softouchconcepts.com/index.php/product-53/sense-ation-harness

I have two dogs and I use these harnesses on them. As a result there is very little pulling. I got the harnesses at Dog Training Ireland. In the past I used a Halti on another dog but I think these are better.

bluecherry74

I have one of these for Jess - they come in three separate pieces so you can get a really good fit. You just need to make sure your order the front part that has the front attach D ring:

http://dog-games-shop.co.uk/perfect-fit-fleece-dog-harness

They're honestly the best harnesses I've ever had. Fantastic fit, comfy and can be used as a normal harness too. I just use the regular back attachment with Jess now as she no longer pulls. I also have the leads for both my dogs and they're really comfy to hold. They do a 2m one that you can buy a clip for to convert it into a double ended lead, which I'd recommend for using with the harness. Any double ended lead will do though.

None of the harnesses I tried worked with Henry so I use a Dogmatic with him and it works brilliantly. I can understand why people don't like them and they're probably not suitable for every dog, but you can use them with a double ended lead attached to a harness or collar for extra control and security.

DBB

+1 on the Perfect Fit harness with the front attachment, used with a double-ended lead. When they call them Perfect Fit, they mean it. I've never seen such a nicely made, nicely fitting, ultra comfy harness.
The only thing to watch out for with the bigger dogs is that there are two widths of strap on these harnesses, 20mm and 40mm. The 40mm is generally recommended for the big breeds. However, there is a large D-ring on the girth strap which sits between the front legs, and if your large dog is a narrow-chested build, whose front legs don't have much of a gap between them, as many German Shepherds are for instance, this D-ring will rub their inner elbows.
So if you're ordering this harness for a dog of this build, go for the 20mm strap rather than the 40mm, as the D-ring is smaller.
I'm not sure it'd be as effective as, say, an Easy Walk or Sense-Ible harness for really hard pullers, but certainly for a dog who takes a bit of a pull, these harnesses are the biz.
Collars are out for me from now on. Ok to use for putting an ID tag on, but potentially damaging to the trachea and spine if used as a control point for a lead. This damage is often low-level and insidious, only affecting older dogs after a lifetime of use, but even if it isn't necessarily life threatening, if it can be avoided, I'll avoid it!

boomerang

I'm the same myself, DBB. They only wear collars for their ID tags.

The harnesses from the dog games website are brill. I don't have the newer, front connection ones, but even the old style ones are great. No chafing or discomfort, and they go through the wash time after time after time.

I have tags on the harnesses too, so when we're walking they don't need collars.

Irish-Lass

Our rotties and got the freedom harness in Positive Dog Training in Sandyford - have to say they are fantastic and I LOVE the velvet that goes under the belly - could never walk the two rotties together cause of there power but the freedom harnesses mad it just so much easier had great fun walking the two of them till we lost one last year - gave the spare freedom harness to a friend who has a very energetic lab and she found it brillant as well - of course had to get the girls the only purple colour

BURT DUB

softtouch harnesses are the best. the only retailer I know in Dublin is Dog Training Ireland in Blanchardstown

DBB

BURT DUB wrote: »

softtouch harnesses are the best.

Really? I'm not sure they're *the best*! I know they're the most expensive alright, but having used all of the brands on a regular basis across a very wide range of dogs, I don't rate the SoftTouch as any better than, say, the Easy-Walk... in fact, the Easy-Walk sits better on more dogs than the SoftTouch ones do, in my experience.

Whispered

They are very expensive - at the time it was what was available to me easily. I think next time I'd like to try something like this



have you seen anything like this for sale?

boomerang

One problem with the front-connecting harnesses that only come in standard sizes is that it may not be a good fit for your cross-breed pooch. The same could be said for the head collars too, though.

I tried two different front-connecting harnesses with Boo, the Premier harness (via ebay) and the Sensation harness from DTI. She has a big German Shepherd girth but a narrow little collie chest. They fitted perfectly around her tum, but neither were snug enough across the chest - the D ring would flop down and get pulled to the side when we were walking. That's even when I adjusted it to its most narrow length. I ended up giving both away.

But I got a medium Sensation harness from DTI for my border collie and it fitted perfectly. In retrospect I don't know why I bought it as she never pulled, bless her. Just more comfy than attaching a lead to her collar, I suppose. One thing about using them in long-haired dog - the hair tends to get caught under the harness and it can pull/tug a bit at the skin, which can be uncomfortable. Same holds true for any harness though. I found it happened less so with the harness from Dog Games as the nylon webbing is sewn onto a wider length of nice soft fleece.

DBB

Whispered wrote: »

have you seen anything like this for sale?

Yes! But even better!
This Perfect Fit Harness that a few of us have mentioned in the past few posts is identical to the one you've posted in the pic, but it has the added benefit of lovely fleecey padding under the straps. The front-attachment ring must be specifically ordered, but I just can't get over how lovely these harnesses are! In relation to long hair getting caught, I agree with Boomerang that it doesn't happen with this harness, that I've noticed so far, and I have been watching out for it!
Have a look at them here: http://dog-games-shop.co.uk/perfect-fit-fleece-dog-harness

Otherwise, the pic you've posted also looks a lot like the design of the Freedom Harness, also linked to above.

cocker5

SillyMangoX wrote: »

Hi there, does anyone have any recommendations for harnesses for a chronic puller? I don't like the head collars or anything that ties around the neck as she coughs a lot when straining in the lead so I would prefer to take the pressure off her neck and I just don't trust head collars after bad experiences I've had. She's a large dog, golden retriever x rottie and is a bit over weight so would probably be looking at a larger size harness. Thanks in advance

IMO a harness will just make her pull harder, thats what happened with my cocker, it gave him more leverage to pull.

I know you said you dont like head collars but i use the dogmatic and find it great on my guy:

http://www.dogmatic.org.uk/

illicit007

Get a prong collar. I know they LOOK horrible but they're not. I've put one on myself before and pulled on it and it does not hurt. It gives the dog feedback when they start to pull. It's like power steering for dogs. I started my Doberman on one when he was young to teach him to walk properly and I don't use it any more. If you use them properly they're very good for training.

If you don't want to use a prong collar, don't use a choker chain / slip chain, they are actually painful to use but many pet shops sell them. What you really need to do is teach you dog on-leash manners. One way to do this is just stop dead still every time your dog pulls (which will be every time you start moving forward by the sounds) which means you won't actually be walking very far at all at first. Ironically this is easier to do when you're dog is already a bit tired out. So either go on a run with your dog, or go on your bike and have your dog run beside you. Then start your good manners walk training. The main thing that's needed when it comes to do training is patience and consistency. I have my dog trained so incredibly well people are always amazed. "I've never seen a dog so well trained" I've heard countless times. It's simple, it just takes will power on your part and patience and consistancy. You'll need to go out every day for 15 minutes and stop and start and stop and start over and over. Eventually your dog will learn he can't pull or you stop.

DBB

illicit007 wrote: »

Get a prong collar. I know they LOOK horrible but they're not. I've put one on myself before and pulled on it and it does not hurt. It gives the dog feedback when they start to pull. It's like power steering for dogs. I started my Doberman on one when he was young to teach him to walk properly and I don't use it any more. If you use them properly they're very good for training.

Perhaps you'd answer some questions for me.
What do you mean by "feedback"? How exactly does this convince the dog not to pull on the lead?
If they're not "horrible" and do not hurt, how come you don't use one any more on your dog?

SillyMangoX

illicit007 wrote: »

Get a prong collar. I know they LOOK horrible but they're not. I've put one on myself before and pulled on it and it does not hurt. It gives the dog feedback when they start to pull. It's like power steering for dogs. I started my Doberman on one when he was young to teach him to walk properly and I don't use it any more. If you use them properly they're very good for training.

I'm sorry but not a hope in hell would I ever use such cruel training methods.

illicit007

DBB wrote: »

Perhaps you'd answer some questions for me.
What do you mean by "feedback"? How exactly does this convince the dog not to pull on the lead?
If they're not "horrible" and do not hurt, how come you don't use one any more on your dog?

The prongs sit around the neck. Take your fingers and put them on the front of your neck. Now push your neck against your fingers. You feel your fingers pushing against your neck. It's not comfortable so you quickly stop doing it, or at least don't push so hard. Your fingers don't break the skin or leave injuries or anything. So its not cruel. I've put one on myself and pulled so I know. I did the same with a slip chain and that was very unpleasant. A prong collar looks horrible I admit, but believe me when I say the cause no injury. Any dog I put one on before basically immediately stopped pulling. After a few months you can use a regular collar because the dog gets into the habit of not pulling. I would use a prong collar as a training device not as an all day collar. Once the training is done why use it any more. I hope that answers your questions.

SillyMangoX

They cause no injury..really?

illicit007

SillyMangoX wrote: »

They cause no injury..really?

Maybe in the wrong hands, I've never seen anything like that before. Looks like someone did that to that dog on purpose or something. What's the story behind that photo? That's bloody awful.

illicit007

SillyMangoX wrote: »

They cause no injury..really?

They cause no injury the way I use them or the way they're intended to be used. The I've never seen a dog injured by one first hand or either have I seem one injured by one second hand via people I know or trainers I know who use them. Of course I'm sure like most things, in the wrong hands they could be dangerous. I believe that photo was the work of some sick individual who purposely inflicted those injuries. Not an accident caused by a well intentioned owner. Any time I've put one on a dog before they never pull hard enough on the collar to get close to injuring themselves . Anytime I've shown a dog owner how quickly a prong collar stops their dog pulling,ie immediately, they're amazed at the instantaneous transformation of their once hard pulling dog. I don't believe the collars are cruel. I wouldn't use them if they're cruel. Almost anything can be cruel if used in the wrong hands by the wrong mind.

DBB

You haven't really answered some of my questions. Or at least, I'm still not really understanding why use a prong collar.
Now, I will qualify my questions by clarifying that the prongs on a prong collar are nothing like fingers. They are spikes of steel, maybe 2mm in diameter on the prong collar I have here. Also, the prongs go all the way around the neck, not just into the front of it. So, can we agree that sticking your fingers into the front of your neck is not the same thing as having a ring of steel 2mm prongs all the way around your neck?

The way it seems to be, for me anyway, is that they work by negative reinforcement: the dog learns that if he pulls, it is uncomfortable, and in order to avoid the discomfort, he stops pulling.
I will, I have to say, fundamentally disagree with you that it doesn't hurt when you put a prong collar around your own neck. I only put one around my neck the other day. It was distinctly uncomfortable, and that was without tightening it. I have only taken them off dogs, never put them on, but one trainer I know put one around a dog's neck and it pissed itself immediately.

It is widely recognised that if a trainer has to use a piece of gear that utilises negative reinforcement, that they make damn sure they seriously, seriously limit the aversive effects which cause the dog to avoid the unpleasant sensation. So, gear like the front-connection harness is considered an acceptable negative reinforcer, because the level of aversion it causes is very mild. But I can't find one single dog training association, and I mean reputable dog training associations whose members have recognised dog training qualifications, that consider the prong collar to cause an acceptably small level of aversion. Quite the opposite. They all advise against their use. So do the reputable dog behaviour associations. They, along with choke chains, are considered to cause too many behavioural problems, as well as some pretty serious health problems.


I still don;t understand why are they okay to use as for training, but not okay to use for everyday? Surely, if something is okay to use to train a dog, it should be okay to use on the dog every day, for the rest of his life? So, why stop using it? I'm not really interested in them looking horrible or anything, I'm just curious to know the rational behind ditching them once the dog stops pulling?

An additional question: what trainers do you know who use them? Can you tell me what sort of qualifications they themselves have?

Edited to add: I am always worried about gear that can cause harm in the wrong hands. To my mind, if a piece of gear is really ethical, and truly not cruel, then even in the wrong hands it can do minimal damage. A very quick google has revealed to me a lot of pics of dogs with horrible injuries to the their necks from them.

bluecherry74

Here's a photo of Henry with the Perfect Fit Harness (Jess is wearing one too but it doesn't have the front D ring because she's a princess on the lead). You can just about make out the D ring underneath Henry's chest hair. Click the photo to see a much bigger image.


Jess & Henry at Fogher Cliffs, Valentia Island by bluecherry74, on Flickr

I know some of you have been following my thread about the Dogmatic, well I've been using it since just before Christmas and it's been working brilliantly - Hen is so much calmer on our walks now. Last night I decided to chance using the front attach harness for the first time since I got the Dogmatic, just to see how he got on... and he was FANTASTIC! I wouldn't quite call it loose lead walking, but he barely put any pressure on the lead, just trotted along at the pace I set. I doubt he's "cured" and I may need to revert back to the Dogmatic occasionally, but I'm beyond happy with his progress.

nemo32

bluecherry74 wrote: »

Here's a photo of Henry with the Perfect Fit Harness (Jess is wearing one too but it doesn't have the front D ring because she's a princess on the lead). You can just about make out the D ring underneath Henry's chest hair. Click the photo to see a much bigger image.


Jess & Henry at Fogher Cliffs, Valentia Island by bluecherry74, on Flickr

I know some of you have been following my thread about the Dogmatic, well I've been using it since just before Christmas and it's been working brilliantly - Hen is so much calmer on our walks now. Last night I decided to chance using the front attach harness for the first time since I got the Dogmatic, just to see how he got on... and he was FANTASTIC! I wouldn't quite call it loose lead walking, but he barely put any pressure on the lead, just trotted along at the pace I set. I doubt he's "cured" and I may need to revert back to the Dogmatic occasionally, but I'm beyond happy with his progress.

They look great bluecherry. Great to hear you success with the Dogmatic because I have just ordered one for my guy. I hoping this is the answer to all my prays, basically if I can get out and walk my guy morning, lunch and dinner I am hoping it will help with this barking, separation anxiety etc. At the moment only my OH can walk him which is once a day

boomerang

Beautiful, happy dogs, what a credit to you!

illicit007

DBB wrote: »

I still don;t understand why are they okay to use as for training, but not okay to use for everyday? Surely, if something is okay to use to train a dog, it should be okay to use on the dog every day, for the rest of his life? So, why stop using it? I'm not really interested in them looking horrible or anything, I'm just curious to know the rational behind ditching them once the dog stops pulling?

Hi DBB. I can only speak from personal experience and from what I know obviously. You sound like you know what you're talking about so I'm going to look into the types of collars you've talked about and if you don't mind I'll PM you about this and we can have a discussion as I don't want to hijack this persons thread. I don't need to train my dog on a leash any more but I'm always interested in learning things about training. Perhaps the methods I learn't are outdated and there are better methods know, I don't know. All I know now is that I have a perfectly well behaved happy attentive dog. My main problem is socialising him and training him with other dogs around as there's no dog social clubs where I lives. I can only do that when I drop him to the kennel which he loves. If you give me permission I'll PM about it, I'll answer your questions in more detail and ask you some questions of my own and get your advice etc. I have to start work now so probably it will be tomorrow. Thanks.

DBB

Please, PM away

@Bluecherry,
Your dogs melt my heart

tk123

I have this water proof one for aqua man . It's similar to perfect fit one I think in the way it fits. They do loads of sizes so it was great to finally get a harness that fits him everywhere! Since it's got foam inside it doesn't lose it's shape/sag/hang down once he's had a swim and no harness dripping wet when we get home or hogging space on the radiators. We do t-touch groundwork exercises for his legs so it's prefect with the front and back attachments.

hpsheba

At the moment I love the freedom harness but I will always be willing to try a new front connection harness so will suss out the perfect fit one as well. I used the Sensation/Sensible harness for a few years and loved that one as well but went with the freedom harness for a few reasons, the main one being the underbelly strap is velvet lined so worked better on short coated dogs, also it comes with a double connection leash so more control for those of us with dodgy backs who walk multiple dogs/ Other than that any front fastening harness would get my vote.

On Prong collars I can only echo what DBB says . Not a good choice for many many reasons

bluecherry74

DBB wrote: »

@Bluecherry,
Your dogs melt my heart

Aww, thanks. Makes a change from them melting my head!

kassie

OP - i can 100% recommend the dogmatic head collar www.dogmatic.org.uk they are designed by dog people, they look similar to the halti but thats it!! totally different workings. I have one for my dane (who is 15st!!! and i would let my 2yr old toddler walk him with the dogmatic {under supervision obviously!!!}) and my small foxhound cross who would put any husky to shame! I now have a constant dull ache from a strained muscle in my shoulder from all the years of walking her and like you tried every gimmick on the net and only found dogmatic to work. Its kind, its gentle on the dog and its comfortable. It resembles a horse head collar, goes on the dogs head in the same way. Obviously if your dog is not used to wearing it, it will protest in the beginning a bit but after some gentle introduction should settle down and you can both start to enjoy walking again.

nemo32

Oh Kassie I am delighted to read your post.. like I said I am hoping the dogmatic is the answer to all my prays. Ordered it on Monday, looks like it could be next week before I get it though

nemo32

It arrived this morning and we are just back from our first walk.. I think the DOGMATIC collar just saved my sanity! I love it, my puppy not so much at the start but came around to the idea. Was able to walk him with one hand by the end of the walk. Can't wait to go back out in the morning. Thank you to everyone who recommended it! :-)

bluecherry74

That's great news! Hopefully you'll only need it temporarily like me. One thing that I found really helped with the Dogmatic was to give Henry a bit of extra length on the lead so he could put his head down and sniff freely. He didn't struggle against it at all once he was able to do that.

Good luck!

thebullkf

Folks,


Are there any bricks and mortar shops selling these ?

Thanks

euser1984

Harnesses were designed with the original attention to be worn for working dogs (think of a sled dog or a police dog) and not to stop pulling when walking them. Prong collars are used to train their dogs with techniques far outdated.

They might work but your basically forcing a dog to behave in a certain way and conditioning them to do something that they really didn't or don't want to do. The other alternative which is scientific and proven over years of practice, is to have a good bond with your dog and award behaviour that you want; while not awarding unwanted behaviour. The dog will want to do it, if you condition him/her that way and they will enjoy doing it for you and pleasing you, if you have the bond. You have a happy dog generally - that's not to say you don't need to put the foot down when needs be - a prong collar isn't needed though. A change of tone and power in your voice is enough to let the dog know they have "let you down".

I see someone walking a dog close to me and they always have the halti on and have conditioned the dog to always walk to heel. It's very unnatural to look at because it is unnatural for a dog. Dogs want to explore and smell stuff because that is in their instinct.

You have to let a dog be a dog.....

Sorry for opening an old thread and I don't believe I'm opening a can of worms - this is factual and backed up with practiced results....give it a go - read up on clicker training and you will see positive results fairly quickly.

For someone that mentioned "cured"....maybe your dog has been cured from your pov. From the dogs point of view I don't think he would view it the same way or define the problem in the same way.

A properly conditioned dog on the lead never pulls (at all)....if he pulls, even a small bit then the dog is not walking properly on a lead.

ZiabR

thebullkf wrote: »

Folks,


Are there any bricks and mortar shops selling these ?

Thanks

Yes, got mine in Woodies DIY. Might not have been called dogmatic but its the same thing. 9.99 euro.

tk123

logik wrote: »

Yes, got mine in Woodies DIY. Might not have been called dogmatic but its the same thing. 9.99 euro.

The canny collar? They're both head collars but they're not the same - the canny attached behind the dogs head but the dogmatic attaches under their chin and is better padded/better made.