Are Irish developers underpaid?

lemon_remon

According to forbes the average salary for a computer science graduate in the US is circa $65,000. In Ireland similar figures aren't available but I imagine it's somewhere around €26,000. This would be over €20,000 less than what what the average US graduate makes. I'm a soon to be graduate myself and this difference in pay scale seems insane. You can say that the cost of living in the US is higher but, whether this is true or not, it would not account for such a massive difference in pay scales. Do things balance out as developers gain experience or do Irish developers undersell themselves? I'd be interested in hearing some first hand experience.

SalteeDog

Speaking generally if Irish developers were paid the same as US developers then many of the jobs in this country wouldn't exist. My experience (global multinationals) is companies will budget $100+ an hour for US based, about $40 to $60 for Irish and $20 to $40 for India. (These numbers are salary+overhead). Of course certain individuals with specific skills/experience may command much more just as entry level roles will command much less.

IRLConor

It's been a while since I've been a graduate but I'd be surprised if €26,000 was the average salary.

What little I've heard about graduate salaries has been €28-€32k depending on employer and candidate.

srsly78

1. You can't just do a simple currency conversion to compare salaries between countries, you should also take cost of living and tax rate into account.

2. Not all developers are computer science graduates.

Sparks

Glassdoor has a huge range of salaries from €25k up to the €130k range depending on company size and seniority. Morgan McKinley has a range from €25k to €75k depending on language and experience level (that's from their 2013 salary survey). Brightwater says from €30k to €90k depending on role and experience (again, from their 2013 salary survey).

They're not poverty-level numbers, and are a lot higher than engineers in other branches of engineering (they're a good third higher even at the mid-level of experience); but compared to other professions with similar degrees of training and social necessity like doctors, the legal profession, and so forth, they're terrible.

ChRoMe

srsly78 wrote: »

1. You can't just do a simple currency conversion to compare salaries between countries, you should also take cost of living and tax rate into account.

2. Not all developers are computer science graduates.

This, such raw comparisons are laughable they are so meaningless.

lemon_remon

srsly78 wrote: »

1. You can't just do a simple currency conversion to compare salaries between countries, you should also take cost of living and tax rate into account.

2. Not all developers are computer science graduates.

1. I addressed that in the OP. Cost of living in Ireland is relatively high compared to the average cost of the living the US.

2. I never said they were, I was using it to gauge salary comparisons as most computer science graduates, be it correct or incorrect, go into (software) development roles. If the difference between graduates is so disperse then why wouldn't it be at other levels?

srsly78

Appearances can be deceiving, I would contend that development jobs are focused in expensive places like Silicon Valley and other tech-hubs. Maybe it's the developers making these places expensive >.<

Similar story here in Ireland, with stupid-expensive-Dublin having most of the higher paying jobs.

ChRoMe

lemon_remon wrote: »

1. I addressed that in the OP. Cost of living in Ireland is relatively high compared to the average cost of the living the US.

2. I never said they were, I was using it to gauge salary comparisons as most computer science graduates, be it correct or incorrect, go into (software) development roles. If the difference between graduates is so disperse then why wouldn't it be at other levels?

Massive holes can still immediately be blown in your assumptions. You are treating the USA as a whole (?!?). SF/NYC is going to be very different rates compared to MN and other midwest states. Then are there fluctuations between state and federal laws and their associated tax implications. Thats only the start.

srsly78

Not to mention the differences between healthcare and social insurance across various countries. If you ever work abroad you might be surprised at all the extra mandatory deductions taken from your wages. Not that the Irish system is necessarily better of course...

lemon_remon

srsly78 wrote: »

Appearances can be deceiving, I would contend that development jobs are focused in expensive places like Silicon Valley and other tech-hubs. Maybe it's the developers making these places expensive >.<

The average graduate salary in silicon valley is in the 6 figures, it can't be considered the norm with the high cost of living and start-up centered culture.

srsly78 wrote: »

Similar story here in Ireland, with stupid-expensive-Dublin having most of the higher paying jobs.

That's what my question was addressing. Why, with a similar cost of living to most places in the US, are Irish developers so "underpaid". Underpaid in the sense that there are vacancies in the sector but it is not as well paid as what are considered other "professional" jobs.

lemon_remon

ChRoMe wrote: »

Massive holes can still immediately be blown in your assumptions. You are treating the USA as a whole (?!?). SF/NYC is going to be very different rates compared to MN and other midwest states. Then are there fluctuations between state and federal laws and their associated tax implications. Thats only the start.

Hence why I addressed the average. Why shouldn't the average be comparable to Ireland?

ChRoMe

lemon_remon wrote: »

Hence why I addressed the average. Why shouldn't the average be comparable to Ireland?

Its a Continent of 300 million people......... How on earth do you expect to extrapolate any relevant data using that set?

srsly78

The grass seems greener in other professions sometimes yes. But have you read about doctors being "junior doctors" until they reach their 40s? With 100 hour weeks and crap pay etc. The older generations had things better... I have heard similar stories about law and accountancy as well.

If you want to earn silly money with the quickest training then be a pilot Costs a lot to do the exams tho, and hard work doing all the training - you could be flying a 737 for an airline in about 2 years I believe.

lemon_remon

ChRoMe wrote: »

Its a Continent of 300 million people.........

I don't see what that was to do with things. A "professional" is a professional. The average American university is comparable to the likes of Irish universities, so why are the graduates worth so much less?

lemon_remon

srsly78 wrote: »

The grass seems greener in other professions sometimes yes. But have you read about doctors being "junior doctors" until they reach their 40s? With 100 hour weeks and crap pay etc. The older generations had things better... I have heard similar stories about law and accountancy as well.

If you want to earn silly money with the quickest training then be a pilot Costs a lot to do the exams tho, and hard work doing all the training (you could be flying a 737 for an airplane in about 2 years I believe).

I'm not looking for silly money. I simply think people should get what they're worth. If you were selling a product, and the product was worth nearly twice as much in America as it was in Ireland, wouldn't you bring your product to America and not bother with Ireland?

Sorry for multiple posts.

srsly78

A lot of us would no doubt jump at the chance to work in America yes. But it isn't so easy - most of us would be illegal aliens Would have to find a company willing to sponsor us. We are free to work wherever we want in Europe tho - London pays well.

ChRoMe

lemon_remon wrote: »

I don't see what that was to do with things. A "professional" is a professional. The average American university is comparable to the likes of Irish universities, so why are the graduates worth so much less?

You really dont see any issues with comparing a country with 300 million people with one that has 4 million. Completely different tax regulations both on a national and local level? Really?

Read the above sentences several times for clarity.

ChRoMe

srsly78 wrote: »

A lot of us would no doubt jump at the chance to work in America yes. But it isn't so easy! We are free to work wherever we want in Europe tho - London pays well.

**** that. You aware of what an "at will" state's labour laws are? Its ****ing stone age stuff.

srsly78

Like I care? I would take a 6 month contract and invoice them. What are the per-diem subsistence rates for business trips to America anyway? I might actually have a business trip to Colarado coming up - but I've missed the skiing season

lemon_remon

ChRoMe wrote: »

You really dont see any issues with comparing a country with 300 million people with one that has 4 million. Completely different tax regulations both on a national and local level? Really?

Read the above sentences several times for clarity.

Unfortunately, tax regulations don't account for the magnitude of difference here. You're right, you can't compare salaries on a euro by euro basis but, even if you don't, the differences are more severe.

I haven't done a similar comparison with the UK but imagine the situation would be similar: Irish developers seem underpaid.

ChRoMe

srsly78 wrote: »

Like I care? I would take a 6 month contract and invoice them. What are the per-diem subsistence rates for business trips to America anyway?

Never even checked, doesn't make financial sense to work in the states,considering the USD is near worthless compared to GBP.

ChRoMe

lemon_remon wrote: »

Unfortunately, tax regulations don't account for the magnitude of difference here. You're right, you can't compare salaries on a euro by euro basis but, even if you don't, the differences are more severe.

I haven't done a similar comparison with the UK but imagine the situation would be similar: Irish developers seem underpaid.

You are working with a US average that is skewed by the richest and poorest areas in one of the biggest economies in the world.

lemon_remon

ChRoMe wrote: »

Never even checked, doesn't make financial sense to work in the states,considering the USD is near worthless compared to GBP.

I suppose it depends what sector you're in. If you're in bleeding edge, silicon valley, Austin, Seattle etc. make sense. If you're in the financial sector, the UK makes sense. But when exactly does Ireland make sense, that is my question?

lemon_remon

ChRoMe wrote: »

You are working with a US average that is skewed by the richest and poorest areas in one of the biggest economies in the world.

That is very anecdotal and just comes across as very anti US.

ChRoMe

lemon_remon wrote: »

That is very anecdotal and just comes across as very anti US.

Anecdotal? Its the definition of how an average is calculated. It is in fact in every possible way, the complete opposite of anecdotal evidence.

Its not anti US at all, the only thing I'm anti is an Irish person equating their experience in Ireland and super imposing that on other countries for a view of how the world works. Thats doomed to failure and frustration from the start.

lemon_remon

ChRoMe wrote: »

Anecdotal? Its the definition of how an average is calculated. It is in fact in every possible way, the complete opposite of anecdotal evidence.

For all you know the distribution of wealth doesn't apply to software developers in the US, just because you say it does doesn't make it true.

ChRoMe wrote: »

Its not anti US at all, the only thing I'm anti is an Irish person equating their experience in Ireland and super imposing that on other countries for a view of how the world works. Thats doomed to failure and frustration from the start.

I'm not comparing any sort of "experience", I'm comparing salary figures which is a fair thing to do, in fact people do it all the time. I haven't come to any sort of conclusion on "how the world works", that would be for a completely different discussion on a different forum.

Sparks

ChRoMe wrote: »

You really dont see any issues with comparing a country with 300 million people with one that has 4 million. Completely different tax regulations both on a national and local level? Really?

There are huge issues with doing that, but...

...given how many people are considering (or being forced to undertake) emigration, it's something people are having to attempt, if only to pick a destination. Switzerland or New Zealand? Canada or Australia? Hong Kong or Germany?

That's about all the value I can see in this thread, but it's such a significant little nugget of information that the thread seems worthwhile....if we kept at least in the vicinity of that point. Just arguing about whether the salary in California was better or worse than the salary in Dublin isn't hugely productive unless you're considering emigration...

ChRoMe wrote: »

**** that. You aware of what an "at will" state's labour laws are? Its ****ing stone age stuff.

Not quite stone age really, more victorian england in the days of the early industrial revolution, complete with all the lovely abuse employees were subjected to by employers at the time and the lack of legal protections. Some of the stuff you see reported from the US these days, you'd wonder how on earth any sane human would accept it begin done to them

ChRoMe

Sparks wrote: »

...given how many people are considering (or being forced to undertake) emigration, it's something people are having to attempt, if only to pick a destination. Switzerland or New Zealand? Canada or Australia? Hong Kong or Germany?

That's about all the value I can see in this thread,

As an Irish software developer who has been in London for several years. Watching such comparisons being done in the decision making process for deciding where to emigrate to wakes me fear for the people doing them.

Its nearly worse than doing no research at all.

ChRoMe

lemon_remon wrote: »

For all you know the distribution of wealth doesn't apply to software developers in the US, just because you say it does doesn't make it true.



I'm not comparing any sort of "experience", I'm comparing salary figures which is a fair thing to do, in fact people do it all the time. I haven't come to any sort of conclusion on "how the world works", that would be for a completely different discussion on a different forum.

You are just getting confused on the comparisons. Irish developers are not underpaid, the variations you are seeing is explained by the fact that the top jobs, the real best in the world stuff. Does not exist in Ireland. These top jobs are in the US,UK and other larger economies. There are many reasons for this, which you can go and read about on your own if you want.

Ireland, has a large but quality range of mid level software development positions. So its not a case that their are underpaid ,its the distortion provided by the top sectors of the larger economies.

Ps I don't think you know what the word anecdotal means....

lemon_remon

ChRoMe wrote: »

You are just getting confused on the comparisons. Irish developers are not underpaid, the variations you are seeing is explained by the fact that the top jobs, the real best in the world stuff. Does not exist in Ireland. These top jobs are in the US,UK and other larger economies. There are many reasons for this, which you can go and read about on your own if you want.

Ireland, has a large but quality range of mid level software development positions. So its not a case that their are underpaid ,its the distortion provided by the top sectors of the larger economies.

Ireland has Google, Amazon, Dropbox, Facebook, Microsoft etc. which should mean there are people earning "top" salaries here. The jobs which you describe i.e "best in the world stuff", are, by defintion, not in high abundance and should not affect data that much. Besides that, the figures I provided in the OP are graduate jobs with a large deviation. This is hardly "best in the world" stuff and suggests there may be a large difference at all levels.

ChRoMe wrote: »

Ps I don't think you know what the word anecdotal means....

Not necessarily true or reliable, because based on personal accounts rather than facts or research.

Very applicable to your description of jobs in the US.

ChRoMe

lemon_remon wrote: »

Ireland has Google, Amazon, Dropbox, Facebook, Microsoft etc. which should mean there are people earning "top" salaries here. The jobs which you describe i.e "best in the world stuff", are, by defintion, not in high abundance and should not affect data that much. Besides that, the figures I provided in the OP are graduate jobs with a large deviation. This is hardly "best in the world" stuff and suggests there may be a large difference at all levels.



Very applicable to your description of jobs in the US.

Yeah all those MNC's have European HQ here for tax reasons, amusingly very few of the jobs are software development (some of them none at all). Not one of those companies major development happens in Ireland. Google is HR,infrastructure and accounting departments. Facebook's only real engineering centre outside of the US, is here in London in Covent Garden etc.

You replied with "anecdotal" to me when I explained that averages incorporated the high end spectrum of jobs in a larger economy.

I've had enough of this now, silly me should have realised that someone about to graduate university, has surley learned all there is to know...

IRLConor

Supply. Demand. Difference between two.

That's the primary reason salaries are different for similar jobs in different locations.

The difference between supply and demand is greater in San Francisco/Silicon Valley than it is in Dublin so obviously the availability of big salaries is smaller here. Ditto for the difference between Dublin and the rest of the country.

It's not rocket science.

lemon_remon

ChRoMe wrote: »

Yeah all those MNC's have European HQ here for tax reasons, amusingly very few of the jobs are software development (some of them none at all). Not one of those companies major development happens in Ireland. Google is HR,infrastructure and accounting departments. Facebook's only real engineering centre outside of the US, is here in London in Covent Garden etc.

Depends how you define major development. Amazon build large parts of their maintenance software for their AWS platform here. Microsoft work on their Azure platform, as well as components of Office. I'm not sure of the exact work that Google does in Dublin, but I'm confident that it too could fall under the category of "major development". Obviously, they're not doing as much as they are in their American branches because they are smaller branches but there is serious development happening in Ireland.

ChRoMe wrote: »

You replied with "anecdotal" to me when I explained that averages incorporated the high end spectrum of jobs in a larger economy.

It doesn't explain anything. There aren't that many "top jobs". I doubt there's that much a difference in the percentage of top jobs in Ireland compared to the US. Besides, as I said, what I provided was for graduate jobs.

ChRoMe wrote: »

How many months (weeks?) of professional development experience are you drawing from?

This is irrelevant to the discussion.

IRLConor

lemon_remon wrote: »

Besides, as I said, what I provided was for graduate jobs.

One further point on supply v demand with respect to graduate jobs: Until they're desperate for warm bodies most companies will avoid hiring inexperienced graduates (since they're very often a net loss making prospect). Thus, the demand for inexperienced graduates is almost always low and hence salaries for such candidates are also almost always low.

It's only in times/locations where demand greatly outstrips supply that you see big money salaries going to inexperienced graduates.

ChRoMe

lemon_remon wrote: »

Depends how you define major development.

Core product development. The facebook feed algo, the google search algo etc

ChRoMe

Perfect timing.

Read today's following piece in the Irish Times regarding the "tech giants" in Dublin.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/weekend/2013/0209/1224329821083.html

Notice how few (any?) jobs that are mentioned in the article are development jobs. I could be wrong but I dont think a single coding job is mentioned.

AlmightyCushion

ChRoMe wrote: »

Perfect timing.

Read today's following piece in the Irish Times regarding the "tech giants" in Dublin.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/weekend/2013/0209/1224329821083.html

Notice how few (any?) jobs that are mentioned in the article are development jobs. I could be wrong but I dont think a single coding job is mentioned.

The article focuses on immigrants working in these tech companies so it's not surprising most are doing jobs where their language skills are useful or essential.

lemon_remon

ChRoMe wrote: »

Core product development. The facebook feed algo, the google search algo etc

It's not fair to only consider only those teams as core developers. The google search engine team is kept purposely tiny. It's <15 people. I imagine the situation at places like facebook is similar (or not as their **** is always breaking).

ChRoMe wrote: »

Perfect timing.

Read today's following piece in the Irish Times regarding the "tech giants" in Dublin.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/weekend/2013/0209/1224329821083.html

Notice how few (any?) jobs that are mentioned in the article are development jobs. I could be wrong but I dont think a single coding job is mentioned.

It's talking about language support jobs, you've missed the point of the article.

https://www.google.com/about/jobs/search/?#!t=jo&jid=32152&

https://uk-amazon.icims.com/jobs/204050/job?in_iframe=1

http://www.microsoft-careers.com/job/Dublin-Software-Development-Engineer-%28SDE%29-Job/2375415/

Just some I found from a search.

IRLConor wrote: »

One further point on supply v demand with respect to graduate jobs: Until they're desperate for warm bodies most companies will avoid hiring inexperienced graduates (since they're very often a net loss making prospect). Thus, the demand for inexperienced graduates is almost always low and hence salaries for such candidates are also almost always low.

It's only in times/locations where demand greatly outstrips supply that you see big money salaries going to inexperienced graduates.

According to many companies they are short on talent. So why don't the salaries match? Or do they, I'm open to correction?

ChRoMe wrote: »

I've had enough of this now, silly me should have realised that someone about to graduate university, has surley learned all there is to know...

I missed this edit earlier but I certainly don't think I've adopted this position. If anything that is the attitude you seem to have taken but swap "about to graduate" to "a few years experience".

IRLConor

lemon_remon wrote: »

According to many companies they are short on talent. So why don't the salaries match? Or do they, I'm open to correction?

I thought you were talking about graduates? Graduates are not talent.

Inexperienced graduates are potential talent if you have the resources to afford to teach them and the ability to persuade them to stay long enough to recoup your investment in them. That's a rare luxury in this industry - there are plenty of rich companies and there are plenty of cool companies that are fun to work at but there aren't too many that are both.

Experienced graduates are another story altogether, but I don't think they have too many issues getting paid more than the salaries you quoted in your OP.

cython

lemon_remon wrote: »

I don't see what that was to do with things. A "professional" is a professional. The average American university is comparable to the likes of Irish universities, so why are the graduates worth so much less?

They actually have one big difference on the surface - cost. It costs a lot more for third-level education in the US, and as a result grads there can have much more student debt to pay off afterwards, so even less of this supposed higher pay actually gets to them for quite some time

Manach

Perhaps instead of a comparison with the US, a starting point might be Irish public sector wages for compariable experience? Not there would be a number of an issues, the exact comparing of like for like etc, but it would establish ballpark figures which are in the public domain and so available.

srsly78

The public sector seems to outsource development from what I have seen. I know some guys in public sector it support jobs but not development really. They seem to get in Accenture et al for horribly overpriced contracts.

I know some contractors working for various consultancies that do software development for public sector. A strange situation because contractor vs public sector job are polar opposites

markpb

ChRoMe wrote: »

Core product development. The facebook feed algo, the google search algo etc

I think you're a few years behind the curve if you think those things are core to those companies any more. The software that captures and processes vast amounts of customer data, the profiling and advertising software and the software that manages data centres and hundreds of thousands of servers across the world are vastly more complicated, more valuable and more profitable than a search algorithm.

ChRoMe

markpb wrote: »

I think you're a few years behind the curve if you think those things are core to those companies any more. The software that captures and processes vast amounts of customer data, the profiling and advertising software and the software that manages data centres and hundreds of thousands of servers across the world are vastly more complicated, more valuable and more profitable than a search algorithm.

Its not the complexity of the engineering, its the proximity to capital which makes it more valuable.

COYW

srsly78 wrote: »

The public sector seems to outsource development from what I have seen. I know some guys in public sector it support jobs but not development really. They seem to get in Accenture et al for horribly overpriced contracts.

I know some contractors working for various consultancies that do software development for public sector. A strange situation because contractor vs public sector job are polar opposites

Yep, I am working for a company at the moment who deals solely with public sector clients. Accenture, Deloitte etc are brought in to develop software by all of them for insane daily rates.

On graduate salaries, my brother is a graduate who just started working and he is on €19,000. He is working in Sys Admin for a consulting type company, Irish owned.

ChRoMe

COYW wrote: »

On graduate salaries, my brother is a graduate who just started working and he is on €19,000. He is working in Sys Admin for a consulting type company, Irish owned.

:eek:

Creamy Goodness

Seriously 19k? What kind of graduate is he? He should be looking to move if he isn't already.

ChRoMe

Creamy Goodness wrote: »

Seriously 19k? What kind of graduate is he? He should be looking to move if he isn't already.

I think its probably more "1st level support" than "system administrator" to be honest. Which 19k is what I'd imagine that sort of position warrants.

Whichever it is, it defo aint a development role.

dazberry

ChRoMe wrote: »

I think its probably more "1st level support" than "system administrator" to be honest. Which 19k is what I'd imagine that sort of position warrants.

Whichever it is, it defo aint a development role.

You missed the bit "consulting type company, Irish owned". I worked for a "consulting type company, Irish owned" for 8.5k when most grads were going into localisation at 12k. I took the job predicated on getting experience in MFC and VC++ (which was the hot ticket then) and of course didn't as I mainly ended up doing x86 assembly language, although it wasn't beyond the impossible to find say a HPUX manual on my desk and be told to go out somewhere as a consultant and do something at their vastly overpriced hourly rate - shysters.

D.

Sparks

Yeah, that's a common enough story...