Why dont Irish Rail recognise Bagnalstown?

LordSutch

Was watching an episode of the very enjoyable "Great Railway journeys" series the other night on BBC Four.
In this series Michael Portillo retraces railway journeys in Britain & Ireland as bescribed by Bradshaws 1863 railway guide.

One of the places mentioned is Bagnasltown and Michael sets out to find Bagnalstown and see if its changed much since 1863, he then discovers that it no longer exists on the Irish Rail map, so he gets off at the closest destination which is Muine Bheag, he then meets a local councillor and asks "So where is Bagnalstown" to which the councillor replies "this is it" you're here Michael! this is the town of Bagnalstown as recognised by everybody (except Irish Rail) who decided to ignore a recent public vote on the name of the town, and name the train station in Irish as 'Muine Bheag' instead of Bagnalstown.

Quite confusing for Irish and foreign tourists, I would have thought.

Sponge Bob

LordSutch wrote: »

Bradshaws 1863 railway guide. Quite confusing for Irish and foreign tourists, I would have thought.

Anybody relying on a colonial era guidebook that is 150 years old and includes towns named after thieving plantation era landgrabbers deserves to be left confused.

Did Portillo get to Parsonstown, the site of the first stolen British railway yet???

goingnowhere

Its not unique, Dun Laoghaire is known only by its Irish name.

Don't fancy the english name, Kingstown...

LordSutch

If you read post#1 again you will see that the locals recently had a vote on the name of the town, re whether to retain the towns name as Bagnalstown, or to rename the town with an Irish equivalent - So the votes were cast, and the modern day locals voted overwhelmingly to keep the name as Bagnalstown.

... and yet Irish Rail ignored this recent vote (according to the coulcillor) and created an Irish name for the station 'Muine Bheag' anyway which the locals disagree with. Irish Rail seem to be a law onto themselves on this one.

Echoes of the Dingle fiasco if you ask me.

im invisible

What does Muine Bheag even mean?

LordSutch

exactly.

foggy_lad

LordSutch wrote: »

If you read post#1 again you will see that the locals recently had a vote on the name of the town, re whether to retain the towns name as Bagnalstown, or to rename the town with an Irish equivalent - So the votes were cast, and the modern day locals voted overwhelmingly to keep the name as Bagnalstown.

... and yet Irish Rail ignored this recent vote (according to the coulcillor) and created an Irish name for the station 'Muine Bheag' anyway which the locals disagree with.

Irish Rail seem to be a law onto themselves on this one.

It was only recently that they changed station names from Irish to English, Dúrlas springs to mind, and then for years Edgesworthstown was named Mostrim after the townland/crossroads where the station is located.

LordSutch

The gist of my point is that Bagnalstown is known as Bagenalstown by everybody except Irish Rail,
who recently renamed the station Muine Bheag against the wishes of the Townspeople.

gobnaitolunacy

im invisible wrote: »

What does Muine Bheag even mean?

'Small thicket' ....hardly the most inspiring thing for a town to be named after!

CIE tried to popularise Rath Luirc/An Rath to the exclusion of Charleville and that didn't catch on, likewise Mostrim/Edgeworthstown.
Oddly enough, other placesnames like Maryborough are pretty much extinct now.

LordSutch

Bagenalstown is a town on the western fringe of County Carlow. Built in the 1700s on the River Barrow by Lord Walter Bagenal, the town was originally based on Versailles in France. Today, with a population of 3,000 people, it offers a growing number of services and facilities, boosted by the easy access from its location just off the main Dublin - Waterford road and rail routes.

By train

Bagenalstown is served by the Dublin - Waterford rail route. It is about 90 minutes from these cities and 15 minutes from Carlow town.
Iarnrod Eireann (Ireland's rail operator) use "Muine Bheag" as the station name. http://wikitravel.org/en/Bagenalstown

Sponge Bob

I just call it Muine Bheag or translate that to "Small Hedgefund" if required. How complicated is that??
I honestly don't know which is the more edifying, Small Hedgefund Carlow or Carlow Small Hedgefund.....mmmmm thinks.??!!??

But relying on a 150 year old guidebook toted around by a failed Thatcher era conservative politician to anchor a thread giving out about CIE.....not my style. Even Foggy wouldn't go off one one over that and we ALL know Foggy can fair manage them.

schemingbohemia

It's been Muine Bheag for ages though hasn't it? Not a recent development as you're claiming.

Emme

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Anybody relying on a colonial era guidebook that is 150 years old and includes towns named after thieving plantation era landgrabbers deserves to be left confused.

I thought Bagenalstown was named after Lord Bagenal Harvey, who fought with the Irish rebels

gobnaitolunacy

Emme wrote: »

I thought Bagenalstown was named after Lord Bagenal Harvey, who fought with the Irish rebels

Founded by his cousin, Walter, who changed from Catholic to Protestant to hold onto his estates.

LordSutch

schemingbohemia wrote: »

It's been Muine Bheag for ages though hasn't it? Not a recent development as you're claiming.

Well this is what others had to say about it from a 2009 thread . . . .

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=61630838&postcount=5

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=61623661&postcount=1

Sponge Bob

Bring back Queenstown , named after Queen Viictoria and Maryborough....named after Queen Mary....while we are at it, along with Queens County what Maryborough was capital of for 100s of years.

And what is the Proper English name for that Pesky "Portlaoise" anyway???? , I mean how dare Iarnród Éireann not show it.

noelfirl

There's an episode of this on BBC2 now, apparently last in series. Gricers need not apply, shots of 22k's only so far.

Adyx

LordSutch wrote: »

Well this is what others had to say about it from a 2009 thread . . . .

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=61630838&postcount=5

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=61623661&postcount=1

That doesn't suggest the station was recently renamed though. It's been announced as Muine Bheag on the train for as long as I can remember. And it's really not worth the hassle and expense of changing it now.

Sponge Bob

This week, the Callander and_Oban Railway in Scotland and not Portillo.

LordSutch

Adyx wrote: »

That doesn't suggest the station was recently renamed though. It's been announced as Muine Bheag on the train for as long as I can remember.

Yeah, early or late 90s?

Can't remember when the town voted to stay with Bagenalstown, but it was fairly recently, which is when Irish Rail decided to do their own thing!

I will try and get the episode and post it here in due course, then you can see the farcical situation wherby (from a tourist point of view) all the
guide books point to Bagenalstown, but then when you're on the train there is no mention of Bagenalstown, but just Muine Bheag :cool:

As I said before, this really does have echoes of the Dingle/An Daingean fiasco > http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2f/Dingle-An_Daingean_graffiti.jpg

Hilly Bill

If it was called Bagenalstown for years then there would be a campaign to use the irish name instead. Does the station signs have both names?

Hilly Bill

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Bring back Queenstown , named after Queen Viictoria and Maryborough....named after Queen Mary....while we are at it, along with Queens County what Maryborough was capital of for 100s of years.

And what is the Proper English name for that Pesky "Portlaoise" anyway???? , I mean how dare Iarnród Éireann not show it.

Have you seen the station signs in Portlaoise? They are supposed to be bi-lingual but they are spelt the same .

ThreeLineWhip

Hilly Bill wrote: »

If it was called Bagenalstown for years then there would be a campaign to use the irish name instead. Does the station signs have both names?

No. Irish only.

Julius Seizure

What really grinds my gears is how it says it twice..

ThreeLineWhip

Irish rail does have a fetish for Irish language names. Until the start of Arrow services Newbridge was only acknowledged by the railway as Droichead Nua.

Also Maryborough survived until 1946 on the railways despite the name being dropped immediately on independence from Britain.

MrJoeSoap

Never understood the whole Muine Bheag thing myself. One of the few stations I've ever seen without the English town name on the signs.

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Have you seen the station signs in Portlaoise? They are supposed to be bi-lingual but they are spelt the same .

And up until recently, Broombridge was quite literally referred to ás Gaeilge as Droichead na Scuab. It has since changed to Droichead Broome, since it was named after William Brougham and not an actual broom.

You'd think that when they were renaming it, they would have spelled it as Brougham.

RevBlueJeans

goingnowhere wrote: »

Its not unique, Dun Laoghaire is known only by its Irish name.

Don't fancy the english name, Kingstown...

I allways call it Dunleary (Done-Leery) and thats the way 99% of people living there call it! Only RTÉ and a handful of language activists pronounce it Dún Laoghaire!

Birr was known as Parsonstown and Dangean was known as Phillipstown (the river through it is still called the Phillipstown River).

At least Dingle Co Kerry has had its rightfull name restored.

parsi

MrJoeSoap wrote: »

Never understood the whole Muine Bheag thing myself. One of the few stations I've ever seen without the English town name on the signs.



And up until recently, Broombridge was quite literally referred to ás Gaeilge as Droichead na Scuab. It has since changed to Droichead Broome, since it was named after William Brougham and not an actual broom.

You'd think that when they were renaming it, they would have spelled it as Brougham.

Charleville used have:

" An Rath / Rath Luirc "

Losty Dublin

ThreeLineWhip wrote: »

Irish rail does have a fetish for Irish language names. Until the start of Arrow services Newbridge was only acknowledged by the railway as Droichead Nua.

Also Maryborough survived until 1946 on the railways despite the name being dropped immediately on independence from Britain.

The Irish name probably takes precedence to be a constitutional pedant so perhaps they are right all along

ThreeLineWhip

Droichead Nua is still the legal name of the town, but no one calls it that.

Losty Dublin

ThreeLineWhip wrote: »

Droichead Nua is still the legal name of the town, but no one calls it that.

Say way eveybody says Brayruit, Derry or Stab City?

Hilly Bill

The thing is that the people that want to get off there will already know the name. Tourists only see it while on the way down to Killkenny so it makes no odds to them whats it called.

Jamie2k9

The locals of Muine Bheag need to make better use of the train service provided to the town instead of giving out about the station name.

Why don't people have a rant at Google as they also use Muine Bheag and bagenalstown onlys shows when you zoom in very close.

markpb

Hilly Bill wrote: »

The thing is that the people that want to get off there will already know the name. Tourists only see it while on the way down to Killkenny so it makes no odds to them whats it called.

By that logic, why are any of Irish Rails stations called the same as the town they're in?

juan.kerr

I blame O'Cuiv and his 'An Daingean' crap.

slimjimmc

LordSutch wrote: »

The gist of my point is that Bagnalstown is known as Bagenalstown by everybody except Irish Rail,
who recently renamed the station Muine Bheag against the wishes of the Townspeople.

Most probably do but not everybody. Officialdom and quite a few of the locals that I know there refer to it as Muine Bheag even though many road signs have Bagenalstown as the prominent name.

http://www.carlow.ie/councillors/agendas/Pages/muinebheag-town-council.aspx
http://www.carlowlibraries.ie/librarylocations.html
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2001/en/act/pub/0037/sched6.html#sched6

IR recognise Bagenalstown in their website. Try typing "bagen" into the station locator.
http://www.irishrail.ie/Muine%20Bheag%20(Bagenalstown)

LordSutch wrote: »

who recently renamed the station Muine Bheag against the wishes of the Townspeople.

25 years ago is "recently"?
Renaming occurred in 1988 when the station was reopened after been closed to passengers for the previous 2.5 decades.

Hilly Bill

markpb wrote: »

By that logic, why are any of Irish Rails stations called the same as the town they're in?

If Portlaoise was called Carlow then it would be a bit confusing.

markpb

Hilly Bill wrote: »

If Portlaoise was called Carlow then it would be a bit confusing.

The thing is that the people that want to get off there will already know that's its called Carlow. Tourists only see it while on the way down to Killkenny so it makes no odds to them whats it called.

Hilly Bill

Thats what i said. Was Muine Bheag a gealtacht area at one time?

coylemj

Years ago before area dialling codes, there was a 'Part 2' phone directory covering the entire country outside Dublin and in that directory the Dept. of Posts and Telegraphs insisted that only the Irish name was used for these towns, nobody ever knew why.......

Navan - An Uaimh
Newbridge - Droichead Nua
Bagnelstown - Muibe Beag
Charleville - Rath Luirc
Kells - Ceannus Mor

and possibly a few more that I can't remember so don't blame CIE, those towns must have the Irish name as the official name of the town.

I just studied my Garmin MapSource map of Ireland to see if there was any other towns I forgot about and I notice that on the current (2013.30) map of Ireland when viewing the 20 km and 30 kms scales there is a town between Kildare and Naas called Droichead Nua but once you start to zoom in to levels below 20 kms it changes to Newbridge! Muine Beag however refuses to budge and retains it's Irish name to any zoom level.

On Google Maps they have Muine Beag at all zoom levels, they do call it Bagnelstown as you zoom in but they never drop Muine Beag.

Don't blame Irish Rail or CIE.

Victor

Has anyone asked Irish Rail to change the name?

I found this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk%3AMuine_Bheag

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Did Portillo get to Parsonstown, the site of the first stolen British railway yet???

Do explain.

LordSutch wrote: »

The gist of my point is that Bagnalstown is known as Bagenalstown by everybody except Irish Rail,
who recently renamed the station Muine Bheag against the wishes of the Townspeople.

Was it recent?

ThreeLineWhip wrote: »

Irish rail does have a fetish for Irish language names. Until the start of Arrow services Newbridge was only acknowledged by the railway as Droichead Nua.

Until it was colonised by Dubliners in the 1990s, many people did refer to it as Droichead Nua.

Sponge Bob wrote: »

And what is the Proper English name for that Pesky "Portlaoise" anyway???? , I mean how dare Iarnród Éireann not show it.

As the two spellings are nearly identical, the NRA just does "Port Laoise" http://maps.google.ie/maps?q=portlaoise&hl=en&ll=53.013776,-7.304943&spn=0.00661,0.021136&client=firefox-a&hnear=Portlaoise,+County+Laois&gl=ie&t=m&z=16&layer=c&cbll=53.013738,-7.305146&panoid=Vd_7F6jTcvOep8bE263UfA&cbp=12,97.86,,2,-0.57

slimjimmc wrote: »

Most probably do but not everybody. Officialdom and quite a few of the locals that I know there refer to it as Muine Bheag even though many road signs have Bagenalstown as the prominent name.

All signs, save those in Gaeltacht areas are in that style.

Victor

coylemj wrote: »

Years ago before area dialling codes, there was a 'Part 2' phone directory covering the entire country outside Dublin and in that directory the Dept. of Posts and Telegraphs insisted that only the Irish name was used for these towns, nobody ever knew why.......

Navan - An Uaimh
Newbridge - Droichead Nua
Bagnelstown - Muibe Beag
Charleville - Rath Luirc
Kells - Ceannus Mor

and possibly a few more that I can't remember so don't blame CIE, those towns must have the Irish name as the official name of the town.

I just checked the 2012 phone book and of those 5, Muine Bheag is the only one listed in Irish.

Jamie2k9

Has anyone asked Irish Rail to change the name?

Irish Rail have included both names in the current timetable which is a start. The % of people using the trains couldn't care what the station is called + Irish Rail couldn't afford new signage for the station:rolleyes:

coylemj

Victor wrote: »

I just checked the 2012 phone book and of those 5, Muine Bheag is the only one listed in Irish.

Navan was officially renamed from 'An Uaimh' to 'Navan' by a Statutory Instrument in 1971, that may have happened in the case of the other towns, looks like Muine Beag is the last man standing as far as Irish Rail/CIE is concerned.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1971/en/si/0200.html

Not related to the Irish language issue but someone earlier mentioned Edgeworthstown/Mostrim in Co. Longford, it's name was officially changed to Edgeworthstown in 1974.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1974/en/si/0166.html

coylemj

Why does IR put the word 'station' after the name of the town on the platform signs in certain railway stations? I mean it's not like you think you might be in Athlone airport and not 'Athlone Station' when the train pulls up at the platform!

RevBlueJeans

I remember Frank Hall's satirical tv show of the early 1970's mocking Muine Beag/ Bagnalstown.


Newbridge, Co Kildare is called "Newbridge" and nothing else by locals and this has nothing to do with the population explosion in the 1990's.

This historical article recalls a debate in the early 1960's about Droichead Nua.

gobnaitolunacy

coylemj wrote: »

Why does IR put the word 'station' after the name of the town on the platform signs in certain railway stations? I mean it's not like you think you might be in Athlone airport and not 'Athlone Station' when the train pulls up at the platform!

I've seen the word 'station' appended to some nameboards and not others, don't know what the logic is.

ThreeLineWhip

gobnaitolunacy wrote: »

I've seen the word 'station' appended to some nameboards and not others, don't know what the logic is.

Carlow
Ballinasloe
Athlone

3 that I can think of for now.

davidlacey

Pearse station too

markpb

davidlacey wrote: »

Pearse station too

It's hard enough getting people to call it Pearse instead of Pearse St, don't rock the boat now!