M50 toll cameras to catch unpaid motor tax

pippip

In the indo this morning but can't find the link.

Basically the m50 cameras are going to be used to catch people driving cars with unpaid tax.

Finally someone using their head and connecting two databases.

kona

****

BMJD

that's great news for the vast majority of people who don't use that one section of road

_Kaiser_

BMJD wrote: »

that's great news for the vast majority of people who don't use that one section of road

More here

It is hoped that the system can be extended to other toll roads and speed-check cameras if it is a success.

Just the beginning it seems. Soon to be rolled out to a toll plaza near you - no doubt swiftly followed by ANPR cameras

Guy:Incognito

Sure every section of the m50 will be tolled by the end of 2011.......

_Kaiser_

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

Sure every section of the m50 will be tolled by the end of 2011.......

Normally I'd agree, except:

- They're seriously strapped for cash despite Enda's crowing about "savings" that in reality are just a deferral
- Cameras are already in place along the M50 (and others) for traffic monitoring. I'd imagine it's just a software upgrade to add these extra features

Crimson King

Do you know what, normally I would be the first to get on my high horse about 'big brother' but to be honest car tax is something I believe we all should pay and if the technology is there then why not?

_Kaiser_

Crimson King wrote: »

Do you know what, normally I would be the first to get on my high horse about 'big brother' but to be honest car tax is something I believe we all should pay and if the technology is there then why not?

Agree in principle, but it depends on whether they will allow the month's grace period as indicated on the form (and before that debate starts I'm talking about how on the form it says that if your tax expires on 31/1 you can renew still it online anytime in Feb), or whether they'd be chasing you for non-payment the day after it expired.

Plus it's a slippery slope to ANPR where they'll rake a fortune in from people doing a few km over the limit on roads that in a lot of cases have ridiculously low limits on them.

megafan

pippip wrote: »

In the indo this morning but can't find the link.

Basically the m50 cameras are going to be used to catch people driving cars with unpaid tax.

Finally someone using their head and connecting two databases.

Maybe it's the unpaid household charge tax their after :P

Henry Ford III

OSI wrote: »

A lot of the Traffic Corps cars have ANPR already.

Ticket a minute machines.

_Kaiser_

OSI wrote: »

A lot of the Traffic Corps cars have ANPR already.

It's extremely rare I pass a TC car - even when driving in Dublin. Anytime I have seen them they're usually camped out at the side of a dual-carriageway/motorway.

As a general rule I don't worry too much about the arbitrary limits anyway - That's not to say I go blasting around at 200 km/h either but I'll drive appropriate to the conditions. So, if it's lashing rain/foggy/dark/snowing etc I'll drive slower regardless of what it says on a sign if I feel it necessary in the conditions, but if it's late at night on an empty motorway I may drift a few km over.

Lot more important to be able to read the conditions and traffic around you than numbers on a sign IMO.

pippip

Guy just on Newstalk discussing this and said they did a mini test last year on the M50 and found that 1 in 14 vehicles didn't have up to date tax.

Thats way more than I would have thought.

_Kaiser_

pippip wrote: »

Guy just on Newstalk discussing this and said they did a mini test last year on the M50 and found that 1 in 14 vehicles didn't have up to date tax.

Thats way more than I would have thought.

I would have thought that it'd be much higher actually from a completely unscientific glancing at discs in shopping centre car parks

Bruthal

megafan wrote: »

Maybe it's the unpaid household charge tax their after :P

Yea, tax disks on house windows next

Kenny Logins

pippip wrote: »

Guy just on Newstalk discussing this and said they did a mini test last year on the M50 and found that 1 in 14 vehicles didn't have up to date tax.

Thats way more than I would have thought.

I'd say his camera wasn't working properly.

Peanut2011

pippip wrote: »

Guy just on Newstalk discussing this and said they did a mini test last year on the M50 and found that 1 in 14 vehicles didn't have up to date tax.

Thats way more than I would have thought.

I wonder did they exclude all the non-irish reg plates from that statistic??

pippip

I'm wondering were they counting those using their months grace period

Caliden

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

Normally I'd agree, except:

- They're seriously strapped for cash despite Enda's crowing about "savings" that in reality are just a deferral
- Cameras are already in place along the M50 (and others) for traffic monitoring. I'd imagine it's just a software upgrade to add these extra features

The frame rate/resolution on the traffic monitoring cameras more than likely are not high enough to work with 'just a software upgrade'

munchkin_utd

Peanut2011 wrote: »

I wonder did they exclude all the non-irish reg plates from that statistic??

you would presume the stats are for irish cars not paying irish tax liable on them.

they have no problem recognising foreign numberplates as they havent missed a M50 toll charge on my german reg yoke yet.

Atlantic Dawn

On a recent walk around the city centre I observed atleast 1 in 5 cars parked were untaxed, not all junkboxes either, one was a Range Rover Sport and the other a Merc S320 both over 3 months out of date. It's about time controls like this were brought in, they should put cameras on every major road, I'm sick of paying for these scabs, no tax no drive simple.

listermint

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

On a recent walk around the city centre I observed atleast 1 in 5 cars parked were untaxed, not all junkboxes either, one was a Range Rover Sport and the other a Merc S320 both over 3 months out of date. It's about time controls like this were brought in, they should put cameras on every major road, I'm sick of paying for these scabs, no tax no drive simple.

I agree, However dont be in the failed notion that our rates are high because these people arent paying. If the compliance was 100% the rates would remain unchanged. Its a very easy field to harvest (the motorist)

Bruthal

Caliden wrote: »

The frame rate/resolution on the traffic monitoring cameras more than likely are not high enough to work with 'just a software upgrade'

Why not? All the camera`s need to do is capture number plates, which is their actual function, not tax disks.

seamus

Great. This is about five years overdue. Hopefully they can extend this to all traffic cams, not just the toll roads.

listermint

seamus wrote: »

Great. This is about five years overdue. Hopefully they can extend this to all traffic cams, not just the toll roads.

I wouldnt want to see that happen because it would cost us a bloody fortune to roll out and maintain. Another bloated item off the checklist.

You wouldnt be able to sw upgrade existing traffic cameras to do this, its technically not possible.

Atlantic Dawn

Should mean less traffic on the routes with cameras as the scabs take alternative routes.

Oral Surgeon

Bruthal wrote: »

Yea, tax disks on house windows next

Mods please delete this post, the government may actually like the look of it:eek:

kippy

seamus wrote: »

Great. This is about five years overdue. Hopefully they can extend this to all traffic cams, not just the toll roads.

About time as right.
Any camera that can record a number place that is in the existing camera system should also be able cross reference with tax/insurance/nct information and also used on the major roads to monitor the movements of known criminals.

Bruthal

munchkin_utd wrote: »

you would presume the stats are for irish cars not paying irish tax liable on them.

they have no problem recognising foreign numberplates as they havent missed a M50 toll charge on my german reg yoke yet.

Is it registered for a toll account here?

pippip

The guy on Newstalk also said they were seeking legal advice on the possibility of using the speed camera vans to issue tax fines. But highlighted the fact that the speed vans have always been for road safety and this would be altering their use to revenue generating.

oh the irony!!!!

Corkbah

pippip wrote: »

In the indo this morning but can't find the link.

Basically the m50 cameras are going to be used to catch people driving cars with unpaid tax.

Finally someone using their head and connecting two databases.

further down the line they'll have cameras/readers at traffic lights to detect people running an orange light or driving in the bus lane.

Fairly easy to do and automated enough to ensure a massive intake of money for the stare.

Bruthal

Oral Surgeon wrote: »

Mods please delete this post, the government may actually like the look of it:eek:

There are no worries. If they think that`s a good idea, it wont be used.

EdRedbird

pippip wrote: »

In the indo this morning but can't find the link.

Basically the m50 cameras are going to be used to catch people driving cars with unpaid tax.

Finally someone using their head and connecting two databases.

Well at least, cause foreign licence plates do not Pay toll.
When I drive through France I am forced to pay my Toll's
When they drive here.... on the M50... they get away with it, and don't be mistaken about the amount of International Transport passing there

listermint

pippip wrote: »

The guy on Newstalk also said they were seeking legal advice on the possibility of using the speed camera vans to issue tax fines. But highlighted the fact that the speed vans have always been for road safety and this would be altering their use to revenue generating.

oh the irony!!!!

Well i suppose their is an issue around Data Protection there, I mean you would be putting personal information into private hands.
I would assume some legislation would require alteration for this to go live in some form.

The Bishop Basher

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

I'm sick of paying for these scabs, no tax no drive simple.

So on that basis, if everyone was to start paying their tax, the government would reduce the rates ? I don't think so.

deandean

I am delighted to hear about this move.

I'd say a fair percentage of cars that are untaxed are also uninsured, I would like to see the full letter of the law applied to those drivers.

pa990

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

Agree in principle, but it depends on whether they will allow the month's grace period as indicated on the form (and before that debate starts I'm talking about how on the form it says that if your tax expires on 31/1 you can renew still it online anytime in Feb).......

There is no grace period, what it says on the form is that, that particular form can be used anytime during that particular month, after that month, a new form is needed.
There is no official grace period, although many gardai do give a grace period.

munchkin_utd

Bruthal wrote: »

Is it registered for a toll account here?

yup, ive it (my german reg car) registered as a video account as I cannot be ARSED with the hassle of paying it every time by hand online.

The german authorities (for a fee that makes it worth their while) will gladly execute traffic fines owing to foreign authorities which is why its not in my interest to toll dodge or excessivly speed when outside the country, whether Ireland or elsewhere.

corktina

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

More here



Just the beginning it seems. Soon to be rolled out to a toll plaza near you - no doubt swiftly followed by ANPR cameras

? i say

Mr Simpson

Or they could just bring in Sorn. If you dont fill out a Sorn, you get a fine for no tax in the post. If you do fill one out and you're caught driving, bye bye car.

(SORN= Statuatory Off Road Notification)

GavMan

listermint wrote: »

You wouldnt be able to sw upgrade existing traffic cameras to do this, its technically not possible.

Says who?

As a matter of fact, South Dublin County Council already use existing traffic cameras to estimate journey times on Key roads in the area.

They do this by capturing your number plate at 1 point on the road, capturing it again at another point a few kilometres up the road and then look at the time it took to go from A - B. They do this a number of times to build a sufficient sample size and then take an average of the times.

djimi

MarkMc wrote: »

Or they could just bring in Sorn. If you dont fill out a Sorn, you get a fine for no tax in the post. If you do fill one out and you're caught driving, bye bye car.

(SORN= Statuatory Off Road Notification)

This is a far more sensible approach. The car is either taxed or its declared off the road; there is no middle ground and no room for confusion/abuse.

listermint

GavMan wrote: »

Says who?

As a matter of fact, South Dublin County Council already use existing traffic cameras to estimate journey times on Key roads in the area.

They do this by capturing your number plate at 1 point on the road, capturing it again at another point a few kilometres up the road and then look at the time it took to go from A - B. They do this a number of times to build a sufficient sample size and then take an average of the times.

Oh right, South Dublin... Who installed these cameras in the last 4 years. So you want to go around the country installing brand new cameras all over the place. Yes i think id prefer my exchequer funds to go elsewhere TBH, like new schools that have got thrown on the back burner.

hyperborean

If as one poster pointed out 1 in 14 cars were untaxed in the trial on the M50 we are going to see a big drop in use of the M50, a 7% drop in tolls due to people (without car tax) avoiding would be significant.

110,000 vehicles a day is the current rate,
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/motors/2012/0725/1224320754136.html

7700 would be cars without tax, wow

If they stop using the tolls,

€3 x 7700 is €23,000 per day tolls lost

I would be suprised if the fines on not having tax covers that,

listermint

djimi wrote: »

This is a far more sensible approach. The car is either taxed or its declared off the road; there is no middle ground and no room for confusion/abuse.

Agreed this. And not some crazy admin fee to declare it off the road via SORN either. But knowing the idiots in power whom never had to pay anything out of their own pocket the will have an 80 Euro fee for any SORN.

Expense junkies.

Mr Simpson

djimi wrote: »

This is a far more sensible approach. The car is either taxed or its declared off the road; there is no middle ground and no room for confusion/abuse.

Completely. The idea that you can go into your local cop shop and say 'no guard, I swear I wasnt driving it for the last three months' is complete and utter madness

seamus

djimi wrote: »

This is a far more sensible approach. The car is either taxed or its declared off the road; there is no middle ground and no room for confusion/abuse.

You could declare a car off the road and still drive it anyway. Considering how many people effectively do this by having their cars signed off the road before taxing it, I can see lots of people trying this scam in Ireland.

So you still need the cameras to catch these people.

Mr Simpson

seamus wrote: »

You could declare a car off the road and still drive it anyway. Considering how many people effectively do this by having their cars signed off the road before taxing it, I can see lots of people trying this scam in Ireland.

So you still need the cameras to catch these people.

I agree. But at the moment your tax needs to be out by 60 days before the Guards can seize it. If you have SORN you should lose it immediately.

djimi

seamus wrote: »

You could declare a car off the road and still drive it anyway. Considering how many people effectively do this by having their cars signed off the road before taxing it, I can see lots of people trying this scam in Ireland.

So you still need the cameras to catch these people.

The simple solution would be to seize on the spot any car which is declared off the road and is found to be on a public road/place. Obviously you will still get quite a few who will try this and quite probably get away with it, but I would imagine it would dramatically reduce the number of people who do not pay their car tax. It should also in theory put an end to the 3 months on, 3 months off scam.

munchkin_utd

heres a newstalk article and report on the issue.

50 million euro in revenue lost every year in motor tax

The government hopes to raise up to 50 million euro in lost motor tax revenue every year by using toll cameras on Dublin's M50 to check for motor tax dodgers.

Department of Transport officials are thought to be working on plans to will cross check car registrations of more than 100,000 vehicles that pass through the M50 toll every day with their own tax records.

It's hoped that the system can be extended to other toll roads and speed-check cameras if it is a success.

Treacey Hogan, Environmental Correspondent with the Irish Independent, says it may put people off dodging their tax:

http://newstalk.ie/Toll-cameras-may-be-used-to-catch-out-tax-dodgers

listermint

munchkin_utd wrote: »

heres a newstalk article and report on the issue.


http://newstalk.ie/Toll-cameras-may-be-used-to-catch-out-tax-dodgers

Real story should be 50 Million Euro is lost every year with an incredibly unbalanced Motor Tax system...........

Gran Hermano

Great news but another tax on people who live in Dublin.
I'd suspect the rates of non-compliance and tax dodging to be a lot higher amongst those who spend their time
driving around boreens and knowing the chance of meeting an ANPR equipped car on the way to the mart are slim.