Wall ties

Cavanjack

I'm nearly ready to start building with a 250 full fill cavity wall and have a few questions regarding wall ties. Are the teplo wall ties worth the extra money? They are coming in around three times the price of stainless ones! Can the stainless ties cause condensation on the inside of the house and will the extra money spent on the telpo ever be recovered in heating costs?
Thanks for any replys

Mindful

I have never used teplo so I can't comment on them. What are your reasons for considering them though, given the cost?

If the stainless steel ties are used properly, and your insulation is done right, you should have no worries about heat loss. Again if they are used properly and kept clean, and you use a damp tray, there should be no issues with condensation either.

Mind you I'm an ex builder, not an engineer

Cavanjack

Mindful wrote: »

I have never used teplo so I can't comment on them. What are your reasons for considering them though, given the cost?

If the stainless steel ties are used properly, and your insulation is done right, you should have no worries about heat loss. Again if they are used properly and kept clean, and you use a damp tray, there should be no issues with condensation either.

Mind you I'm an ex builder, not an engineer

The reasons I am considering the telpo ties is to limit heat loss through the walls and for fear of condensation on the inside walls.

Mindful

In my experience if you use the stainless steel ties properly, heat loss and condensation will not be an issue

Divorce Referendum

Cavanjack wrote: »

The reasons I am considering the telpo ties is to limit heat loss through the walls and for fear of condensation on the inside walls.

Is it the teplo ones made of basalt you are looking to use cavan jack?. If it is that type the basalt has a lower conductivity than stainless steel and you will have less heat loss if you use them.

Cavanjack

Divorce Referendum wrote: »

Is it the teplo ones made of basalt you are looking to use cavan jack?. If it is that type the basalt has a lower conductivity than stainless steel and you will have less heat loss if you use them.

Yes thats the one's I'm looking at. I know the stainless ones cant touch them conductivity wise but am Just wondering are they worth the extra money.

Rock12

Hello, I recently constructed a 200mm cavity with 325mm fibre glass wall ties sourced in Ireland and found them a lot cheaper than the teplo tie. I am not sure if this Irish company make ties to suit a 250mm cavity but PM me if you would like the company name.
Personally my reason was to keep my internal mass as a heat store and if you compare the equivalent tie in stainless steel it is quite a substantial cold bridge given the extra ties per square meter in a wide cavity construction.

sas

FClauson recently completed a certified passive house using wide cavity and stainless steel wall ties. So they can be used.

The issue here is that while the thermal conductivity is better with teplo etc. the cost is greater.

You need to determine how many kws per m2 per year you are going to need to provide if you choose the stainless steel over the teplo. Then do your cost benefit analysis. Anything else is guessing.

fealeranger

sas wrote: »

FClauson recently completed a certified passive house using wide cavity and stainless steel wall ties. So they can be used.

The issue here is that while the thermal conductivity is better with teplo etc. the cost is greater.

You need to determine how many kws per m2 per year you are going to need to provide if you choose the stainless steel over the teplo. Then do your cost benefit analysis. Anything else is guessing.

All that analysis is going to cost extra making the wall ties even more expensive. It depends how much you are willing to spend to prevent cold bridging. IMO Over 250mm the cold bridge will not be a big enough issue to justify the cost of the basalt over the steel ties which as far as I am aware is close to double the price if not more. I recently constructed a 300mm cavity full fill cavity with steel ties. Very happy with the result. The steel ties were about €1.50 each.

john_cappa

For wide cavity (250-300) how many are used per metre usually ?

BarneyMc

john_cappa wrote: »

For wide cavity (250-300) how many are used per metre usually ?

Yes, good question. That would give a good idea of what the price difference would be.

fclauson

sas wrote: »

FClauson recently completed a certified passive house using wide cavity and stainless steel wall ties. So they can be used.

....

yes we did - I went for stainless via a firm in Wicklow - two reasons
1 - I have heard that the baslt ties are a menace to get then to sit in the cement properly (only hearsay mind)
2 - price

john_cappa wrote: »

For wide cavity (250-300) how many are used per metre usually ?

Speak with an engineer - answer - LOTS - many more than normal


I am sure there is heat loss through the stainless - but the thermal camara did not pick it up so I am happy

munchers

Is anyone able to give the price they paid for the Teplo or the Qwickfix ones?
Thanks

Shoe Lover

PM Sent

pharmerboy5000

Was just wondering if anyone had any info on pricing of these?

Eoghan Barra

Mindful wrote: »

In my experience if you use the stainless steel ties properly, heat loss and condensation will not be an issue

This document is very interesting on this, especially pages 13-15:

http://www.energysavingtrust.org.uk/Publications2/Housing-professionals/New-build/Fabric-First-October-2010-edition

They found that using low conductivity wall ties does make a very significant difference, which really only stands to reason, given that with steel you are permanently building in thousands of cold bridges throughout the wall.

As previous posters have stated, there are alternatives to Teplo which are considerably cheaper. Give it a few years, and nobody who's serious about energy efficiency will still be using steel wall ties, IMO.

hexosan

john_cappa wrote: »

For wide cavity (250-300) how many are used per metre usually ?

For a 250mm wide cavity using the vartry stainless steel ties you use approximately 4 per M2. That's what I was told when I rang vartry engineering. The actual amount needed for any individual project would have to be decided by your structural engineer

hexosan

pharmerboy5000 wrote: »

Was just wondering if anyone had any info on pricing of these?

Vartry engineering stainless steel
250mm cavity ties .65c
300mm cavity ties .75c

Quix Fix (Irish copy of Teplo)
Max they supply is
200mm cavity tie €1.49 + vat and they have no plans on doing a 250mm or 300mm tie according to their technical dept as the cost of certification is too expensive and they reckon 200mm is a sufficient cavity size. (That's their own words) they offer a discount for quanties over 1500. Plus there's a delivery charge on top. Prices have increased since last year due to increased production costs.

Ancon Teplo Uk
250mm cavity ties £1.92 =€2.22

Longs (irish supplier) Ancon Teplo tie
200mm - €2.71
250mm - €3.08
300mm - €3.32
All of the longs prices include vat.

Hope this helps.

Hex

BarneyMc

What a massive difference in costs between stainless steel and low conductivity wall ties! I suppose it's a matter of calculating the costs V perceived benefits of using the low conductivity ties.

Beginning to wonder whether it's better to go with a 200mm cavity and Quix Fix low conductivity tie OR stick with 250mm cavity and Vartry stainless steel tie. Looking at the above prices it seems like the former might be the best option both in costs and performance!

fclauson

I used 250mm cav with ties from Vartry

they worked - the block workers found the good to work with

Eoghan Barra

I would be very surprised if the only low conductivity wall ties available are Teplo and Qwik-fix. Those shown in fig. 5 (p. 15) of the UK document I mentioned above are neither, and span a 300mm cavity. The text says they are made of 'plastic', so they are unlikely to be that expensive. There are probably quite a number of alternatives if you look into it: wide cavity seems to be the way things are going in this part of the world, and it makes no sense to use such an obviously obsolete (for this application) material as steel.

A little research abroad through the internet and a few phone calls would almost certainly locate cost-effective low conductivity wall ties for 250-300mm cavities that could be shipped at little cost (they're not heavy, unless made of steel). If I wanted to build a 250 or 300mm cavity, that's the avenue I'd be going down, not steel (why consciously create thousands of cold bridges?), or Teplo (way too dear).

In fact, that could be an opportunity for any enterprising spirit out there: start importing them if you find them; there's no doubt that a - growing - demand would be there for a reasonably priced product.

hexosan

Ive amended my previous post with the correct prices just of the phone with longs.

hexosan

I cant wrap my head around the prices that are been charged for basalt ties at those prices I can't imagine there's anyone using them. Perhaps if they dropped the price there would be a larger up take.
Personally I can't ever see the extra outlay been recouped in energy savings over using stainless steel ties at a fifth of the cost.

Eoghan Barra

BarneyMc wrote: »

Beginning to wonder whether it's better to go with a 200mm cavity and Quix Fix low conductivity tie OR stick with 250mm cavity and Vartry stainless steel tie. Looking at the above prices it seems like the former might be the best option both in costs and performance!

That was the conclusion I came to as well (i.e. 200mm with Qwik-fix), though that was a couple of years ago, and there was still some debate about the structural stability of wide cavity, so I felt safer with 200mm (we were building in a pretty exposed location too). The stability issue rarely, as far as I am aware, seems to be raised now, and I can understand anyone building now wanting to go wider than 200mm: I probably would if I was starting over - still with low conductivity ties, though.

BarneyMc

Eoghan Barra wrote: »

I can understand anyone building now wanting to go wider than 200mm: I probably would if I was starting over - still with low conductivity ties, though.

Even at those prices? :eek:

Eoghan Barra

BarneyMc wrote: »

Even at those prices? :eek:

Hi Barney, you mustn't have read my previous post!

fealeranger

I built the 300mm cacity with the Vartry steel wall ties. The ties are 425mm in length with one drop. No issues and block layer was happy with them. They were applied 4 per Msq and at every opening they were spaced every block or doubled. The heat loss accross a wide cavity is minimal even with steel wall ties. I thought they cost around €1.18+VAT but I stand corrected on this. Even the basalt and other materials used to make wall ties will still have a factor of cold bridging so is anybody willing to put pen to paper and maybe calculate the cost of the wall ties against the cost of heat loss over a 30 year period and see if there are significant savings to be made using basalt over steel in wide cavity construction. I don't think it will be even worth talking about.

Eoghan Barra

fealeranger wrote: »

I built the 300mm cacity with the Vartry steel wall ties. The ties are 425mm in length with one drop. No issues and block layer was happy with them. They were applied 4 per Msq and at every opening they were spaced every block or doubled. The heat loss accross a wide cavity is minimal even with steel wall ties. I thought they cost around €1.18+VAT but I stand corrected on this. Even the basalt and other materials used to make wall ties will still have a factor of cold bridging so is anybody willing to put pen to paper and maybe calculate the cost of the wall ties against the cost of heat loss over a 30 year period and see if there are significant savings to be made using basalt over steel in wide cavity construction. I don't think it will be even worth talking about.

A few points here:

1. As I remember it, steel wall ties are more conductive than low conductivity ties (I'm thinking specifically of Qwik-fix) by a factor of about 100. That is not a minor difference.

2. It will not be possible to calculate how much you will save in heating costs over the next 30 years, because that calculation will be based on present prices, which are likely to increase, possibly exponentially over that duration.

3. My understanding of these things is that a wall (for example) with a given u-value, but with very limited cold bridging, will function better than a wall with the same u-value but with lots of cold bridging (i.e. wider cavity to compensate for steel wall ties).

4. As I've already stated above, the Teplo ties are way over-priced: I'd be looking for more cost-effective alternatives, which I bet can be found with a little effort.

fclauson

Ideally the wall ties have be certified and there are I believe only two Basalt ties which are (there are to my knowledge NO plastic wall ties currently certified)

Now you can use uncertified products providing your engineer will do the maths and be happy to sign off on them

The Varty ties are not certified but as quoted elsewhere on this forum by me there is an approved testing regime which will allow them to be used (again subject to you engineer signing off)

Plastic/synthetic would be the way to go and I am sure they could be manufactured but to date the have not been .

BarneyMc

Eoghan Barra wrote: »

Hi Barney, you mustn't have read my previous post!

Assuming they can be sourced Eoghan... will start the Google engines and see what happens but not too hopeful

BarneyMc

Came across this on my t'internet travels, U values on the bottom of page 1 might be of interest: http://magmatech.co.uk/downloads/TeploTie.pdf

Eoghan Barra

BarneyMc wrote: »

Came across this on my t'internet travels, U values on the bottom of page 1 might be of interest: http://magmatech.co.uk/downloads/TeploTie.pdf

"The calculated U-Value for the walls [using teplo ties] is 0.12W/(m2K). The same walls with stainless steel wall ties would have a U-Value of 0.17W/(m2K) (-42% less thermally efficient)."

Wow!

Eoghan Barra

BarneyMc wrote: »

Assuming they can be sourced Eoghan... will start the Google engines and see what happens but not too hopeful

Why don't you get in touch with the Energy Saving Trust in the U.K? They show another brand of low conductivity ties for 300mm cavities in that document I gave the link to above.

Talk to the right person, and they should be able to give you a few pointers.

fclauson

just to add some further comment to this - lets assume your external walls are 269 SqM (which is what mine is)

the difference between 0.12 and 0.17 @ 10degrees delta (i.e. 20 degrees inside 10 degrees outside) amounts to a difference of 155 watts (approx.)
or for a whole day 3Kw @ 8c per unit = 24c per day on the days you have this difference and no solar gain

so its negligible !!!!

back to the mantra I used to build my house
Passive
Practical
Price sensitive
Pragmatic

Eoghan Barra

fclauson wrote: »

just to add some further comment to this - lets assume your external walls are 269 SqM (which is what mine is)

the difference between 0.12 and 0.17 @ 10degrees delta (i.e. 20 degrees inside 10 degrees outside) amounts to a difference of 155 watts (approx.)
or for a whole day 3Kw @ 8c per unit = 24c per day on the days you have this difference and no solar gain

so its negligible !!!!

back to the mantra I used to build my house
Passive
Practical
Price sensitive
Pragmatic

While I think your mantra is in general a very good one, fclauson, I think you're mistaken on this particular issue.

First of all, to make every calculation based on how much extra or less it might cost to heat a house at the present time misses the point that energy costs will almost certainly rise in real terms - probably exponentially - over the lifetime of the building, as I said before. In fact, it is probably true to say that taking that approach would render the whole idea of passive uneconomical at the present time, which probably goes a long way to explaining why only a very tiny minority of houses being built are even aiming for anything like passive standard, despite the current building regs not being too far off.

Secondly, I'm sure you'll agree that the negative side of cold bridging shouldn't only be seen in terms of u-value: there is more to it than that. To take a (very) extreme example, if you decided to put in single-glaze windows for cost reasons, and bumped up the wall insulation to a massive degree to compensate, that house will still not be comfortable. You will feel cold anywhere near the windows, and they will be dripping in condensation due to the contrast with the highly insulated walls. While the effects of condensation due to steel wall ties may not be quite so obvious, it will still be there, which is not ideal.

However, while it will be possible to replace those single-glaze windows further down the line, when wall ties are in, they stay in. The layer of insulation in the cavity will always be compromised by thousands of cold bridges.

Finally, given that Passive building seeks a u-value of less than 0.16, the jump from 0.12 to 0.17 (in the example provided by Teplo) is more than significant (42% less thermally efficient is more than significant any way you want to look at it).

Anyway, that's my opinion on the matter: people will make up their own mind. Nevertheless, I do totally agree with you that compromise according to available funds and many other factors is always an inescapable part of building, especially an energy efficient house.

rockabaloo

Panicking over extra low u-values only makes sense if you look at it from an environmental point of view. If you're looking at things purely from a fiscal point of view then you'll spend more achieving your low u-values than you'll ever save from using less energy.

You could save the same amount of money by just not turning your heating on during one cold day in the winter and wearing three jumpers instead!!

fclauson

So I have popped these numbers in to PHPP

I got certified at 13Kwh/M2/Annum (actually 12.9)
using a teplo or similar tie brings this down to 11.2 - so that 1.8 kwh/m2/annum difference

at 350 TFA that's 630 Kwh/annum (€50 @ 8c/unit)

BUT - opening a window or leaving the door open for a the dog or not closing the sliders as the temp drops of a summer evening means lost Kwh

Having now lived in the house for 8 months we have used 1384 Kw of elec for heating - I do not believe this would drop by 630 Kw if I had used teplo wall ties !!!!

PHPP suggests that the annual figure will be 4550Kwh so we are ahead of the model by some 30% I reckon despite the coldest Arpil/May/June since whenever

I'll publish full year figures in November

I totally agree you need to do the numbers - but you have to draw the line somewhere

Eoghan Barra

fclauson wrote: »

So I have popped these numbers in to PHPP

I got certified at 13Kwh/M2/Annum (actually 12.9)
using a teplo or similar tie brings this down to 11.2 - so that 1.8 kwh/m2/annum difference

at 350 TFA that's 630 Kwh/annum (€50 @ 8c/unit)

BUT - opening a window or leaving the door open for a the dog or not closing the sliders as the temp drops of a summer evening means lost Kwh

Having now lived in the house for 8 months we have used 1384 Kw of elec for heating - I do not believe this would drop by 630 Kw if I had used teplo wall ties !!!!

PHPP suggests that the annual figure will be 4550Kwh so we are ahead of the model by some 30% I reckon despite the coldest Arpil/May/June since whenever

I'll publish full year figures in November

I totally agree you need to do the numbers - but you have to draw the line somewhere

With respect, I have to repeat what I said in my last post, which is that making judgements based solely on u-values, and the cost of energy now, is not the right approach when building an energy efficient house, and it is one that would probably render the whole idea of passive uneconomical at present.

As I said, I absolutely agree with you that compromises must be made when building, but eliminating cold bridging is one of the fundamental principles of any serious approach to energy efficient building, and not only because of its effect on u-values. So in my opinion wall ties are one detail that should not be compromised.

(Though as I have said, I would be looking for a more cost-effective alternative to Teplo over 200mm, and QF for 200mm. I refuse to believe there are only 3 makes of low conductivity ties currently available in all Europe, or even just the U.K.)

But I suspect this could go on and on... so perhaps we should just agree to differ on this.

BarneyMc

I did a few calculations this evening and found my total wall area to be 391 sq meters.

Estimates are 3 wall ties per sq meter with extra around openings so 4 per sq meter is a rough guide overall (although I think this is worst case).

At 4 per sq meter that means 1565 ties.

The Vartry SS for 250mm cavity @ 0.68 each = €1,063 (inc. VAT)
The Teplo for 250mm cavity @ 2.50 each = €3,912 (inc. VAT)

That's €2,849 extra for the Teplo ties (estimated)!

I got quotes for the above prices myself so they are accurate. Hexosan, can you please let me know if you got the UK price quote from Teplo from a supplier up north?

hexosan

BarneyMc wrote: »

I did a few calculations this evening and found my total wall area to be 391 sq meters.

Estimates are 3 wall ties per sq meter with extra around openings so 4 per sq meter is a rough guide overall (although I think this is worst case).

At 4 per sq meter that means 1565 ties.

The Vartry SS for 250mm cavity @ 0.68 each = €1,063 (inc. VAT)
The Teplo for 250mm cavity @ 2.50 each = €3,912 (inc. VAT)

That's €2,849 extra for the Teplo ties (estimated)!

I got quotes for the above prices myself so they are accurate. Hexosan, can you please let me know if you got the UK price quote from Teplo from a supplier up north?

The price I quoted for the Teplo ties was direct from the company in the UK. I got the price a couple of months ago when I was looking into basalt ties. The price may have risen as the sale rep in quik fix did say produce costs have increased for basalt ties. Ill contact them again tomorrow and get an up to date price & repost.

fclauson

BarneyMc wrote: »

I did a few calculations this evening and found my total wall area to be 391 sq meters.

Estimates are 3 wall ties per sq meter with extra around openings so 4 per sq meter is a rough guide overall (although I think this is worst case).

At 4 per sq meter that means 1565 ties.

The Vartry SS for 250mm cavity @ 0.68 each = €1,063 (inc. VAT)
The Teplo for 250mm cavity @ 2.50 each = €3,912 (inc. VAT)

That's €2,849 extra for the Teplo ties (estimated)!

I got quotes for the above prices myself so they are accurate. Hexosan, can you please let me know if you got the UK price quote from Teplo from a supplier up north?

Check with your engineer - mine made me do one every row for a 250mm cavity so the number needed was even more

BryanF

fclauson
what are the wall ties (w/mk) and given you have the at every course what phpp % did you input

fclauson

Wall U value (block/250mm full fill/block) 0.169 U value with 0.10% wall ties

This figure is probably too high as the ties are 15.6mm^2
so at 4 / M2 = 0.0006%
and at 8/M2 = 0.012%

ht9zni1gs28crp

So im confused slightly, FClauson did you use Teplo in the end of standard SS ties?

BarneyMc

Stella Many Trolley wrote: »

So im confused slightly, FClauson did you use Teplo in the end of standard SS ties?

He used SS ties.

BarneyMc

BarneyMc wrote: »

I did a few calculations this evening and found my total wall area to be 391 sq meters.

Estimates are 3 wall ties per sq meter with extra around openings so 4 per sq meter is a rough guide overall (although I think this is worst case).

At 4 per sq meter that means 1565 ties.

The Vartry SS for 250mm cavity @ 0.68 each = €1,063 (inc. VAT)
The Teplo for 250mm cavity @ 2.50 each = €3,912 (inc. VAT)

That's €2,849 extra for the Teplo ties (estimated)!

I got quotes for the above prices myself so they are accurate. Hexosan, can you please let me know if you got the UK price quote from Teplo from a supplier up north?

I contacted Qwik-Fix today regarding their 200mm glass fibre wall ties. Just 3 are required per square meter (figures below for this reflect this, i.e. 1173 x 200mm ties).

Anyway just thought it would be useful to see how a 200mm cavity would compare. The new comparison table now looks like (all prices inc. of VAT):

The Vartry SS for 250mm cavity @ €0.68 each = €1,063
The Qwik-Fix glass fibre for 200mm cavity @ €1.78 each = €2,088
The Teplo for 250mm cavity @ €2.50 each = €3,912

Eoghan Barra

BarneyMc wrote: »

The Qwik-Fix glass fibre for 200mm cavity @ €1.78 each

They must have whacked up their prices big time!

I paid €1.06 each incl. vat & del. for these less than 2 years ago. I think they get them produced in India, if I'm not mistaken, and I bet they cost peanuts to make. Usual story...

(Though none of that is to say the product isn't a good one; quality-wise I would be happy to use them again if I was building a 200mm cavity.)

BarneyMc

Yes you're right Eoghan, the chap there said the new stock they got in was more expensive... pity!

fclauson

BarneyMc wrote: »

....Just 3 are required per square meter .
...

Please check with you engineer - wind loads are Ireland are higher than that in the UK

Check the planning regs/TGD for details

hexosan

Fclauson when you were planning your build did you ever do a costing on a 200mm full fill with the quix fix ties.

fclauson

no