Abolish Motor tax with higher prices at the pumps?

davet82

Can we not jus abolish this pain in the arse tax?

What is the point of it? Besides the fact our roads are in shíte anyways, but I know our councils need the money so why not just it add the tax to the price of fuel?

I know that might not be that popular but I reckon it would eliminate lots of things that arise from the current system...

1. Fraud, getting the car stamped by the local guard or switching ownership every few months to avoid paying the tax

2. The army of public servents who are in motor and tax offices collecting this tax, now that the driving licences have been out sourced out would that not free up people to move to places where we do need staff. Also motor tax offices could be closed and sold or saving on expensive rent for these buildings.

3. It would be fairer, you use your car more, you use our roads more, you should pay more. The bigger a car the more petrol it uses so i reckon it would balance out.

4. Free up gardi to concentrate on real crime instead of setting up check points to catch tax avoiders or chasing them down for non payment of fines arising from it, they can concentrate on real crime. We have dedicated courts for traffic offences, i'd bet half them offences are for no tax, big savings to be made cutting that bullshít out i'd imagine

5. The hassle of paying car tax, the queuing up if you dont have a computer or you miss the payment date. I'd rather 'pay as I go' anyways

anyways if somebody would like to reply to my idea and reasoning and then ripping them to shreds please do so, its only a thought

seamus

Ideally you would just lob it all on fuel - if you drive more, you pay more. But the border up North presents the problem of fuel tourism if we were to go that route.

They're going to bring in SORN (statutory off-road notices) soon enough anyway, which will eliminate 95% of the problems with it.

davet82

seamus wrote: »

Ideally you would just lob it all on fuel - if you drive more, you pay more. But the border up North presents the problem of fuel tourism if we were to go that route.

They're going to bring in SORN (statutory off-road notices) soon enough anyway, which will eliminate 95% of the problems with it.

i wonder how much would be put on a litre of petrol to fill the gap in the motor tax, but you are right that would probably take some thinking to get around.

As for the tax advoidance you can still sign the car over to a family member and avoid paying the tax, with taxes there always a will to avoid paying them. Even with the new system there will be just some people who wil avoid paying it also with excuses we haven't even thought of yet. Also new systems, new expense just get rid of it imo

Where To

€10 a litre for private users
€1 a litre for commercial users.

I'd be happy with that.

Boombastic

The tolls on the roads should more than cover their upkeep. Abolish motor tax. Do not add it on to the fuel.

MadYaker

What difference does it make were still paying the same amount. Costs me around €115 to fill my car and I pay about €600 a year in tax. I drive a lot so this would wind up costing more overall for me. So no thanks.

davet82

Where To wrote: »

€10 a litre for private users
€1 a litre for commercial users.

I'd be happy with that.

i agree but not at that ratio...

there could be a compromise to help out business

Hondo75

I think the Italians do something like that.

davet82

MadYaker wrote: »

What difference does it make were still paying the same amount. Costs me around €115 to fill my car and thats bad enough.

the difference could be millions of euros saved enforcing this stupid tax and may result in only a small rise at the pumps, i think its fairer too

sumeas

Agreed, abolish tax and enforcing costs

Defiler Of The Coffin

It's a good idea that's done the rounds before. Seems fair to me that those who use the roads more pay more. Now if they could only figure out a better way of collecting tolls...

seamus

davet82 wrote: »

i wonder how much would be put on a litre of petrol to fill the gap in the motor tax, but you are right that would probably take some thinking to get around.

Do some fairly simple sums based on averages and it can be worked out.

For example, if we say that the average car is a 1.5 litre petrol, doing 16,000km per year at an efficiency of 10L/100km, then we know that car consumes 1,600L of petrol per year.

Assuming that the average motor tax paid under the current system is €400 per year, then our current motor tax income is maintained by abolishing motor tax and adding 25c to each litre of petrol.

Simple.

Caliden

MadYaker wrote: »

What difference does it make were still paying the same amount. Costs me around €115 to fill my car and I pay about €600 a year in tax. I drive a lot so this would wind up costing more overall for me. So no thanks.

Difference would be you essentially turn the roads into a 'pay as you go' system where the amount you pay is based on your usage as opposed to a system where you pay a flat fee (motor tax) plus usage fees (fuel costs).

Edit: In your case, if your WEEKLY fuel bill is 115 Euro and fuel costs go up 10%, the yearly increase is 598 euro which is equivalent to your 600 motor tax bill but that's only if your weekly bill is consistent. You end up saving money if it's less than that.

SEPT 23 1989

Thats way to sensible an idea for the chimps in the Ministry of Finance

niallu

MadYaker wrote: »

What difference does it make were still paying the same amount. Costs me around €115 to fill my car and I pay about €600 a year in tax. I drive a lot so this would wind up costing more overall for me. So no thanks.

Well you use the road more, and you have higher emmissions, so why shouldn't you pay more?

Although my car is in the second higest band of emissions (224gr so 1,200€ tax pa). I only cover 6k kilometers per year, so i would bet my right testicle that im not producing as many emissions as you.

Not interested in hearing suggestions to buy a diesel.... as i bought the car knowing how much it would cost to run and was still happy to do it.

However, at this point it would be peachy (for me) to abolish the annual tax and increase the price at the pumps.

Banjo String

Why do that when they can do both OP?

Rise road tax each year, and rise fuel tax also?

This is FG we're on about after all. Aka Hungry Heurs.

seamus

This would even a be a good idea from an environmental view, from the car industry's view and the high-mileagers point of view.

The present system encourages an "I paid for the road, therefore I'm going to bloody well use it" attitude, whereas a PAYG system removes this and people may look at how much they can save on tax by not driving unless they need to.

If you have a car sitting in your driveway that costs €500 a year before you even take it out, then you're going to use it more. But if the car costs you nothing to have it sitting there, then you won't use it quite so much.

Irishcrx

But then the poor government might loose out the much needed monies to support our failing banks , think about it what if 'Tom' doesn't need his car during the day for work and only uses it on the weekend they can only bend him over for fuel two days of the week.

But with the current system they can get his €600 a year up front and then give him a lash at the pumps as well.

Government will suite themselves as always , not the people. Great idea though.

geeky

davet82 wrote: »

Can we not jus abolish this pain in the arse tax?

What is the point of it? Besides the fact our roads are in shíte anyways, but I know our councils need the money so why not just it add the tax to the price of fuel?

I know that might not be that popular but I reckon it would eliminate lots of things that arise from the current system...

1. Fraud, getting the car stamped by the local guard or switching ownership every few months to avoid paying the tax

2. The army of public servents who are in motor and tax offices collecting this tax, now that the driving licences have been out sourced out would that not free up people to move to places where we do need staff. Also motor tax offices could be closed and sold or saving on expensive rent for these buildings.

3. It would be fairer, you use your car more, you use our roads more, you should pay more. The bigger a car the more petrol it uses so i reckon it would balance out.

4. Free up gardi to concentrate on real crime instead of setting up check points to catch tax avoiders or chasing them down for non payment of fines arising from it, they can concentrate on real crime. We have dedicated courts for traffic offences, i'd bet half them offences are for no tax, big savings to be made cutting that bullshít out i'd imagine

5. The hassle of paying car tax, the queuing up if you dont have a computer or you miss the payment date. I'd rather 'pay as I go' anyways

anyways if somebody would like to reply to my idea and reasoning and then ripping them to shreds please do so, its only a thought

It's an attractive idea but a previous poster had it right: you'd run the risk of 'fuel tourism', particularly in border counties.

You'd also give a big incentive to use illegal fuel stations - which we already have a problem with. Last year, a retail group reported that up to 12% of diesel is illegal green diesel. The Garda resources we save checking for tax could well be swallowed up checking for this. And checkpoints will still be needed for insurance.

Aside from that, there's the risk of fuel retailers not passing the tax on in full. I don't know how much of a problem this is at the moment, but trusting the private sector to collect a big chunk of the tax take (as with VAT) is a risk.

Finally, this money would presumably be going in to central Government coffers, as fuel retail chains stretch across county lines. And when that happens, the Government usually isn't all that pushed about disbursing it to local authorities. So you'd lose the (admittedly rough) link between the number of cars in the area and the funding that they provide for road upkeep.

The fuel retailers would go ballistic, as they're wont to do with anything that they think would possibly impact on demand. That wouldn't be a reason not to do it, but the other problems I've raised would need to be addressed before this became viable. Sorry OP, but fair play for putting forward an interesting idea.

Think Australia does this.. Clever and simple system. A lot more people would be willing to hop on public transport more often if they hadn't paid a big sum of tax for the year.

Tim the Enchanter

Where To wrote: »

€10 a litre for private users
€1 a litre for commercial users.

I'd be happy with that.

:eek: How much??? I put approx 40 litres a week into my car, thats €400 a week on fuel??? Current annual car tax is €390.

not yet

Where To wrote: »

€10 a litre for private users
€1 a litre for commercial users.

I'd be happy with that.

Better still lets eat all the private drivers and give commerical drivers their cars.....

Where To

not yet wrote: »

Better still lets eat all the private drivers and give commerical drivers there cars.....

Too drastic, we need them to purchase our goods and services.

I like your way of thinking though. . .

ejmaztec

The government could decide to increase fuel tax to replace motor tax, but they'd probably change their minds later on and reintroduce it, and still keep on collecting the extra tax on fuel, by changing its name to something else.

Where To

Tim the Enchanter wrote: »

:eek: How much??? I put approx 40 litres a week into my car, thats €400 a week on fuel??? Current annual car tax is €390.

It would separate the wood from the trees, that's for sure. I wouldn't have a car myself only it's kind of conducive to my work, maybe an old tractor for turf but that would be it.

reganreggie

As for closing motor tax offices the Nutgrove branch is closed and there are rumors the the Clondalkin branch will be next. Its also likely that motor tax staff will be redeployed in september when the drivers licences go.

SEPT 23 1989

reganreggie wrote: »

As for closing motor tax offices the Nutgrove branch is closed and there are rumors the the Clondalkin branch will be next. Its also likely that motor tax staff will be redeployed in september when the drivers licences go.

Is the Clondalkin one not very busy all the time?

jjbrien

Where To wrote: »

€10 a litre for private users
€1 a litre for commercial users.

I'd be happy with that.

Erm no what do people who live down the country who have no public transport? If you did that the goverment would have to provide public transport in places where none exist.

seamus

Like passports, the motor tax offices will eventually be completely abolished, with 99% of renewals being done online or by post. There'll be one, or maybe two walk-in offices (Dublin and Cork) for people who need it today, but otherwise there'll be no counters for people to go to. I haven't had to queue at a motor tax office in years, thank fnck.

sfwcork

i say we abolish all tax..hows that sound buachaill's

Where To

jjbrien wrote: »

Erm no what do people who live down the country who have no public transport? If you did that the goverment would have to provide public transport in places where none exist.

Exactly.;) Well, either that or more people will live in towns where the transport links are already available.

Either way, win win.

Capt'n Midnight

seamus wrote: »

Do some fairly simple sums based on averages and it can be worked out.

For example, if we say that the average car is a 1.5 litre petrol, doing 16,000km per year at an efficiency of 10L/100km, then we know that car consumes 1,600L of petrol per year.

Assuming that the average motor tax paid under the current system is €400 per year, then our current motor tax income is maintained by abolishing motor tax and adding 25c to each litre of petrol.

Simple.

fuel tourism would only affect people close to the border and fuel smugglers

also if it works here the UK might adopt it instead of using GPS for road tolling

Alternatively the Northern Ireland Assembly could simply match prices with us , more money in their pockets and they could cut taxes elsewhere.


Since it's a tax commerical users could claim some of it back depending on how the guberment felt

billbond4

Yeah its a simple idea, i suggested it to the current Minister of the Environment and im currently waiting a response.
It makes sense as the polluter pays and thats the point of all the Carbon Tax malarkey.
But as i always say, "if it makes sense,they wont do it"

BOHtox

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UWZaePvABRY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OVY2ugp8xL8

Death and Taxes

davet82 wrote: »

Can we not jus abolish this pain in the arse tax?

What is the point of it? Besides the fact our roads are in shíte anyways, but I know our councils need the money so why not just it add the tax to the price of fuel?

I know that might not be that popular but I reckon it would eliminate lots of things that arise from the current system...

1. Fraud, getting the car stamped by the local guard or switching ownership every few months to avoid paying the tax

2. The army of public servents who are in motor and tax offices collecting this tax, now that the driving licences have been out sourced out would that not free up people to move to places where we do need staff. Also motor tax offices could be closed and sold or saving on expensive rent for these buildings.

3. It would be fairer, you use your car more, you use our roads more, you should pay more. The bigger a car the more petrol it uses so i reckon it would balance out.

4. Free up gardi to concentrate on real crime instead of setting up check points to catch tax avoiders or chasing them down for non payment of fines arising from it, they can concentrate on real crime. We have dedicated courts for traffic offences, i'd bet half them offences are for no tax, big savings to be made cutting that bullshít out i'd imagine

5. The hassle of paying car tax, the queuing up if you dont have a computer or you miss the payment date. I'd rather 'pay as I go' anyways

anyways if somebody would like to reply to my idea and reasoning and then ripping them to shreds please do so, its only a thought

i,m with you, I have been saying the same thing for years, its a fairer method too, the more you drive the more you pay.

HondaSami

WileyCoyote wrote: »

i,m with you, I have been saying the same thing for years, its a fairer method too, the more you drive the more you pay.

I agree with the more you drive the more you pay but what about passengers, when do they pay? They are using the roads as well.

davet82

HondaSami wrote: »

I agree with the more you drive the more you pay but what about passengers, when do they pay? They are using the roads as well.

get yourself a taxi meter

seamus

HondaSami wrote: »

I agree with the more you drive the more you pay but what about passengers, when do they pay? They are using the roads as well.

Carrying a passenger increases fuel consumption, meaning the driver will have to pay more tax when he carries passengers. Problem solved.

Death and Taxes

HondaSami wrote: »

I agree with the more you drive the more you pay but what about passengers, when do they pay? They are using the roads as well.

Yes but HS pannagers don't pay at the moment either.
Other countries dont have road/motor tax and it works for them.

HondaSami

davet82 wrote: »

get yourself a taxi meter

good idea

some people only use cars at the weekend, they might get a lift to work during the week, they would still use the road as much as the driver but pay less.
Basically the driver who drives the most is paying for everyone else to have good roads etc

Death and Taxes

Where To wrote: »

€10 a litre for private users
€1 a litre for commercial users.

I'd be happy with that.

Now now you scallywag, the same charge should apply to all users at point of purchase, after all taxis dont get a cheaper charge at toll bridges/toll roads.

nice try though:D

awec

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

fuel tourism would only affect people close to the border and fuel smugglers

also if it works here the UK might adopt it instead of using GPS for road tolling

Alternatively the Northern Ireland Assembly could simply match prices with us , more money in their pockets and they could cut taxes elsewhere.


Since it's a tax commerical users could claim some of it back depending on how the guberment felt

I don't think so.

When the price of fuel down here was significantly lower than in NI, you had people from NI driving for over an hour to go over the border and fill their car and their boot with cans of fuel.

Realistically, it's going to appeal to anyone within an hours drive of the border. That's a big whack of people. You will have people from Cork, Kerry etc complaining that they are paying to subsidise the lack of payment from those in the top half of the country. From Dublin to the border is little over an hour.

As someone who regularly visits the north, I'd be all for it, I'd never have to pay a cent in motor tax again.

Trhiggy83

Everyone here is full of very good ideas to make the system fairer but the government does not want the system to be fair, they just want as much CASH as possible. That is the sad truth of the matter and its sickening

Chuck Stone

A flat tax on fuel as replacement for MTx would burden working commuters and benefit people who are in a position to use their cars primarily for leisure.

Raising the price of fuel would also hit lower and middle income earners who depend on their cars comparatively more than the wealthy (as all flat taxes and levies do).

Senior citizens (who've been largely shielded from austerity) and people on the dole who have less need to use their cars would benefit too.

Is that fair?

Boombastic

seamus wrote: »

Carrying a passenger increases fuel consumption, meaning the driver will have to pay more tax when he carries passengers. Problem solved.

Driving with the window rolled down also increases fuel consumption, this would just be a sneaky way of making us pay for the air:mad:

MadYaker

niallu wrote: »

Well you use the road more, and you have higher emmissions, so why shouldn't you pay more?

Although my car is in the second higest band of emissions (224gr so 1,200€ tax pa). I only cover 6k kilometers per year, so i would bet my right testicle that im not producing as many emissions as you.

Not interested in hearing suggestions to buy a diesel.... as i bought the car knowing how much it would cost to run and was still happy to do it.

However, at this point it would be peachy (for me) to abolish the annual tax and increase the price at the pumps.

Actually now that I think about my mileage wouldn't be that high. I drive every day but its only short distances. I rarely make longer trips to dublin or limerick, maybe once or twice a month.

chinwag

It would probably suit me living in a city and would be cheaper to administer but I can see how it would be more of a problem for people in rural parts and those who have a higher commute through no fault of their own.
Also, it might just suit the govt to increase motor and fuel tax separately, a single hefty increase covering both of them could be perceived by many motorists as being more drastic, possibly more so with the convoluted and distracting motor tax being absent.

Mick ah

Abolishing motor tax and replacing it with an increase in the tax on fuel makes perfect sense. For the reasons outlined by the OP.

However, think of all those bástards who don't pay their car tax. They'd kick up stink about finally having to contribute. . . like the rest of us.

COYVB

davet82 wrote: »

i wonder how much would be put on a litre of petrol to fill the gap in the motor tax, but you are right that would probably take some thinking to get around.

As for the tax advoidance you can still sign the car over to a family member and avoid paying the tax, with taxes there always a will to avoid paying them. Even with the new system there will be just some people who wil avoid paying it also with excuses we haven't even thought of yet. Also new systems, new expense just get rid of it imo

Assuming the average car (that is to say of all taxed cars in the country) fills with 50 litres per week, that's 2,600 litres per car, per year. Motor tax in Ireland is, what, between €300 and €500? So you'd need to add 20c a litre to cover it, give or take.

Assuming my maths isn't completely wide of the mark there.

7 7 12

COYVB wrote: »

Assuming the average car (that is to say of all taxed cars in the country) fills with 50 litres per week, that's 2,600 litres per car, per year. Motor tax in Ireland is, what, between €300 and €500? So you'd need to add 20c a litre to cover it, give or take.

Assuming my maths isn't completely wide of the mark there.

20c wouldn't even be the biggest increase in the last few years.

This would free up a LOT of garda time and resources, at a point when garda stations are closing and our country (rural ireland in particular) is under siege from burglars.

They should add insurance costs and nct also into the price of litre of petrol (say 10c/l for insurance and 12c/l for nct)

Then it would eliminate the need for checkpoints entirely.

Mick ah

7 7 12 wrote: »

They should add insurance costs and nct also into the price of litre of petrol (say 10c/l for insurance and 12c/l for nct)

As a young man that would be heaven, but lets not get ahead of ourselves.

Although it works in places like Romania and Australia, there are too many here who only pay "a little" for their insurance and are happy to continue to do so. Some people have never forked out (a lot) more than their car is worth for third party