Thinking of joining Betfair..

Slattsy

Hey lads,

I'm sure most of you regular posters are avid users of Betfair.
I'm thinking of getting on the bandwagon, a few years late I know.

My main concern is getting the time that's needed to do the laying side of things and to get my head round it.

Anyone have some tips, information, generic rules of thumb, pros, cons for me?

Any thoughts appreciated.

Nulty

There used to be a sticky thread here about betfair. Search for it

Nulty

Doin it for the kids

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=51131966

Slattsy

7 years ago. Jesus. Didn't realise it was around that long.

Thanks.

faoile@n

Why are you worried about the laying side of things?

You don't have to lay horses on betfair and most folk just use it to back horses.

Start off with small stakes buts its really a piece of piss you'll pick it up in now time.

I think betfair levels the playing field to an extent, many prices are so much better than the highstreet prices so your getting something approaching the true odds. Laying wise that makes things difficult, far from impossible though.

Advise wise, paper trade for hundreds and hundreds of events if you have a margin based strategy, for occasional use if you really fancy something and betfair is best price there's no reason not to avail.

Don't lay for the sake of it, the bigger prices, commission and premium charge make random laying not an option.

Slattsy

I'd love to get into the business of being able to lay a few horses.

Obviously i'll be doing more win bets than laying, but certain races i can call when i dont fancy a fav, i want to be able to lay em.

Slattsy

Slattsy wrote: »

I'd love to get into the business of being able to lay a few horses.

Obviously i'll be doing more win bets than laying, but certain races i can call when i dont fancy a fav, i want to be able to lay em.

Yeah it's good for laying short price favs as you're not putting huge money at stake.

The automated 'cash out' option is absolutely awesome as well (whether you are backing or laying).

Stick it on your mobile and you'll never look back.

Slattsy

Can you give me an example of what 'cashing out' means?

Slattsy

Slattsy wrote: »

Can you give me an example of what 'cashing out' means?

I do most of my betting on phone now so not sure how it works online.

If you back a horse it stands to reason that at any time you can lay it to either take a loss or profit (depending on which way the price has moved).

On the app it will tell you how much profit you stand to make if the horse wins (next to the selection) and there's a button at the top telling you how much you can take right now by laying off.

So if you back something and it shortens in-running or ante-post you can take a risk free profit at the touch of a button without having to do all the maths and manually lay it.

Even better if you've backed and laid all sorts it gives you the net figures on the market and you can still cash out to maximise profit.

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

I do most of my betting on phone now so not sure how it works online.

If you back a horse it stands to reason that at any time you can lay it to either take a loss or profit (depending on which way the price has moved).

On the app it will tell you how much profit you stand to make if the horse wins (next to the selection) and there's a button at the top telling you how much you can take right now by laying off.

So if you back something and it shortens in-running or ante-post you can take a risk free profit at the touch of a button without having to do all the maths and manually lay it.

Even better if you've backed and laid all sorts it gives you the net figures on the market and you can still cash out to maximise profit.

Oh and of course you can cut your losses as well. Which I tend to do more often than taking an early profit.

Slattsy

I get you.

I want to get the hang of laying horses before Cheltenham.

There's nothing to get the hang of really
Find the race, find the yoke you fancy to lose, click lay and enter how much you want to take, liability is displayed, you confirm and it'll be matched hopefully

Some of the lay prices mightnt be to your liking though

Slattsy

Who sets the lay price ?

Slattsy

Slattsy wrote: »

Who sets the lay price ?

Nobody sets the price - it's a market.

Also another of the 'hidden' features of Betfair - if you want to lay something at 2/1 there's nothing stopping you asking for it. You might not get it, but if the horse touches 2/1 and there's enough demand you will.

Also for backing. Prices tend to fluctuate so if you're smart you can offer to back at 9/4 and if the price wavers around 2/1 and up and down a couple of points you'll get the best price you can. Of course if it shortens you'll get nothing.

Colonel Sanders

Slattsy wrote: »

Who sets the lay price ?

You do

However no guarantee someone will take it

eg I've often thought a horse around 5/4 might shorten & would be a lay at evs, say

I stick up a lay at evs (2.0). If the price shortens & someone is happy to back at 2.0 later in the day well & good if not my money is simply refunded

What's in the lay column is set by backers, whats in the back column is set by layers, the amounts available are displayed. You can set your own price and submit it and if the market moves sufficiently it'll be matched.

Slattsy

This is where i need to get my facts right, in what i can and cant do.


If I think a 6/4 shot is beatable, do i have the option to offer it at 7/4, 15/8, 2/1, 9/4 etc etc ?

Slattsy

I know Nulty linked me a thread on this, i just have not had a minute to read it in full.

Slattsy

Deleted User wrote: »

Nobody sets the price - it's a market.

Colonel Sanders wrote: »

You do

2 different answers here to my question :
"Who sets the price" ?

Slattsy

Slattsy wrote: »

This is where i need to get my facts right, in what i can and cant do.


If I think a 6/4 shot is beatable, do i have the option to offer it at 7/4, 15/8, 2/1, 9/4 etc etc ?

You can but why would you?

Graupel

Slattsy wrote: »

2 different answers here to my question :
"Who sets the price" ?

You set your price slattsy, If it isn't matched then your money is refunded.

Slattsy

Deleted User wrote: »

You can but why would you?

If PP price a horse up at 6/4 and i reckon it'll be beat.
So.... i offer €50 liability at 7/4 to entice someone to back it.

ft9

Best thing to do is join up have a look and do a few small lays to get the hang of it. It's really simple stuff, you could talk about it all day long.

youtube!

Deleted User wrote: »

I do most of my betting on phone now so not sure how it works online.

If you back a horse it stands to reason that at any time you can lay it to either take a loss or profit (depending on which way the price has moved).

On the app it will tell you how much profit you stand to make if the horse wins (next to the selection) and there's a button at the top telling you how much you can take right now by laying off.

So if you back something and it shortens in-running or ante-post you can take a risk free profit at the touch of a button without having to do all the maths and manually lay it.

Even better if you've backed and laid all sorts it gives you the net figures on the market and you can still cash out to maximise profit.

While the cashout option is handy you would be mad to use it on a regular basis, BF take a little bite out of your winnings every time,just cash out manually yourself,they get enough commission!

RoverJames

RoverJames wrote: »

What's in the lay column is set by backers, whats in the back column is set by layers, the amounts available are displayed. You can set your own price and submit it and if the market moves sufficiently it'll be matched.

Slattsy wrote: »

2 different answers here to my question :
"Who sets the price" ?

Slattsy

RoverJames wrote: »

You and your faces!

Colonel Sanders

You decide what price you want to back & lay at

The prices furthest the right of the blue side and furthest to the left of the pink side are the shortest prices currently on offer to back/lay

If you want a bigger price to back or you are only willing to lay at shorter you put up the price and stake you want. Of course there is no guarantee someone else will want to play at the odds you want to

You can cancel it at any time as long as it hasn't been matched.

Also remember if you lay at 2-1 you are actually laying at 2.11/1, you are risking 200 to win 100 if it loses but will then pay commission if up to 5% on your winnings. Starts at 5% and then decreases the more you turn over

You lay a horse at 2-1, risk 200 to win 100. You then pay 5% commission so in effect you are risking 200 to win 95 so actually laying at just under 2.11/1

cack_handed

Key question: you need to ask yourself why you want to lay horses. Is it because you believe you will be good at it and have an edge or you think it might be an easy route to consistent profit? If its the latter then I would advise caution, especially when it comes to Cheltenham.
Because its so much easier, in theory, to pick a loser than a winner, people assume that laying is the way to make big money. This is dangerous thinking in my experience, if you stick with only laying short priced horses and are disciplined, then no worries, but if you're laying longer priced ones, you need to keep a very healthy strike-rate to stay alive. Not good for blood pressure if you've laid a 10/1 shot for loads and it scoots 5 lengths clear coming into the straight!!

Anyway, it doesn't have to be that way, and not trying to put anyone off. Just it can be a dangerous game if you're not clear about what you are trying to do is all i'm saying

eddiezero

Cack handed is quite accurate in his assessment of laying.

Most layers on Betfair are skint, backers are the ones who are in clover.

cack_handed

i'd qualify that a small bit eddie by saying most successful layers on betfair are those that have a decent bit of stable information behind them, you can't but look at some of the conspicuous drifts on the markets - way out of synch with the on-course layers - and not conclude that certain well connected people aren't having it off big time. Particularly so on the rancid all weather stuff thats been dominating racing screens over the past few weeks

To be fair you can make decent returns from laying horses with zero stable info. You just need to have enough experience to spot enough underpriced horses, there are oodles of them running every week.

Most profitable betfair accounts are traders imo, not my cup of tea but each to their own.

Gautama

I intended to give my tuppence worth a while back, but got waylaid (no pun intended). This is my opinion of BetFair's horse racing market.

I do a bit of laying on BetFair, to varying degrees of success. It's handy to have the option of a lay rather than just a back. You've got numerous horses running in your favour rather than just one.

It adds "a little interest" when you're watching a race that you don't know much about, e.g. a maiden in Mallow. It's easier lay a favourite for a few quid rather than pick a winner.
Same goes for Cheltenham. Some people have punts on every race. Personally I'd be weak enough, knowledge wise, in the handicaps. I'd rather lay a horse towards the head of the market rather than try to pick a winner.
I'll put it another way, it's an easier "fun bet".
Granted, if it is for fun, you don't roar home.

I don't see any value in backing Simonsig or Hurricane Fly in Cheltenham. If I can't pick a winner in the next couple of weeks, I'll be laying these instead. Not, I might add, because they're short priced favourites. I don't think Simonsig has been tested over fences and when he's under pressure, as was the case when Fingal Bay beat him over hurdles, he is beatable.
As for the Fly, he's in no better a position right now than he was this time last year. And look how that panned out.

I've found BetFair disappointing for backing. I'd heard so much about how much better the prices are, but for the most part it's marginal at the head of the market. And then there is the commission, which must be factored in (or out!).
Some bookies guarantee the prices, so if your selection drifts, you get the bigger prices; also worth considering.
The place market is very poor; you're better off staying with the bookies.

However, if you're going for a longshot, you will get a better price.

I've done some backing today, eight horses. Only two of these on BetFair. No laying.

Gautama

Gautama wrote: »

........... but for the most part it's marginal at the head of the market. And then there is the commission, which must be factored in (or out!).................

Indeed, I backed 50 relative shorties for virtual money (€20 a selection) in a log some time back, (well I backed 58 but I wrote a speel after 50 )

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=79368996&postcount=92

Considering you get GP off the bookies you're probably better off with them, those figures are net of commission so indicative of reality

In fairness though it does show how you can have a chance laying on Betfair if you know you're beans (or lay a certain number of horses randomly every day :pac: ).

beya2009

Hey guys I read the sticky on betfair exchange by wb but that thread is closed. I want to find out more about the backing side on the exchange. I understand the lay side fine. I'm just a bit confused at how the backing side works in terms of what you can stake and all.

longshotvalue

beya2009 wrote: »

Hey guys I read the sticky on betfair exchange by wb but that thread is closed. I want to find out more about the backing side on the exchange. I understand the lay side fine. I'm just a bit confused at how the backing side works in terms of what you can stake and all.

If you a profitable punter you'll get as much as you like on (within Reason) on horse near the top of the market. (unlike bookies who will stop your account). Pricewise near the top of the market there isnt much difference in price between betfair and bookies , but longhots are a much better price..

Johnny_Fontane

bear in mind if you are successful, you could get completely nailed by betfairs premium charge.

I was involved with a company that developed an very intricate program to recognise prices. Had a full time staff of 6 people. We had to sell the whole thing as we were getting nailed with their betfair charge of 60% of the profits. Total joke, but did very well out of it whilst it lasted.

beya2009

Johnny_Fontane wrote: »

bear in mind if you are successful, you could get completely nailed by betfairs premium charge.

I was involved with a company that developed an very intricate program to recognise prices. Had a full time staff of 6 people. We had to sell the whole thing as we were getting nailed with their betfair charge of 60% of the profits. Total joke, but did very well out of it whilst it lasted.

Wow that's good going! You must have been making a killing. I don't think I will be having that problem on Betfair with their premium charges if this is what is required to be docked 60% lol


Higher rates of Premium Charge will apply to the very small number of customers (less than 0.1%) that satisfy the following conditions over the lifetime of their account:
Lifetime net profits*** exceed £250,000
Commission generated less than 40% of lifetime gross profits
Bet in more than 1,000 markets
The Premium Charge rate applied to each customer that satisfies these conditions is dependent on their lifetime commission generated to gross profits ratio. The exact rate will be determined by the following table:
Lifetime commission generated to gross profits ratio< 5%
Applicable Premium Charge Rate 60%
5% – 10%
Applicable Premium Charge Rate 50%
10%+
Applicable Premium Charge Rate 40%


I think for other profitable punters on betfair the premium charge is around 20% I heard. It appears betfair got very greedy lol



I have heard Smarkets only has 2% commissions and Betdaq has 3% commission so they must be great options too.