For People Who Want To Leave The Church

SebBerkovich

The Irish Times has this

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2013/0129/breaking36.html

From the very folk who helped people leave the church.. while it was aloud
It suggests getting your details from your parish.

endacl

Everybody telling the truth when census time comes around would be the way to go on this one I think. I don't really care if the church considers me in or out. I know I'm out. They're wrong. The fact that they're wrong on so many big things really dwarfs the fact that they're wrong on lil' ol' me's membership.

yeppydeppy

I got this from them after they brought in their ridiculous canon law:


Cloyne Diocesan Office <info@cloynediocese.ie>

23/12/2011

to me

Yeppydeppy,

I can now confirm that a note has been made in the baptism register stating that you no longer wish to be considered a member of the Catholic church.

Yours sincerely,

Fr Jim Killeen

SebBerkovich

I got in there before they stopped all that "leaving the church business"

Have the defection letter from the bishop at home somewhere.
Made me feel like i had just cancelled my membership to a Gym i never went to.

robindch

yeppydeppy wrote: »

I can now confirm that a note has been made in the baptism register stating that you no longer wish to be considered a member of the Catholic church.

I just love the language here. Translated from Vatican diplo-speak, it reads "We accept that you don't want to be a member of our organization, but we're not going to let you become a non-member".

Splendidly Orwellian.

magicbastarder

'we have made a note in our records that you no longer wish to be incarcerated for the crime of murder, for which you were found guilty'.

Geomy

What's the problem,its only print on paper...
It's easy to make a mature decision and walk away from the church,I did...

Worried about some print on a piece of paper in some dusty filing cabinet in the Vatican.

Kiwi in IE

So the RCC won't 'let' people 'leave' once baptised? Why do you care? I can understand that it is annoying a patronising that they refuse to acknowledge that you want nothing to do with their fairytales and rituals. However it is you that has the power, not them. If you do not want to be a Catholic, then you are not one! The fact they keep your name on some baptismal record and count you among their numbers is their delusion. And let's be honest here delusions are surely not something new from them!

Red Pepper

I did not realise they changed "canon" law so that you couldn't leave the Roman CC. What a crowd of crazies they are in the Vatican.

I think that most people are still baptising their kids but I have noticed more and more parents refusing to indulge in communion/confession and confirmation which can only be a good thing. The trend is postive but the Roman CC still have a stranglehold on Irish people's minds. Many pass it off as "cultural" but I see it as plain brain-washing.

Obliq

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

The fact they keep your name on some baptismal record and count you among their numbers is their delusion. And let's be honest here delusions are surely not something new from them!

Well it's not quite the same thing as the Leinster orienteering champions keeping me on for nearly 25 years in spite of me not running a mile for them since then, is it? This is more a measure of you as a PERSON than your personal fitness catagory.

We are all catagorised. By the state, by each other, by whatever measure we choose to subscribe to.......oh wait, I said CHOOSE and SUBSCRIBE! And that's where it gets downright outrageous - that Catholic people had no choice but be subscribed to this from an early age, and therefore continued to be counted as Catholic.

I don't mind still being counted as fit! (Ha!)

magicbastarder

Red Pepper wrote: »

I did not realise they changed "canon" law so that you couldn't leave the Roman CC.

why is a camera company allowed decide these things anyway?

Kiwi in IE

Obliq wrote: »

Well it's not quite the same thing as the Leinster orienteering champions keeping me on for nearly 25 years in spite of me not running a mile for them since then, is it? This is more a measure of you as a PERSON than your personal fitness catagory.

We are all catagorised. By the state, by each other, by whatever measure we choose to subscribe to.......oh wait, I said CHOOSE and SUBSCRIBE! And that's where it gets downright outrageous - that Catholic people had no choice but be subscribed to this from an early age, and therefore continued to be counted as Catholic.

I don't mind still being counted as fit! (Ha!)

I get this Obliq, you had no choice in whether you were baptised, did communion etc. But you have a choice now, and if you choose not to be a Catholic then you are not. End of story! So the RCC say that you are! They also say that Virgins have babies, the creation story is reality, it is a 'sin' to use contraception, water can be turned to wine, wafers turn to flesh after being 'blessed'. Because they say it does not make it so!

endacl

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

They also say that Virgins have babies, the creation story is reality, it is a 'sin' to use contraception, water can be turned to wine, wafers turn to flesh after being 'blessed'.

Some of those aren't even true!!

Obliq

Ha, what....you mean they made stuff up?! Yeah Kiwi, I knew you knew that - just that I can feel for people who are really angry about it, even though they probably rationalise the RCC's response in the same way as you have said. I wasn't baptised at all, so I'm only guessing about the anger....I just know I'd have a hard time with it and might feel like throttling the person who'd send me a letter like that.

Geomy

There are ways of dealing with the anger.
That anger means the church still has power over the people.

I for one will not let some print on some dusty piece of paper inside a cabinet in Rome worry me.

eviltwin

I felt the same way for a long time as some of the posters here. I got into Count me Out just in time but my reasons for wanting to leave where not considered good enough so my request was denied!! I asked for the original copies of my records from my childhood church and was refused.

I stewed over it for ages but now I don't care, as Kiwi says we have choice and that gives us power. For me the simple act of putting myself down as atheist on my census form was enough. The Church can consider me a member all they want, the fact is I don't contribute or participate in anything to do with the RCC and never will, the State knows my status now and for me that is all that matters.

Kiwi in IE

Obliq wrote: »

Ha, what....you mean they made stuff up?! Yeah Kiwi, I knew you knew that - just that I can feel for people who are really angry about it, even though they probably rationalise the RCC's response in the same way as you have said. I wasn't baptised at all, so I'm only guessing about the anger....I just know I'd have a hard time with it and might feel like throttling the person who'd send me a letter like that.

Haha Obliq, I understand exactly how those people feel. I have to rationalise it, because I am furious with myself for going along with having my son baptised because it was important to my partners family! I was pretty naive about Catholicism at the time and thought it was more respectful to my in laws to go along with it rather than refuse. I have regretted it ever since. He is NOT Catholic!

krudler

It annoys me when people go "oh its just your name someplace it doesn't matter" if it was just my name someplace the church wouldnt have a problem taking it off, the fact they won't means it DOES matter.

Geomy

To some it matters to more its just ink on paper.

swampgas

Geomy wrote: »

To some it matters to more its just ink on paper.

Your passport and driving license are just ink on paper. That doesn't mean they don't have significance.

TwoShedsJackson

Geomy wrote: »

To some it matters to more its just ink on paper.

Baptismal records are used by the Church to show how many members they have, and thus gain influence in society and politics. They should have neither, and as stated above, if it's just ink on paper why do the Church refuse to let people have their names removed?

Geomy

TwoShedsJackson wrote: »

Baptismal records are used by the Church to show how many members they have, and thus gain influence in society and politics. They should have neither, and as stated above, if it's just ink on paper why do the Church refuse to let people have their names removed?

I see your point.

Ok I'm different,I don't really give a toss about church records.

From reading some posts I can see some of us think about this more than others.

I now understand why it upsets some people and others have a who gives a s&!t
attitude.

I hope it gets sorted for those who want to get out of the records etc

Wishing ye luck

Bannasidhe

eviltwin wrote: »

I felt the same way for a long time as some of the posters here. I got into Count me Out just in time but my reasons for wanting to leave where not considered good enough so my request was denied!! I asked for the original copies of my records from my childhood church and was refused.

I got out too. But they made no effort to have me stay...they just waved me goodbye with an air of don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out.

I feel so unloved - and proud. All at the same time.

Cool Mo D

TwoShedsJackson wrote: »

Baptismal records are used by the Church to show how many members they have, and thus gain influence in society and politics...

Do they though? When have they actually done this?

TwoShedsJackson

Cool Mo D wrote: »

Do they though? When have they actually done this?

Throughout recorded history.

Why would politicians etc. pay any attention to them unless they thought that the Church represented a section of society of sufficent numbers to be worth paying attention to?

As their influence declines in society today, so the power of the Church hierarchy becomes less and less, and they are now clinging desperately to baptismal records in an attempt to justify some scrap of relevance.

Wibbly Wobbly Wonder

Why does no one take a legal challenge, and what is Athiest.ie doing about this situation ?

Peregrinus

Wibbly Wobbly Wonder wrote: »

Why does no one take a legal challenge, and what is Athiest.ie doing about this situation ?

Lack of standing. To mount a legal claim, somebody has got to show that they are being treated as a member by the Catholic church when they are not, in fact, a member or don't want to be.

It's an article of faith on this board that the Catholic church does this, but if concrete examples of the church doing this are ever called for, all that is offered is flannelly answers like Twoshed Jackson's above. That's plainly not going to get you very far in the High Court.

The actual fact is that, from the Catholic point of view, it is extremely easy to leave the Catholic church. You can do it unilaterally; there is no form you have to complete or notice you have to give; you don't need anyone's permission, agreement or acknowledgement. There are no barriers at all to leaving. (For a time, there was a formal procedure you had to go through if, for the purposes of certain provisions of canon law regarding marriage, you wanted the church to regard you as having left. But that procedure was dismantled a few years ago.)

Dades

Wibbly Wobbly Wonder wrote: »

Why does no one take a legal challenge, and what is Athiest.ie doing about this situation ?

The church effectively claim something supernatural happened at baptism that can't be undone.

Taking to the courts with this nonsense cropping up as a defense would be an exercise in futility for everyone.

Wibbly Wobbly Wonder

Dades wrote: »

The church effectively claim something supernatural happened at baptism that can't be undone.

Taking to the courts with this nonsense cropping up as a defense would be an exercise in futility for everyone.

I think you're getting mixed up here, we're not dealing with the validity of any supernatural claims. That's a separate issue.

We're dealing with written records that claim that we are permanently recorded on publicly accessible records, for all future generations to see, that we have gone though the Church initiation process. (albeit against our wills). Unamended, these records may be taken as read, that we remained as voluntary members of the Catholic Church after having undergone their initiation process, and not objected to same, and no publically accessible record is kept of our objection. So at the very least these publicly accessible historical records should be amended to set the record straight, for future generations and the records of History where a person requests them to be so.

Would you want it on publically acessable record for all time that you had gone though the initiation ceremony for he Nazi party in Nazi Germany, and then after the war, this publically acessable record remained unamended that you had totally objected to that ?

At the very least Atheist.ie should be seeking legal advice on the matter on behalf of Atheists

TPD

What do you need to do to be excommunicated these days?

kylith

TPD wrote: »

What do you need to do to be excommunicated these days?

You could try kicking Bishop Brennan up the arse...

It wouldn't make any difference anyway, you'd still be counted as Catholic, just an excommunicated one.