[Event] Valentia Island Tri 2013 Saturday 11th May

Kurt Godel

Reminder to set your alarm clocks for 8am this Sunday, entries open...

The date for Valentia Island Triathlon 2013 has now been set for Saturday 11th May, 12 noon start time. This race will form part of the Triathlon Ireland ‘National Series’.

Online entry will open from 08:00 Sunday 27th January 2013, and places will be released in three tranches, including on 08:00 Sunday 24th February and 08:00 31st March.

griffin100

I'd start checking the website before 8am. IIRC the year I did it the entry opened before the stated time.

Kurt Godel

The first lot of entries sold out on the day; the second lot will be available tomorrow morning from 8am for anyone who missed out.

bazzer86

I have a spare entry due to entry if anyone wants to take it off me?

PWEI

Swim cancelled in Valentia this morning.

griffin100

PWEI wrote: »

Swim cancelled in Valentia this morning.

If that's true I think Kurt may actually explode.

PWEI

griffin100 wrote: »

If that's true I think Kurt may actually explode.

Yep, posted on FB by a guy in my club who's doing it. The official reason is because of wind speed.

BTH

Don't know about Kurt, but Interested was going for a swim after the duathlon. Probably sans wetsuit too!!

sconhome

PWEI wrote: »

Yep, posted on FB by a guy in my club who's doing it. The official reason is because of wind speed.

Wind speed probably leading to wind chill being a factor in cancelling the swim.

littlemsfickle

So what was the alternative format? 5km run 20km bike 5km run?

Kurt Godel

griffin100 wrote: »

If that's true I think Kurt may actually explode.

Swim cancelled, what a bloody joke. I'll take some pics of the sea, which I'm going into for a swim after some soup. What's the point of sprint tris in Ireland, why bother training for the swum at all? Sorry for the negative attitude but Im fairly annoyed eight now.

Kurt Godel

littlemsfickle wrote: »

So what was the alternative format? 5km run 20km bike 5km run?

3k 20k 5k

Crazy call about the swim, but otherwise very well organised, great Marshall and helpers, well done valentia tri club.

griffin100

Kurt Godel wrote: »

3k 20k 5k

Crazy call about the swim, but otherwise very well organised, great Marshall and helpers, well done valentia tri club.

Have you ever managed to do an ow tri where the swim wasnt cancelled?

Kurt Godel

griffin100 wrote: »

Have you ever managed to do an ow tri where the swim wasnt cancelled?

Ha, not yet! Same TI official, I need to check his schedule and avoid him;)

Just back in from a 30 minute swim, where I vented some frustration, so feel a bit calmer now. The water felt great, very nice temperature, my trisuit felt cold as i exited, there's a cold stiff wind all right. I wouldn't fancy biking the island in a wet trisuit just now... But why cancel the swum on that ground? Why not cancel the bike? Anyways, what's done is done, onwards and upwards. The race started in five waves if 100 each, a minute apart, so it will be a close call between me and interested in the results... Wouldn't have got near him had the swim gone ahead!

RacoonQueen

Can you imagine the commotion if the bike was cancelled!

littlemsfickle

RacoonQueen wrote: »

Can you imagine the commotion if the bike was cancelled!

Happened at Brian Boru last year....well for half the field anyway.

sconhome

RacoonQueen wrote: »

Can you imagine the commotion if the bike was cancelled!

Why not just cancel the swim and bike and have a run off :rolleyes:

RacoonQueen

amphkingwest wrote: »

Why not just cancel the swim and bike and have a run off :rolleyes:

That would be AWESOME, do you think they might do that next week?

Fazz

Results seem to be online - but suggest a completely different race format?

http://www.racetecresults.com/results.aspx?CId=74&RId=10150

Changed to a sprint duathlon by the looks of it??
Distances must be what? - 3k - 15k - 2.25k?

Joe Smullen's run looks a tad out but others seem fine.

Thank god I didn't head down to this race for 40 mins of run bike! :eek:


If the swim didn't go ahead in Valentia, what hope has any race for the next few weeks???

On the plus side, if the above post was correct about ambient air temperature being the reason combined with water temp - weather forecast looks like a decent temperature increase for Tri an Mhi next Sat so air temp should hopefully see the swim have a better chance!

RacoonQueen

Just saw the results on the website we daren't mention and thought they were wrong but doesn't look like it then.

Why change the distance of the second run? I though the point of replacing swim with a run was that the run distance there would take a similar amount of time to a swim? so 3k - 20k - 5k would have seemed right?

Fazz

RacoonQueen wrote: »

Just saw the results on the website we daren't mention and thought they were wrong but doesn't look like it then.

Why change the distance of the second run? I though the point of replacing swim with a run was that the run distance there would take a similar amount of time to a swim? so 3k - 20k - 5k would have seemed right?

Not to mention the bike being shortened for no reason?
Or else organisers completely changed the bike course to make an already short bike even shorter for this year?
really don't understand this one.

Kurt Godel

Those times are only for partial. They don't include the bike and run climb to the top of the hill. Format was 3k run (five waves a minute apart), and the 20k bike and 5k run as you were.

Fazz

Kurt Godel wrote: »

Those times are only for partial. They don't include the bike and run climb to the top of the hill. Format was 3k run (five waves a minute apart), and the 20k bike and 5k run as you were.

Thanks for that! Sure looked strange alright so just a timing issue in initial results then.

Glad to hear the second and third legs weren't changed for you at least!

catweazle

A nice 2 second win for Kurt over his coach - next time coach is giving you a hard time, give him a curl lipped sneer and whisper to yourself smugly who are you to give me advice :cool:

Kurt Godel

Here's a few photos for anyone interested... taken about 30 mins after the event, about 1.5k along the shore road. Conditions were pretty much identical to when the race was on, and I swam for over 30 minutes here. Just posting them in case anyone is under the impression there was gale force winds and huge waves... This is what TI consider cancelable conditions, they might help people decide if they will risk signing up for an event or not... click images for larger pics.

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[IMG][/img][/QUOTE]

sconhome

I thought the reasons for cancellations were a combination of water temperatures and the ambient air temperatures, not the actual water conditions ( flat, choppy etc.)

Any information on the temps? That's more the reason for cancellation I would expect.

Kurt Godel

amphkingwest wrote: »

I thought the reasons for cancellations were a combination of water temperatures and the ambient air temperatures, not the actual water conditions ( flat, choppy etc.)

Any information on the temps? That's more the reason for cancellation I would expect.

Hearsay, but I heard the water temps were 13 degrees, but that the wind-chill on the poor bikers was wot won it. It wasn't cold in any way on the bike (dry) today, but it was windy. A wet trisuit on the bike wouldn't have been tickety-boo, but thats what layers are for (or god forbid going fast to warm yourself up). I had a shower at a cold tap after my swim, stood outside naked to dry for a few minutes. We're not talking winter conditions, far from it.

Anyone else down there have an opinion?

RacoonQueen

Dear God

Now have an image of a naked Paul in my head.

Will have nightmares tonight

hf4z6sqo7vjngi

Problem is Paul those are the current rules set out. As AKW mentioned its water temp/air temp which is considered and not only how choppy the water is. Just as a side note the sea water temp on the North East was measured at 8.5 last week.
Perhaps the rules need to be looked at because its going to put a lot of people off signing up for early season races. Totally understand your frustration.

Kurt Godel

Annabelle Fresh Nutshell wrote: »

Problem is Paul those are the current rules set out. As AKW mentioned its water temp/air temp which is considered and not only how choppy the water is. Just as a side note the sea water temp on the North East was measured at 8.5 last week.
Perhaps the rules need to be looked at because its going to put a lot of people off signing up for early season races. Totally understand your frustration.

I'm aware of the TI water temperature guidelines for specific distances Fran- I went looking for them last week, because I didn't want to travel all the way the Valentia to face no swim. I'm willing to bet anything the sea temperature today (as I anecdotaly heard) were in excess of the minimum for a 650m swim. Certainly I couldn't believe how warm it was last night at 10pm, compared with swimming in Wicklow Harbour a week ago, and indeed how warm it was as I swam it straight after the race. Rules are rules, I accept they are there to ensure safety, but (again anecdotaly) this perfectly swimmable swim seems to have cancelled because bikers would be cold in wet gear. That's a TI safety call that doesn't appear in the rulebook (as far as I know).

Bottom line is I'm tired of the swim leg being cancelled for perceived risk reasons. The bike leg entails far more risk (and certainly did today, very little control when the wind has more power over the bike than you do). I've yet to hear of an Irish triathlete dying during swim training or racing. Unfortunately its all too common in the bike section.

hf4z6sqo7vjngi

BTW i am in agreement with you in case that does not come across in my post. I am a sh1t swimmer but when you sign up to do a tri you expect to get a little bit wet before you get on the bike!!

Kurt Godel

Annabelle Fresh Nutshell wrote: »

BTW i am in agreement with you in case that does not come across in my post. I am a sh1t swimmer but when you sign up to do a tri you expect to get a little bit wet before you get on the bike!!

Nah it comes across alright as is Fran. You're just looking for reasons or explanations, to something that otherwise makes no sense to those who weren't there.

As far as I can see it, we're in a sport (triathlon) that utilizes what we got in Ireland. Thats an abundance of water, that while not hot, is never too cold, and never full of predators, and is usually not too rough. We have roads, which include severe bends, offset cambre, bad surfaces, frequent potholes, agressive motorists. Constantly saying "Safety is our No. 1 priority" isn't good enough. Managing the inherent risks involved in the sport is more important. Its a better thing that a triathlon goes ahead with 10 willing competitors, than that Tri becomes a duathlon to accommodate the 300 who would prefer not to swim. When risk is being decided between disciplines by TI (or their insurers), its considered that you should wrap the swimmers in (eternally dry) cotton wool. The knock on effect is- why bother training for the swim part?

I'm getting very repetitive now, so I guess I'll bow out of making the same arguments. Just pissed off that a swim in decent conditions in a great part of the world got cancelled.

bombidal

Attached is the reason I though the swim was cancelled. Taken about 4pm. This was the 3rd swim out of my last 6 tri's that has been shortened or cut. Kilkenny last year still takes the biscuit. Very frustrating.

griffin100

There's something wrong when a swim cancellation or shortening results in a happier field. I've only ever had one tri swim cancelled (for water quality issues) but I've done two where the swims were shortened and in both cases there was huge relief in the field - seriously, if you can't swim 750m go and do Gaelforce or some other messing.

RacoonQueen

Kurt Godel wrote: »

Bottom line is I'm tired of the swim leg being cancelled for perceived risk reasons. The bike leg entails far more risk (and certainly did today, very little control when the wind has more power over the bike than you do). I've yet to hear of an Irish triathlete dying during swim training or racing. Unfortunately its all too common in the bike section.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/swimmer-dies-after-being-rescued-from-dublin-bay-1.1351766

Not that I disagree with your point, but this was a triathlete who got in for a swim after his run and died from hypothermia I believe.

Like Fran, I'm a sh*t swimmer (particularly in OW ) but I don't see the point in doing a tri without a swim and short swims are annoying. I was gutted in Athlone last year when the swim was shortened and despite struggling during the shortened swim I was still disappointed afterwards. Everyone else nearly threw a party when they found out it was shortened.

sibeen99

I headed to Valentia in the hopes of becoming a triathlete yesterday and was absolutely gutted that the swim was cancelled! I really think if there is any chance of swim not going ahead entrants should be advised and given an option to defer or be refunded. Or let the competitors decide if they want to risk the swim. Im sure everyone, like myself, has been training for the event and it is totally disheartening for it not to proceed as planned. Im not a great swimmer but was so so disappointed that I didn't even have a chance to find out how good or bad I could be in race conditions Oh well, thats my rant but I'm cettainly not happy going home today as a duathlete!
Well done to all that participated anyway!

Ceepo

I'm sure it was a pain in the butt to drive down there to find out the swim was cancelled, and I see a lot on hear giving out about it.

My understanding is that it was cancelled on the grounds of.

Water temp of less than 12c, when the air temp was only about 8c.

Like it or not under ITU rules with the swim should be cancelled.
13c is the mimium water temp for a Triathlon to go ahead, and this is subject to air temp as well.

Its all very fine for someone one hear to say "I taught the water was fine"
But if something was to happen anyone out there or any other race
Who do you think would be held responsible?

Race director, Club, Technical Officer, Athlete ????

All maybe, but it wouldn't be anyone on hear !!!

tunney

Annabelle Fresh Nutshell wrote: »

Problem is Paul those are the current rules set out. As AKW mentioned its water temp/air temp which is considered and not only how choppy the water is. Just as a side note the sea water temp on the North East was measured at 8.5 last week.
Perhaps the rules need to be looked at because its going to put a lot of people off signing up for early season races. Totally understand your frustration.

Changing the rules will not make anything safer. The water temperature rules are *NOT* TIs. They are ITU, and indeed WTC.

While its disappointing for all involved, really its a risk that you run. Like IM Frankfurt has a 50/50 chance of being a non wetsuit swim, early season races in Ireland run a risk of having cancelled swims.

I personally always thought that races should look more to September than May for slots.

Kurt Godel

Ceepo wrote: »

I'm sure it was a pain in the butt to drive down there to find out the swim was cancelled, and I see a lot on hear giving out about it.

My understanding is that it was cancelled on the grounds of.

Water temp of less than 12c, when the air temp was only about 8c.

Like it or not under ITU rules with the swim should be cancelled.
13c is the mimium water temp for a Triathlon to go ahead, and this is subject to air temp as well.

Its all very fine for someone one hear to say "I taught the water was fine"
But if something was to happen anyone out there or any other race
Who do you think would be held responsible?

Race director, Club, Technical Officer, Athlete ????

All maybe, but it wouldn't be anyone on hear !!!

If you're going to throw the rulebook at me then the bike should have been cancelled due to dangerous crosswinds on the back part of the island. Deep rims were urged to exercise caution at the briefing, but weren't prohibited (discs were).
It may come across to you as "giving out", but I'm honestly trying to comprehend why the swim was cancelled. If its because of the ITU water temperature rules, then TI should adapt British Tri Fed rules on water temperature, and recognise that we're not living in a Continental climate. Otherwise the majority of Tri swims in Ireland are going to operate under threat of cancellation.

BTU Rules:
13deg 2,000m max
12deg 1,000m max
11deg 500m max

They are less restrictive than ITU rules, and I daresay more applicable to our climate. I'll be writing to TI asking if they have considered these BTU guidelines.

tunney

Your honour there were alot of people whinging on the internet. Thats why we went against internationally accepted best standards and let people in the water. We're very sorry those kids don't have their Daddy anymore but we didn't want people to get cranky.

Kurt Godel

tunney wrote: »

Your honour there were alot of people whinging on the internet. Thats why we went against internationally accepted best standards and let people in the water. We're very sorry those kids don't have their Daddy anymore but we didn't want people to get cranky.

Don't be a clown tunney, thats not what I'm saying. If the rules are so restrictive as to make swims very likely to be cancelled, I'll just move to OW swimming events (no loss to triathlon, I'm just a hobbyist). Adopting BTU rules seems a more practical solution than moving all tris to September.

tunney

Kurt Godel wrote: »

If you're going to throw the rulebook at me then the bike should have been cancelled due to dangerous crosswinds on the back part of the island. Deep rims were urged to exercise caution at the briefing, but weren't prohibited (discs were).
It may come across to you as "giving out", but I'm honestly trying to comprehend why the swim was cancelled. If its because of the ITU water temperature rules, then TI should adapt British Tri Fed rules on water temperature, and recognise that we're not living in a Continental climate. Otherwise the majority of Tri swims in Ireland are going to operate under threat of cancellation.

BTU Rules:
13deg 2,000m max
12deg 1,000m max
11deg 500m max

They are less restrictive than ITU rules, and I daresay more applicable to our climate. I'll be writing to TI asking if they have considered these BTU guidelines.

If you are going to throw the BTF rule book at this, I might as well include the bit that doesn't suit your argument

At temperatures below 11c, it is recommended that open water swimming does not take place. The above temperatures are base on water temperature alone and assume that the wind chill is negligible. If wind chill is significant, swim distances may be reduced at higher temperatures.

Under BTF rules then too yesterday would have been affected/cancelled too.

mossym

tunney wrote: »

I personally always thought that races should look more to September than May for slots.

agree with this. probably deserves a separate thread rather than derailing this one, but for someone trying to fill out their first year's racing in tri, there seems to be a real lack of events in sept, which is surprising. surely given the water temps, and the lack of a real drop in air temp, it's probably one of the best months for tris?

tunney

In ten years doing triathlon I have never entered a race with an OW swim that was on before June. Just seemed like a bl00dy stupid idea.

Never wear shorts on the bike before Easter.
Never race OW before the June back holiday.

Kurt Godel

tunney wrote: »

Under BTF rules then too yesterday would have been affected/cancelled too.

There was a strong wind yesterday, and no doubt wind chill was a factor, it may well have still been cancelled under BTF rules. If I'm coming across as just whinging, then I apologize. People with a wetsuit, a signed swim competency cert, and proper gear to stay warm on the bike, would have been well able to swim yesterday. I fully accept TI officials have to make their call based on rules (and its a thankless job), but IMO those temperature rules will continue to adversely restrict Tri's in Ireland.

No point in flogging a dead horse, so I'll leave it at that. The bike and run sections were very well marshalled, the set-up down in Valentia is great, the whole community were behind the event and out supporting, I'll be back again next year.

Ceepo

Meandered your letterrt Godel;84572082]If you're going to throw the rulebook at me then the bike should have been cancelled due to dangerous crosswinds on the back part of the island. Deep rims were urged to exercise caution at the briefing, but weren't prohibited (discs were).
It may come across to you as "giving out", but I'm honestly trying to comprehend why the swim was cancelled. If its because of the ITU water temperature rules, then TI should adapt British Tri Fed rules on water temperature, and recognise that we're not living in a Continental climate. Otherwise the majority of Tri swims in Ireland are going to operate under threat of cancellation.

BTU Rules:
13deg 2,000m max
12deg 1,000m max
11deg 500m max

They are less restrictive than ITU rules, and I daresay more applicable to our climate. I'll be writing to TI asking if they have considered these BTU guidelines.[/QUOTE]

HI Gurt

Please don't think I was thrown the rule book at you.
As I didn't quote you or anyone else for that matter.

I simply pointed out the rules as they stand at present. If BTU
Have different guide lines so be it.

By all means send a letter it TI or better still get your club to bring a Motion to the next AGM.
Where I am sure it will be debated, then passed or not what ever the case.
That way then Clubs, Race directors, Technical Officer can follow any amended rule change.

I agree with you regarding managing the risks on roads, bikes etc

But there is a difference in risk management. And not implenting the Rules.

If an accident happens, one of the 1st questions asked is about risk assessment/management. There is only so much that you can do to prevent an accident.
But if that accident happened because the race went ahead outside of NGB rules
That's a totally different matter

MrCreosote

The Malin head average sea temps are interesting for just how warm September is compared to May. The pattern would be vaild for the western seaboard.


Valentia in Early May? The only surprise is that the swim hasn't been cancelled more often in pevious years. It sucks having a race changed or cancelled, but in fairness it's hardly a shock.

longshank

I was there yesterday and to be honest if I was the one responsible for making the call I would have cancelled the swim too.
I personally would have had no problem doing the swim but it is the weaker swimmers that have to be considered, cold water combined with a choppy seas followed by strong winds on the bike is an unreasonable risk for beginners and weak swimmers.
I'm sure the person ultimately responsible has to consider the weakest and worst case scenario NOT the 99.8% who would have no issues.
People need to see beyond their own issues and see it from the point of view of the person who is responsible for the safety of everyone.

bazzer86

Kurt Godel wrote: »

Hearsay, but I heard the water temps were 13 degrees, but that the wind-chill on the poor bikers was wot won it. It wasn't cold in any way on the bike (dry) today, but it was windy. A wet trisuit on the bike wouldn't have been tickety-boo, but thats what layers are for (or god forbid going fast to warm yourself up). I had a shower at a cold tap after my swim, stood outside naked to dry for a few minutes. We're not talking winter conditions, far from it.

Anyone else down there have an opinion?

Was just looking at the pictures of the shore road, and I don't think you are comparing like with like as the shore road is a lot more sheltered than the harbour by the marina. Perhaps they should have moved it there but that may not have worked logistically... I'm sure they looked at all options before cancelling it. It was a pity but sure....

Kurt Godel

bazzer86 wrote: »

Was just looking at the pictures of the shore road, and I don't think you are comparing like with like as the shore road is a lot more sheltered than the harbour by the marina. Perhaps they should have moved it there but that may not have worked logistically... I'm sure they looked at all options before cancelling it. It was a pity but sure....

You're right, it was more sheltered where I was just up from the Revenue houses, but got choppier as I swam out. Granted it was more choppy still mid-Renard. And I'm sure they looked at all options, and are hampered by the TI rules. Longshank put it well above, most would have been able to swim on the day, but the veil of 100% safety errs on the side of caution. Not something I personally agree with, but there you go. I'll write or motion to TI that Ireland needs less stringent rules regarding water temperature than worldwide rules (specifically, British rules would enable more tri swims to go ahead, and go ahead safely).

splurge

Why do you think the rules should be different here ?
Can we cope better with lower temperatures than other europeans ?
Are we all better natural swimmers ?
Does hypothermia take longer to affect us thsn anyone else ?

The rules are the rules - the biggest problem is the mentality of some people - ah sure we'll be grand !

Water temperatures are a critical factor in safe swimming and clear information from the race organisers should be provided in advance I.e I believe tri an mhi should report today on the current water temps and the likelihood of a swim proceeding - this wpuld avoid rash decisions taken on race morning in view of 300 adrenalin fuelled triathletes.