Real-World IDE for Web Dev?

Trojan

Sparks wrote: »

<hits ban key repeatedly>

http://www.passmark.com/products/apptimer.htm

C:\Program Files\Notepad2\Notepad2.exe - 20 executions
0.0349
0.0468
0.0487
0.0508
0.0518
0.0496
0.0518
0.0499
0.0498
0.0478
0.0468
0.0480
0.0488
0.0518
0.0508
0.0488
0.0489
0.0488
0.0518
0.0508

Tell me, how long does your editor take to load?

Sparks

Trojan wrote: »

Tell me, how long does your editor take to load?

0.87 seconds real elapsed time to start up and shut back down, on a crappy old netbook that's also running several browser windows and vlc playing a movie.

On a reasonably fast desktop machine (well, reasonably fast five years ago)? 0.006 to 0.019 seconds.

Gotta love vim

DonkeyStyle \o/

~0.1 seconds for Notepad++
It's crippling my productivity.

Aswerty

KonFusion wrote: »

On a side note, Sublime Test 3 Beta was announced today

http://www.sublimetext.com/blog/articles/sublime-text-3-beta

And talking about load times Sublime Text 3 loads almost instantaneously on windows which is a big improvement.

I use Visual Studio for C# development, I keep pretty much everything other than the text editor hidden and use the VsVim plugin which does a very good implementation of Vim emulation. I use Sublime Text (just upgraded to 3) for most everything else and I use Vim for on the fly editing on Linux and any large scale data manipulation on windows.

Just to note for anyone who doesn't know, Sublime Text comes with a basic vi mode out of the box which is something I didn't realise for ages.

I'm still a bit of a Vim noob but I'm well over the initial learning curve and like Sparks my vim muscle memory is spilling over to other editors which is quite annoying!

Ludo

I must be the only one who just doesn't like Sublime. Tried it many times but the look of it just annoys me for some reason. Always end up going back to NotePad++ straight away.
Also find it much slower than NotePad++ for opening large files.

ChRoMe

Ludo wrote: »

I must be the only one who just doesn't like Sublime. Tried it many times but the look of it just annoys me for some reason. Always end up going back to NotePad++ straight away.
Also find it much slower than NotePad++ for opening large files.

Absolutely, Notepad++ blows it away when dealing with large files. I havnt come across anything that beats it (on windows anyway).

moycullen14

I've been doing this a long time so my opinions are worth a bit more than you newbies :-):D:D:D

For choice, I'd use a Mac for development given a beefy enough machine.

Next would be linux (CentOS is my current OS of coice but any would do).

linux/mac because you can replicate a full web-service stack on a laptop.

Finally and only when I have to will I use Windows. The only tools that are windows based that I would be bothered about that are not available on mac/linux would be tortoisesvn & toad. Have been forced down the Windows route for Blackberry development by, thankfully, that's nearly dead.

For an IDE, a combination of Eclipse & vi. A combination of shell scripts & vi is great for 'batch' updating and complex text matching.

Everything on a mac works very well together and I love the 'feel' of it but the cost/performance ratio is poor.

ChRoMe

moycullen14 wrote: »

linux/mac because you can replicate a full web-service stack on a laptop.

Eh... and you can't do that in windows?

moycullen14

ChRoMe wrote: »

Eh... and you can't do that in windows?

You can implement it on windows but you can't replicate it. Our production servers are large, virtual servers running the same linux OS and software stack that I can run on my €400 laptop.

Really, this isn't a windows v linux thing, it's just that I find myself typically in environments where the production system is linux based so it helps to have the same environment - as much a possible - on my desk.

ChRoMe

moycullen14 wrote: »

You can implement it on windows but you can't replicate it. Our production servers are large, virtual servers running the same linux OS and software stack that I can run on my €400 laptop.

Really, this isn't a windows v linux thing, it's just that I find myself typically in environments where the production system is linux based so it helps to have the same environment - as much a possible - on my desk.

What language/stack are you using that necessitates that?

Fluffy88

This is probably one of the most touchy topics for programmers.
It started 20 years ago (or there abouts) with emacs and vim and continues today.

I think what that proves is, there is many ways to skin a cat and you should do it the way your most comfortable or fastest.

Personally I use Eclipse for large Java projects, Notepad++ for web and smaller projects, vim for script writing and file editing on Linux.
They all have pros and cons but it's what I'm used to

Oh and Notepad++ is the best
Just like Windows beats Mac :P

ChRoMe

Fluffy88 wrote: »

This is probably one of the most touchy topics for programmers.
It started 20 years ago (or there abouts) with emacs and vim and continues today.

I think what that proves is, there is many ways to skin a cat and you should do it the way your most comfortable or fastest.

Personally I use Eclipse for large Java projects, Notepad++ for web and smaller projects, vim for script writing and file editing on Linux.
They all have pros and cons but it's what I'm used to

Oh and Notepad++ is the best
Just like Windows beats Mac :P

Thats pretty much exactly my setup, however there are some instances where I like to use Netbeans, generally for writing web service stuff as the plugins are just so nice.

stevenmu

I'm just going to go right ahead and say it: I feel bad for anyone not using Visual Studio.

I suppose I can't just make a statement like that without saying why, so here's a small selection of some of my favourite features

• Fantastic solution and file templates for huge range of scenarios
• Best auto-complete functionality bar none. This is especially useful working with a lot of 3rd party SDKs/APIs, it actually often works better than documentation.
• Powerful, easy to use debugging. It still amazes me that I can simply press the play button and start stepping through through my client side javascript, follow the calls to my web services, step line by line through that and follow it back to my client side again. Remote debugging is almost as easy too.
• Very simple functionality for building deployment packages etc.
• Great project management features
• Integrates well with source control
• Great WYSIWYG editors for a wide range of interface types, that generate well structured, standards compliant code

Although reading this thread reminds that I have been meaning to try out VsVIM, getting vim's capabilities in VS with everything else it has to offer would be an unbeatable combo.

oeb

moycullen14 wrote: »

You can implement it on windows but you can't replicate it. Our production servers are large, virtual servers running the same linux OS and software stack that I can run on my €400 laptop.

Really, this isn't a windows v linux thing, it's just that I find myself typically in environments where the production system is linux based so it helps to have the same environment - as much a possible - on my desk.

Not arguing with you, but other windows devs in the same situation might want to try virtualbox and vagrant (with chef for provisioning if you so desire) I can create a fully working, disposable clone of my live enviroment with a single command. (And more importantly, I can allow other developers do the same on their systems regardless of their OS of choice, allowing them to do full stack testing without messing with the live server).

I don't see the point in attempting to fully emulate a production enviroment on a local machine (Unless you have a dedicated testing server for it) other than through emulation.

ChRoMe

oeb wrote: »

I don't see the point in attempting to fully emulate a production enviroment on a local machine (Unless you have a dedicated testing server for it) other than through emulation.

I also found it bizarre, hence my asking what stack he was using.

awec

stevenmu wrote: »

I'm just going to go right ahead and say it: I feel bad for anyone not using Visual Studio.


I suppose I can't just make a statement like that without saying why, so here's a small selection of some of my favourite features

• Fantastic solution and file templates for huge range of scenarios
• Best auto-complete functionality bar none. This is especially useful working with a lot of 3rd party SDKs/APIs, it actually often works better than documentation.
• Powerful, easy to use debugging. It still amazes me that I can simply press the play button and start stepping through through my client side javascript, follow the calls to my web services, step line by line through that and follow it back to my client side again. Remote debugging is almost as easy too.
• Very simple functionality for building deployment packages etc.
• Great project management features
• Integrates well with source control
• Great WYSIWYG editors for a wide range of interface types, that generate well structured, standards compliant code

Although reading this thread reminds that I have been meaning to try out VsVIM, getting vim's capabilities in VS with everything else it has to offer would be an unbeatable combo.

Visual Studio is without a doubt the best IDE in existence. And that isn't even an exaggeration, it blows every single other offering out of the water. The competition is not even close.

But the OP said PHP, and while there is a PHP plugin for VS (I think) I reckon the features it supports won't be as wide as the "native" VS languages.

Colonel Panic

I use VS2008 and 2010 in work and 2012 at home (C++11, yo) and while I agree with the above for the most part, I think Xcode's code completion is starting to catch up and feels much quicker than VS unless you have Visual Assist. I think it's just the whole LLVM/Clang payoff coming through.

It's also got better C++11 support, which I'm putting a lot of time into using on my personal project. I was finally able to remove the Boost dependency from my game this week. This makes me happy.

The two issues with Xcode at the moment are the UI is still a bit odd, I preferred the last major version worked and LLDB, while powerful is still a pretty hands on debugger, but if you put the time into it, I think it's excellent.

Sparks

Hm. Y'know, looking through that list of features, I can't find one that is both (a) a feature you need in programming, and (b) not in both vim and emacs...

awec

Sparks wrote: »

Hm. Y'know, looking through that list of features, I can't find one that is both (a) a feature you need in programming, and (b) not in both vim and emacs...

This "need in programming" is a complete red herring IMO. I could open notepad and write my app and compile through the cmd but that's just ridiculous quite frankly.

If you mean "need" as in it's possible to function without then yes, I guess you are correct. It is possible.

If you mean "need" as in you can write applications of any size at all without the incredibly useful features of an IDE then I totally disagree, that's just nuts. It's making things more difficult for yourself just for the sake of making things more difficult for yourself.

It's like buying a car with no central locking, no immobiliser, no power steering, no electric windows, no radio etc. You don't need those things, but a car without them is going to be a heap of crap.

There is no way I could do without the intellisense, intellitrace, solution management and managed and native debugging facilities available in VS and quite frankly there's no reason why in 2013 I should have to. Creating something would take twice as long because I quite simply wouldn't be using the best tools available to do the job.

Sparks

awec wrote: »

This "need in programming" is a complete red herring IMO.

Really? Why would I need a WYSIWYG editor to write code?
HTML, maybe, but if you need an IDE or think it's programming to write HTML...

edit: hang on, do you mean a GUI designer?

If you mean "need" as in you can write applications of any size at all without the incredibly useful features of an IDE then I totally disagree, that's just nuts. It's making things more difficult for yourself just for the sake of making things more difficult for yourself.

Except that it isn't. Seriously, all the above programming features are available in vim and emacs. Now, you can argue that emacs is bigger than most IDEs (and most OSs) but vim?

There is no way I could do without the intellisense, intellitrace, solution management and managed and native debugging facilities available in VS and quite frankly there's no reason why in 2013 I should have to. Creating something would take twice as long because I quite simply wouldn't be using the best tools available to do the job.

Sure, but I've had all those things in vim for years.
The integrated debugging isn't so useful to me though because I need remote debugging, so gdb rules (whether with DDD or another front end) or in some cases, totalview. But it's there if you want it.
...mind you, I think some of the tools out there outside of IDEs are better. But that's just me, I may be an edge case.

Colonel Panic

VS does support remote debugging.

srsly78

Sparks how do you setup "jump to definition" using vim and c++? I use gvim and eclipse and gdb a lot but it's nowhere near as handy as VS. Eclipse is pretty bad for c++ as well I find, not nearly as good as vs.

Thread is about web development so we are off topic here :pac:

Sparks

srsly78 wrote: »

Sparks how do you setup "jump to definition" using vim and c++?

I use ctags myself, but you could also use cscope (doesn't work so well with c++ though) or one of the several IDE plugins for vim like Trinity. So for me, I just put the cursor on the function/variable/whatever and hit ctrl-rightarrow (I remapped ctrl-] just because it was easier for me) and it jumps to the definition; then ctrl-leftarrow jumps back to where you were.

I use gvim and eclipse and gdb a lot but it's nowhere near as handy as VS. Eclipse is pretty bad for c++ as well I find, not nearly as good as vs.

I don't like eclipse much myself - anything that eats that much memory ought to do a damn sight more IMO.
gdb's not as easy to single-step through code with (though DDD makes it a lot easier), and sometimes for that I'll use totalview; but honestly, for sheer ability to get in and debug stuff in odd places, especially remotely, I've never found anything better than gdb.

Thread is about web development so we are off topic here :pac:

A wee bit

moycullen14

oeb wrote: »

Not arguing with you, but other windows devs in the same situation might want to try virtualbox and vagrant (with chef for provisioning if you so desire) I can create a fully working, disposable clone of my live enviroment with a single command. (And more importantly, I can allow other developers do the same on their systems regardless of their OS of choice, allowing them to do full stack testing without messing with the live server).

I don't see the point in attempting to fully emulate a production enviroment on a local machine (Unless you have a dedicated testing server for it) other than through emulation.

I suppose my answer to that is 'why not have a production environment on my desk?'

I guess the point I was trying (badly) to make is that I no longer have any need to use windows - so I don't.

20+ years ago I learned how to shell program, use perl and unix systems programming. I can develop more efficiently in *nix environments than any other. You mightn't - but I can.

For years there were bits of application software that I could only get on Windows. I have either weened myself off these or I have perfectly adequate replacements.

I occasionally have to do work on MS SQLServer or Blackberry that require me to use windows but it's not enough to get me to change over. A lot of the time I was using windows for non coding reasons (Microsoft Office, Exchange, etc). Moving over to google docs, gmail has removed that dependency.

For me the real time killer is switching environments. You could argue forever between vi, emacs, eclipse, xcode, vs, netbeans and on and on. One thing that is true is that irrespective of which environment you use, the more you use it, the more productive you become. I work here with a guy who spends all his time using xcode for mac & ios development. He is super efficient with it yet any time I go on to xcode I keep trying to do things the way eclipse would and this leads to an unhappy experience and 'eclipse is better than xcode'

httpete

For everyone here that says they use Sublime Text as their IDE - How do you debug your application? ST is great and all but an integrated debugger is essential, it's the own thing that would put me off ST. So how do you deal with the debugging issue if you are a ST user?

oeb

httpete wrote: »

For everyone here that says they use Sublime Text as their IDE - How do you debug your application? ST is great and all but an integrated debugger is essential, it's the own thing that would put me off ST. So how do you deal with the debugging issue if you are a ST user?

I use xDebug. (There is a plugin here - https://github.com/Kindari/SublimeXdebug, I normally debug in browser though)

Sparks

httpete wrote: »

an integrated debugger is essential

No, just convenient.
That's the thing really, all an IDE is is convenience. Yes, you need the tools - debuggers, build tools, version control and so forth, and it's handy if they're all in one place provided they all work together the way you want them to (and you're stuffed if they don't of course) -- but at the end of the day, the only difference between an IDE and a plain jane DE is whether you work in one window or several.

(I may be biased, I've seen too many students who didn't so much use an IDE to speed up their already solid fundamental skills, but more as an exoskeleton that would do all the work for them while they sat in the middle with very little idea of what was going on or control over it. Granted, in industry that's not the norm, but bad first impressions stick around...).

lemon_remon

stevenmu wrote: »

I'm just going to go right ahead and say it: I feel bad for anyone not using Visual Studio.

I suppose I can't just make a statement like that without saying why, so here's a small selection of some of my favourite features

• Fantastic solution and file templates for huge range of scenarios
• Best auto-complete functionality bar none. This is especially useful working with a lot of 3rd party SDKs/APIs, it actually often works better than documentation.
• Powerful, easy to use debugging. It still amazes me that I can simply press the play button and start stepping through through my client side javascript, follow the calls to my web services, step line by line through that and follow it back to my client side again. Remote debugging is almost as easy too.
• Very simple functionality for building deployment packages etc.
• Great project management features
• Integrates well with source control
• Great WYSIWYG editors for a wide range of interface types, that generate well structured, standards compliant code

Although reading this thread reminds that I have been meaning to try out VsVIM, getting vim's capabilities in VS with everything else it has to offer would be an unbeatable combo.

IntelliJ has all of those features plus more. Perhaps the WYSIWYG editor isn't as good but that would be the only thing.

httpete

Sparks wrote: »

No, just convenient.
That's the thing really, all an IDE is is convenience. Yes, you need the tools - debuggers, build tools, version control and so forth, and it's handy if they're all in one place provided they all work together the way you want them to (and you're stuffed if they don't of course) -- but at the end of the day, the only difference between an IDE and a plain jane DE is whether you work in one window or several.

(I may be biased, I've seen too many students who didn't so much use an IDE to speed up their already solid fundamental skills, but more as an exoskeleton that would do all the work for them while they sat in the middle with very little idea of what was going on or control over it. Granted, in industry that's not the norm, but bad first impressions stick around...).

Sure you could apply that logic to a any DE. Ie. Developing in Notepad (basic windows notepad) is a convenience over coding straight from into the command prompt/terminal. Where do you draw the line on what's essential for development in 2013? I reckon debugging capability is well behind that theoretical line.

A debugger will save a huge amount of time in tracking down bugs. A debugger is not in the same realm as something like IDE code generation which does 'all the work for them' - A debugger just gives you a much more efficient view of what's going on under the hood. It doesn't do anything or automate anything for you, it simply shows you the variables/state of the system.

I know some people who don't use a debugger enough. They just keep rerunning an application, hoping it will work 'this time', rather than going into the debugger and nailing down the problem with one code-step through and saving themselves a ton of hassle and time, I just can't understand why they won't use it as a first port of call.

A debugger is essential at all levels of abstraction if you plan on getting anything done in a reasonable timeframe, from C#/Java down to coding with assemby and gdb.

Sparks

httpete wrote: »

Sure you could apply that logic to a any DE. Ie. Developing in Notepad (basic windows notepad) is a convenience over coding straight from into the command prompt/terminal.

...to a degree, maybe. But when you can do a search and replace from the commandline, I think perhaps you're running emacs and at that point there's no hope for you anyway

Where do you draw the line on what's essential for development in 2013? I reckon debugging capability is well behind that theoretical line.

Why?
No, seriously, why?
At what stage in the last forty years did we go from the point where it was essential to have a debugger to the point where it was essential to have that debugger deeply integrated with your editor?
What changed in our workloads that the extra second it takes to alt-tab (actually altGr-<number> but I use awesome so I'm a bit of an outlier) between your debugger and your editor has added too much overhead to allow you to be productive?

I just don't buy it, sorry.

A debugger will save a huge amount of time in tracking down bugs. A debugger is not in the same realm as something like IDE code generation which does 'all the work for them' - A debugger just gives you a much more efficient view of what's going on under the hood. It doesn't do anything or automate anything for you, it simply shows you the variables/state of the system.

Warning, old fart alert
I don't just remember when debuggers weren't normally an integral part of an IDE, I work with a debugger outside of an IDE every day (some days I use gdb, some days I use totalview, all days I use vim. I don't need one to be built into the other)

I know some people who don't use a debugger enough. They just keep rerunning an application, hoping it will work 'this time', rather than going into the debugger and nailing down the problem with one code-step through and saving themselves a ton of hassle and time, I just can't understand why they won't use it as a first port of call.