42% of entire Euro zone crisis paid for by Ireland according to Eurostat

Poster Boy

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/42-of-europes-banking-crisis-paid-by-ireland-219703.html

1. Am I the only one is amazed that there isn't outrage at this, given this is an official figure from the EU?

2. Unless I am mistaken, this does not appear to have been reported on RTÉ. If not, why not?

3. Am I the only one to believe the EU is effectively implementing a policy of collective guilt against Irish citizens for the actions of a failed elite, who are seemingly even more unaccountable now, with higher civil servants being overpaid by EU to be fixed on our necks at a later date - and all the while, there have been no major successful relevant prosecutions to date?

I am just wondering if I'm the only one, that's all.

Mods if this has been done already, feel free to move, thanks.

FatherLen

it's grand, we'll get the next one.

Poster Boy

Poster Boy wrote: »

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/42-of-europes-banking-crisis-paid-by-ireland-219703.html

1. Am I the only one is amazed that there isn't outrage at this, given this is an official figure from the EU?

2. From what I can tell, unless I am mistaken, this does not appear to have been reported on RTÉ. If not, why not?

3. Am I the only one to believe the EU is effectively implementing a policy of collective guilt against Irish citizens for the actions of a failed elite, who are seemingly even more unaccountable now, with higher civil servants being overpaid by EU to be fixed on our necks at a later date - and all the while, there have been no major successful relevant prosecutions to date?

I am just wondering if I'm the only one, that's all.

Mods if this has been done already, feel free to move, thanks.

It was our banks, why should anyone else pay for them?

Zebra3

Enzo Acidic Textbook wrote: »

It was our banks, why should anyone else pay for them?

Nope, the banks belonged to their shareholders.

They reaped the profits, we somehow paid for the losses. :rolleyes:

Pottler

Enzo Acidic Textbook wrote: »

It was our banks, why should anyone else pay for them?

Sorry, It was our banks? I've never had a bank, at least not that I noticed, and I feel I would have. And if was my bank, can I please have my share of the boomtime profits I was due?

BTW, it's called a Eurozone Crisis as it affects the Whole Eurozone, Spain, Greece, Italy, etc etc. I.E, we're not 42% of it, more like 2%, so we're being shafted, as it happens.

Seaneh

Enzo Acidic Textbook wrote: »

It was our banks, why should anyone else pay for them?

they were state owned when they went tits up were they? i thought that hapoened after.

quirkster

Our elite were told over a phone call to not let our banks fail, because their debt was held by major German, French and American banks who would fail if we let ours go. So goes the rumor anyway.

What happened is essentially akin to betting on a horse at a race. The horse lost, but the bettors are getting their money back anyway and then some more at a profit. They bought our banks debts aware of risk, and accepting the risk of default. It happened, but we the public were forced to secure them, in order to stop the foreign banks from failing.

twinytwo

It makes you wonder what it will take before the people of this country will get up off their asses.

Zebra3

Zebra3 wrote: »

Nope, the banks belonged to their shareholders.

They reaped the profits, we somehow paid for the losses. :rolleyes:

Once we joined a unionised currency we lost the ability to print money and any bank losses we incurred in the future would always be socialized. Only a fool would think otherwise. Did you vote to join the Euro, did your parents? blame them/you or whoever voted.

breadmonster

same story with graphs here:
http://www.thejournal.ie/readme/banking-crisis-bill-ireland-755464-Jan2013/

Poster Boy

Pottler wrote: »

BTW, it's called a Eurozone Crisis as it affects the Whole Eurozone, Spain, Greece, Italy, etc etc. I.E, we're not 42% of it, more like 2%, so we're being shafted, as it happens.

The population within the 26 counties accounts for circa 0.5% of the overall EU population, so in actual fact its even worse than you have outlined above.

Coming back to the RTÉ aspect, perhaps i am wrong, yet I genuinely have not seen this reported. If this is the case, in my opinion it is even worse than when I had to find out from the BBC about the IMF being in Dublin. If this is so, why do we tolerate the odious burden of such an entity?

Chips Lovell

I suppose the first question is, were our banks responsible for 42 per cent of the Eurozone crisis.

MagicSean

Enzo Acidic Textbook wrote: »

It was our banks, why should anyone else pay for them?

Where do you think the irish banks got the money to lend? European banks. But for some reason the European banks didn't have to suffer because of their bad decision.

yosser hughes

The Fianna Faíl party with their accomplices the Greens guaranteed our banks liabilities.There was no phone call, that's spin from those parties. Brian Cowen was playing golf with Sean Fitzpatrick a few weeks before that guarantee and claims nothing was discussed. if you want to believe that, then good for you. the truth about that guarantee has yet to come out.

These two parties were elected by the people and these two parties took that decision on your behalf. If you voted for Fianna fail then you knew exactly what you were voting for.( the party of Ahern, Haughey, Burke,Flynn, DeValera.............. etc.)

This country INVITED the IMF in. It had to. Other entities are writing the cheques to keep this country going and overpay our public servants.

Poster Boy

Enzo Acidic Textbook wrote: »

Once we joined a unionised currency we lost the ability to print money and any bank losses we incurred in the future would always be socialized. Only a fool would think otherwise. Did you vote to join the Euro, did your parents? blame them/you or whoever voted.

People were not informed to this at the time, therefore they did not have the choice.

As far as I am aware, in no part of the founding agreement did it indicate that the ECB would be able to dictate government to individual states.

It is only now that it seems reasonably clear what the ECB is, that being the European Cartel of Banking - in which Ireland has no say, but is the bitch for the bigger vested interests.

twinytwo

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

I suppose the first question is, were our banks responsible for 42 per cent of the Eurozone crisis.

No they where however forced to take on the debts of many Plc's....

@ Goose we were forced to save the bondholders in order to save the euro

Doc Ruby

quirkster wrote: »

Our elite were told over a phone call to not let our banks fail

It was by letter I believe. We should be taking the ECB to court for gross abuse of its powers and going far beyond those powers.

Nine grand a head, then we get posters like fratton fred calling us the "Oliver Twists" of Europe. Laughable, but no more so than usual.

Chips Lovell

Poster Boy wrote: »

Am I the only one is amazed that there isn't outrage at this, given this is an official figure from the EU?

Why are you amazed? I mean it's not like the bill for the banking crisis hasn't been bandied around at length in the media before. It's costing us around €62 billion all told. The reason Eurostat are only reporting €41 billion is that around €20 billion came from the NPRF.

Pottler

Poster Boy wrote: »

People were not informed to this at the time, therefore they did not have the choice.

As far as I am aware, in no part of the founding agreement did it indicate that the ECB would be able to dictate government to individual states.

It is only now that it seems reasonably clear what the ECB is, that being the European Cartel of Banking - in which Ireland has no say, but is the bitch for the bigger vested interests.

The fact that people are dopey enough to argue against the figure in the OP and justify it, ought to show what you are up against expecting any outrage at this. "Sure it is what it is, sure you voted them in, sure if you don't like it leave, sure ye knew this was what was going to happen, sure what else could have been done... etc etc etc". What a massive, utter load of doormattish b0llox.

Ould Mr Brennan

Everytime i read one of these it give me more and more of an urge to go all Facekicker on the FF scumbags that got us into this.

It WILL happen someday Boards. Dont treat me badly when it happens

Poster Boy

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

Why are you amazed? I mean it's not like the bill for the banking crisis hasn't been bandied around at length in the media before. It's costing us around €62 billion all told. The reason Eurostat are only reporting €41 billion is that around €20 billion came from the NPRF.

Good point. So what's the actual real per cent cost - as opposed to massaged figures from Eurostat, or the absence of data from our own shower?

Anyone got any verifiable stats? Ta

Chips Lovell

Poster Boy wrote: »

Good point. So what's the actual real per cent cost - as opposed to massaged figures from Eurostat, or the absence of data from our own shower?

Anyone got any verifiable stats? Ta

It depends on what year you choose. But it would be about 38 per cent of our 2009 GDP for example.

I think it's beyond doubt our banks were the worst hit. But we weren't alone. Outside the EU, Iceland had to put around 30 per cent of its GDP into its banks.

Poster Boy

Ould Mr Brennan wrote: »

Everytime i read one of these it give me more and more of an urge to go all Facekicker on the FF scumbags that got us into this.

It WILL happen someday Boards. Dont treat me badly when it happens

Why simply blame FF?

Since being elected 22 months ago, Fine Gael / Labour have:

> Failed to deliver accountability

> Failed to substantially reduce the artificial and odious debt that is being collectively fixed onto Irish citizens

> Failed to lead by example in terms of cutting from the top with regards to their own grossly excessive pay.

The last lot allowed the rot to happen; this lot are allowing it to crystallize and become permanent.

At the rate things are going, it seems to me that Fine Gael and Labour will follow Fianna Fáil to their logical and legitimate place in the dustbin of history.

gallag

I feel so sorry for the irish, complete sham, iceland let the banks go and are doing great now, every irish child is now in dept to save a hand full of billionaires.

Shenshen

Zebra3 wrote: »

Nope, the banks belonged to their shareholders.

They reaped the profits, we somehow paid for the losses. :rolleyes:

It was our politicians who insisted on guaranteeing the banks.
We may not own the banks, but we elected the politicians.

gallag

Tell the EU to do one and together we will make the commonwealth stronger than ever, the fighting irish would not let us brits scam yous if we tried but for some reason roll over for the EU??? Fight for your childrens future, day light robbery.

Chips Lovell

gallag wrote: »

...iceland let the banks go and are doing great now...

The Icelandic situation is often misrepresented. Iceland did let its banks go bust, but then created new banks that were all capitalised by the state. The cost of doing that to the Icelandic exchequer wasn't too far off what Ireland spent bailing out its banks. And the cost could rise pending the outcome of a number of international court cases, because it opted to burn foreign deposit holders, who were then compensated by their own governments. The British government, for one, is trying to get that money back now.

Pottler

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

It depends on what year you choose. But it would be about 38 per cent of our 2009 GDP for example.

I think it's beyond doubt our banks were the worst hit. But we weren't alone. Outside the EU, Iceland had to put around 30 per cent of its GDP into its banks.

See that insidious, sneaky little word there, "Our". Like I said, I didn't have a bank, I doubt any of the other Boardsies posting here had one, and I doubt if 90% of the population had one. Those who held shares in one come the closest to the "our bank" crew.

They were "The Banks", i.e private businesses run for private profit casting their private losses onto the public purse. Same as every other crap, bloated, deluded and wasteful Private business that got bailed out of their private mess with public money. "Our" me hole.

If your Pension funds were cast into the black hole(NPRF? etc), your Taxes bunged down the crevasse and your services cut to bung a sandbag down the fissure, they're still not "your" Bank. Wander in and ask to borrow some money and you'll quickly see just how much of "our banks" they actually are.

Chips Lovell

Pottler wrote: »

See that insidious, sneaky little word there, "Our". Like I said, I didn't have a bank, I doubt any of the other Boardsies posting here had one, and I doubt if 90% of the population had one. Those who held shares in one come the closest to the "our bank" crew.

I think you know what I meant. They were Irish banks, serving Irish customers. Hence the "our" banks.

Poster Boy

gallag wrote: »

Tell the EU to do one and together we will make the commonwealth stronger than ever, the fighting irish would not let the us brits scam yous if we tried but for some reason roll over for the EU??? Fight for your childrens future, day light robbery.

Regrettably, you have a point - it's now appearing that the Union with Europe is working out worse for Ireland than the disastrous Act of Union with the UK in 1801.

If this is the entry fee, it is clearly not worth it.

Experience indicates that when might is let become right, might increases its right at the cost to real "right".

Expect nothing from Kenny, Gilmore and co except further failure.

Expect nothing from the EU except further economic gutting of what was once a sovereign nation.

This isn't capitalism, it's theft.

Poster Boy

Pottler wrote: »

See that insidious, sneaky little word there, "Our". Like I said, I didn't have a bank, I doubt any of the other Boardsies posting here had one, and I doubt if 90% of the population had one. Those who held shares in one come the closest to the "our bank" crew.

They were "The Banks", i.e private businesses run for private profit casting their private losses onto the public purse. Same as every other crap, bloated, deluded and wasteful Private business that got bailed out of their private mess with public money. "Our" me hole.

If your Pension funds were cast into the black hole(NPRF? etc), your Taxes bunged down the crevasse and your services cut to bung a sandbag down the fissure, they're still not "your" Bank. Wander in and ask to borrow some money and you'll quickly see just how much of "our banks" they actually are.

I should say that personally I was "fortunate" enough to have bank shares.

Obviously there effectively worthless now - but that's my problem; I made the investment, so I take the hit. Obviously I am not convinced the manner by which the banks were run did not amount to reckless trading - but that's another issue.

What really galls me is to see people who had no investment in these institutions be fixed with the bill in order to pay out other foreign investors (ie EU banks) who did have a choice whether to invest or not.

That's the issue, and that's why this is theft.

Pottler

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

I think you know what I meant. They were Irish banks, serving Irish customers. Hence the "our" banks.

Sorry, they were Corporate entities serving their Directors and Shareholders with the entire focus being profit retention and share price increases.. They never "served" customers, they accepted Deposits and provided Loans, to the benefit of the Corporate body.

No-one who has ever dealt with a Bank has ever been under the impression the Bank was "Serving" them. They are banks, not coffee-shops. Cofee shops "serve customers", Banks serve shareholders. Let the Shareholders bail them out, I want no part of it and would gladly have seen them go under. Others would have rapidly replaced them.

BTW, is it not laughable that since their very public failure and bailout, they are even worse to deal with than before?? And even more ruthless in pusuing others who also happened to "Fail". And no, I owe the fcukers nothing, just in case that was going to come up. They were not, and are not "OUR" Banks. They were banks.

Chips Lovell

Poster Boy wrote: »

What really galls me is to see people who had no investment in these institutions be fixed with the bill in order to pay out other foreign investors (ie EU banks) who did have a choice whether to invest or not.

That's the issue, and that's why this is theft.

Given the likely cost and economic impact of letting all of our banks fail, I guarantee you that many of the same people complaining about bailing out the banks would be on here complaining about why we didn't do anything during the financial crisis, if that had happened.

Could we have done it more efficiently? Probably, yes. Could we have done it in a way that didn't involve incurring a significant cost, i.e. tens of billions. No way.

tacofries

MagicSean wrote: »

Where do you think the irish banks got the money to lend? European banks. But for some reason the European banks didn't have to suffer because of their bad decision.

I'm not being a d*ck but I genuinely don't know, what do you mean by Irish banks?

Where AIB, BOI, Permanent Tsb etc. in anyway owned by the irish people or government? Where they supported/funded by the government before the collapse and did they recieve any profits etc.(not incl corp tax) before the collapse??

Genuine questions,,... Im fairly un-educated about the situation pre-crisis!

dlouth15

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

The Icelandic situation is often misrepresented. Iceland did let its banks go bust, but then created new banks that were all capitalised by the state. The cost of doing that to the Icelandic exchequer wasn't too far off what Ireland spent bailing out its banks.

Would you have figures for that?

Poster Boy

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

Given the likely cost and economic impact of letting all of our banks fail, I guarantee you that many of the same people complaining about bailing out the banks would be on here complaining about why we didn't do anything during the financial crisis, if that had happened.

Could we have done it more efficiently? Probably, yes. Could we have done it in a way that didn't involve incurring a significant cost, i.e. tens of billions. No way.

My understanding is that the initial intention was to guarantee deposits only.

Then our wonderful "EU friends" intervened - and it is this latter aspect that is financially smashing the country.

This weekend the good people of Ballyhea are having their 100th protest. I'm interested in going down from Dublin for the day to demonstrate solidarity; if there are any other interested boardsies, perhaps we could share the ride?

http://news-beacon-ireland.info/?p=10124

dvpower

Thread title is misleading. Refers to the entire eurozone crisis, linked article refers to the banking crisis.

Poster Boy

dvpower wrote: »

Thread title is misleading. Refers to the entire eurozone crisis, linked article refers to the banking crisis.

Sorry, didn't mean to disturb you. Please go back to sleep.

Eathrin

I'm actually so embarrassed for our country and our leaders. Greedy bastards.

Ava_e

We are the whipping boys of Europe. Every Euro that is taken out of your pay is a direct result of what happened when our Goverment agreed to insure the bond holders that lost out when they gambled on our banks.



Our health and saftey is at risk, with cut backs in the medical and Garda field.

Welfare cuts to the blind/disabled and those that care for them shocking and depressing.

sfwcork

These kind of threads always make my blood boil.I work hard in my job and every month I get slapped with heavy tax.

What really annoys me is that the current lot are no better.They are masters of spin.Really annoys me that kenny always says were building for the future but when his back is up against the wall he often blames Ff

Its becoming increasing clear that ths lot also look after their own first

UCDVet

sfwcork wrote: »

These kind of threads always make my blood boil.I work hard in my job and every month I get slapped with heavy tax.

What really annoys me is that the current lot are no better.They are masters of spin.Really annoys me that kenny always says were building for the future but when his back is up against the wall he often blames Ff

Its becoming increasing clear that ths lot also look after their own first

There is nothing worse than knowing 'Alright - I've hit the big time! From now on, every advancement I make in my career, every extra hour I spend studying or working - I'll get 49% of it. Then, everything I buy...I'll pay another ~15-20% VAT on'.

Other people aren't just getting a 'cut' of your good fortune - they're getting the bulk of it.

For people living/working in Dublin the cost of living is such that you're being taxed like a millionaire while being hard pressed to afford even a middle-class style life.

I'm sure some countries have it worse, but most are much better in this regard.

sfwcork

I feel sorry for the people who are either plannng or coming out of college

What future do they have.

Chips Lovell

dlouth15 wrote: »

Would you have figures for that?

Sure. Details on equity provided to banks is here:

Nýi Kaupþing - ISK 75 billion
Nýi Glitnir - ISK 110 billion
NBI - ISK 200 billion
Total = 385 billion

Icelandic GDP was ISK 1,483 billion in 2008

That's roughly 26 per cent of 2008 GDP.

If Iceland loses the court case (judgement on which is due next week) it's liable for another ISK 695 billion to the British and Dutch governments, who had compensated savers in Icelandic banks after they went bust.

This bit of analysis is also worth a read. For example:

Compared to the UK, Icelandic taxpayers will pay 5 to 7 times more for government interventions in the financial market than is the case in the UK. Hence, the widely held belief that Icelandic citizens did force bondholders, bankers and shareholders of financial firms to shoulder the burden of the collapse of the Icelandic financial sector is wrong. Icelandic taxpayers used what amounts to almost a year’s worth of taxes to recapitalise the domestic part of the financial sector. Whether these bailouts were necessary or not can be debated but the cost of 20-25% of GDP is, according to our calculations, a reality.

wexie

sfwcork wrote: »

I feel sorry for the people who are either plannng or coming out of college

What future do they have.

A lot more of one than all the people that were out of college and working with mortgages before the whole thing came crashing down and are now stuck here (possibly jobless) courtesy of inescapable negative equity etc. etc. etc.

At least a new graduate has the option to up sticks and go find greener pastures (unless they've studied something which made them eminently unemployable) whereas there are numerous people that don't have that option.

twinytwo

sfwcork wrote: »

I feel sorry for the people who are either plannng or coming out of college

What future do they have.

Aus/Canada.... but sure according to the government we are only leaving for the laugh

Zebra3

Shenshen wrote: »

It was our politicians who insisted on guaranteeing the banks.
We may not own the banks, but we elected the politicians.

And your point is what exactly?

Where in FF or the Greens election manifestos did it say the taxpayer would foot the bill for collapsed private businesses? Their actions went against all the capitalist agenda that they were elected on.

Those bastards betrayed the country.

The matter was so serious that a GE should have called as the government had no mandate to financially rape the taxpayer in the way that it did.

G Power

sfwcork wrote: »

I feel sorry for the people who are either plannng or coming out of college

What future do they have.

none if the country doesn't grow a pair very fast!! :(:(

jacksie66

This post has been deleted.

ejmaztec

Zebra3 wrote: »

And your point is what exactly?

Where in FF or the Greens election manifestos did it say the taxpayer would foot the bill for collapsed private businesses? Their actions went against all the capitalist agenda that they were elected on.

Those bastards betrayed the country.

The matter was so serious that a GE should have called as the government had no mandate to financially rape the taxpayer in the way that it did.

The present bunch would have screwed us with the liability as well, so it probably wouldn't have made any difference. Our politicians are a bunch of gutless pussies where the EU is concerned. The only time a political party complains about the EU is when it's not in power.

Zebra3

ejmaztec wrote: »

The present bunch would have screwed us with the liability as well, so it probably wouldn't have made any difference. Our politicians are a bunch of gutless pussies where the EU is concerned. The only time a political party complains about the EU is when it's not in power.

Maybe.

But if a GE had been called and the parties had outlined their positions clearly on whether or not they were going to privatise the gambling debts then regardless of who got in, at least it would have been the decision of the people.

As it stands the vast majority of the parasites who destroyed the country are off living it up with their fat pensions that we are also paying for.

All in this together me hole.....