Suicide: 'Irish suicide rate one of highest in Europe'

Dostoevsky

*Officially*, 237 teenagers and young men in Ireland took their own lives in 2012. This is only the official figure. It does not include so many more "accidental" deaths, never mind young women. It also does not include the many people who do not qualify as "young people" such as Shane McEntee (to take the most high profile person last year).

The real situation, I suspect, is considerably worse than these figures. Personally, I know seven people directly affected by suicide (i.e. an immediate family member) in the past 18 months.

Irish suicide rate one of highest in Europe, new report shows

All Ireland bid to tackle suicide

Strategies set to tackle young male suicide

---

UCDVet

I was reading an article (I think it was in the IrishTimes) that was honestly suggesting we could cut down the number of suicides if we just made it harder for people to get a hold of 'dangerous' things.

I lol'd so hard.

Death and Taxes

The governemnt and Kathleen Lynch in particular couldn't give a toss about suicide.
Last year they "ringfenced" €35,000,000 for suicide prevention, but instead of spending it on suicide prevention it was used to fill gaps in general HSE funding.
Pisses me off when I see government politicans crying crocodile tears over the high levels of suicide.:mad:

MadsL

UCDVet wrote: »

I was reading an article (I think it was in the IrishTimes) that was honestly suggesting we could cut down the number of suicides if we just made it harder for people to get a hold of 'dangerous' things.

I lol'd so hard.

There seems to be this attitude in Northern Western Europe (actually probably just UK and Ireland) that if you ban things the nasty stuff goes away.

At one point there were calls for bans on pointed kitchen knives in the UK.

I swear in twenty years the UK will have everyone wrapped in kevlar with CCTV cameras on head, chest and back just to make sure they keep you 'safe'.

Best username ever

That official figure is half than what was suggested on newstalk this morning, 500 at least the comments were.

orestes

I'd agree that the real numbers are most likely a lot higher, but at least suicide is being acknowledged in the media rather than swept under the carpet and treated as a dirty word. Fingers crossed it's a step in the right direction for attitudes towards mental health.

Pottler

If you consider Derry Clarkes sons death, which was announced as an accident, but was in reality suicide, and then carry that forward, it is easy to surmise that an awful lot of suicides are reported as "accidents".

I don't mean this in any way as a disparagement of Derry Clarke, I fully understand and empathise with what was done, I'm just saying that the true tragic figures may well be much, much higher than oficially reported.

Really, it's a national emergency which should be of higher priority than even road safety(more are dying by suicide).

tempura

The whole attitude to suicide and mental health in this country is beyond sad.

People need to educate themselves as to why this turns into the only options for some. Some people assume that if you say you are depressed you are just a bit down, its a pull yourself together attitude to a lot, which only compounds the feelings of someone who feels this way and leads him/her down darker paths.

I honestly think mental health issues should be covered in school. Children are educated not smoke as they will get cancer, eat healthy or they may get heart disease, speak up if you are bullied. But never is the subject of mental illness brought up.

My partner is Bipolar and I love him dearly, but when I see how difficult it is for him to access services it makes my so angry. Needless to say if he was wealthy if most likely would not be a problem to get good counselling , good Doctors , general decent care. But he is at the mercy of our Health Service and the amount of **** ups I have seen in the past few years in relation to someone with mental health issues is disgusting.



I spent a night a couple of weeks ago in a Dublin Hospital and watched him puke into bag after bag, while sitting in a chair, in A&E, he was in this chair for two days and two nights as there were no beds available. He was ignored by most of the Nurses as they were run off their feet and had a few derogatory remarks made to him as it was assumed he was a Junkie. He was there in relation to his illness, however it is personal so I won't go into it. Bottom line, he now has a long road ahead in getting access to services to help, and he is one of the willing ones. There are many who have no idea where to turn. Its a ****ing disgrace for a so called educated country. I don't have the answers, but one of them is understanding , compassion, being a good friend, sister, brother, mother, father. You might think someone in your life is fine, but take time to talk, let them know they are not alone. Too many backs are turned these days while people are busy with their own lives.

Bit of a rant, but am dissapointed with this country right now.

Chain_reaction

An Irish solution to an Irish problem: Ignore it until it goes away.

Look at the airtime and advertising the RSA gets compared to suicide its a joke!!

I know of at least one guy who's death was listed as accidental when it wasn't.

Icepick

Well, we had to be best at something.

IM0

would be interesting to know the rates for every year of the last decade in this country

so 2012 was 250, what about 2002, 3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11?

any stats on those years?

Timmyctc

Chain_reaction wrote: »

An Irish solution to an Irish problem: Ignore it until it goes away.

Look at the airtime and advertising the RSA gets compared to suicide its a joke!!

I know of at least one guy who's death was listed as accidental when it wasn't.

I agree in a comparative sense the amount of time the RSA gets in comparison to Suicide isn't fair but our road deaths in the country for a long time were far far far too high. I do agree though that Suicide prevention and mental illness awareness in this country fall far short of necessity.

orestes

IM0 wrote: »

would be interesting to know the rates for every year of the last decade in this country

so 2012 was 250, what about 2002, 3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11?

any stats on those years?

Statistics from the National Suicide Research Foundation for 2000 - 2010

http://www.nsrf.ie/cms/?q=node/36

Best username ever

IM0 wrote: »

would be interesting to know the rates for every year of the last decade in this country

so 2012 was 250, what about 2002, 3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11?

any stats on those years?

I bet it's so much higher now than during the Celtic tiger years, economic difficulties is to blame, people unable to find work, loosing homes, marriages falling apart because of all of the above.

Depression and feelings of dispare kick in.
It's one of Ireland's biggest problems at the moment.

The government just want it covered up so nobody points the finger.

Cowards.



Edit: just saw the figures above.

Pottler

I also had to have a grim little laugh at the "gem" slipped into the 6-1 news, "eliminate some of the dangerous items they have access to". Dopiest comment of the year, possibly, and I look forward to seeing the proposed legislation drafted to somehow "hide" the nations roads and bridges from young males. If it was not such a dumb, symptomatic rather than causal response it would be genuinely funny.
"Joe, young Jimmy is suicidal!"
"Jasus, hide all the rope and knives, quick".
I'm not even sure what category of official innanity this comes under. Feck solving the problem, hide the knives. OK.... I won't hold my breath for an intelligent, properly rescourced, joined up responce to the problem so.

Real Life

What sort of thing are other countries doing thats different?
What can our government do to prevent it?

serious questions, im not defending the government in any way i just want to know what actually can be done.
I say this as someone who has what i would consider to be pretty bad depression so im not trying to brush the matter under the rug.

Jacob T

It's a lot easier to prevent road deaths than suicide to be fair, if someone really doesn't want help and doesn't make others aware of their depression - how do you prevent them from killing themselves?

orestes

Jacob T wrote: »

It's a lot easier to prevent road deaths than suicide to be fair, if someone really doesn't want help and doesn't make others aware of their depression - how do you prevent them from killing themselves?

A lot of people don't get help because they don't want to be looked at like they are some kind of freak or to be dismissed out of hand. -"you're depressed? Sure what do you have to be depressed about, there's people starving in Africa, have a pint and cheer up fer fecks sake".

Acknowledging the seriousness of mental health issues, and how many suffer from them so that people realise they aren't alone, would go a long way to people feeling more comfortable asking for help, AWARE do a great job but the government really needs to get their arses behind it too.

Pottler

Jacob T wrote: »

It's a lot easier to prevent road deaths than suicide to be fair, if someone really doesn't want help and doesn't make others aware of their depression - how do you prevent them from killing themselves?

How about for a start, provide Govt funded, 24hr manned helplines like the Samaritans struggle to do? How about improve access to and availability of, primary care for sufferers of mental health issues? How about much, much more open and honest discussion of the subject? That might do for a start, if you give people a forum for their suggestions, I believe you will not be long about finding solutions. And how about actually providing realistic, solid funding for measures in this field? As opposed to lip service, poor service and no service?

UCDVet

Pottler wrote: »

How about for a start, provide Govt funded, 24hr manned helplines like the Samaritans struggle to do? How about improve access to and availability of, primary care for sufferers of mental health issues? How about much, much more open and honest discussion of the subject? That might do for a start, if you give people a forum for their suggestions, I believe you will not be long about finding solutions. And how about actually providing realistic, solid funding for measures in this field? As opposed to lip service, poor service and no service?

In theory - I love it.
In practice - you'll get a fancy 'Chairman for something' or 'Director of Mental something else' who works 70% of the year while getting a 150k salary. His or her 'department' or 'organization' will have some million euro budget, most of which will be spent questionably at best. Nice offices, nice pay checks for well educated, qualified, business/politically minded folk to run things and look at charts and make the difficult decisions. At the very bottom of it all, you'd have the people providing the actual service....they'll be woefully underfunded and largely ineffective.

The director will then publish an annual report saying how under-reported suicide is and how it's a fast growing epidemic and push to interpret any questionable death as a suicide. Then they'll print charts showing a 'culture of suicide' and fight to 'raise awareness' (read - scare the crap out of parents). They'll publish stuff about cute kids and Mums who killed themselves and emphasize how it COULD HAPPEN TO YOUR FAMILY.

It'll be more about PR and generating revenue than actually helping anyone.

mikom

Pottler wrote: »

I also had to have a grim little laugh at the "gem" slipped into the 6-1 news, "eliminate some of the dangerous items they have access to".

They will probably class the internet as one of the dangerous items...... ya know how social media is causing Ireland to have one of the highest suicide rates in Europe.....

Pottler

mikom wrote: »

They will probably class the internet as one of the dangerous items...... ya know how social media is causing Ireland to have one of the highest suicide rates in Europe.....

Quite right, obviously the best solution to Irelands suicide problem is a complete ban on all media coverage. Used to work for big issues...

Latchy

Pottler wrote: »

Quite right, obviously the best solution to Irelands suicide problem is a complete ban on all media coverage. Used to work for big issues...

Keeping a lid on the truth was something Irish society did very well for decades but the genie is out of the bottle a long time now and he's not going back in .

Lyaiera

I was talking to a friend about this earlier on. We started out with a general moan about finding something to do to get fit. Obviously, you can run around a park but this was more about the general attitude to health and fitness. To a lot of people fitness and health is goal that takes hard, boring work to achieve because "it's good for you." Being fit is the goal, not the natural result of having an enjoyable, happy life. You shouldn't be fit and healthy because it'll cause less misery for you, you should be fit and healthy because it's part of an enjoyable life and allows you to have more enjoyment from life. (This is sort if where all the fitness guru talk about lifestyle changes comes from.)

We then started talking about the suicide reports and the shockingly high level of suicides here. And one of the things that came up was Mens Sheds. I think most people will know a bit about them now, but they were an Aussie invention of having a community shed, where elderly men could get together and build stuff and fix things, form friendships and actually have people about who they could communicate with on their own level about their problems, be it mental or physical health, loneliness, whatever. (Although wiki says the Irish Mens Sheds are aimed at all ages and not just elderly men.)

Anyway, I've been on a researching kick about these types of community endeavours for the past few hours, posted on a few forums here about it and generally been looking at the legal situation of things. You can setup clubs in Ireland (I have no idea how, I can find very few mentions of it anywhere) but traditionally it was a method of getting booze outside of pub hours and then a way for sports clubs to have their own pub, and more recently they've become a way to allow gambling while there's no gambling legislation. And I find that a whole load of bollix.

In Sweden there's a huge amount of government funding. It would shock pretty much any Irish person to see how much money goes towards youth clubs. This is money that the kids and young adults get to decide how they spend themselves. It has to be for official youth club stuff, like equipment or training, or internet connections or rent for a premesis. But they get it by the bucketload, enough even for the bigger ones to own their own premises. And this pisses me off in two ways, first off there's not that level of support for youth clubs here. Secondly there's even less support for these kinds of things for the entire adult population.

In fairness, you have quite a few sports clubs. I just don't think that goes far enough. These Mens Sheds are showing there is a demand from "grown ups" for social outlets outside of sports and outside of boozing in pubs (both of which are hugely linked anyway.) Look at the recent Kerry County Council shambles, talking about people in rural areas losing their only social outlet of the pub. How fecking sad is that, that the only option they had for socialising was going to the pub. There should be way more than that for anyone (generally speaking.) And it shouldn't be a commercial endeavour for some business man to get rich off of or to pull the rug from under if it's only helping 50 people and not the 65 people he needs to make a profit.

There has long been support for sports clubs, and even that's drying up. However look at the most popular sport in the world, football. You have soccer clubs for people really interested. And you have kids playing games in their parks. Now you have regular 5/6/7 a-side leagues going. Now even with the most popular sport on the planet there isn't anything catering for the people who those options don't work for. My brother is in college, he doesn't have time for much team sports and can't commit to a 5 a-side league. He does however play the occasional social game. Himself and his friends and their friends get together when they can and rent a third of a pitch from the university, a pitch that's subsidised meaning they can afford it. Now think of the adults who are working regular jobs, or who are looking for work, don't have the money to rent a pitch (from a businessman out to make profit) don't have the ability to commit to a team or league because they're too busy or they're simply not interested in the level of commitment needed for it. Then there's the people who wouldn't know enough people to get a game going. Is there anywhere in the country that simply says, "have the pitch on Sunday afternoon, whoever turns up can play a game. If you get 30 people play 11 a side and make regular subs, if you get 5 people play 3 & in. This pitch will be there for you every Sunday whoever turns up." And that's just with soccer, what if they wanted to play basketball another week, handball another, tennis, badminton, etc. And that's only with sports aspect.

All of this, I believe comes back to the idea that people will be much better off, people will be healthier, happier and there will be far less suicides if there was more a sense of community and community involvement. Where people could show up to a pitch on a Sunday and find a game with anyone else interested, or people could get together to build and or get together to race rc cars, or knit, or play computer games, or shoot bows and arrows or even make bows and arrows. And most importantly they get to do it with other people without feeling like they're signing their every weekend away but can dip in and out of a community of engaged people.

And I don't mean the kind of bollocksology community of Tidy Towns where people do it to peek over neighbours fences, but a proper community where people share in activities, sports, arguments and debates and even just socialising. And the sad thing about all of this is that I know there's actually some (albeit minor) funding for this kind of thing. It's just that it's not well publicised because they'd run out of money in a flash, and it's targeted at "at-risk" groups. And to that I say bollocks. The entirety of Ireland is "at-risk" at the moment. There should be money being poured into resources and groups that instead of just talking about things and providing "information and advice services" actually does things that allows people to be happier in their life. And it shouldn't be at the mercy of an entrepreneur out to make money off people. At the least there should be an advisory body showing people what services, funding and support is available to them to build these community resources. And the sad thing about all of this is that pretty much the best example I can think of of one of these types of "communities" is Boards itself.

Tom_Cruise

Why do they compare the Irish suicide rate just to other European countrys, and not the rest of the world?

Procasinator

Lyaiera wrote: »

I was talking to a friend about this earlier on [...]

Don't usually see the need, but you could of probably used a TL;DR for this post.

I do think that isolation has become a big problem for many. Close communities are becoming less common, and those who are unable to find employment they often don't feel like they "belong" anywhere and lack even superficial company and communication. Young males is a group that has been hit hard by unemployment due to the collapse of the construction and related industries.

There is sites like meetup.com, and people living near colleges can often avail of club and societies.

orestes

Lyaiera wrote: »

I'm not going to quote your whole post or it would fill everyones screens, so picture your post here

While I agree that social clubs and exercise would be very good resources for communities and for people who want to socialise, I don't think it would really address the underlying problems of suicide or prevent depression.

A lot of people who suffer from depression are very socially active and seemingly happy, successful, popular people. They are usually the life and soul of the party and noone would ever guess they are depressed, laughing on the outside and crying on the inside to use the old analogy.

I think that your idea would help people while they are being treated for depression, and help them with recovery, but unless people are comfortable getting help in the first place unfortunately I don't think it would make much of a difference. People who are suffering would be able to put on the mask and go through the social club and sports routine the same way they do with other social situations and nobody would know there was anything going on with them. The first priority should be creating awareness and understanding of mental health issues and making people feel comfortable seeking help, and then when they are getting well to engage in social situations like the things you suggest when they are comfortable of doing so genuinely, kinda like an emotional halfway house which I actually think would be pretty damned cool

Lyaiera

orestes wrote: »

While I agree that social clubs and exercise would be very good resources for communities and for people who want to socialise, I don't think it would really address the underlying problems of suicide or prevent depression.

A lot of people who suffer from depression are very socially active and seemingly happy, successful, popular people. They are usually the life and soul of the party and noone would ever guess they are depressed, laughing on the outside and crying on the inside to use the old analogy.

I think that your idea would help people while they are being treated for depression, and help them with recovery, but unless people are comfortable getting help in the first place unfortunately I don't think it would make much of a difference. People who are suffering would be able to put on the mask and go through the social club and sports routine the same way they do with other social situations and nobody would know there was anything going on with them. The first priority should be creating awareness and understanding of mental health issues and making people feel comfortable seeking help, and then when they are getting well to engage in social situations like the things you suggest when they are comfortable of doing so genuinely, kinda like an emotional halfway house which I actually think would be pretty damned cool

I think that's part of the issue, and I genuinely think it's being done in a lot of areas. The awareness levels around depression have skyrocketed in the last ten years.

I probably didn't make the point well enough in my post, but I don't see investment in social facilities and health and sporting facilities as a means unto itself. Rather, like the Mens Sheds idea, it's an investment into communities and a better approach to a social involvement that allows people a space where they can unburden themselves in a setting where they feel comfortable. One of the principles of the Mens Shed idea is that supposedly "Men don't talk face to face, they talk shoulder to shoulder." As in the communication is done in relation to something else. They appear to be fixing an engine, when in reality it's about unloading their issues to a receptive person who they can bond with over the engine.

I do think there needs to be far less stigmatisation of mental health issues. However the idea that depression is purely a "chemical imbalance" has been abandoned for a good few years now. A much more holistic approach to mental health is recommended. And no matter how much therapy or time with a doctor a person gets, if they feel isolated and alone there is very little a therapist and doctor can do for them if there isn't a community to be part of to get through the other 167 hours.

But yes, I think there needs to be work done on all aspects of this. I think this sort of society building and support has benefits that go way beyond just the raw suicide numbers and towards a happier and healthier society. There are huge amounts of people who are deeply unhappy at the moment without any form of depression, they're justifiably unhappy. I think society needs to address the entirety of itself and not just the extreme cases.

orestes

Lyaiera wrote: »

I think that's part of the issue, and I genuinely think it's being done in a lot of areas. The awareness levels around depression have skyrocketed in the last ten years.

I probably didn't make the point well enough in my post, but I don't see investment in social facilities and health and sporting facilities as a means unto itself. Rather, like the Mens Sheds idea, it's an investment into communities and a better approach to a social involvement that allows people a space where they can unburden themselves in a setting where they feel comfortable. One of the principles of the Mens Shed idea is that supposedly "Men don't talk face to face, they talk shoulder to shoulder." As in the communication is done in relation to something else. They appear to be fixing an engine, when in reality it's about unloading their issues to a receptive person who they can bond with over the engine.

I do think there needs to be far less stigmatisation of mental health issues. However the idea that depression is purely a "chemical imbalance" has been abandoned for a good few years now. A much more holistic approach to mental health is recommended. And no matter how much therapy or time with a doctor a person gets, if they feel isolated and alone there is very little a therapist and doctor can do for them if there isn't a community to be part of to get through the other 167 hours.

But yes, I think there needs to be work done on all aspects of this. I think this sort of society building and support has benefits that go way beyond just the raw suicide numbers and towards a happier and healthier society. There are huge amounts of people who are deeply unhappy at the moment without any form of depression, they're justifiably unhappy. I think society needs to address the entirety of itself and not just the extreme cases.

While I agree that awareness of mental health issues in Ireland has moved forward in the last ten years, I definitely wouldn't say it has sky-rocketed. Guys sitting around and tinkering with engines or having a kick-about is fine for them to get stuff off their chests, but I honestly don't think it is suitable on it's own for the initial treatment of depression. Having stuff on your mind is not the same thing as suffering from a serious illness. The most successful treatment for depression, as shown by many many studies, is cognitive behavioural therapy and anti-depressants. As I said in my earlier post, I definitely think that the kind of thing you are talking about would be great, for people who are already being treated and in recovery.

Lyaiera

orestes wrote: »

While I agree that awareness of mental health issues in Ireland has moved forward in the last ten years, I definitely wouldn't say it has sky-rocketed. Guys sitting around and tinkering with engines or having a kick-about is fine for them to get stuff off their chests, but I honestly don't think it is suitable on it's own for the initial treatment of depression. Having stuff on your mind is not the same thing as suffering from a serious illness. The most successful treatment for depression, as shown by many many studies, is cognitive behavioural therapy and anti-depressants. As I said in my earlier post, I definitely think that the kind of thing you are talking about would be great, for people who are already being treated and in recovery.

I don't know where people have got the notion that people who kill themselves were suffering from depression. It may be technically correct with the new DSM which has pathologised many legitimate forms of sadness and sorrow but overall a lot of people who killed themselves could very well have been in desperate situations and not depressed at all.

Look at someone who is in their 60s, their wife has died, they live in rural area and all their kids have grown up and emigrated. Is that person "depressed?" Possibly. Do they have valid reasons for their depression? Absolutely. And no matter how many drugs you give someone or how much therapy (of which CBT is only the current method) they will always be in the situation where they're isolated and alone unless society changes. Similarly there's the person in their late forties with young kids who loses their semi-skilled, non-tech job. Where are they going to find another job? You can help someone be positive all you want but the reality is that they will find it extremely difficult to find a job anywhere near the same level they held previously.

What I'm trying to get across is that a lot of these problems aren't internal to a person. Even getting someone to readjust internally will not solve the problems a lot of people are facing.

Hersheys

I'm Irish. Female. Possibly young 26, do I fit in the young demographic?

Anyways, been suicidal previously, to an extent currently. Have no money so am reliant on the state services.

An urgent referral to a psychiatrist is 3 weeks AND COUNTING. Been on a waiting list for 3 months for counselling.

Due to mental health stigma my family don't know so I'm doing this alone. Reason I'm alone? The support services just are not there.

It's unfortunate.

Procasinator

orestes wrote: »

While I agree that awareness of mental health issues in Ireland has moved forward in the last ten years, I definitely wouldn't say it has sky-rocketed. Guys sitting around and tinkering with engines or having a kick-about is fine for them to get stuff off their chests, but I honestly don't think it is suitable on it's own for the initial treatment of depression. Having stuff on your mind is not the same thing as suffering from a serious illness. The most successful treatment for depression, as shown by many many studies, is cognitive behavioural therapy and anti-depressants. As I said in my earlier post, I definitely think that the kind of thing you are talking about would be great, for people who are already being treated and in recovery.

I think saying any one thing will fix the issue is an over simplification of depression and suicide. However, I think good communities can often help prevent severe depression itself, particularly when depression is rooted in social isolation.

Depression has increased in particular among young unemployed males in rural areas, and while correlation is not causation, these individuals in particular are vulnerable to isolation.

orestes

Lyaiera wrote: »

I don't know where people have got the notion that people who kill themselves were suffering from depression. It may be technically correct with the new DSM which has pathologised many legitimate forms of sadness and sorrow but overall a lot of people who killed themselves could very well have been in desperate situations and not depressed at all.

Look at someone who is in their 60s, their wife has died, they live in rural area and all their kids have grown up and emigrated. Is that person "depressed?" Possibly. Do they have valid reasons for their depression? Absolutely. And no matter how many drugs you give someone or how much therapy (of which CBT is only the current method) they will always be in the situation where they're isolated and alone unless society changes. Similarly there's the person in their late forties with young kids who loses their semi-skilled, non-tech job. Where are they going to find another job? You can help someone be positive all you want but the reality is that they will find it extremely difficult to find a job anywhere near the same level they held previously.

What I'm trying to get across is that a lot of these problems aren't internal to a person. Even getting someone to readjust internally will not solve the problems a lot of people are facing.

Pretty much everything you have said in the above post is contrary to established theory and practice in clinical psychology.

From the gist of this and your other posts in this thread I get the feeling you're trying to say clinical depression isn't a legitimate illness or should not be treated medically?

Procasinator wrote: »

I think saying any one thing will fix the issue is an over simplification of depression and suicide. However, I think good communities can often help prevent severe depression itself, particularly when depression is rooted in social isolation.

Depression has increased in particular among young unemployed males in rural areas, and while correlation is not causation, these individuals in particular are vulnerable to isolation.

I didn't say any one thing would fix the issue, of course it's not that simple. I said that awareness should be the initial priority so that people feel comfortable asking for help and that initial treatment should be cbt and anti-depressants. I did say that I think that the social club/community aspect was important and that I think it is a good idea, but I don't think it should be the initial point of treatment. Repeated studies have shown cbt and medication to be the most successful treatment, the social aspects come later as recovery progresses.

tempura

UCDVet wrote: »

In theory - I love it.
In practice - you'll get a fancy 'Chairman for something' or 'Director of Mental something else' who works 70% of the year while getting a 150k salary. His or her 'department' or 'organization' will have some million euro budget, most of which will be spent questionably at best. Nice offices, nice pay checks for well educated, qualified, business/politically minded folk to run things and look at charts and make the difficult decisions. At the very bottom of it all, you'd have the people providing the actual service....they'll be woefully underfunded and largely ineffective.

The director will then publish an annual report saying how under-reported suicide is and how it's a fast growing epidemic and push to interpret any questionable death as a suicide. Then they'll print charts showing a 'culture of suicide' and fight to 'raise awareness' (read - scare the crap out of parents). They'll publish stuff about cute kids and Mums who killed themselves and emphasize how it COULD HAPPEN TO YOUR FAMILY.

It'll be more about PR and generating revenue than actually helping anyone.

I would agree somewhat with the above. In my experience its a case of different services for those who have and those who have not.

If you have the means to access help in the form of counselling and a good doctor, your chances for making progress are fairly good. Im not belittling anyone who has a mental illness and has the money to spare to help themselves, its still as difficult to deal with but you have choices.


The side I have seen from someone who relies on the HSC for help is an entirely different thing. Yes, you get to see your GP, and maybe get meds prescribed, then you get referred to your local HSC funded health centre, where you get to see a counsellor. You come away from this with a little hope and your appointment to see them again in 4 weeks. You go back and hey presto, a different counsellor, and again the next time, and the next. No continuity. Anyone with an ounce of knowledge about mental illness should know that the relationship between a patient and their counsillor is important, you need to build up trust and familiarity , a good counsillor needs to learn about a person to be of any help. This practice just makes a person uneasy and skeptical which then only makes their condition worse.

The same goes for meds, they need to be followed up. Your doctor should tell you how they will make you feel initially, that they take a little time to work, that they are not a miracle cure. The two go hand in hand, good doctor, and good counselling. And of course, the third, good friends and family to support a person. Its not rocket science and in essence it not very difficult to achieve. But is all about money, the funding and the budgeting. Our current government do obviously not see a need to put more into this area as is apparent. Everyday of the week I hear about people who are not coping too well and seem to have no choices.


I feel a little at odds writing the above as I really don't want to put anyone off going this road. Its the only road there seems to be for most at the moment. So much more needs to be done.

pushkii

Pottler wrote: »

How about for a start, provide Govt funded, 24hr manned helplines like the Samaritans struggle to do? How about improve access to and availability of, primary care for sufferers of mental health issues? How about much, much more open and honest discussion of the subject? That might do for a start, if you give people a forum for their suggestions, I believe you will not be long about finding solutions. And how about actually providing realistic, solid funding for measures in this field? As opposed to lip service, poor service and no service?

This

fearcruach

It's a serious problem in Ireland, compounded by a shambolic mental health service and a serious ignorance of mental health by the general populace.

I attempted suicide twice in the last year. On paper everything in my life couldn't be better. I've been told before "sure what would you have to be depressed about?", "you need to try harder to be happier" and so on. I suffer from a particular disorder that massively predisposes me to suicidial ideation and has a 75% attempt rate amongst sufferers. Medication has a very limited role to play in its treatment.

There is a therapy which is the only treatment which has been shown to be effective but the only community mental health centre to offer it, is in Blackrock. The Mental Health Service is set up rigidly along geographical catchment areas and if you don't live in Blackrock or the surrounding areas then you don't get the service.

I'm lucky in that I got a referral to a private therapist who can do the therapy with me but it's expensive (€300 a month) which not a lot of people could afford (I have a decent job). If you can't afford it and didn't live in Blackrock then there are literally no options available to you.

When I tell people I attempted suicide the reaction ranges from a lot of uncomfortable shuffling to people telling me I'm selfish and to stop being dramatic. Attitudes in this country are still far behind a lot of countries.

Procasinator

orestes wrote: »

I didn't say any one thing would fix the issue, of course it's not that simple. I said that awareness should be the initial priority so that people feel comfortable asking for help and that initial treatment should be cbt and anti-depressants. I did say that I think that the social club/community aspect was important and that I think it is a good idea, but I don't think it should be the initial point of treatment. Repeated studies have shown cbt and medication to be the most successful treatment, the social aspects come later as recovery progresses.

To simplify (probably too much*), there is a before, during and after with depression. While of course funds and effort should be put into the during (i.e. depressed and potential suicidal people), there should also be a focus on what helps prevent initial depression (before) and reocurrence of depression (after). While you are focused on the during, a multi-facet approach is needed to help with the before and the after. If we tackle the before and the after, it will hopefully reduce the amount of people that enter into the during category.

Depression will always occur, but the fact that the suicide rate is increasing rather that staying constant means that some of the many causes and pressures of depression are more prevalent in the population today.

I believe that isolation, along with debt and other stresses common in the recession, are some of the leading reasons for the increase in suicidal rate among young males.

I understand your point, but I also didn't get the impression that Lyaiera was implying that social clubs could replace treatment of clinical depression. But rather, that social isolation from is a problem for many in modern Ireland and tackling that could help reduce the suicide rate. Of course, other activities could help to, like tacking alcohol and substance abuse, as suggested by the report.

* I say this as I realise that some conditions and diseases can't be put into a neat category of before, during and after, and that the causes of depression can be out of control such as schizophrenia, bipolar, e.t.c. I'm not trying to suggest that depression and suicide is caused by things like social isolation and substance abuse, but rather they can be a contributing factor in some cases.

Lyaiera

orestes wrote: »

Pretty much everything you have said in the above post is contrary to established theory and practice in clinical psychology.

From the gist of this and your other posts in this thread I get the feeling you're trying to say clinical depression isn't a legitimate illness or should not be treated medically?

You're not doing a very good job at understanding what other people are saying. I have been diagnosed with depression and medication helped me get my life in order.

You're going off the presumption that everyone has clinical depression and should be on anti-depressants and getting therapy. There are far more reasons for suicide than clinical depression.

I think the debate about suicide is a refusal to deal with large underlying issues. Suicide is a symptom of much bigger issues, stigma against mental health issues being one aspect and I am of the opinion that isolation in society is another. In fact stigma against mental health issues is a facet of the isolation endemic in society. People are isolated and feel they can't talk to anyone about their mental health. And this is one of the pressing issues of modern psychology and psychiatry with the leading practitioners advocating for a holistic community based approach.

What I'm saying isn't contrary to established theory and practice in clinical psychology, it's contrary to outdated theory and practice clinical psychology and psychiatry.

hedzball

My own mothers 2 year anniversary only sunday so it was.

49years of age and not a sign of it coming.

I don't do politics. I don't do stats.
I do get annoyed when I see pointless state spending. Pointless groups..

I was out of work at the time. Signed up to a free counseling service . They got back to me in 8months and 17 days.
I remember it exactly as I wrote an email stating to which.

I went away on my own and found a woman up the road. 50 quid an hour. It took away 60% of my problems. I still question why I am alone in my life now. I lost my best friend openly. I felt sorry for my brother 19 when it happened (I was 23) we have learned to adapt but my home is now my house. My father is doing well. I had plans to leave the country before it all happened.. Get away start elsewhere but kind of felt obliged to stay about really.


Im not unsure in my thoughts. Rather focussed person thank god. But I have one heavy heart for a long time now.






'hdz

the_syco

Timmyctc wrote: »

but our road deaths in the country for a long time were far far far too high

And of those numbers, how many happened on a straight road, where the single car veered off the road at high speed and hit the only big solid tree?

"eliminate some of the dangerous items they have access to"

Such as roads, railways, high places, rovers, etc?

Lyaiera

To go further, I think Procrastinator has an idea of what I'm saying and put it across very well.

Looking at suicide rates and looking at rates of depression is a case of looking at far too small a detail in an overall problem. It's a case of not being able to see the wood for the trees.

Yes, absolutely acute cases of depression and any mental illness should be treated with therapy and pharmacology. However there are broad societal issues that are causing problems. If you put hundreds of millions of Euros into dealing with every case of mental illness there is (including getting people to see their doctors in the first place) it wouldn't have an effect on people becoming depressed. They wouldn't be going to their doctors until they have an issue. The solution to the AIDs pandemic isn't finding a cure for aids, it's stopping people becoming infected in the first place. I would never say people should stop treating people with aids, just as I would never say people with mental health problems shouldn't be treated. I would never say that we should abandon the campaigns to get rid of the stigma of testing for STIs, just I would never say that we should abandon the campaigns to get rid of the stigma of seeking help for mental health issues. However just like there is massive efforts being targeted towards how people approach sexual relationships there should be just as much of an effort towards helping people to live mentally happy lives.

And one of the biggest problems in modern society is the alienation and isolation people are feeling as the world has changed and progressed. People are becoming increasingly unhealthy and unhappy and that's a societal issue that feeds into a whole lot of things mental health being one area. Treating mental health is definitely needed, but if we're to target the root cause of a huge amount of mental and physical health issues in society (and physical health hugely plays into mental health) then we need to start looking at broad approaches to problems people are experiencing as a society.

Procasinator

Although the idea of eliminating dangerous items sounds stupid on the surface, there is evidence to suggest that removing easy means often help in some cases.

Interesting article that discusses this somewhat:
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/06/magazine/06suicide-t.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

Of course, when one of the most common method is hanging, it is hard to do much in this regard. We can't really make a case of taking peoples ropes away.

The Irish Times goes into this a bit:
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2013/0123/1224329191088.html

orestes

Lyaiera wrote: »

To go further, I think Procrastinator has an idea of what I'm saying and put it across very well.

Looking at suicide rates and looking at rates of depression is a case of looking at far too small a detail in an overall problem. It's a case of not being able to see the wood for the trees.

Yes, absolutely acute cases of depression and any mental illness should be treated with therapy and pharmacology. However there are broad societal issues that are causing problems. If you put hundreds of millions of Euros into dealing with every case of mental illness there is (including getting people to see their doctors in the first place) it wouldn't have an effect on people becoming depressed. They wouldn't be going to their doctors until they have an issue. The solution to the AIDs pandemic isn't finding a cure for aids, it's stopping people becoming infected in the first place. I would never say people should stop treating people with aids, just as I would never say people with mental health problems shouldn't be treated. I would never say that we should abandon the campaigns to get rid of the stigma of testing for STIs, just I would never say that we should abandon the campaigns to get rid of the stigma of seeking help for mental health issues. However just like there is massive efforts being targeted towards how people approach sexual relationships there should be just as much of an effort towards helping people to live mentally happy lives.

And one of the biggest problems in modern society is the alienation and isolation people are feeling as the world has changed and progressed. People are becoming increasingly unhealthy and unhappy and that's a societal issue that feeds into a whole lot of things mental health being one area. Treating mental health is definitely needed, but if we're to target the root cause of a huge amount of mental and physical health issues in society (and physical health hugely plays into mental health) then we need to start looking at broad approaches to problems people are experiencing as a society.

Ok, now I get you, my apologies. I misinterpreted your posts, sorry. I misread it as some kind of no need for medical treatment just keep yourself active idea, that was my fault for not seeing the bigger picture of what you were saying, sorry again, and to you too Procastinator

Lyaiera

orestes wrote: »

Ok, now I get you, my apologies. I misinterpreted your posts, sorry. I misread it as some kind of no need for medical treatment just keep yourself active idea, that was my fault for not seeing the bigger picture of what you were saying, sorry again, and to you too Procastinator

No worries. It was a good conversation and helped me wrap my head around my own ideas too.

Every aspect of the mental health debate needs to be addressed. From patients being able to afford their medication all the way to people having the ability to have a fulfilling life. None of these issues are simple and I think it's great that a healthy discussion about them can be had in AH! :eek:

Endless Nameless

......why is everybody ITT blaming the Government?

Lightbulb Sun

Real Life wrote: »

What sort of thing are other countries doing thats different?
What can our government do to prevent it?

serious questions, im not defending the government in any way i just want to know what actually can be done.
I say this as someone who has what i would consider to be pretty bad depression so im not trying to brush the matter under the rug.

Germany or Holland, can't remember has a system at known black spots for suicide with cameras and alarms that alert nearby personnel in order to prevent deaths. Irish government has no original ideas, just steals other countries ideas or most likely doesn't bother its hole to do so. Also ironically you had half of AH a few days ago taking the piss out of Sinead O Connors opinion cos of her mental health condition.

Smidge

Very, very sad statistics indeed.
No matter which way you cut it that is a lot of lost lives.
You can say awareness has increased about mental health all you like.
Doesn't matter what awareness is raised if the "attitude" to suicide and mental health does not change among Irish society.

skyfall2012

Hersheys wrote: »

I'm Irish. Female. Possibly young 26, do I fit in the young demographic?

Anyways, been suicidal previously, to an extent currently. Have no money so am reliant on the state services.

An urgent referral to a psychiatrist is 3 weeks AND COUNTING. Been on a waiting list for 3 months for counselling.

Due to mental health stigma my family don't know so I'm doing this alone. Reason I'm alone? The support services just are not there.

It's unfortunate.

Hi Hershey, I don't think there is a stigma in Ireland anymore almost everybody has been touched by suicide. One of my inlaws and also a local person from my area died by suicide in the law few years. People are taking it very seriously.

I would say that you should talk to someone in your family, I would imagine they would want to be there for you, don't go it alone.

Bad Santa

Had a cousin who attempted suicide many times and was in and out of psychiatric hospitals for years and years and while they were are a support to him, they also hindered him as it turned out that he actually had a rare undiagnosed autoimmune para-thyroid disorder and is now running his own business and feels top of the world. Oddly enough, he got diagnosed in St Thomas's casualty in England. He was over attending a Premier League match and had severe panic attacks (as he was prone to) and when they ran certain tests that he never had done before (guess not all endocrinologists would do them as a matter of course) they discovered it.

Our health system is a joke though, as all the different treatment modalities are all in their little separate arenas and that's such a shame as I think there would far less chance of misdiagnosis if psychiatrists worked alongside endocrinologists and the like a lot more than they currently do. Dieticians also have a massive role to play when people are feeling low, be that for hormonal reasons or chemically imbalance ones.

Course, telling people to make sure they get second opinions in order to see if there might actually be a physical problem being missed, is of course much easier said than it is done, as people just don't have the money these days to be seeing numbers of specialists, be lucky if they have enough to see one but it is always advisable for anyone feeling ill (continually at least) to get as many opinions as they can, particularly if they feel in any way unhappy or uneasy about a diagnosis they have been given. Can do no harm and may just save your life.

I have no clue why more men seem to take their lives more than woman though. I don't think it's as simple as women talking about things more, there's more to it than that. Men see themselves as a failure when things go wrong for them, more than women do I feel. We're brought up with an idea of what a man should be and I think having a good job, being strong, confident and healthy is the cornerstone of all that, or at least it has tended to be in recent times. Anything then going wrong in these areas, particularity for a long time, and men's self esteem plummets and they start seeing themselves as less masculine, bordering on a complete failure.

Men's image of themselves, while perhaps exaggerated in their own mind when feeling low, is really stemming from what it is that society's image of them is, based on the reality of their circumstances. If society sees a single man with no job, no kids, no relationship etc as being worthless, then such men will inevitably see themselves that way and that's not to say that women don't suffer stigmas themselves, they do but I just don't think they are seen in as negative a light as men are, for whatever reason, but both men and women make up society and so perhaps the first step is to change our own attitude whenever we wish to change society's.

Cookie_Monster

part of the problem IMO is that the state now makes it so difficult to actually go and do things in clubs or groups and so forth. I was in scouts for 20+ but left due to all the bolloxogy that crept in, the huge insurance costs, the rules upon rules upon rules about what you could not longer do, the vetting and as a young male being treated like a criminal around kids in the eyes of the law and so forth.
When simple things like this are made more difficult you are inevitably going to decrease community involvement and increase isolation and encourage all the problems that lead down the road to suicide

Real Life

Lightbulb Sun wrote: »

Germany or Holland, can't remember has a system at known black spots for suicide with cameras and alarms that alert nearby personnel in order to prevent deaths. Irish government has no original ideas, just steals other countries ideas or most likely doesn't bother its hole to do so. Also ironically you had half of AH a few days ago taking the piss out of Sinead O Connors opinion cos of her mental health condition.

can you show me where this happened? i dont think it did