Professional rugby: how we saw it back then

Snickers Man

Was clearing out some old VCR tapes recently and came across this relic from about October 1995.

It is a panel discussion from Beeb northern Ireland concerning the future of the game of rugby which had just recently been opened to professionalism. A variety of opinions from the ultra conservative to the enthusiastically modern were presented.

Among those contributing were Willie John McBride, the late Jimmy Davidson, former Irish player and coach, the late Ken Reid, former IRFU president, then Irish Times rugby correspondent Ned Van Esbeck and sundry others.

It is fascinating to watch this with the hindsight of nearly 20 years and see how things turned out. You can see how nervous the clubs were that they would have to pay their players. More far sighted people rubbished this notion and pointed out that the professional game in Ireland would be based on the provinces.

Mind you, Mike Burton, a player's agent, clearly thought that the provinces would remain as representative bodies which Irish players would continue to play for while earning their bread playing club rugby in England. That's not the way it turned out.

And Ned Van Esbeck never sounded more crusty or curmudgeonly

Check out a young David Walsh, now more famous for his role in exposing Lance Armstrong, giving his views!

Enjoy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x5ORmKIpcyw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vxzP7WQyLko

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3udxm2WffY8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rOJz1gtIS8I

Podge_irl

Weren't the IRFU fairly opposed to professionalism?

P_1

Podge_irl wrote: »

Weren't the IRFU fairly opposed to professionalism?

I think so, Brendan Fanning#s book 'From there to here' gives a pretty decent summary of how they viewed it

Winters

Wow, what a find. Thanks for posting them up. I’ve always been fascinated by the advent of professionalism in rugby. I remember seeing the video of the announcement in Paris in 1995 of the IRB declaring Rugby 'open'.

If I recall, it was the French and the Aussies that were the strongest voices for professionalism. Scotland and Ireland were opposed and slow to grasp it.

I’ve read the Fanning book, are there any other good books that cover the move to professionalism that people would recommend?

Teferi

Yeah, that was absolutely fascinating. Just spent the last hour or so listening to it. I'd love to get them back in a room now and see what they would say.

bilston

Teferi wrote: »

Yeah, that was absolutely fascinating. Just spent the last hour or so listening to it. I'd love to get them back in a room now and see what they would say.

Unfortunately I think a few of those in the studio anyway are now dead. Certainly Jimmy Davidson and Ken Reid are. I haven't watched those clips yet but I believe what we have today was pretty much envisioned by Jimmy Davidson as far back as the 80s.

Snickers Man

Podge_irl wrote: »

Weren't the IRFU fairly opposed to professionalism?

I think Ken Reid's attitude shows just what the IRFU thought at the time "The IRFU didn't expect the announcement (of the game going professional) nor did they welcome it. Their statement said they ACCEPTED the changes but that's a long way from welcoming them"

To be fair, looking at what happened to Irish soccer, they had grounds to be worried that any attempts to introduce professional rugby here would be swamped by big money from England and France luring players away.

The anger of Jim McDowell, described here as a former player but who is/was also a Sunday World journalist, and the support for his views by Van Esbeck show the distaste many of the old guard of fans and players had for professionalism.

I was most impressed by the matter of fact optimism of the likes of Davidson, McBride, David Walsh, Trevor Ringland and referee Stephen Hilditch (who once sent off two French players in a match against England at Parc des Princes. Now there's a man with balls!!) They effectively said "What's happened has happened; let's get on with it"

So far the "modernisers" who got behind professionalism have been proved right. Irish rugby thrived in the first decade of professionalism, once they got the initial teething problems sorted after the first few years. It was helped by genuine support for the provincial teams and a generation of genuinely top-class players; O'Driscoll, Hickey, Wood, Murphy, O'Connell et al.

Also, the English game bit off more than it could chew at first. Thinking that rugby would be as lucrative as soccer and pricing themselves accordingly, many clubs got into severe financial difficulties and had to row back on their plans. The generation of early Irish professionals who moved over to England came back, for the most part and helped the provinces to thrive.

However, constant vigilance is needed if the Irish provinces are not to end up like Bohemians and Shamrock Rovers.

The French (especially) and English clubs seem to be getting their act together and are well placed to attract media-led investment. The sight of Johnny Sexton probably being lured to France by an offer the IRFU can't match is worrying.

The Celtic/Magners/Rabo league is in a precarious state. The Welsh and Scottish have never got behind their "franchises" the way Irish fans got behind their provinces. Many of the top Scottish and Welsh players have "gone east" where once the Welsh "went north".

Also, there is no guarantee that we will have a generation of players that can match the calibre of some of those whose careers have ended recently or will end soon. In fact the chances are we could go through a truly fallow period for a while. We will have to weather that storm, or rather those doldrums.

It is a vital Irish interest that the Rabo League grows in credibility especially among Welsh and Scottish fans. If it falls apart we will have no bread and butter league to feed into the European competitions. The French and English money hounds would love nothing better than to have their clubs as the employers of the best players from the Celtic Fringe.

Just think of the faith that the likes of Davidson and McBride showed in Irish rugby at a time when the national side was pretty awful. We will need courage like that again soon.

.ak

Snickers Man wrote: »

Also, there is no guarantee that we will have a generation of players that can match the calibre of some of those whose careers have ended recently or will end soon. In fact the chances are we could go through a truly fallow period for a while. We will have to weather that storm, or rather those doldrums.

I think this a point that rears its head once a draft of players retire, and for that very reason I have to disagree. Sure the 'golden generation' will retire, but those waiting are up to it and perhaps have the potential of being greater internationals.

We have professionalism to thank for that, where players can be learn their trade to a professional level rather than plucking wonder-BOD's out of schools level.

Snickers Man

.ak wrote: »

I think this a point that rears its head once a draft of players retire, and for that very reason I have to disagree. Sure the 'golden generation' will retire, but those waiting are up to it and perhaps have the potential of being greater internationals.

I do think, to paraphrase the Fabulous Furry Freak Brothers, that "structure will get you through times of no talent better than talent will get you through times of no structure"

But the presence of structure does not guarantee the existence of great talent; it merely increases the chances that such talent, if it exists, will be nurtured and developed.

As a genuine old fart who vaguely remembers watching games as far back as the 1960s I can tell you that talent comes in waves that ebb and flow.

Between April 1967 and January 1976, a period of nearly nine years, Ireland only lost one Five Nations match at home. That was to England in 1971 in a match which Ireland would have won with today's scoring values (10-9) as opposed to (6-9).

The only other team to win in Dublin in those years was New Zealand in 1974 and we also held them to a draw in 73, drew with South Africa in 1970 and beat Australia in 1968.

For much of the rest of the 1970s we were crap. We had another good few seasons in the early to mid 1980s winning the Triple Crown twice but then we had 10 -15 years of utter misery.

As a wise man once said, "In the long run, the womb wins the war". The only way you get really great talent is by breeding it.

So get to it.

JustinDee

Thanks for those clips. Great stuff.
Passing on to a colleague or two.

Always worth getting old VHS stuff on digital formats. Just recently we converted all the training videos from late 90s that aired on RTE. Interesting to compare then and now in all aspects.

On Shamrock Rovers, It was bought up by a private consortium who took it over then jumped ship when the paltry crowds became complacent not bothering to show up again in the numbers required. Only then were there protests.

19543261

I thoroughly enjoyed that, Snickers, your efforts are appreciated!

Snickers Man

JustinDee wrote: »

On Shamrock Rovers, It was bought up by a private consortium who took it over then jumped ship when the paltry crowds became complacent not bothering to show up again in the numbers required. Only then were there protests.

I have nothing but respect for people who give their time, energy and enthusiasm to supporting League of Ireland clubs. They are true fans.

But you cannot compare the status of Irish soccer clubs to that of Irish rugby teams. Irish provinces have won six European Rugby cups between them. So far. With Irish soccer clubs it's an achievement if they can get into the group stages of the Europa League there to become the whipping boys. Different prospect altogether.

My fear is that the Scottish and to a lesser extent Welsh rugby clubs are closer in status to Irish soccer clubs than Irish rugby clubs. And if they don't up their game soon, they will rot the Rabo League from within.

We can't rest on our laurels or old Ned Van Esbeck could yet be proved right.

Snickers Man

JustinDee wrote: »

Always worth getting old VHS stuff on digital formats. Just recently we converted all the training videos from late 90s that aired on RTE. Interesting to compare then and now in all aspects.

Ooh. Were they the ones where a leading international player in each position from the time gave a master class in the requirements of his trade? I remember that Ollie Campbell did the out half program, and Dave Loveridge and Murray Mexted (there's probably some young people who don't know he used to play!) of New Zealand did the Scrum Half/ No Eight bits.

Mind you, if it was the 90s it would have been too late for them.

durkadurka

It's like an historical artefact.
I was out of the country at the time so don't really remember it.
Jim Davison, looking quite a lot like Johnny giles, talking a lot of sense.

Ned van esbeck sounding like a dinosaur. I remember his miserable news reports in the times in the early 90's.

So much uncertainty but you have to say they got it pretty much right.

Still the clubs are suffering. I go to Mary's a few times a year and the average age of the supporters is about 50. Four or five hundred at a game ( Mary's are league champions by the way).

Swiwi

Yes, the whole professional thing is interesting. Virtually the whole AB team (including Sean Fitzpatrick) had signed for a rebel competition offering big bucks, and it was only the late Jock Hobbs + Josh Kronfeld & Jeff Wilson that saved the day.

Ever since, I have taken any comments Sean Fitzpatrick makes about respect for the AB jersey, tradition etc with a grain of salt

NB: That's Sean Fitzpatrick, ex-AB captain, not Seanie Fitz of Anglo-Irish fame. But I guess the 2 had a lust for money in common

CatFromHue

Swiwi wrote: »

Yes, the whole professional thing is interesting. Virtually the whole AB team (including Sean Fitzpatrick) had signed for a rebel competition offering big bucks, and it was only the late Jock Hobbs + Josh Kronfeld & Jeff Wilson that saved the day.

According to this documentary it was Francois Pienaar or Louis Luyt who saved the day.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SRGxhZGZmqg

Swiwi

CatFromHue wrote: »

According to this documentary it was Francois Pienaar or Louis Luyt who saved the day.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SRGxhZGZmqg

Interesting viewing. I can't speak for other countries, but Hobbs, by convincing Wilson & Kronfeld to stay with the NZRFU saved the (NZ) day.

I assume Louis Luyt offered the SAs gold watches to stay with the SARFU....

JustinDee

Swiwi wrote: »

Yes, the whole professional thing is interesting. Virtually the whole AB team (including Sean Fitzpatrick) had signed for a rebel competition offering big bucks, and it was only the late Jock Hobbs + Josh Kronfeld & Jeff Wilson that saved the day.

Ever since, I have taken any comments Sean Fitzpatrick makes about respect for the AB jersey, tradition etc with a grain of salt

Rugby union would have lost a devestating amount of players to rugby league be that with Packer or Murdoch. No country's players were out of scope. Every nation was potentially to lose out.
The quote about the only difference being payments made above board as opposed to beneath the counter is very apt. Most internationals particularly in the three main Southern Hemisphere countries and France were receiving payment. Even in Italy, players were being paid. Certain clubs in Sydney and Brisbane were offering money to players in Ireland. No morality or honour there. I know rugby union players who were castigated and ostracised for playing rugby league. Even for taking trials or visiting a particular club. I know even better league players who were banned from ever playing a game, even a testimonial at a club. Pure hypocrisy. "Shamateurism".

Rugby union was saved back then. Thankfully and I'm very proud of how its gone in Ireland since.

Swiwi

JustinDee wrote: »

Rugby union would have lost a devestating amount of players to rugby league be that with Packer or Murdoch. No country's players were out of scope. Every nation was potentially to lose out.
The quote about the only difference being payments made above board as opposed to beneath the counter is very apt. Most internationals particularly in the three main Southern Hemisphere countries and France were receiving payment. Even in Italy, players were being paid. Certain clubs in Sydney and Brisbane were offering money to players in Ireland. No morality or honour there. I know rugby union players who were castigated and ostracised for playing rugby league. Even for taking trials or visiting a particular club. I know even better league players who were banned from ever playing a game, even a testimonial at a club. Pure hypocrisy. "Shamateurism".

Rugby union was saved back then. Thankfully and I'm very proud of how its gone in Ireland since.

Agree entirely. The WRC was purely about money. At least the unions have tradition. And every day I'm grateful the NZRFU signed all the players centrally, and didn't follow the English model where the clubs rule supreme.

JustinDee

Swiwi wrote: »

Agree entirely. The WRC was purely about money. At least the unions have tradition. And every day I'm grateful the NZRFU signed all the players centrally, and didn't follow the English model where the clubs rule supreme.

My point also is that money was always involved.

JustinDee

Snickers Man wrote: »

Ooh. Were they the ones where a leading international player in each position from the time gave a master class in the requirements of his trade? I remember that Ollie Campbell did the out half program, and Dave Loveridge and Murray Mexted (there's probably some young people who don't know he used to play!) of New Zealand did the Scrum Half/ No Eight bits

They're the ones. A few colleagues of mine are coaching or playing in them. The puffy tracksuits especially entertained me.

thomond2006

Even Neil Francis got a "contract" with Manly...

JustinDee

thomond2006 wrote: »

Even Neil Francis got a "contract" with Manly...

In those days, players of Franno's size/height were gold dust. There was no (legal) lifting in lineouts so somebody like him was an asset.

durkadurka

Franno had a good job in a bank and was near the end of his rugby career.
Why would he give up a job for something he was only good for about twenty minutes or so per game?

fanki na pengin

This is probably de-railing the thread a little, but I'd love to hear people's opinions on it.

Mentioned above was the 'rotting' of the Rabo because of a mass exodus from the welsh franchises, the Scottish being....well....not so great and both countries suffering from poor support.

If - and I stress IF - the Rabo were to fall apart, what would you like to see the provinces attempt?

Personally, I'd obviously like to see this being avoided with better organisational skills/marketing from the other countries.

I ask because I had a dream the other night a about a super 'cross-channel' league involving the beat teams from England France and Ireland. Ospreys may have been there, but Lee Byrne was playing fullback so it may have been Clermont. :pac:

sleepyman

fanki na pengin wrote: »

This is probably de-railing the thread a little, but I'd love to hear people's opinions on it.

Mentioned above was the 'rotting' of the Rabo because of a mass exodus from the welsh franchises, the Scottish being....well....not so great and both countries suffering from poor support.

If - and I stress IF - the Rabo were to fall apart, what would you like to see the provinces attempt?

Personally, I'd obviously like to see this being avoided with better organisational skills/marketing from the other countries.

I ask because I had a dream the other night a about a super 'cross-channel' league involving the beat teams from England France and Ireland. Ospreys may have been there, but Lee Byrne was playing fullback so it may have been Clermont. :pac:

I do worry about the sustainability of the game in Scotland and to a lesser extent in Wales.The regionalisation of the game and the creation of the franchises seems to have lost alot of supporters of the original clubs(brigand,Llanelli etc).
I can remember the Scarlets having a great run to the semis in 2002(denied by a late Tim Stimpson penalty I think)&2007.
The support base in Scotland is in the border region yet the two teams are located in football mad cities.
Personally If the rabo went south I wouldn't mind the provinces joining the aviva.I think it would be great to see the likes of Leicester,Quins,Northampton in visiting Thomond,RDS every week.
Would never happen as the IRFU would be denied of valuable Heineken Cup revenue potentially.
The powerbrokers,administrators in Wales & Scotland need to up their games and execute some sort of plan that can ensure the long term viability of professional rugby .

Winters

sleepyman wrote: »

I do worry about the sustainability of the game in Scotland and to a lesser extent in Wales.The regionalisation of the game and the creation of the franchises seems to have lost alot of supporters of the original clubs(brigand,Llanelli etc).

To be fair there are no 'franchises' in Scotland and I wouldn't really classify any of the Welsh Regions as franchises. The NZRFU us the franchise model for their Super Rugby teams but I think that might be the only example.

I would have quite a bit of respect for the Scottish set up. They, like the Welsh, took the brave decision to form professional districts rather than allowing their clubs to attempt at going professional.

Ambitiously they tried four districts and reduced to two after cost cutting measures. They also brought back the Borders after a lot of demand but had to dissolve them as their attendances were not sustainable.

Fair play to them too, they tried the franchise model (as used in NZ) for Edinburgh with the Carruther brothers but it didn’t work out.

They now own and operate their two professional districts and have central contracts. It’s obvious that Scotland can only sustain two teams and I think they are making their model work well.

Glasgow now have a base they can call their home and one of the last remaining items in the jigsaw would be finding a more suitable ground for Edinburgh. There is talk of a small stadium on the back pitches of Murrayfield but SRU aren’t flush with cash at the moment.

Attendance increases, Edinburgh's HEC run last year and Glasgow being competitive in the league for the past few years give signs for being optimistic.

As always though, International rugby funds the game and Scotland need to regain competitiveness in the 6 Nations.

CatFromHue

If the Rabo goes South it'll be the Welsh who would join up with the English, not us. They already play the LV Cup (Anglo Welsh Cup) and logistically it would be much easier for teams as they could drive there.

desertcircus

If Wales and Scotland do end up with a collapsed club game, I'd hope someone in the IRFU had contingency plans for either negotiating membership of the Aviva or Top14, or having a long talk with the South Africans about setting up a North/South league. 50% of the TV money for a league that's always on at the right time should present a tempting offer.

Losty Dublin

durkadurka wrote: »

Why would he give up a job for something he was only good for about twenty minutes or so per game?

Don't you mean his career, not game?

Snickers Man

durkadurka wrote: »

Ned van esbeck sounding like a dinosaur. I remember his miserable news reports in the times in the early 90's.

To be fair to Old Ned, the news WAS fairly miserable in the early 90s. Ireland's Five Nations record between 1990 and 1995: P 24 W 5 D 2 L 17.

And it's not like we beat any Southern Hemisphere teams in that period either. There's not much you could do to sex up a record like that. Even Alistair Campbell would struggle

Digifriendly

Snickers Man wrote: »

To be fair to Old Ned, the news WAS fairly miserable in the early 90s. Ireland's Five Nations record between 1990 and 1995: P 24 W 5 D 2 L 17.

And it's not like we beat any Southern Hemisphere teams in that period either. There's not much you could do to sex up a record like that. Even Alistair Campbell would struggle

Yes it wasn't that great just after professionalism either when NZ put 63 points on us in Lansdowne Road (1997) and Samoa won there also (1996) and Italy (1997).

Digifriendly

Winters wrote: »

I would have quite a bit of respect for the Scottish set up. They, like the Welsh, took the brave decision to form professional districts rather than allowing their clubs to attempt at going professional.

Ambitiously they tried four districts and reduced to two after cost cutting measures. They also brought back the Borders after a lot of demand but had to dissolve them as their attendances were not sustainable.

Fair play to them too, they tried the franchise model (as used in NZ) for Edinburgh with the Carruther brothers but it didn’t work out.

They now own and operate their two professional districts and have central contracts. It’s obvious that Scotland can only sustain two teams and I think they are making their model work well.

Glasgow now have a base they can call their home and one of the last remaining items in the jigsaw would be finding a more suitable ground for Edinburgh. There is talk of a small stadium on the back pitches of Murrayfield but SRU aren’t flush with cash at the moment.

Attendance increases, Edinburgh's HEC run last year and Glasgow being competitive in the league for the past few years give signs for being optimistic.

As always though, International rugby funds the game and Scotland need to regain competitiveness in the 6 Nations.

I don't fully share your optimistic take on Scottish rugby but I guess it depends on which way you look at it. Edinburgh conceded a bucketful of points in this year's HEC while Glasgow won 1 game. While Glasgow are going well in the Rabo, Edinburgh are struggling. Glasgow's attendances have increased with a new home but what about Edinburgh's?

Swiwi

Winters wrote: »

To be fair there are no 'franchises' in Scotland and I wouldn't really classify any of the Welsh Regions as franchises. The NZRFU us the franchise model for their Super Rugby teams but I think that might be the only example.

I would have quite a bit of respect for the Scottish set up. They, like the Welsh, took the brave decision to form professional districts rather than allowing their clubs to attempt at going professional.

Ambitiously they tried four districts and reduced to two after cost cutting measures. They also brought back the Borders after a lot of demand but had to dissolve them as their attendances were not sustainable.

Fair play to them too, they tried the franchise model (as used in NZ) for Edinburgh with the Carruther brothers but it didn’t work out.

They now own and operate their two professional districts and have central contracts. It’s obvious that Scotland can only sustain two teams and I think they are making their model work well.

Glasgow now have a base they can call their home and one of the last remaining items in the jigsaw would be finding a more suitable ground for Edinburgh. There is talk of a small stadium on the back pitches of Murrayfield but SRU aren’t flush with cash at the moment.

Attendance increases, Edinburgh's HEC run last year and Glasgow being competitive in the league for the past few years give signs for being optimistic.

As always though, International rugby funds the game and Scotland need to regain competitiveness in the 6 Nations.

The franchise model in NZ has had its issues. Initially, North Harbour was placed with the Chiefs. This would be a bit like sticking parts of North Co Dublin in Connacht.

As well, you used to have to play NPC in one of the franchise unions to qualify for the relevant S15 team, and this meant the best players tended to leave the smaller unions for the main cities. Now the contracting for NPC is entirely separate to S15, so that Israel Dagg can still play NPC for Hawke's Bay and S15 for the Crusaders etc.

But all players are contracted thru the NZRFU, which means the Crusaders cant show the middle finger to the NZRFU when it comes to releasing players for test matches etc.