Johnstown Kennedy House, Rathcoole

telekon

More commonly known as Major Yates' residence in the 'Irish RM', I was stunned to read that it was demolished soon after the series finished.

How the hell was this allowed happen??!? It was a beautiful early 18th century building that looked in fine repair in the TV show. (I believe some of the interior shots were also within Johnstown) It's something you would expect to be carried out by the land commission in the 1950s. However this was obviously allowed to happen by the then Dublin County Council as late as the late 1980s. :mad::mad:

I've read that the Beech Park golf club purchased the estate in 1982/3 and I found an Irish Times article from July 1988 that the future of the house was under threat (unfortunately I could not read the article as I am no longer a subscriber).

Could someone please enlighten me to why it was demolished?

Fratton Fred

telekon wrote: »

More commonly known as Major Yates' residence in the 'Irish RM', I was stunned to read that it was demolished soon after the series finished.

How the hell was this allowed happen??!? It was a beautiful early 18th century building that looked in fine repair in the TV show. (I believe some of the interior shots were also within Johnstown) It's something you would expect to be carried out by the land commission in the 1950s. However this was obviously allowed to happen by the then Dublin County Council as late as the late 1980s. :mad::mad:

I've read that the Beech Park golf club purchased the estate in 1982/3 and I found an Irish Times article from July 1988 that the future of the house was under threat (unfortunately I could not read the article as I am no longer a subscriber).

Could someone please enlighten me to why it was demolished?

unfortunately it wasn't alone. the power of money being far more important than preserving history http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frescati_House#The_struggle_to_preserve_Frescati

telekon

For anyone that's interested, I subscribed to the IT archives again especially to find out what happened.

In a nutshell, the owners, a Mr Denis and Fiona Hewitt Murphy of Clondalkin, applied to Dublin County Council for outline permission for its demolition in July 1988.

Since Dublin County Council had failed to add Johnstown House to the Record of protected Structures (:eek::mad:), there was no legal protection afforded to its preservation.

It was reported that there was extensive dry rot and the previous owner planned to restore it but the costs were prohibitive. They sold it on to the cretins mentioned above that immediately applied for permission to demolish "the last substantial Georgian house which remains in South-west Co. Dublin." :mad:

I couldn't find out exactly when it was demolished but I presume it must have been shortly after approval so 1988/89. It mentioned that conservationists wanted to save 3 rococo style plaster ceilings, I wonder did they succeed in doing so?

pedroeibar1

telekon wrote: »

For anyone that's interested, I subscribed to the IT archives again especially to find out what happened.

In a nutshell, the owners, a Mr Denis and Fiona Hewitt Murphy of Clondalkin, applied to Dublin County Council for outline permission for its demolition in July 1988.

Since Dublin County Council had failed to add Johnstown House to the Record of protected Structures (:eek::mad:), there was no legal protection afforded to its preservation.

It was reported that there was extensive dry rot and the previous owner planned to restore it but the costs were prohibitive. They sold it on to the cretins mentioned above that immediately applied for permission to demolish "the last substantial Georgian house which remains in South-west Co. Dublin." :mad:

I couldn't find out exactly when it was demolished but I presume it must have been shortly after approval so 1988/89. It mentioned that conservationists wanted to save 3 rococo style plaster ceilings, I wonder did they succeed in doing so?

What is your agenda here?
Why be so pejoratively abusive about two people who bought and demolished a house because “there was extensive dry rot and the previous owner planned to restore it but the costs were prohibitive”
Have you even the remotest idea on what it costs to renovate or even maintain an old house, or, worse, a listed property?
Do you know that right now there is no insurer in Ireland that will insure a listed property? So you have to go to the UK market where the insurers will insist on calculating reinstatement building costs at €4,000 per sqm, (compared to about €1,000 per sqm for a regular house. If you have a mortgage the bank insists on insurance so you are over a barrel. So you sit and freeze your a$$ off because your maintenance bills are so high that on the occasional times you turn the heating on it is so low it just about stops the water in the jakes from freezing. And if you go away for more than a week you have to drain the entire water system or you are not covered against a burst pipe. And that is only one policy condition.


If you feel so strongly about saving old buildings why don’t you stop writing $hite and put your money where your mouth is and do something about it? Like buying one and trying to maintain it – there are lots available at the moment, just look at any estate agent’s site or Nama. Or if you cannot do that why not lobby to exempt listed buildings from property tax or to provide decent grants to renovate (what is currently available is not worth the effort)


Rant over.

telekon

If you're finished your "rant" and bothered to read the OP, you would find that the main focus of the thread was on how was this allowed to happen by the powers that be? In this case, the old Dublin County Council.

The building wasn't even on the RPS which is a bloody joke. And I stick by my opinion that people who decide to purchase buildings of national architectural importance just to knock them down for a quick buck are absolute bastards of the highest order. No respect whatsoever for the country's built heritage and yes, they should be utterly ashamed of themselves. If it was left to rot, at least it would have left a beautiful ruin.

That's my rant over.

telekon

By the way, I live in a listed property and have insurance with the AIB so Im not sure where you got that information that people have to go to the UK to get it?

pedroeibar1

telekon wrote: »

If you're finished your "rant" and bothered to read the OP, you would find that the main focus of the thread was on how was this allowed to happen by the powers that be? In this case, the old Dublin County Council.

The building wasn't even on the RPS which is a bloody joke. And I stick by my opinion that people who decide to purchase buildings of national architectural importance just to knock them down for a quick buck are absolute bastards of the highest order. No respect whatsoever for the country's built heritage and yes, they should be utterly ashamed of themselves. If it was left to rot, at least it would have left a beautiful ruin.

That's my rant over.

I did read the OP and found your comments both offensive and unrealistic. Nor is there a date on the photo you used– it certainly is not from the era the house was demolished, so it is totally misleading. The house gets a couple of lines mention in Bence-Jones’ book, no photo and is described simply as ‘a plain three-storey house’. Were it ’left to rot’ as you suggest it would create a serious liability for its owners, as there are many people out there who would be happy to sue for damage from fallen masonry, etc. Most people cannot afford to be in the business of populating the countryside with picturesque ruins for the enjoyment of others.

You described the owners as ‘cretins’ but that choice of term does little for your post or your argument. How do you know that they decided ‘ to purchase buildings of national architectural importance just to knock them down for a quick buck ‘ ??
I have little time for most developers and am not a defender of county councils – I would merge or abolish most of them – they are bloated bureaucracies that achieve little other than pay themselves fat salaries. (Dun Laoghaire Rathdown is a typical example; they are slowly killing that town through aggressive parking wardens, high commercial rates and no facilities. Go look at it.)

I am in favour of preserving ‘heritage’ buildings when it is right and feasible to do so. That has to have a measure of realism built into it. We cannot preserve everything just because somebody decides it is ‘heritage.’ A time comes to a house, just like a family pet, when the kindest thing is to put it down. Nobody likes doing that but it has to be done and accepted.

With regard to your claim to be a listed home-owner, it adds nothing to the debate as you hide behind anonymity.Taking your comments on insurance, for starters, AIB is a bank and not an insurance company so it is not insuring your home. It is ‘an intermediary’ and if you look at your policy it will tell you that the insurer is AXA. If you did not declare that your home is a protected structure (PS) you do not have insurance cover. FWIW, Axa does not insure PSs. I know, because I do own one and have painful experience and knowledge of what is involved in obtaining home insurance and its cost. RSA in Ireland will under duress provide insurance for a PS, but only if it is mortgaged to and proposed by an existing group scheme – e.g. via Bank of Ireland Mortgages as an intermediary.

I repeat my suggestion in my earlier post - if you really care about protected structures start (or join) a lobby group to exempt listed buildings from property tax, or allow tax offset on insurance or to provide decent grants to restore heritage buildings. It is easy to write complaining about heritage destruction, it is quite something else do something about it.

telekon

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

I did read the OP and found your comments both offensive and unrealistic.

Good for you but I still mean every word. I hold them with the same contempt as they do for our built heritage.

Nor is there a date on the photo you used– it certainly is not from the era the house was demolished, so it is totally misleading.

Check out any episode of the Irish RM (all available on YouTube) which I ALSO MENTIONED IN THE OP, particularly the many interior scenes, and make up your mind then before launching into another tirade.

With regard to your claim to be a listed home-owner, it adds nothing to the debate as you hide behind anonymity.

My claim? I have previously posted to being a listed property owner on these forums so I’m sorry to disappoint you. For example, I previously enquired here over a year ago about reinstating sash windows in my house as it was unfortunately ruined with god awful PVC versions years ago.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=76573367

Now, why would I post something like that unless I lived in a listed building?

I repeat my suggestion in my earlier post - if you really care about protected structures start (or join) a lobby group to exempt listed buildings from property tax, or allow tax offset on insurance or to provide decent grants to restore heritage buildings. It is easy to write complaining about heritage destruction, it is quite something else do something about it.

You've changed your tune since I stated I was in fact a listed property owner. :rolleyes:

No, what you said earlier was:

If you feel so strongly about saving old buildings why don’t you stop writing $hite and put your money where your mouth is and do something about it? Like buying one and trying to maintain it – there are lots available at the moment, just look at any estate agent’s site or Nama. Or if you cannot do that why not lobby to exempt listed buildings from property tax or to provide decent grants to renovate.

I already did this, thanks.

Is this argument no longer valid as I have already done so?

You’ll be delighted to hear that the roof was immediately repaired when we purchased the property, thereby making it watertight and maintaining the house for the future. I also reinstated the shutters which were dumped in the garage by the previous owners when they installed the PVC windows.

And as stated earlier, I am still planning on reinstating sash windows.

majoryeates

It’s a pity the old place was knocked it had a lot of character and a fine setting. Unfortunately the cost of repairing and maintaining these old houses can be prohibitive and it’s not possible to save them all. I don’t agree however that it was an unremarkable building in fact I am of the opinion that it was a rather attractive house.

There appears to be a new house constructed on the exact spot the old house stood but I can’t be sure does anyone have any further background information on the property leading up to the demolition and thereafter?

Taralahm

For those interested in facts it's time to put this to bed.
An Taisce did a detailed report of the JK house where they declared nothing of architectural or historical value. After years of neglect by previous owners the house had been subject to vandalism and only remained as a facade. Dry rot effected every timber from roof joists to floor boards and the building was listed as a dangerous structure.
Many wealthy potential buyers viewed the property and they all ran away as it could not be saved.
The house was build in 1788 and the producers of the Irish RM did a wonderful job with special effects.
Before demolition, the Murphy's donated the remains of ceiling plaster work by the Roco bros to government historical architect, Arthur gibney. these can be seen in the Dr Stephens hospital today.
The porch is now the main entrance to city west hotel off the Naas road and anything else that could be saved was given to Mr. Mansfield RIP. for the restoration of his home, Teach Saggart house.
The ruins of the JK house went to a good cause, the restoration of an old house that could be saved.

Taralahm

Dear Mr Ranter,
You are obviously not local because if you were you would know the Murphy's still live in the house 27 years on.

jonniebgood1

Taralahm wrote: »

Dear Mr Ranter,
You are obviously not local because if you were you would know the Murphy's still live in the house 27 years on.

Your previous post was sufficient.
Moderator

majoryeates

Taralahm what you say makes sense, one thing I did notice from the Irish RM is that when scenes where shot in JK House where mirrors where present the ceilings often appeared dark stained or damp looking through them which would fit in with what you say. Are the grounds strictly private or is it possible to get onto the site to look at the old stable yards associated with the house?

arachne

Taralahm's post is factually wrong in many places - it's true that a Rococo ceiling from Johnstown Kennedy House was salvaged (and was installed by Arthur Gibney in the hall of the north entrance of Dr Steevens' Hospital, beside Heuston Station). The very fact that such a ceiling existed in such good condition contradicts the claim that the building remained 'only as a facade', and at least casts doubt on any claim that it could have been riddled with dry rot 'from the roof joists to the floorboards'. I spoke with a figure from An Taisce about Johnstown Kennedy House - he flatly dismissed the idea that the house was riddled with dry rot. He also poured scorn on the idea that nothing in the house was of architectural or historic value. To pedroeibar1 I say it's perfectly reasonable to say, that if someone has no interest in maintaining a building or historical or architectural merit, then don't buy it and don't destroy it. I also live in a listed building - the problems in maintaining them depend a lot on their size and their condition but it's not as much of a burden as is often made out. It's a very common tactic for someone who wants to get rid of an old building to say that it's riddled with dry rot - the Presbyterian church made this claim about the Church they wanted to (and did) demolish on Tritonville Road in Sandymount in 1999 - it was independently surveyed and found to be in excellent condition. I have a picture of the ceiling but can't post it because of spam rules boards.ie has for members with less than 25 posts

pedroeibar1

arachne wrote: »

Taralahm's post is factually wrong in many places - it's true that a Rococo ceiling from Johnstown Kennedy House was salvaged (and was installed by Arthur Gibney in the hall of the north entrance of Dr Steevens' Hospital, beside Heuston Station). The very fact that such a ceiling existed in such good condition contradicts the claim that the building remained 'only as a facade', and at least casts doubt on any claim that it could have been riddled with dry rot 'from the roof joists to the floorboards'. I spoke with a figure from An Taisce about Johnstown Kennedy House - he flatly dismissed the idea that the house was riddled with dry rot. He also poured scorn on the idea that nothing in the house was of architectural or historic value. To pedroeibar1 I say it's perfectly reasonable to say, that if someone has no interest in maintaining a building or historical or architectural merit, then don't buy it and don't destroy it. I also live in a listed building - the problems in maintaining them depend a lot on their size and their condition but it's not as much of a burden as is often made out. It's a very common tactic for someone who wants to get rid of an old building to say that it's riddled with dry rot - the Presbyterian church made this claim about the Church they wanted to (and did) demolish on Tritonville Road in Sandymount in 1999 - it was independently surveyed and found to be in excellent condition. I have a picture of the ceiling but can't post it because of spam rules boards.ie has for members with less than 25 posts

It would be nice to see the ceiling photo, why not email it to a Mod who surely would oblige by posting it for you? Then we can judge….. But a “quote” from an unnamed Taisce person is useless without source references – Why not post the extract from their report? Why the dig at what the the poor old Presbyterians did nearly 20 years ago? Again, where is your source? Why resurrect a thread from more than a year ago and add nothing of substance?

If you had bothered to read my earlier posts instead of selectively picking a phrase out of one of them you would see that I support conservation but I am a realist and not a dreamer. The final straw is for you to have praised Arthur, to be commended for saving said above-mentioned ceiling. Does that exonerate what he and Sam did to 16 Georgian buildings demolished to make way for the ESB HQ excrescence and the breaking up one of the foremost Georgian streetscapes in these islands? Or that he was behind the demolition of five interesting Victorian houses to facilitate Fitzwilliam Lawn Tennis Club. Oh, and don’t forget his role in the first stage of the Civic Offices. Or the CBI building on Dame St. Or their redbrick pillbox offices on Bride Street.

Their old friends in FF, politicos like Blayney & CJH & Ray Burke and Liamy Lawlor facilitated both them and their developers, Blayney when-Minister for Local Government signing an order granting full planning permission for the ESB offices THE DAY BEFORE a new Planning Act came into effect thereby nailing the fate of Georgian Dublin. I will leave you with an earlier post -

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

I am in favour of preserving ‘heritage’ buildings when it is right and feasible to do so. That has to have a measure of realism built into it. We cannot preserve everything just because somebody decides it is ‘heritage.’ A time comes to a house, just like a family pet, when the kindest thing is to put it down. Nobody likes doing that but it has to be done and accepted.……………I repeat my suggestion in my earlier post - if you really care about protected structures start (or join) a lobby group to exempt listed buildings from property tax, or allow tax offset on insurance or to provide decent grants to restore heritage buildings. It is easy to write complaining about heritage destruction, it is quite something else do something about it.

arachne

Pedroeibar1, does it make sense to tell me off for 'having a go' at the Presbyterians for something that happened nearly twenty years ago, and at the same time berate me for failing to mention Arthur Gibney's crimes of the 1960s? (I'm well aware of both his and Sam Stephenson's repertoire - which both later repudiated.)
Does it make sense to demand extracts of a report from me and not from Tarasahlm? The Presbyterian church controversy is a matter of the record and available from the irish times archive. I'm certain that this is a case of proposed destruction on grounds of supposed poor condition - and unusual in that the conservation lobby were permitted, and availed of, an opportunity to survey the building. - and that this showed none of the alleged defects. I never said that there was a 'report' on Johnstown Kennedy House - Tarasahlm did. I said that an acquaintance from An Taisce familiar with the case did not think the dry rot claims had any basis, and I explained why the dry rot claims should be treated with the utmost scepticism. I might add to those that 3 years before the proposals to demolish it, it was the focus of a major TV series produced by our national broadcaster jointly with Channel 4, who surely would not have endangered cast and crew for three consecutive years in a house so riddled with dry rot that it was shortly to be condemned as unsafe. I don't see where you take issue with the ridiculous claim that the house was in ruins to the degree that only a facade remained.
I would be delighted to send a photo of the ceiling to anyone who wants it and provides with their email.
Anyone not prepared to maintain or repair a historic building of architectural merit shouldn't buy one. I haven't heard any good rebuttal of that argument.
As for your challenge to take action in the cause of conservation, I've been active since the age of 13.

arachne

Interesting that you singled out the ESB saga as the demolished terrace did actually have some dry rot - not an excuse to pull it all down as this can be fixed, and the disrepair excuse is free rein to cowboys destroy anything and everything they want. There was some dry rot in my parents house when I was 10. It was the result of a poorly designed flat roof on an extension. Funnily enough, we were not all evacuated as our family home was razed to the ground on safety grounds - it was fixed with less disruption than you'd cause laying tiles on a bathroom floor

Jesus.

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

Ray Burke

They were allowed demolish Turvey House in Burke's home village back in 1987.

He did however manage to purchase Newbridge house for the State in the same area a year earlier. I wonder was there a connection between the two? Save one if we can let the other go?

pedroeibar1

It’s acceptable to look for source material when claims on specific events are made – I was not in the country from the late ‘80’s to the noughties and obviously have gaps. As for dry rot, sadly I am all too aware of it and how rapidly it spreads – and the spores are not visible and will come back to haunt you. Eamonn Markey made a lot out of me back in the day.

arachne wrote: »

Anyone not prepared to maintain or repair a historic building of architectural merit shouldn't buy one. I haven't heard any good rebuttal of that argument.

I agree, and would not repudiate that. However, as anyone who owned/owns a historic building can vouch, what is visible on the surface is one thing and what lies beneath is another, and what can happen very quickly can be an eye-opener. Back to my family pet analogy.

The real issue with old buildings is cost. We in Ireland should have a proper classification system, with financial support for the preservation of key buildings and a realistic approach to heritage preservation. Sadly it is not a priority, and the peasant-culture thinking in Ireland is “Why should we help rich b@st@rds preserve their fancy West Brit Landlord houses!” Which sadly was the view of many politicians on the destruction associated with building the ESB HQ.

arachne wrote: »

.......Arthur Gibney's crimes of the 1960s? (I'm well aware of both his and Sam Stephenson's repertoire - which both later repudiated.)

I never heard Sam or Arthur repudiate their work, ever.

Jesus.

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

What is your agenda here?
Why be so pejoratively abusive about two people who bought and demolished a house because “there was extensive dry rot and the previous owner planned to restore it but the costs were prohibitive”
Have you even the remotest idea on what it costs to renovate or even maintain an old house, or, worse, a listed property?
Do you know that right now there is no insurer in Ireland that will insure a listed property? So you have to go to the UK market where the insurers will insist on calculating reinstatement building costs at €4,000 per sqm, (compared to about €1,000 per sqm for a regular house. If you have a mortgage the bank insists on insurance so you are over a barrel. So you sit and freeze your a$$ off because your maintenance bills are so high that on the occasional times you turn the heating on it is so low it just about stops the water in the jakes from freezing. And if you go away for more than a week you have to drain the entire water system or you are not covered against a burst pipe. And that is only one policy condition.If you feel so strongly about saving old buildings why don’t you stop writing $hite and put your money where your mouth is and do something about it? Like buying one and trying to maintain it – there are lots available at the moment, just look at any estate agent’s site or Nama. Or if you cannot do that why not lobby to exempt listed buildings from property tax or to provide decent grants to renovate (what is currently available is not worth the effort)Rant over.

I see Pedro's being his usual discourteous self :rolleyes:

dubhthach

Jesus. wrote: »

I see Pedro's being his usual discourteous self :rolleyes:

Irrelevant, please read the forum charter specifically:

People who consistently go off-topic and pursue what appear to personal agendas between people will be banned permanently, either in that thread or any other threads.

Jesus.

dubhthach wrote: »

6 year old thread, I'm locking it.

Was that really necessary Sir?

jonniebgood1

Jesus. wrote: »

Was that really necessary Sir?

1 week ban. Check forum charter for reasons why.
Moderator.

Jesus.

Jonnie, do you know when Avondale House was restored? I remember driving to it about 8 years ago and it was derelict and falling down. But someone has since said that that couldn't have been it because it was restored by then.

I don't know how I could have set out to find this building and identified another ruin as Avondale itself only to be told years later that I'd got the wrong house

kildarejohn

Jesus. wrote: »

Jonnie, do you know when Avondale House was restored? I remember driving to it about 8 years ago and it was derelict and falling down. But someone has since said that that couldn't have been it because it was restored by then.

I don't know how I could have set out to find this building and identified another ruin as Avondale itself only to be told years later that I'd got the wrong house

Are we talking about CS Parnell's Avondale in Rathdrum? AFAIK that was restored over 20 years ago.

Jesus.

Then what freaking house was I at?!!

L1011

I'm pretty sure Avondale was restored in the 70s or earlier even. Was used as a training centre at one point.

majoryeates

The film company that produced the "Irish RM" had their offices on the upper floors of JK house whilst filming and as far as I understand the building was not that bad structurally. Does anybody have any additional photos of the property they could share, is there a new house built directly over the footprint of the original building?

majoryeates

After some research on Google Earth it appears there is a substantial 2/3 storey residence constructed on the footprint of JK House, however the strange thing is that the new house is not recorded on OSI maps which is very unusual.

majoryeates

Just to bring this thread back to its original topic the demolition of Johnstown Kennedy House. I recently spoke with Bryan Murray who played Flurry Knox in the Irish RM which was filmed in the house a couple of years prior to demolition. According to Bryan it was to his dismay and the rest of the crew that the house was knocked as in his opinion the house was in reasonably good repair. It was suggested here by one of the other contributors that the film company had some how dickied the place up to make it look good when in fact it was in tatters, not true according Bryan. The scenes in the RM are pretty much how the house was, the ground floor was used for filming, first floor was wardrobes and second floor was the editing and office for the set. It's a real pity the local authority didn't have this property listed as it was a fine example of Georgian architecture of which very little is left in this part of Dublin.

majoryeates

See Facebook page with interesting facts and article about Johnstown Kennedy House!

facebook.com/Johnstown-Kennedy-Rathcoole-Co-Dublin-473455326180169/