AND IF THE NRA WERE RIGHT ?

Erinfan

Finally, the view that the problem of violence by firearms in America was due to the proliferation of arms in the streets advanced and sustained staunchly by the mass media is not more valid than the theories of NRA about the societal problem (culture of violence promoted by the entertainment industries and the usage of drugs which deteriorated the mental health of youth) according to the American opinion polls.


http://edition.cnn.com/POLITICS/pollingcenter/polls/3380

CollardGreens

Speaking of the NRA, why is it that the progressive liberals who steal guns, and then go and kill movie-goers and children in school, have never been a conservative NRA member?

· Ft Hood- Registered Democrat-

· Columbine- Too young to vote- both families were Registered Democrats and progressive liberals

· VaTech- Wrote hate mail to Pres Bush and to his staff -- Registered Democrat

· Colorado Theater- Registered Democrat, staff worker on the Obama campaign, occupy wall street participant, progressive liberal

· Conn School Shooter- Registered Democrat, hated Christians

ALL of these shooters were progressive liberal Democrats

Interesting...isn't it?

Jonny7

School shootings happen in the US because of many reasons, not just relatively easy access to guns.

Many of these reasons are deep social factors that cannot be solved with legislation

The easy access to fully automatic weapons and extended magazines (which have absolutely no social purpose) can be enacted upon and changed.

If the legislation passes, then school and mass shootings won't automatically stop, it will just mean that if someone does want to shoot up a lot of people it will be harder for them to do so.

Common sense.

Ash.J.Williams

Not sure how obama's screening is going to work, "sorry sir you cannot purchase this gun because your 9 year old son has the potential to act out violent thoughts in the future"

Jonny7

I recommend reading about it rather than guessing how it will work.

Anyone wanting to get a shotgun here is screened as far as I know.

CollardGreens

I don't think any of this will go anywhere. Obama is just trying to flex himself with power. Only thing it is doing is making firearm sellers very rich ppl. I went last night to purchase ammo and had to hit 2 stores before finding some for just one of my guns. SOLD OUT! It takes a tank of gas just to find any. What the liberals are trying to do is working in reverse. I know ppl in their 80's, pregnant women, people of all walks that never were into guns that are taking classes and arming themselves.

Why, 2 reasons ~ one, they don't trust the government and 2, with the recession there are more robberies and people are getting meaner.

CollardGreens

@ Johnny

I'm not sure about the laws in all states but where I live to buy a rifle you do not have to have a background check, only for pistols.

Truthfully, with all the mental ppl it is almost too easy. I would support a background check for anyone purchasing a gun BUT I do not support any control on what kind of gun a person can have if they are not mental or a fellon.

Witcher

Jonny7 wrote: »

School shootings happen in the US because of many reasons, not just relatively easy access to guns.

Many of these reasons are deep social factors that cannot be solved with legislation

The easy access to fully automatic weapons and extended magazines (which have absolutely no social purpose) can be enacted upon and changed.

F/A are not easily accessible in the US since the 1930's. You have to get apply to the BATFE for a classIII licence for one plus a F/a M16 will cost you upwards of $16000..you can't just pick one up at will.

granturismo

Blay wrote: »

..plus a F/a M16 will cost you upwards of $16000..you can't just pick one up at will.

I saw a fully automatic AK47 clone in a WI hardware/hunting shop for about $500.

In some states, cant guns be bought at guns shows for cash with no background check?

Witcher

granturismo wrote: »

I saw a fully automatic AK47 clone in a WI hardware/hunting shop for about $500.

In some states, cant guns be bought at guns shows for cash with no background check?

Very much doubt it was F/A..more likely a semi...they look the same.

Yes they can but not a F/A.

Jonny7

CollardGreens wrote: »

@ Johnny

I'm not sure about the laws in all states but where I live to buy a rifle you do not have to have a background check, only for pistols.

Truthfully, with all the mental ppl it is almost too easy. I would support a background check for anyone purchasing a gun BUT I do not support any control on what kind of gun a person can have if they are not mental or a fellon.

Differing laws for different states, e.g. I believe NY has already implemented proposals very similar to Obama's.

Personally I would love to be able to purchase fully automatic weapons, however I would fully support a ban on these weapons, they don't serve any purpose (hunting, etc) and are far too dangerous for home defense.

Basically, there's no reason they should be on sale to the general public because the risks far outweigh the benefits of such weapons.

ps I'm only referring to fully automatic weapons here and not semi-automatic which are often wrongly labeled by press, etc.

Witcher

Jonny7 wrote: »

Differing laws for different states, e.g. I believe NY has already implemented proposals very similar to Obama's.

Personally I would love to be able to purchase fully automatic weapons, however I would fully support a ban on these weapons, they don't serve any purpose (hunting, etc) and are far too dangerous for home defense.

Basically, there's no reason they should be on sale to the general public because the risks far outweigh the benefits of such weapons.

ps I'm only referring to fully automatic weapons here and not semi-automatic which are often wrongly labeled by press, etc.

They're not on sale to the general public..they're heavily restricted and the people who do have them generally don't even shoot them and invest in them so the firearms will appreciate in value. People bought M16's in the 90's for a few thousand..now they're 15-20000 dollars.

CollardGreens

Thank you Blay for bringing up a good point, they increase in value! I looked up one of my guns and it's already worth 3 X's what I paid just 2 months ago. Another one 2 X's what I paid a year ago.

I figure it's better than buying gold.

Duck Soup

CollardGreens wrote: »

Speaking of the NRA, why is it that the progressive liberals who steal guns, and then go and kill movie-goers and children in school, have never been a conservative NRA member?

· Ft Hood- Registered Democrat-

· Columbine- Too young to vote- both families were Registered Democrats and progressive liberals

· VaTech- Wrote hate mail to Pres Bush and to his staff -- Registered Democrat

· Colorado Theater- Registered Democrat, staff worker on the Obama campaign, occupy wall street participant, progressive liberal

· Conn School Shooter- Registered Democrat, hated Christians

ALL of these shooters were progressive liberal Democrats

Interesting...isn't it?

I've seen this e-mail doing the rounds, so let's go through it. Nidal Malik Hasan, the Fort Hood shooter, wasn't a registered anything. He listened to the sermons of extremist Islamic preachers, but he would have spat on both Democrats and Republicans as Satan's little helpers. Not a Democrat.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nidal_Hasan

The Columbine shooters, Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold, were not Democrats and not the sons of "progressive liberals". Eric Harris's father was a US Air Force pilot and Dylan Kiebold's family were strict Lutherans. These were two very conservative families.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eric_Harris_and_Dylan_Klebold

The Virginia Tech shooter, Seung-Hui Cho, once again wasn't a registered anything. Upon emigrating to America, his family became devout Christians and church-goers. The shooting was based almost exclusively on the humiliation he felt at the hands of rich kids at Virginia Tech.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seung-Hui_Cho

The Aurora Colorado shooter, James Eagan Holmes? This one is an absolute doozy. Holmes was never an Obama campaign worker. No newspaper or TV station has ever claimed he was an Obama campaign worker. There is exactly zero evidence he was an Obama campaign worker. Holmes was not an Occupy Wall Street member or an Occupy Anywhere Member. There's no evidence he even agreed with OWS. He wasn't a "progressive liberal". He had no connections with any political party. Every 'fact' stated in the e-mail circular about James Eagan Holmes is a verifiable lie, from beginning to end.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Eagan_Holmes

And so on and so on. By all means, let's have a discussion of the merits of gun ownership and gun control, but let's not base it on straightforward lies and inventions about the motives of mass killers.

CollardGreens

All "wikipedia" info?:rolleyes:

sry......got to do better than that.

LeinsterDub

CollardGreens wrote: »

All "wikipedia" info?:rolleyes:

sry......got to do better than that.

All referenced wiki pages. wiki has been proven to be more reliable than the Britaniaca

dango

CollardGreens wrote: »

All "wikipedia" info?:rolleyes:

sry......got to do better than that.

Yet you provide 0 references for your claims.

Denerick

You know, its threads like these that make me cherish the fact that I'm Irish and hence from a relatively sane body politic.

Duck Soup

CollardGreens wrote: »

All "wikipedia" info?:rolleyes:

sry......got to do better than that.

I searched for Holmes's name and phrases like "obama campaign" and "occupy". The answers from news sources come back zero, zero and zero.

Ditto any of them being registered Democrats.

The Wikipedia pages give you the family histories. Eric Harris's father was a US Air Force pilot and Dylan Kiebold's family were strict Lutherans. Seung-Hui Cho's family were devout church-goers. These were conservative families.

I can prove via Wikipedia that the backgrounds of these shooters were broadly conservative.

I can't prove a negative, but I can report back what I find.

There is no proof, evidence or news reports of James Eagan Holmes having ever worked for the Obama campaign in any capacity. No proof, reports or evidence of James Eagan Holmes ever having even attended an Occupy protest.

There is no proof, evidence or news reports of Nidal Malik Hasan being a registered Democrat.

There is no proof, evidence or news reports of Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold familes being "registered Democrats" and "progressive liberals". In fact, the military and church-going backgrounds strongly suggest conservative values.

There is no proof, evidence or news reports of Seung-Hui Cho being a "registered Democrat".

In fact, I checked out all these claims and not one of them stands up to even the slightest examination.

Now someone who rolls their eyes at the background information provided by Wikipedia obviously has a lot, lot more hard evidence than a single blowhard email or unsubstantiated message board post to go on.

You can't prove a negative. All I can do is report back that there is zero, zilch, nada, nothing to back up any of the email's claims.

But you can prove a positive. So where are the facts and references to back up the email/board post claims?

Manic Moran

LeinsterDub wrote: »

All referenced wiki pages. wiki has been proven to be more reliable than the Britaniaca

Only on matters of science and engineering, if you look at the report which said that. The closer the subject got to current events or politics, the less reliable it becomes.

Even if something in wiki has a cite, it doesn't mean it's correct, as there is nothing saying the cited newspaper article or whatever is correct. I have encountered a few wiki errors in the course of my work over the last year, and I generally focus on stuff from the 1940s. It is particularly difficult for specialty researchers such as myself. Wiki's editing policy is that it doesn't matter if you are right if you try to change a commonly held understanding, if you hold a minority viewpoint you will be described as such. There was a wonderful article about a year ago by the world's specialist in the US pre-civil war slave trading trials when after much investigation he realised that the commonly held but unresearched belief was wrong and the fight he had with wiki to try to get the record corrected.

That said, OP provides no references either, so also deserves to be treated with a copious helping of salt.

Cossax

Manic Moran wrote: »

Only on matters of science and engineering, if you look at the report which said that. The closer the subject got to current events or politics, the less reliable it becomes.

Even if something in wiki has a cite, it doesn't mean it's correct, as there is nothing saying the cited newspaper article or whatever is correct. I have encountered a few wiki errors in the course of my work over the last year, and I generally focus on stuff from the 1940s. It is particularly difficult for specialty researchers such as myself. Wiki's editing policy is that it doesn't matter if you are right if you try to change a commonly held understanding, if you hold a minority viewpoint you will be described as such. There was a wonderful article about a year ago by the world's specialist in the US pre-civil war slave trading trials when after much investigation he realised that the commonly held but unresearched belief was wrong and the fight he had with wiki to try to get the record corrected.

That said, OP provides no references either, so also deserves to be treated with a copious helping of salt.

Some parts of Wikipedia consist of the victory of consensus over accuracy.

In this case, I'd be incredibly sceptical of the claims without getting as far as Duck Soup's rather good excellent posts on the matter.

CollardGreens

Oh my goodness, I haven't visited this thread in a while and I apologize for getting a few of you fellows undies in a wad for it wasn't my intention.

If my information is incorrect then I'm stand corrected. Now I don't believe the wikepedia or those other on-line know-it-all links but I didn't look up the info like accused. For the record, I'm registered Independent so I don't give a puppies butt what their affiliates are to tell the truth. They are mean, and mean ppl sukc!

Who gets to spank me first? (or should I just be sent to my room?)

Exile 1798

CollardGreens wrote: »

Speaking of the NRA, why is it that the progressive liberals who steal guns, and then go and kill movie-goers and children in school, have never been a conservative NRA member?

· Ft Hood- Registered Democrat-

· Columbine- Too young to vote- both families were Registered Democrats and progressive liberals

· VaTech- Wrote hate mail to Pres Bush and to his staff -- Registered Democrat

· Colorado Theater- Registered Democrat, staff worker on the Obama campaign, occupy wall street participant, progressive liberal

· Conn School Shooter- Registered Democrat, hated Christians

ALL of these shooters were progressive liberal Democrats

Interesting...isn't it?

Duck Soup wrote: »

I've seen this e-mail doing the rounds, so let's go through it. Nidal Malik Hasan, the Fort Hood shooter, wasn't a registered anything. He listened to the sermons of extremist Islamic preachers, but he would have spat on both Democrats and Republicans as Satan's little helpers. Not a Democrat.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nidal_Hasan

The Columbine shooters, Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold, were not Democrats and not the sons of "progressive liberals". Eric Harris's father was a US Air Force pilot and Dylan Kiebold's family were strict Lutherans. These were two very conservative families.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eric_Harris_and_Dylan_Klebold

The Virginia Tech shooter, Seung-Hui Cho, once again wasn't a registered anything. Upon emigrating to America, his family became devout Christians and church-goers. The shooting was based almost exclusively on the humiliation he felt at the hands of rich kids at Virginia Tech.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seung-Hui_Cho

The Aurora Colorado shooter, James Eagan Holmes? This one is an absolute doozy. Holmes was never an Obama campaign worker. No newspaper or TV station has ever claimed he was an Obama campaign worker. There is exactly zero evidence he was an Obama campaign worker. Holmes was not an Occupy Wall Street member or an Occupy Anywhere Member. There's no evidence he even agreed with OWS. He wasn't a "progressive liberal". He had no connections with any political party. Every 'fact' stated in the e-mail circular about James Eagan Holmes is a verifiable lie, from beginning to end.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Eagan_Holmes

And so on and so on. By all means, let's have a discussion of the merits of gun ownership and gun control, but let's not base it on straightforward lies and inventions about the motives of mass killers.

CollardGreens wrote: »

All "wikipedia" info?:rolleyes:

sry......got to do better than that.

The search warrants relating to Sandy Hook were released by authorities today.

At the school:

1 Bushmaster .223 caliber model XM15 rifle with a 30-round magazine
1 Glock 10mm handgun
1 9mm Sig Sauer P226 handgun
1 Saiga 12 shotgun with two magazines containing 70 rounds
6 30-round magazines, three of them emptied
At the home:

Guns:

1 Enfield bolt-action .323 rifle
1 Savage Mark II .22 caliber rifle with magazine, 3 live rounds, 1 spent cartridge
1 black marksman BB gun
Ammunition:

5 Winchester 12-gauge shotgun shells cut open, with buckshot
1 white plastic bag with 30 Winchester 12-gauge shotgun shells
1 can with .22 caliber and .45 caliber bullets
8 boxes of Winchester Windcat .22 caliber bullets, 50 rounds per box
20 “Estate” 12-gauge shotgun shells
4 boxes of SB buckshot 12-gauge, 10 round per box
1 box of Lightfield 12-gauge slugs
1 box of 20 Prvi Partizan 303 British rifle cartridges
1 box of 20 Federal 303 British rifle cartridges
2 boxes of .22 long rifle Blazer rounds, 50 each box
1 box with numerous rounds of Winchester .45 caliber bullets
2 boxes of 50 rounds of PPU .45 caliber automatic
1 box of 20 rounds for Remington .223 caliber
3 boxes of Blazer 40 S&W, 50 rounds each
2 boxes of Winchester 5.56 mm, 20 rounds each
1 box of Magtech 45ACP with 30 rounds
1 empty Box of SSA 5.56 mm
1 box of Fiocchi .45 auto with 48 rounds
80 rounds of CCI .22 long rifle
6 boxes of PMC .223 rem, 20 rounds each
6 Winchester 9 pellet buckshot shells, 12-gauge
2 Remington 12-gauge slugs
3 Winchester .223 rifle rounds
31 .22 caliber rounds
2 boxes of Underwood 10 mm auto, each with 50 rounds
130 rounds of Lawman 9mm Luger
2 spent shell casings for Glock 10mm
1 empty box of Gold Dot 9mm Luger
2 empty boxes of Winchester 9mm Luger
1 box of Underwood 10mm auto with 34 rounds
1 box of 29 miscellaneous 9mm rounds
1 spent .22 shell casing
1 small plastic bag containing numerous .22 caliber bullets
1 tan bag with numerous Blazer .45 caliber bullets
1 box of Blazer .22 long rifle with 50 rounds
1 box PPU 303 British cartridges with 9 rounds
2 Winchester 9mm rounds
2 brass-colored shell casings
1 small caliber bullet (live round) labeled C
Magazines:

1 Promag 20-round 12-gauge drum magazine
1 MD Arms 20-round 12 gauge drum magazine
3 AGP Arms 12-gauge shotgun magazines
1 Surefire GunMag magazine with 8 rounds of Winchester 12-gauge, 9-pellet buckshot
2 AGP Arms 12-gauge shotgun magazines, taped together, each with 10 rounds of Winchester 9-pellet buckshot
2 empty Ram Line magazines for Ruger 10-22
1 AGP Arms Gen 2 12-gauge shotgun magazine with 10 rounds of Winchester 12-gauge, 9-pellet buckshot
1 clear plastic Ramline magazine for an AR 15
1 magazine with 10 rounds of .223 bullets
Knives:

Metal bayonet
1 6-foot-10-inch wood-handled two-sided pole with a blade on one side and a spear on the other
1 Samurai sword with a 28-inch blade and sheath
1 Samurai sword with a 21-inch blade and a sheath
1 Samurai sword with a 13-inch blade and sheath
1 knife with a 12-inch blade and sheath
1 wooden-handle knife with a 7.5-inch blade and sheath
1 wooden-handle knife with a 10-inch blade
1 knife with a 5.5-inch blade and sheath
1 black-handled knife with a 7-inch blade and sheath
1 black rubber-handled knife with 9.5-inch blade and sheath
1 white and brown-handled knife with 5-inch blade and sheath
1 brown wood-handled knife with a 10.25-inch blade
1 Panther brown-handled folding knife with a 3.75 inch blade
1 small blue folding knife
Gear:

1 Volcanic .22 starter pistol wth 5 live rounds and 1 expended round
Leightning L3 ear protection
Peltor ear plugs
Simmons binoculars
Uncle Mike’s Sidekick nylon holster
Box for vest accessories
Leather dual magazine holder
Black leather handgun holster
High Sierra fanny pack
Numerous paper targets
1 cardboard targets
1 Bushnell sport view rifle scope
Plastic bag of miscellaneous parts
Safariland holster paperwork
Glock handgun manual
MD-20 20-round shotgun magazine manual
MD Arms V-Plug guide
Bushmaster XM15 and C15 instruction manual
Savage Arms bolt-action rifle manual
Glock paperwork

Miscellaneous:

Adam Lanza’s National Rifle Association certificate
Nancy Lanza’s NRA certificate
Three photographs with images of what appears to be a deceased human covered with plastic and what appears to be blood
Holiday card with a check from Nancy Lanza to Adam Lanza for purchase of C183 firearm
1 digital print of a child and various firearms
1 military-style uniform
Handwritten notes with addresses of local gun shops
Receipts and emails documenting firearm and ammunition supplies
Blue folder labeled “guns” with receipts and paperwork
Paperwork titled “Connecticut Gun Exchange Glock 20SF 10mm” dated 12-21-11
Sandy Hook report card for Adam Lanza
New York Times article on a 2008 shooting at Northern Illinois Unversity
Books: “Look me in the Eye: My Life with Asperger’s;” “Born on a Blue Day: Inside the Mind of an Autistic Savant;” “NRA Guide to Basics of Pistol Shooting;” “Train our Brain to Get Happy”
1 Seagate Barracuda 500gb hard drive, damaged
1 custom-built desktop computer, no hard drive
1 Microsoft Xbox with partially obliterated serial number
One cotton swab of blood-like substance
1 tan sheet with blood-like substance
1 tan fitted sheet with blood-like substance
1 striped towel with blood-like substance

http://openchannel.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/03/28/17503410-read-the-newtown-search-warrants-released-by-authorities

Gatling

Amazing the night of the sandy hook shooting the NRA stated the gun/s used would be shown to be illegally held ,interesting statement in its self,
Now it turns out the shooter was a fully paid certified NRA member ,
They knew this all along it now seems

MadsL

Gatling wrote: »

Amazing the night of the sandy hook shooting the NRA stated the gun/s used would be shown to be illegally held ,interesting statement in its self,
Now it turns out the shooter was a fully paid certified NRA member ,
They knew this all along it now seems

He also had an Xbox. Is there a point were are drawing out from this?

Certificate = he attended an NRA firearms class.

InTheTrees

LeinsterDub wrote: »

All referenced wiki pages. wiki has been proven to be more reliable than the Britaniaca

Welcome to the world of the US Right Wing.

They throw out some outrageous unsubstantiated lie, quoting some right wing rumour mill as a source (or none at all) and then when challenged, instead of arguing the matter they just trash the more reliable source.

Its the Sarah Palin world of discourse.

InTheTrees

I believe if you buy any (new, from a dealer) gun in the US, it automatically comes with NRA membership.

Ironic really because it means the NRA has a far more comprehensive registry of gun owners than the government.

Witcher

InTheTrees wrote: »

I believe if you buy any (new, from a dealer) gun in the US, it automatically comes with NRA membership.

That is incorrect.

Amerika

I receive my NRA certificate in the mail every year.... It means nothing! It doesn't become effective nor official until I send in the money they require, which I have never done. I have never belonged to the NRA, but this year I just might as they seem to be the only organization fighting to keep our second ammendment rights intact, and as president Obama is now using executive power to circumvent the role of congress on gun control. Too bad I threw it out a couple of weeks ago and looks like I may have to apply online.

FISMA

InTheTrees wrote: »

I believe if you buy any (new, from a dealer) gun in the US, it automatically comes with NRA membership.

Unfortunately not.

However, if you are interested, you can join right now and receive a lifetime membership for a reduced price of $300.

Here's the link,
https://membership.nrahq.org/forms/signup.asp?campaignid=cheaperthandirttv

If Canadians can join, I wonder if gun owners in Ireland can.

That $300 is one of the cheapest insurance policies you can buy, which includes

• [FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Life members receive $10,000 of Accidental Death and Dismemberment coverage at NO COST to you. The plan covers accidents at, or to and from, an NRA event; and accidents that occur during the use of firearms or hunting equipment while hunting. Insurance must be activated at time of upgrade to Life member status[/FONT]
• [FONT=Arial, sans-serif]$2,500 of ArmsCare coverage with your NRA membership. This plan covers insured firearms, air guns, bows and arrows against theft, accidental loss, and damage. Insurance must be activated. [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Link[/FONT]

Sparks

FISMA wrote: »

If Canadians can join, I wonder if gun owners in Ireland can.

Yes, they can - we have NRA-accredited instructors in Ireland so they have to be able to be members.
I would pay extraordinary attention to the fine print though, I know of one Irish shooter who had all of his kit bar his rifle stolen while at an international match and then found out that his UK insurance had a clause in 6-point type that said, basicly, "we don't pay out if it doesn't happen in the UK".