Told I owe the social welfare 300 euro because I left a course, interested in opinons

G.muny

Ok So basically I am a 25 yr old girl from Dublin, was out of work last year and decided to go back to College. Applied for back to education to support myself.

A few months into the course I was offered full time employment and the idea of working appealed to me more so left the course, took the job and informed social welfare I was leaving the course and now had a full time job.

Before Christmas I got a letter from social welfare claiming I owed the 300 euro over paid charge in form of a book grant. The letter said I got this payment in August....My claim hadn't even gone through in August, course didn't start till mid Sept on top of that my first claim was rejected due to misinformation so I had to appeal it and didn't get any payments till late Sept so basically was receiving no money at all in August and had to get loans from family to support myself till my claim went through.

I wrote back telling them this and they just sent me out the same letter this time with must be paid highlighted in yellow. I wrote back a second time telling them I was under no circumstances paying 300 euro I had never received and obviously they had made a mistake

I got a phone call today saying actually I had gotten this payment in October, I said I actually had no recollection of such a payment but I may be wrong as I occasionally had part time work (allowed on back to education) so sometimes I had more money in my account than other times. I was told I needed bank statements dating back 6 months and I said that was grand I would get those but regardless if I was paid it anyway it was during a time I was studying and all the money I did get from any source at the time went towards studying and traveling to college anyway.

I was told that didn't matter I had to pay it back. I asked why was this I was told "Thats just the way it is" I said that really not a very good answer and to elaborate on it she said "those are just the rules". I asked her did I sign any documents when I was applying saying in the case I left the course (which I am entitled to do) that I would have to pay back any of the money received back to education. She said yes there was one. I said ok if you can provide me with this document that I signed I will pay...she then back tracked and said "You know there is no document like that!" I said ok so I wasn't informed I would have to pay anything back nor did I agree or sign anything with these terms so I am not paying it.

She said ok she would have to bring it to the manager and take it further. I said ok then do that so waiting to hear back from them now.

This really annoys me. For starters I don't make a lot of money, 300 is quite a bit of money to me. I also pay PRSI, its not like I got a hand out. I pay PRSI so if I decide I want to do a course when I am out of work or something similar that money is there. Technically that is my money! They never told me in the case I dropped out I would need to pay them any money back nor did I sign anything saying I did. The way it was dealt with was soooo unprofessional it made me want to pull my hair out. She also said I apparently got this payment from the post office (my claim was always paid into the bank )

Anyway I feel like I am in the right here and so have most people Ive talked to about it. Just interested to hear opinions or possible similar situations.

ronaneire

And you want serious replies in AH?

Chucken

Try posting here:http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=861
You might get better info

Stheno

OP go through your bank statements and check if you actually received the payment.

If you didn't then send/take in copies of your statements to social welfare.

G.muny

Ah kk....if someone wants to move this if its in the wrong place thats grand and apologies.

G.muny

Stheno wrote: »

OP go through your bank statements and check if you actually received the payment.

If you didn't then send/take in copies of your statements to social welfare.

Even if I didn't I still did think I should as it would have been spent on my studies anyway and as I said I was never informed if I left the course I'd have to pay money back which in fairness...its 300 euro, something like that should be stated.

Senna

I would agree that if you are given a payment relating to a course, then that payment should be refunded if you choose to leave the course.
But I also agree that you should have been made aware of this, not necessary on a signed document, just because you didn't sign something doesn't mean you are not responsible. This policy is probably designed so people cant just sign up for a course, get a payment, then bugger off. I can understand how this would be abused and a policy of repayment is needed.

kneemos

You were paid to stay in education ane you left,pay them back THEIR money.

G.muny

kneemos wrote: »

You were paid to stay in education ane you left,pay them back THEIR money.

No, I wasn't paid to stay in education, I was paid money to support myself while I was studying and its not their money.

looksee

If you got the grant - and a payment in of exactly €300 would be pretty easy to see on a bank statement - and if you did not spend all of it on books, then you pay at least the balance back. If you were only there a few months you are not likely to have bought all the books, and that was what the money was for, not travelling, or anything else.

sfwcork

Somebody has to pay the bankers innit

G.muny

I did in fact buy all the course material, its was more than 300 euro.

reprazant

So, you were given money to do a course, didn't bother doing it and you're wondering should you pay it back?

Of course!

Why bother starting the course if you were just going to drop it at the first chance? You could have taken the BTE of some one who really wanted to improve themselves

smileyj1987

Just give them the books back and say heres your money back , problem solved .

Matt_Trakker

G.muny wrote: »

Ok So basically I am a 25 yr old girl from Dublin

The 'basically' bit makes me suspicious.

fasttalkerchat

kneemos wrote: »

You were paid to stay in education ane you left,pay them back THEIR money.

The job of Social Welfare is to get people into a job. If they expect claimants to return education allowance they are creating a barrier to entering employment... to the tune of €300.

If they want this money back they are actively discouraging people from taking up work.

Senna

You aren't even sure you got €300, I'm in full time work and if I got a payment of €10 I'd know and remember about it.

DrumSteve

Send them a bag of **** in the post.

G.muny

reprazant wrote: »

So, you were given money to do a course, didn't bother doing it and you're wondering should you pay it back?

Of course!

Why bother starting the course if you were just going to drop it at the first chance? You could have taken the BTE of some one who really wanted to improve themselves

Sorry, where did I say I didn't attend the course. I started the course so I wasn't sitting on my arse doing nothing when I had no work. I left the course because I got a job not because I wasn't bothered which I am entitled to do. Lots of people start courses and get work or decide its not for them that really isn't a sin and as I said I pay PRSI for this reason if I decide I want to try and do a course MY money which I pay in tax goes towards that. It wasn't out of their own pockets.

Get off your high horse.

Senna

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

If they want this money back they are actively discouraging people from taking up work.

or maybe discouraging people from taking up valuable places on course just to leave whenever they feel like it.

kneemos

G.muny wrote: »

No, I wasn't paid to stay in education, I was paid money to support myself while I was studying and its not their money.

No it's our money and your not entitled to it.

ted1

Because you left the course you should reimburse them the money.

the money was for doing the course, but you didn't do the course.

don't say you did, as the course ran from A to B and you never got to B.

fasttalkerchat

Senna wrote: »

or maybe discouraging people from taking up valuable places on course just to leave whenever they feel like it.

... Or whenever they successfully find work.

I can understand if the OP dropped out. But there should be an exception for people who find work!

DrumSteve

kneemos wrote: »

No it's our money and your not entitled to it.

Who are you referring to when you say our?

She contributed to the fund through her taxes so its her money also.

kneemos

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

The job of Social Welfare is to get people into a job. If they expect claimants to return education allowance they are creating a barrier to entering employment... to the tune of €300.

If they want this money back they are actively discouraging people from taking up work.

They don't expect people to return it if they complete the course.

G.muny

Senna wrote: »

or maybe discouraging people from taking up valuable places on course just to leave whenever they feel like it.

Yes...what I should have done was turn down employment and you know contributing to society kind of the reason I was doing the course in the first place....to gain employment because I was taking up a place on a course :rolleyes: riiiiiiight.

P_1

First of all make sure they paid you the money.

If there's a payment made for €300 on your statement then chances are they paid you the money and you should pay them back.
If it isn't on your statement, just send them a copy of the statement with a letter asking where the €300 is supposed to have come from.

Senna

G.muny wrote: »

Sorry, where did I say I didn't attend the course. I started the course so I wasn't sitting on my arse doing nothing when I had no work. I left the course because I got a job not because I wasn't bothered which I am entitled to do. Lots of people start courses and get work or decide its not for them that really isn't a sin and as I said I pay PRSI for this reason if I decide I want to try and do a course MY money which I pay in tax goes towards that. It wasn't out of their own pockets.

Get off your high horse.

You lost all sympathy now, you are not entitled to waste other peoples time or money, the PRSI you paid is not cash sitting in a bank somewhere for you to piss away on whatever stated funded whim takes your fancy this money.

kneemos

DrumSteve wrote: »

Who are you referring to when you say our?

She contributed to the fund through her taxes so its her money also.

It's mine as well.

G.muny

ted1 wrote: »

Because you left the course you should reimburse them the money.

the money was for doing the course, but you didn't do the course.

don't say you did, as the course ran from A to B and you never got to B.

I never said I finished it but when I got it I was studying. That is like me leaving a job and my employer asking me for 300 euro wages back.

Doop

300euro is a pittance compared to what the actual cost to the state is of you starting a course and dropping out.

I dont know where you get your sense of entitlement, the 300euro book allowance at the start of the yr from the BTE is to help
you pay for the supplies for your course for the year, you dropped out... pay it back!

(provided you did receive it of course, which I suspect you did)

G.muny

kneemos wrote: »

It's mine as well.

Believe me Ive paid well over 300 euro in PRSI.

feargale

ronaneire wrote: »

And you want serious replies in AH?

I know nothing of the rights and wrongs of your case, butyou seem to have kept a good record of all communications between you and your adversaries. That's good. They are claiming the money, not vice versa, therefore it's up to them to make the first serious move. You dont have alot to worry about until that happens, because the ball would appear to be in their court. From what you say about your circumstances, you are possibly entitled to legal aid, and you should look into that. Another way to go is " talk to Joe," but I dont think you should engage with them live on the radio. They are presumably well versed in this kind of hassle, and innocent, inexperienced people have been known to talk themselves onto the gallows. Continue to keep a good record, and engage a solicitor when the time comes. Above all dont sit on it when the ball is in your court. I think your strongest trump as of now is the self-contradiction and backtracking you experienced. Good luck.

G.muny

Doop wrote: »

300euro is a pittance compared to what the actual cost to the state is of you starting a course and dropping out.

I dont know where you get your sense of entitlement, the 300euro book allowance at the start of the yr from the BTE is to help
you pay for the supplies for your course for the year, you dropped out... pay it back!

(provided you did receive it of course, which I suspect you did)

Its not pittance to me....and I pay the state that money they used anyway and they are now paying less considering if I had of stayed they would still be footing me 188 euro a week for two years where as now I am working fulltime and paying PRSI again.

DrumSteve

kneemos wrote: »

It's mine as well.

Its mine too in that case.

She went and got a job, didnt go onto the dole... Technically she did the state a favour!

Need to build a stables in AH for all the high horses round here.

Madam_X

reprazant wrote: »

Why bother starting the course if you were just going to drop it at the first chance?

Because she didn't have a crystal ball to inform her she would be offered a job in the future, during the course.

reprazant

G.muny wrote: »

Sorry, where did I say I didn't attend the course. I started the course so I wasn't sitting on my arse doing nothing when I had no work. I left the course because I got a job not because I wasn't bothered which I am entitled to do. Lots of people start courses and get work or decide its not for them that really isn't a sin and as I said I pay PRSI for this reason if I decide I want to try and do a course MY money which I pay in tax goes towards that. It wasn't out of their own pockets.

Get off your high horse.

No, you paid PRSI and received the dole. You got 300 extra on top of that for something you did not finish.

Also, it is not your money, it is the states money. When you pay tax, it goes towards lots ot things, not just you.

Celly Smunt

The 300 is "the cost of education" allowance to cover supplies and books you may need.I'm sure it's a kick in the balls having to pay it back,but work out a deal with them where you pay a fiver a week our something.You're working now there's no excuse for not being able to pay a fiver.

If you sell the books next year you'll get back 150 or so anyway.

I do however feel you have a point where you're coming from,the social welfare is there to help people get back into employment and they should be happy to have succeeded in doing that rather than penalising them.

fasttalkerchat

kneemos wrote: »

They don't expect people to return it if they complete the course.

The job offer may not be there when the OP competes the course. If the OP turned down a job offer to avoid paying the €300 she would be claiming benefits all the way through the course and on completion until a job offer comes around again.

In my opinion the best option for both the SW and the OP was to take the offer. She misses out on her qualification but gets a job. The SW are down €300 but have one person off the live register and will therefore save that €300 in no time.

G.muny

feargale wrote: »

I know nothing of the rights and wrongs of your case, butyou seem to have kept a good record of all communications between you and your adversaries. That's good. They are claiming the money, not vice versa, therefore it's up to them to make the first serious move. You dont have alot to worry about until that happens, because the ball would appear to be in their court. From what you say about your circumstances, you are possibly entitled to legal aid, and you should look into that. Another way to go is " talk to Joe," but I dont think you should engage with them live on the radio. They are presumably well versed in this kind of hassle, and innocent, inexperienced people have been known to talk themselves onto the gallows. Continue to keep a good record, and engage a solicitor when the time comes. Above all dont sit on it when the ball is in your court. I think your strongest trump as of now is the self-contradiction and backtracking you experienced. Good luck.

Oh yeah if they try and pressure me into paying it I will get a solicitor involved alright. Considering I signed nothing and never agreed to anything and all the mistakes and lies they have already told to me. Have it all written and dated.

G.muny

reprazant wrote: »

No, you paid PRSI and received the dole. You got 300 extra on top of that for something you did not finish.

Also, it is not your money, it is the states money. When you pay tax, it goes towards lots ot things, not just you.

Where does that 300 euro come from? PRSI which I contribute to paying.

Doop

G.muny wrote: »

Its not pittance to me....and I pay the state that money they used anyway and they are now paying less considering if I had of stayed they would still be footing me 188 euro a week for two years where as now I am working fulltime and paying PRSI again.

300euro is a pittance compared to what the actual cost to the state is ...

PRSI pays for a hell of a lot more than your own individual book allowance... and we ALL pay it, join the club... its fun

Celly Smunt

G.muny wrote: »

Oh yeah if they try and pressure me into paying it I will get a solicitor involved alright. Considering I signed nothing and never agreed to anything and all the mistakes and lies they have already told to me. Have it all written and dated.

that will cost more than 300 with no good outcome,talk to them in a civil manner and they'll help you more so than if you threaten them.

fasttalkerchat

DrumSteve wrote: »

Its mine too in that case.

She went and got a job, didnt go onto the dole... Technically she did the state a favour!

Need to build a stables in AH for all the high horses round here.

Or an aisle in Tesco.


I'll get my coat.

G.muny

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

The job offer may not be there when the OP competes the course. If the OP turned down a job offer to avoid paying the €300 she would be claiming benefits all the way through the course and on completion until a job offer comes around again.

In my opinion the best option for both the SW and the OP was to take the offer. She misses out on her qualification but gets a job. The SW are down €300 but have one person off the live register and will therefore save that €300 in no time.

To be honest its the principal of the thing that gets to me, if I had signed something or even been told prior if I left the course I would have to pay money back I would happily pay it.

Gee_G

G.muny wrote: »

Its not pittance to me....and I pay the state that money they used anyway and they are now paying less considering if I had of stayed they would still be footing me 188 euro a week for two years where as now I am working fulltime and paying PRSI again.

You could be better off posting this in the State Benefits Forum!
Fair play for getting a job and for intending to do the training course in the first place when you were out of work. More people should get back into training when they are unemployed!
But I know when I was a student, whether working part time or not, I DEFINITELY would have noticed if an extra €300 just appeared in my account! Hell I rarely even had that much in my student account, never mind an extra €300
Go into your bank tomorrow and get statements and go into the social welfare office and deal with one person(also get their name for future reference!)

G.muny

pmcmahon wrote: »

that will cost more than 300 with no good outcome,talk to them in a civil manner and they'll help you more so than if you threaten them.

Oh yeah I was civil with them, I just mean if the want to take it further I will.

kneemos

DrumSteve wrote: »

Its mine too in that case.

She went and got a job, didnt go onto the dole... Technically she did the state a favour!

Need to build a stables in AH for all the high horses round here.

She's doing herself a favour by the sounds of it,she got a payment for materials to finish a course that she dropped out of how is she entitled to keep it?

Doop

G.muny wrote: »

Oh yeah if they try and pressure me into paying it I will get a solicitor involved alright. Considering I signed nothing and never agreed to anything and all the mistakes and lies they have already told to me. Have it all written and dated.

haha so you've money to throw round on solicitors then?

I'm sure you signed numerous applications forms in the S.W. which are probably considered binding documents

EoghanIRL

Tldr

Cavehill Red

G.muny wrote: »

Oh yeah if they try and pressure me into paying it I will get a solicitor involved alright. Considering I signed nothing and never agreed to anything and all the mistakes and lies they have already told to me. Have it all written and dated.

You can afford solicitors but can't afford to repay the state 300 euro you owe?
Strange.