Tattoo course

Steroo

My brother wants to be a tattoo artist. He has a starter kit and put a tattoo on his leg. He has been designing tattoos for a long time. He has asked around for some work experience (in midlands) but no joy. He has watched all the you tube lessons! He is no wondering if the tattoo courses in Ireland are worthwhile considering the costs?? Any advice welcome? How do most start? Any artists out there looking for an apprentice or willing to have a chat with him? Savage worker. Dublin or midlands area. Thanks guys

Dr. Jonathan Crane

StephenRooney wrote: »

My brother wants to be a tattoo artist. He has a starter kit and put a tattoo on his leg.

There his first mistake. Those kits are dirt and any tattoo artist will tell you the same. Ditch that for a start.

StephenRooney wrote: »

He is no wondering if the tattoo courses in Ireland are worthwhile considering the costs?? Any advice welcome? How do most start? Any artists out there looking for an apprentice or willing to have a chat with him? Savage worker. Dublin or midlands area. Thanks guys

Most start with an apprenticeship. Those courses are completely useless and will not get him anywhere, complete waste of money. If your brother wants this he'll need to put together a body of work (drawing, painting, etc.) No tattoos done with an eBay machine, any tattooer will have seen/covered up enough of those.

As for getting an apprenticeship, in Dublin it's a lot about who you know. I know a lot of people who want to tattoo and have built up solid portfolios and gotten nothing, not even a hint in the right direction, regardless of their potential. Many artists don't want to take on apprentices nowadays due to the cost anyway. If he's as good as you say then all he can do is get to know various artists and build up an incredible portfolio to bring with him every time he goes in to talk to a tattooer.

bubblebery

I own a tattoo studio. I get asked these questions every day. I give the same answers...

Tell a tattooist that you are tattooing at home without any training or health and safety training and you will NEVER get an apprentice position.

If you want to waste money on a course, they are all bull**** and are frowned upon by all reputable tattoo artists.

If you have not developed a large portfolio of high quality drawings and paintings then that's where you need to start, why should you be allowed to mark someone for life when you do not have the skills to do it on paper?

Make connections by getting lots of tattoos from quality artists, when you are being tattooed discuss the business and ask their advice.

This business is about dedication and investment, in skin, in pain, in skills.

Start investing!

Steroo

Valued and appreciated feedback lads. Thanks.

bodice ripper

I got an apprenticeship on the first attempt.

I was well into my 20s, I had a degree in fine art, I had worked as a receptionist in a tattoo parlor for years, was heavily tattooed and had an extensive portfolio of work in a variety of media.


i would have had a harder time if I was a 16-22 year old chap who really likes tattoos and has a small portolio of flash, one or two pencil portraits of rockstars/comic book characters they like, a starter kit and enthusiasm. Everyone applying has that.

I knew nobody in tattooing starting off.

bubblebery

bodice ripper wrote: »

I knew nobody in tattooing starting off.

Yet you were heavily tattooed ?

Steroo

How long is the apprenticeship ?

bodice ripper

bubblebery wrote: »

Yet you were heavily tattooed ?

yep. as a customer.

bodice ripper

StephenRooney wrote: »

How long is the apprenticeship ?

there isn't a standard one.

bubblebery

An apprentice position can last for years.... how long before a plumber can be let loose on a bathroom ? It can be paid or unpaid, and you can expect to start of cleaning toilets ( If you cannot keep a toilet spotless why would we trust you with blood borne pathogens) .

If your an amazing artist who spends every last moment drawing and researching tattoos you could be performing simple tattoos on friendly victims in a year or two, but expect at least 3 years before you can call yourself a tattoo artist.

Why not ask your brother to post some photos of his art and we can give him some indication as to his ability and where he needs to be to make this happen!

bubblebery

bodice ripper wrote: »

yep. as a customer.

So you must have known people in the industry, you had a relationship with other tattoo artists, you looked like someone who belonged in a tattoo shop as oppose to someone who likes the idea of being a tattoo artist but has not spent any time around the business.

bodice ripper

bubblebery wrote: »

So you must have known people in the industry, you had a relationship with other tattoo artists, you looked like someone who belonged in a tattoo shop as oppose to someone who likes the idea of being a tattoo artist but has not spent any time around the business.

not really. When I got a job as a receptionist I was unknown to those who hired me. I had no relationship with any tattoo artists.

I think people put way too much belief in this "its who you know" thing. Commitment and work do count.

bubblebery

Sorry, I was referring to your position as a tattooist not a receptionist... Counting your time as a receptionist and an apprentice (which could be seen as the same thing) how long was it before your mentor had you working on paying clients with a machine?

bodice ripper

I was a receptionist for about 3 years and an apprentice for 2 years.

bubblebery

bodice ripper wrote: »

I was a receptionist for about 3 years and an apprentice for 2 years.

I am sure your boss recognized your talent/skills/passion and artistic ability while you were on reception, and I assume somewhere along the line you hoped you could move up to tattooing.

So going back to the OP'S question regarding how long does an apprentice position last, it could be said, 5 years.

I would suggest that if someone has not spent at least this amount of time preparing a portfolio, getting tattooed, working in or hanging out at tattoo studios, they have little hope of getting an apprentice position.

Arawn

bubblebery wrote: »

An apprentice position can last for years.... how long before a plumber can be let loose on a bathroom ? It can be paid or unpaid, and you can expect to start of cleaning toilets ( If you cannot keep a toilet spotless why would we trust you with blood borne pathogens) .

If your an amazing artist who spends every last moment drawing and researching tattoos you could be performing simple tattoos on friendly victims in a year or two, but expect at least 3 years before you can call yourself a tattoo artist.

Why not ask your brother to post some photos of his art and we can give him some indication as to his ability and where he needs to be to make this happen!

4 year apprenticeship starting on 220e a week and raising at least once a year till about 600-700 a week (obviously that isn't the case these days despite the layout)


If you're not willing to do the pig work to become a piercer/tattooist then you shouldn't try to be one.Thast being said I do believe all apprenticeships should be paid to a minimum of social welfare

Steroo

Great feedback everyone. Ill have a good chat with him this weekend. He defo looks like he belongs in a studio and has gotten plenty of tattoos and piercings. Pig work would be no problem he is keen to learn and knows it should take years.

bubblebery

Arawn wrote: »

That being said I do believe all apprenticeships should be paid to a minimum of social welfare

We took our last apprentice on through a government program, they had just left school and we paid them minimum wage. Said apprentice was sacked for a whole list of dishonest behaviours, and we have since heard she is using a kit and tattooing at home...

.We would never do it again,the next apprentice will have to work their but off, even if it is only a few shifts a week part time, proving their worth.

That young girl really did not appreciate the gift we offered her !!

Arawn

bubblebery wrote: »

We took our last apprentice on through a government program, they had just left school and we paid them minimum wage. Said apprentice was sacked for a whole list of dishonest behaviours, and we have since heard she is using a kit and tattooing at home...

.We would never do it again,the next apprentice will have to work their but off, even if it is only a few shifts a week part time, proving their worth.

That young girl really did not appreciate the gift we offered her !!

That's one person, I know people who have been trying for years to get an apprenticeship in piercing and tattooing who would gladly do anything for the job but the fact that it's unpaid makes it impossible especially as you need to live in one of the bigger cities to have any real chance and if you don't you're still expected to do it for free if you get it. I was advised by one piercer to go to birmingham and try get an unpaid one there, how could you seriously move to a different country for around 2 years unpaid while doing a full-time apprenticeship

Besides with the jobsbridge stuff all you'd have to pay was 50e a week which is an average piercing/ less than an hour tattooing. While I do agree some people will not fully accept the opportunity others will work like they are on 5 grand a week just for the chance given to them

bubblebery

Arawn wrote: »

That's one person, I know people who have been trying for years to get an apprenticeship in piercing and tattooing who would gladly do anything for the job but the fact that it's unpaid makes it impossible.

If I wanted to get a black belt in Jiu Jitsu, I would do it on my own time, I would pay for lessons, I would attend classes and immerse myself in the world while still holding down a paying job....

I worked years ago in the dive industry,no pay, lots of experience and great fun. I loved it and all I got was to hang around with people who loved diving while learning the skills...

Arawn

bubblebery wrote: »

If I wanted to get a black belt in Jiu Jitsu, I would do it on my own time, I would pay for lessons, I would attend classes and immerse myself in the world while still holding down a paying job....

I worked years ago in the dive industry,no pay, lots of experience and great fun. I loved it and all I got was to hang around with people who loved diving while learning the skills...

Ah but most people who have a black belt in jiu jitsu started while still children/teenagers and are still living at home. Also after a while you will start to get paid for helping run classes. Also jiu jitsu is not a full time job with no pay, anyone who teaches jiu jitsu full time owns their own gym (ie john kavanagh out of straight blast gym)

when you were working in the dive industery how did you survive with no pay? How did you get to work? pay rent?? You must of had a source of income?


Now days especially money does not go very far. I love tattoos and piercings and have tried to get into piercing but in the south if you take an unpaid apprenticeship you cannot get financial aid which makes it impossible to live, this is the one flaw I see within the system, which I reckon a bit of regulation in Ireland would really help. A way around this would be to have a contract of employment stating that if the apprentice did not see out the time they would be forced to repay a percent of money earned or something like that.


Meh my opinion anyway.


p.s. It's actually good to talk to a studio owner about this

bubblebery

I guess I see it from both sides, my wife was trained by a guy who had been tattooing for 25 years, but he was based 40 miles from us and only helped her because we were friends with his daughter. He said that if we lived near him he would not have even spoken to us, so she was pretty lucky.

We tried helping a customer of ours, someone we liked and trusted, and the only stipulation was that she did not open a studio near us, which she promised she would never do. When we told her we would help her she had tears in her eyes and was so happy. Some time down the line, just after we had given her a huge tattoo as a birthday gift she sent us a text to say she was not coming back as she realised that in time she would like to open a studio in the same area we operate.

That was strike number 2. Two people we helped, one of which we paid, neither of which we needed, who both treated us like dirt...

I completely believe in the law of attraction, if you work hard enough your dreams will come true, but you have to be honest, work hard and focus on your primary goal !

bodice ripper

Arawn wrote: »

That's one person, I know people who have been trying for years to get an apprenticeship in piercing and tattooing who would gladly do anything for the job but the fact that it's unpaid makes it impossible especially as you need to live in one of the bigger cities to have any real chance and if you don't you're still expected to do it for free if you get it.

I worked full-time in a factory doing 12 hour night shifts, and still swung 37 hours a week in my apprenticeship. Impossible my arse.

bubblebery

bodice ripper wrote: »

I worked full-time in a factory doing 12 hour night shifts, and still swung 37 hours a week in my apprenticeship. Impossible my arse.

^^^^Thats dedication, and if you want to be involved in this craft, thats how to do it.

My wife worked full-time in a job that had her in tears at least once a week, she drew every spare moment and spent her days off travelling an 80 mile round trip to the studio.

If you want it bad enough it will happen, but if she and Bodice had to do this, then so can everyone...if they really want it!

Now lets see this artwork ??

Arawn

bodice ripper wrote: »

I worked full-time in a factory doing 12 hour night shifts, and still swung 37 hours a week in my apprenticeship. Impossible my arse.

Correct me if I'm wrong here but were you based in one of the bigger cities where jobs like that are a lot easier to come by than say more rural places?? While I agree it's not impossible outside of cities it does become a lot more difficult.

P_1

bubblebery wrote: »

I guess I see it from both sides, my wife was trained by a guy who had been tattooing for 25 years, but he was based 40 miles from us and only helped her because we were friends with his daughter. He said that if we lived near him he would not have even spoken to us, so she was pretty lucky.

We tried helping a customer of ours, someone we liked and trusted, and the only stipulation was that she did not open a studio near us, which she promised she would never do. When we told her we would help her she had tears in her eyes and was so happy. Some time down the line, just after we had given her a huge tattoo as a birthday gift she sent us a text to say she was not coming back as she realised that in time she would like to open a studio in the same area we operate.

That was strike number 2. Two people we helped, one of which we paid, neither of which we needed, who both treated us like dirt...

I completely believe in the law of attraction, if you work hard enough your dreams will come true, but you have to be honest, work hard and focus on your primary goal !

Wow, I can see why you'd be reluctant to take anyone on having been burnt twice. Have you considered getting the apprentice to sign a contract with a no compete clause before you take them on? Or is it a case of 'fcuk this schit, I've been burnt twice, why the hell would I want to be burnt a third time'?

bodice ripper

Arawn wrote: »

Correct me if I'm wrong here but were you based in one of the bigger cities where jobs like that are a lot easier to come by than say more rural places?? While I agree it's not impossible outside of cities it does become a lot more difficult.

I was living in celbridge and aprprenticing in dublin. So add a commute in there too.

and cost of living is lower outside the cities, so no, I don't think it does get more difficult.

bubblebery

P_1 wrote: »

Wow, I can see why you'd be reluctant to take anyone on having been burnt twice. Have you considered getting the apprentice to sign a contract with a no compete clause before you take them on? Or is it a case of 'fcuk this schit, I've been burnt twice, why the hell would I want to be burnt a third time'?

Would you believe I have the contract sitting in my drawer right now !! I had it drawn up when we took those people on, but I trusted them and felt like I would be insulting them by asking them to complete it...

To be honest I can be a bit of a soft touch, but I do not respond well when people treat me like dirt, especially if I have helped them! I doubt very much that these individuals would open up close to us, I would see that as an attack on my families livelihood and I am pretty sure they know what would happen in that case !

For now we are happy the way things are, we just had a baby and our hands are full !

As for the person who wants to be a tattooist, try watching a movie called The Secret, it may inspire you to try a bit harder in your pursuit!

Arawn

bodice ripper wrote: »

I was living in celbridge and aprprenticing in dublin. So add a commute in there too.

and cost of living is lower outside the cities, so no, I don't think it does get more difficult.

All I can say is fair play! in my personal case I know if I was ever offered a piercing apprenticeship it would have to be paid/jobs bridge so I could afford to live/commute

P_1

bubblebery wrote: »

Would you believe I have the contract sitting in my drawer right now !! I had it drawn up when we took those people on, but I trusted them and felt like I would be insulting them by asking them to complete it...

To be honest I can be a bit of a soft touch, but I do not respond well when people treat me like dirt, especially if I have helped them! I doubt very much that these individuals would open up close to us, I would see that as an attack on my families livelihood and I am pretty sure they know what would happen in that case !

TBH you really can't afford to be a soft touch when you're in business. Fearing that you'd be insulting people shouldn't really come into it (much easier to say than do I know) when you're putting the bread on the table.

bubblebery

P_1 wrote: »

TBH you really can't afford to be a soft touch when you're in business. Fearing that you'd be insulting people shouldn't really come into it (much easier to say than do I know) when you're putting the bread on the table.

Very, very true. People assume that if you run a business you must be rolling in cash, which is rarely the case, but we do ok, so if I can help someone I will, but never again will I get myself into a situation like those described, I should know better!

Dr. Jonathan Crane

bubblebery wrote: »

We tried helping a customer of ours, someone we liked and trusted, and the only stipulation was that she did not open a studio near us, which she promised she would never do. When we told her we would help her she had tears in her eyes and was so happy. Some time down the line, just after we had given her a huge tattoo as a birthday gift she sent us a text to say she was not coming back as she realised that in time she would like to open a studio in the same area we operate.!

Jesus, if anyone has the right to turn down every person who comes through the door wanting to be a tattoo artist it's you. Did she ever open a studio?

bubblebery

Dr. Jonathan Crane wrote: »

Jesus, if anyone has the right to turn down every person who comes through the door wanting to be a tattoo artist it's you. Did she ever open a studio?

Not yet, and to be honest I just stay focused on offering the most enjoyable tattoo experience possible and really do not think that much about the whole situation.

We had a girl come into the studio a few weeks ago asking for a position. We were put off by the fact that she had tattooed her own hands, with what could only be described as a mess...

The fact that her mother had an inverted cross tattooed between her eyes was the deciding factor... that woman freaked me out :eek:

Steroo

My bro is going to email me some pics to put up over the weekend!

Steroo

StephenRooney wrote: »

My bro is going to email me some pics to put up over the weekend!

Few pics

SolvableKnave

That Prodigy one is brilliant, and the small Phil Lynott one is pretty cool too.

Esoteric_

If I'm totally honest, he'd need better art work than that. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with it, but if you look at the likes of Danny from Tallaght Ink (I am NOT a fan of Tallaght Ink, for the record!), he has some fantastic, detailed, intricate art work.

Honestly, they don't look tattoo-worthy in my opinion. They look like someone with a decent hand with a biro doing some quick sketches. :-/

FoxyVixen

I'd be likely to agree with Esoteric.

They're good drawings, but that's where it stops. I wouldn't want them tattooed on me.

He'd need to clean up his line work a little bit more. Also, with the type of talented people already being refused apprenticeships, he'd need to ensure there's no negative space left on the sketchpad to be on their level. Every piece of the paper needs to be incorporated. Some study into shading too. The first picture isn't bad, but alot of growth is needed.

He should look into doing an art course with a nearby VEC if it's possible. That way he can learn about the differant types of media and how to work them. A friend of mine is doing one now at the moment and she swears by how much she's learned at it.

Hope I don't come across as negative, merely constructive criticism. I enjoy drawing in my spare time myself so I know how it feels if someone looks at you sketch and says "meh"

niallam

Ok pics for leaving cert art but that's about it for me. They're more like doodles on your science book than something I'd see as a tattoo.
I think he needs a lot more drawing practice.

Just on that point someone else made, I'm 34, I have a full time job. If I wanted to become a black belt in a martial art not only would I have to do it in my own time and with an expert but Id have to pay them to train me...
Any tattoo artist that would be willing to train someone for free would be a decent person, any person that would expect to get paid for it is crazy.
It's a very hard job to train for, you can't just start tattooing from your first day, hard to make a comparison with another job, heart surgery maybe?

Your brother would want to get himself tattood properly and quite a few times, see how other artists work, how they set up, the way they tackle different tattoos, ask questions, see if he can hang around when they're working.
Every tattoo shop has hang arounders lol

endacl

bubblebery wrote: »

The fact that her mother had an inverted cross tattooed between her eyes was the deciding factor... that woman freaked me out :eek:

Honestly, I'd be more put off by the fact that she brought the mammy at all. If it was a job interview in a bank and she brought the mammy along, she'd be laughed out of the building. If she's not self assured enough to go along and speak for herself I wouldn't let her clean toilets, let alone ink somebody for life...

Arawn

niallam wrote: »

Ok pics for leaving cert art but that's about it for me. They're more like doodles on your science book than something I'd see as a tattoo.
I think he needs a lot more drawing practice.

Just on that point someone else made, I'm 34, I have a full time job. If I wanted to become a black belt in a martial art not only would I have to do it in my own time and with an expert but Id have to pay them to train me...
Any tattoo artist that would be willing to train someone for free would be a decent person, any person that would expect to get paid for it is crazy.
It's a very hard job to train for, you can't just start tattooing from your first day, hard to make a comparison with another job, heart surgery maybe?

Your brother would want to get himself tattood properly and quite a few times, see how other artists work, how they set up, the way they tackle different tattoos, ask questions, see if he can hang around when they're working.
Every tattoo shop has hang arounders lol

Just on the black belt bit, as a student you are not expected to pitch in running the gym, as an apprentice you are expected to help run the studio.

niallam

Arawn wrote: »

Just on the black belt bit, as a student you are not expected to pitch in running the gym, as an apprentice you are expected to help run the studio.

A good student helps out. I was part of a martial arts club and we all helped out, any fight nights we would be there early and long afterwards cleaning up. We supported all events and quiz and fight nights etc. if there was painting to be done we'd be in on after hours.
If you treat it as only a 2 hour class that's your choice but you'll never feel part of it, same in the tattoo studio. An artist will never respect you unless your willing to do what has to be done, we all know respect is earned

What I'm saying is an apprentice is the same as a good student, they're not there to run the business but they are there to do more than learn

Arawn

niallam wrote: »

A good student helps out. I was part of a martial arts club and we all helped out, any fight nights we would be there early and long afterwards cleaning up. We supported all events and quiz and fight nights etc. if there was painting to be done we'd be in on after hours.
If you treat it as only a 2 hour class that's your choice but you'll never feel part of it, same in the tattoo studio. An artist will never respect you unless your willing to do what has to be done, we all know respect is earned

What I'm saying is an apprentice is the same as a good student, they're not there to run the business but they are there to do more than learn

I know this but I bet you were't there 8 hours a day everyday as an apprentice to be. Helping out here and there is grand.

niallam

Arawn wrote: »

I know this but I bet you were't there 8 hours a day everyday as an apprentice to be. Helping out here and there is grand.

But if my goal was to change careers and be an instructor myself I would be there 8 hours a day if I didn't have a full time job.
Does the OP's brother have a full time job already?

Steroo

Thanks for the advice and constructive feedback!

FoxyVixen

Let us know how he gets on and if he's got more questions not to hesitate to ask here.

Other than that, I forgot to add that it'd be a good idea for him to develope a portfolio using differant techniques (of either media or style of drawing) around a similiar theme. That'd show a nice flow throughout his portfolio then. If you search boards for NCAD applications, there's some great advice given for those going onto fine art degrees. He could bounce off that and see where it lands him? I've taken some inspiration from that.

Also check out deviantart and imaginefx websites. Realistically the top artists there wouldn't be such a stones throw away from the type of apprentices approaching studios here I've spent hours on those

Lastly, just because one studio may turn him down, doesn't mean they all will. Art is in the eye of the beholder, so someone may like his style - once he works on it a little more

Try and try again...........it is NOT an easy buisness to get into.

bodice ripper

Arawn wrote: »

Just on the black belt bit, as a student you are not expected to pitch in running the gym, as an apprentice you are expected to help run the studio.

you're not getting a belt, you are getting a trade you can support yourself with. Also, d'you think you might learn something relevant running the studio?

Arawn

bodice ripper wrote: »

you're not getting a belt, you are getting a trade you can support yourself with. Also, d'you think you might learn something relevant running the studio?

Any other trade you get paid to be there while learning.What makes tattooing immune to paying apprentices?

Star Lord

Arawn wrote: »

Any other trade you get paid to be there while learning.What makes tattooing immune to paying apprentices?

There are lots of jobs/companies where people have to do unpaid internships just to get their foot in the door.

niallam

DamoElDiablo wrote: »

There are lots of jobs/companies where people have to do unpaid internships just to get their foot in the door.

Exactly, same as if any of us here wanted to start studying something new, chances are we'll have to pay a hefty amount if money to attend evening classes in Dublin business school or somewhere similar.
tattooing is a very unique job, you could get 600 points in your LC and still not have what it takes. Unfortunate it's going to cost the person themselves if they really want to learn.

FoxyVixen

But in college a good portion of people can avail of a grant as well as working part time - some skipping the odd lecture to get a few paid hours of work catching up on the course later.

There's more available to college/night course than say to an unpaid internship asking approx 40hrs a week. Say if you can't get a paid internship for a college course here, you can hop on the boat and get it across the water or in Oz.

I've always thought that any internship irregardless of level/trade/buisness SHOULD get at least minimum wage. I know nothing comes free in life, but in this day and age very few can get by without some money coming in.

Yes it's a trade you're working towards and so I can understand how some say it should be unpaid. But doesn't this then allow said trainee to pull the dole drawing resources from a seriously inadequate government. That dole money could go towards a more beneficial target such as care assistants.