Irishman among hostages taken by militants in Algeria

RobitTV

Latest: An Irish national is among a number of foreign workers kidnapped by Islamic militants in Algeria.

It is understood the 36-year-old married man, from Northern Ireland, is among a group of 41 workers taken captive during a raid on a gas field in southern Algeria.

The militants entered the In Amenas facility, located close to the border with Libya, in a dawn raid, kidnapping the foreigner workers and killing two others.

There are unconfirmed reports that the deceased men are French and British nationals.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2013/0116/breaking28.html

Hope they are all ok wonder what response governments will take?

Maybe time to send SAS in and Algerian army stand aside?

seamus

Bit early for the black ops tbh. Give negotiation a chance. They've too many hostages to maintain control over. Chances are they'll release all but the French nationals.

bido

The only hope is the SAS ,not the French.

Amirani

I'd like if we sent the ARW in a situation like this to rescue an Irish national, even in conjunction with an SAS team.

mike65

A bunch of Algerians have apparently made a successful flee for freedom from the gas facility but I can;t help but think they have been "allowed" to escape (could be wrong but it would suit the Islamists to be rid of fellow Muslims at a time like this).

mike65

Sounds like Algerian military have attacked wholesale with most at the facility likely to be dead.

from guardian

According to Mauritania's ANI news agency, a spokesperson for the kidnappers says that seven western hostages are still alive: three Belgians, two Americans, one Japanese and one Briton.

seamus

Numbers are all over the place, Reuters reporting 180 hostages have been rescued

Quotes from an escapee seem to indicate that the Algerian army have decided to just bomb the **** out of the facility and to hell with the hostages. Not good.

jmayo

bido wrote: »

The only hope is the SAS ,not the French.

Ehh why ?

NiallSparky wrote: »

I'd like if we sent the ARW in a situation like this to rescue an Irish national, even in conjunction with an SAS team.

Who ffs.
Well they would have to thumb a lift from someone to get them there.

Anyway it is all a moot point since it looks like the Algerians decided bombing the place was the best solution.

SeanW

jmayo wrote: »

Anyway it is all a moot point since it looks like the Algerians decided bombing the place was the best solution.

It's not like that scum were ever going to let the hostages live anyway ...

Jonny7

jmayo wrote: »

Anyway it is all a moot point since it looks like the Algerians decided bombing the place was the best solution.

Someone in Algeria must have known the outcome was going to be the death of the hostages. However, in a very Machavelian way, when this storm blows over, no terrorists, or hostage takers are ever going to choose Algeria as a destination.

Eggy Baby!

What were the motives of the hostage takers? As a reaction to the Malian intervention?

Amirani

jmayo wrote: »

Who ffs.
Well they would have to thumb a lift from someone to get them there.
.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Army_Ranger_Wing

seamus

Eggy Baby! wrote: »

What were the motives of the hostage takers? As a reaction to the Malian intervention?

According to them it was.

Though according to the media reports, the guy who led the kidnappers had a long history of organised crime along with hundreds of millions in proceeds from kidnapping ransoms, which he then funnelled back into Islamic terrorism (no doubt with a nice healthy slice for himself).

From the sounds of it, a suicide mission wasn't his style so maybe they thought they could extract good funds from a big rich oil company, but bit off more than they could chew.

jmayo

Jonny7 wrote: »

Someone in Algeria must have known the outcome was going to be the death of the hostages. However, in a very Machavelian way, when this storm blows over, no terrorists, or hostage takers are ever going to choose Algeria as a destination.

I think that was the idea of the Algerian military.
The message is both we don't mess negotiating with terrorists, we don't risk our own soliders and we don't particularly care if some hostages die along side the terrorists.

NiallSparky wrote: »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Army_Ranger_Wing

Yes I know who they are and that some of them have been on secondment or linked with other special forces.
But AFAIK they as a unit have never carried out a major operation and as I said they don't have the capabilities to even get to and from the location in the first place.
Or do you envisage them driving their in the ford pickup or using one of the CASA's ?

BTW there is a nice forum for this type of discussion over in the military forum.

long range shooter

jmayo wrote: »

I think that was the idea of the Algerian military.
The message is both we don't mess negotiating with terrorists, we don't risk our own soliders and we don't particularly care if some hostages die along side the terrorists.



Yes I know who they are and that some of them have been on secondment or linked with other special forces.
But AFAIK they as a unit have never carried out a major operation and as I said they don't have the capabilities to even get to the location in the first place.
Or do you envisage them driving their in the ford pickup or using one of the CASA's ?

BTW there is a nice forum for this type of discussion over in the military forum.

Or leave it to trigger happy Algerian special forces,that bombs everything in their way,including hostages.:rolleyes:

walshb

Sure why would the Alegrians care if a few western hostages die due to their gung ho bombing of the facility? Algeria's oil and gas are very very important, and they cannot allow terrorists to jeopardise this. They are sending out a very strong and unequivocal message. To hell with other governments and their possible solution to this problem.

gallag

NiallSparky wrote: »

I'd like if we sent the ARW in a situation like this to rescue an Irish national, even in conjunction with an SAS team.

That would be putting nationalistic notions ahead of strategy. Has the ARW ever been involved in an operation like this? Or do you believe being irish is the only qualification needed? Their training, equipment and skill set is not up to standard for these rolls, they could of course be trained, tough guys no doubt capable, just ireland dont really spend much money on these things. If it was your loved one I think you would be happy with the ARW staying home, any way, I dont think air lingus fly out there :-)

jmayo

long range shooter wrote: »

Or leave it to trigger happy Algerian special forces,that bombs everything in their way,including hostages.:rolleyes:

Oh FFS.
Are you, like the other walter mitty type, seriously saying that we should or even could send in the IDF Rangers to rescue hostages ?

The Algerians laid down a marker for any future terrorists or attackers of oil/gas installations.

Maybe they consider western hostages just as expendable as the West has considered non western hostages.
Or perhaps you forget how non westerners were left sitting in the desert when Saddam invaded Kuwait.

WakeUp

gallag wrote: »

That would be putting nationalistic notions ahead of strategy. Has the ARW ever been involved in an operation like this? Or do you believe being irish is the only qualification needed? Their training, equipment and skill set is not up to standard for these rolls, they could of course be trained, tough guys no doubt capable, just ireland dont really spend much money on these things. If it was your loved one I think you would be happy with the ARW staying home, any way, I dont think air lingus fly out there :-)

As opposed to those Algerian clowns who clearly hadnt a fcking clue what they are doing. The ARW are basically a combination of Rangers/Spec ops and Delta all rolled into one anywhere they have been they have been highly regarded. Give me them any day of the week over those Algerian bafoons. Our Rangers operate under the radar the way it should be they are highly skilled badasses a much better bet than those ejits in the Algerian army. You obviously havent a clue about the ARW - "training equipment and skill set" seriously are you being serious?...

WakeUp

jmayo wrote: »

Oh FFS.
Are you, like the other walter mitty type, seriously saying that we should or even could send in the IDF Rangers to rescue hostages ?

The Algerians laid down a marker for any future terrorists or attackers of oil/gas installations.

Maybe they consider western hostages just as expendable as the West has considered non western hostages.
Or perhaps you forget how non westerners were left sitting in the desert when Saddam invaded Kuwait.

Laid down a marker?? they made a cluster fook of it the Americans offered their spec ops teams am sure the British offered the SAS and were turned down so those idiots "could lay down a marker".Nonsense.

gallag

WakeUp wrote: »

As opposed to those Algerian clowns who clearly hadnt a fcking clue what they are doing. The ARW are basically a combination of Rangers/Spec ops and Delta all rolled into one anywhere they have been they have been highly regarded. Give me them any day of the week over those Algerian bafoons. Our Rangers operate under the radar the way it should be they are highly skilled badasses a much better bet than those ejits in the Algerian army. You obviously havent a clue about the ARW - "training equipment and skill set" seriously are you being serious?...

So what operations have the ARW took the lead onthat make you believe they would be the men for this particular job? And what equipment do they have, have they even a dc etc to get over there?

WakeUp

gallag wrote: »

So what operations have the ARW took the lead onthat make you believe they would be the men for this particular job? And what equipment do they have, have they even a dc etc to get over there?

Well you seem to know it all and its quite clear you havent a god damn clue so I dont see how you can make statements like you did. You can start here.
http://www.independent.ie/world-news/africa/crack-troops-rescue-hostages-from-gunmen-in-daring-raid-187696.html

gallag

WakeUp wrote: »

Well you seem to know it all and its quite clear you havent a god damn clue so I dont see how you can make statements like you did. You can start here.
http://www.independent.ie/world-news/africa/crack-troops-rescue-hostages-from-gunmen-in-daring-raid-187696.html

Well, I guess if there is ever a time when a few untrained fools with ak-47's lock them selvs in a 40 foot container that needs surrounded we know who to call, how the hell is that a similar senireo to a gas plant? There is a reason why the ARW would never be considered for that op.

John Mongo

gallag wrote: »

That would be putting nationalistic notions ahead of strategy. Has the ARW ever been involved in an operation like this? Or do you believe being irish is the only qualification needed? Their training, equipment and skill set is not up to standard for these rolls, they could of course be trained, tough guys no doubt capable, just ireland dont really spend much money on these things. If it was your loved one I think you would be happy with the ARW staying home, any way, I dont think air lingus fly out there :-)

I'd imagine you don't have the slightest clue about their training, their full range of equipment or skill sets. They're good enough that when they competed in the ISC this year in America, the only sniper pair capable of beating them, came from the Army Marksmanship Unit. That's a competition where they're competing against top snipers from SOF units and regualr units, most of whom have seen combat but yeah... They're not much use at all.

If the Wing were sent in, they'd be capable of doing the job.

As for "There is a reason why the ARW would never be considered for that Op", I fully agree there is a reason. The reason being our Government would never have the balls to send them.

jmayo

WakeUp wrote: »

As opposed to those Algerian clowns who clearly hadnt a fcking clue what they are doing. The ARW are basically a combination of Rangers/Spec ops and Delta all rolled into one anywhere they have been they have been highly regarded. Give me them any day of the week over those Algerian bafoons. Our Rangers operate under the radar the way it should be they are highly skilled badasses a much better bet than those ejits in the Algerian army. You obviously havent a clue about the ARW - "training equipment and skill set" seriously are you being serious?...

Well I see all the Walter Mittys are over here today. :rolleyes:

And how the flying fook are they going to get to and from the location.
What local knowledge and contacts do Irish forces have in the area ?
The only Westerners with that kind of local knowledge would be the French.

WakeUp wrote: »

Laid down a marker?? they made a cluster fook of it the Americans offered their spec ops teams am sure the British offered the SAS and were turned down so those idiots "could lay down a marker".Nonsense.

Yes they laid down a marker that they couldn't give two fooks who a terrorist grabs, they will be attacked in no uncertain terms and if that means air strikes then so be it.
End of story.

And it was probably Algerian military rather than government that decided that.
Oh and before you right off the military of any country, these guys were figthing a very bitter dirty civil war for over a decade.

How do you know what external forces were offered or are you working for an intelligence organisation.
Even though relations between US and Algeria have improved over the last number of years and they have had military contacts, they would not necessarily be seeing inviting in the US military to their country.

WakeUp wrote: »

Well you seem to know it all and its quite clear you havent a god damn clue so I dont see how you can make statements like you did. You can start here.
http://www.independent.ie/world-news/africa/crack-troops-rescue-hostages-from-gunmen-in-daring-raid-187696.html

Pot kettle comes to mind.
In that case they were already in Liberia, they had backup of UN group behind them and they weren't dealing with a huge installation.
But go on knock yourself out with info from a rag like the indo.

dvcireland

jmayo wrote: »

I think that was the idea of the Algerian military.
The message is both we don't mess negotiating with terrorists, we don't risk our own soliders and we don't particularly care if some hostages die along side the terrorists.



Yes I know who they are and that some of them have been on secondment or linked with other special forces.
But AFAIK they as a unit have never carried out a major operation and as I said they don't have the capabilities to even get to and from the location in the first place.
Or do you envisage them driving their in the ford pickup or using one of the CASA's ?

BTW there is a nice forum for this type of discussion over in the military forum.

The message is both we don't mess negotiating with terrorists, we don't risk our own soliders and we don't particularly care if some hostages die along side the terrorists.

this was the sentiment expressed by Fmr jihadist Noman Benotman speaking on Newsnight last night

Jonny7

dvcireland wrote: »

The message is both we don't mess negotiating with terrorists, we don't risk our own soliders and we don't particularly care if some hostages die along side the terrorists.

this was the sentiment expressed by Fmr jihadist Noman Benotman speaking on Newsnight last night

*except if relatives of Algeria's upper echelon were taken hostage rather than expendable oil workers.

the_syco

http://news.sky.com/story/1039636/freed-british-hostages-praise-algerian-army

http://news.sky.com/story/1039599/algeria-hostage-had-explosives-around-neck

Seems the Algerian army did a decent job. Unlike the usual fcuks ready to die for their cause, the kidnappers in this case seemed to have planed to live, and thus were heavily armed. Those who died may have had some explosives around their neck like the above. Poor bastards

WakeUp

gallag wrote: »

Well, I guess if there is ever a time when a few untrained fools with ak-47's lock them selvs in a 40 foot container that needs surrounded we know who to call, how the hell is that a similar senireo to a gas plant? There is a reason why the ARW would never be considered for that op.

You know nothing about the ARW and you didnt even read the link I posted or perhaps you mixed things up. But one thing I can say for certain is you havent a clue about the ARW nor spec ops in general. Our Rangers are highly regarded all around the world the Aussie SAS couldnt speak highly enough of them when they teamed up in East Timor the Aussie commander going as far as to say they are the best spec ops he has ever worked with. Take your unionist the Irish are crap at everything hat off, the above post is condescending spec ops train for all sorts of situations the fact you are even questioning their ability shows your lack of knowledge.

SeanW

It's been proven time and time again that when confronted with radical Islam you have two choices:

1. Surrender
2. Fight back

Simple as, really.

long range shooter

jmayo wrote: »

Oh FFS.
Are you, like the other walter mitty type, seriously saying that we should or even could send in the IDF Rangers to rescue hostages ?

The Algerians laid down a marker for any future terrorists or attackers of oil/gas installations.

Maybe they consider western hostages just as expendable as the West has considered non western hostages.
Or perhaps you forget how non westerners were left sitting in the desert when Saddam invaded Kuwait.

No i say it could be solved in a much better way,with a coalition of special forces.
There was many nationalities involved in this tragic terrorist attack.
There was Americans,British,Norwegians,Japanese etc,and they all have excellent special forces units with much more experience in this kind of operations.;)

jmayo

long range shooter wrote: »

No i say it could be solved in a much better way,with a coalition of special forces.
There was many nationalities involved in this tragic terrorist attack.
There was Americans,British,Norwegians,Japanese etc,and they all have excellent special forces units with much more experience in this kind of operations.;)

Firstly this is Algeria and like it or not they have a right to deal with security or criminal issues themselves.
Yes the people involved may be from all the above nations, but how would they like it if some other state demanded to go into their territory on a military operation ?
Why do people in the West assume they can damm well go and do as they like elsewhere in the world ?

Some people need to get the fact that Western powers can't just always wander into a country and do as they wish, even if it is to rescue their own citizens.
If a US, British, etc aircraft went into Algerian airspace, without Algerian permission, to drop off special forces then the Algerians were within their rights to shoot them down.
Any operation carried out in Algeria would have to have Algerian support.
Either that or start a bloody war.

Also any operation would need local support and knowledge.

Where to we start with the idea of a coalition of special forces?
The more disparate groups involved the more chance of fook ups.
It has even happened when all the different units are from the same country never mind different ones.

Besides the Norwegians would turn up late after everyone was slaughtered. :rolleyes:

JustinDee

jmayo wrote: »

Besides the Norwegians would turn up late after everyone was slaughtered. :rolleyes:

Norwegian military are a vital element in NATO forces. Highly skilled special forces group also.

If Algerians do nothing, then don't be surprised if specialists are called in to protect their own. Lessons from Munich in 1972 still relevant today.

SamHarris

long range shooter wrote: »

No i say it could be solved in a much better way,with a coalition of special forces.
There was many nationalities involved in this tragic terrorist attack.
There was Americans,British,Norwegians,Japanese etc,and they all have excellent special forces units with much more experience in this kind of operations.;)

Trying to co ordinate between many special forces, thereby diluting every one of their effectivness is hardly a good idea merely because the nationality of one or the other is involved.

Id like to think it could have been solved in a better way, however these real life situations rarely work out like in the movies.

Negotiation is a non starter, it is only ever used to buy time for an oppurtune moment to interevene with force.

I do agree though, the extent of the fatalities and the speed at which it degenerated into a full on gunfight, coupled with how long the gunfight went on for, suggests to me that it was a matter of 'go in and clean out'. The hostages were at best secondary.

SamHarris

WakeUp wrote: »

You know nothing about the ARW and you didnt even read the link I posted or perhaps you mixed things up. But one thing I can say for certain is you havent a clue about the ARW nor spec ops in general. Our Rangers are highly regarded all around the world the Aussie SAS couldnt speak highly enough of them when they teamed up in East Timor the Aussie commander going as far as to say they are the best spec ops he has ever worked with. Take your unionist the Irish are crap at everything hat off, the above post is condescending spec ops train for all sorts of situations the fact you are even questioning their ability shows your lack of knowledge.

Sounds like someone is just upset that the Irish special forces are not exactly top tier, at least amoungst Western nations. Its about as much of a fact as these things can be. You can look up any number of analysists on the subject, indeed all things military.

But lets just think about it logically. What are the criteria you would use to decide what SF are 'better'? I mean besides what the Australian SAS said after a peace keeping mission and whether or not they are Irish, of course.

Well equipment and technology for one, right? Wouldnt know a great deal about this myself, and couldnt be bothered looking it up because I seriously doubt I would see anything particularly surprising. Anyone with any knowledge of military affairs would be aware the US dominate this sector, in nearly all regards, and that our military has no where near the budget to compete to any great extent with any number of other nations in this area. If anyone knows of any power armour or especially deadly new firearms our forces are issued with that would greatly change the balance on this, please do sound off.

Probably the size of the pool of people in the military they can chose from, as in how picky can they be with their candidates, and how many prospective candidates get in (again, a rough aproximation of how picky and tough they can be). These are questions that have real answers, and to give you an idea of how selective a top tier force would have to be - the SEALs are considered to have the most stringent standards in this regard with 10% of those applying coming through basic training. These would also all be combat veterans, a must for even application to most top tier forces. Thats from the largest Navy on earth. Clearly, orders of magnitude beyond what Ireland COULD do, let alone what they should or are doing.

Tied to this but different would be training, hours spent, rounds fired, variety of enviroments and combat excercises employed, even things like facilities available. Again, wouldnt know enough about this and if anyone knows anything in particular that would massivley change the equation, please go ahead.

An obvious one is experience. Lets be very honest, you would be hard pressed to find a SF with less epxerience than ours. The most experienced is obviously the US, with 40 missions a night being carried out by SF during the Afghan and Iraqi wars. That is to say that in one night they get vastly more combat experience than the Irish forces have had since their creation. This improves both the individual personel and the doctrine of the force as a whole.

Im sure I could think of a few more off the top of my head, but these are obviously all very imporatant, and none that I know of we compete in any real way in.

When you are coming up with an opinion about something like this, particularly when you are going to become furious when people disagree with it, it really is a good idea to think about WHY you feel the way you do. If your using a particular set of criteria, try applying them elswhere and see if you feel the same way. If you do not, its obviously the politics and not actual logical thought that is forcing you to the conclusion you reach.

Although I think Ive heard this particular myth dozens of time during my life, its as though we believe being Irish confers an enormous tactical advantage to troops.

gallag

SamHarris wrote: »

Sounds like someone is just upset that the Irish special forces are not exactly top tier, at least amoungst Western nations. Its about as much of a fact as these things can be. You can look up any number of analysists on the subject, indeed all things military.

But lets just think about it logically. What are the criteria you would use to decide what SF are 'better'? I mean besides what the Australian SAS said after a peace keeping mission and whether or not they are Irish, of course.

Well equipment and technology for one, right? Wouldnt know a great deal about this myself, and couldnt be bothered looking it up because I seriously doubt I would see anything particularly surprising. Anyone with any knowledge of military affairs would be aware the US dominate this sector, in nearly all regards, and that our military has no where near the budget to compete to any great extent with any number of other nations in this area. If anyone knows of any power armour or especially deadly new firearms our forces are issued with that would greatly change the balance on this, please do sound off.

Probably the size of the pool of people in the military they can chose from, as in how picky can they be with their candidates, and how many prospective candidates get in (again, a rough aproximation of how picky and tough they can be). These are questions that have real answers, and to give you an idea of how selective a top tier force would have to be - the SEALs are considered to have the most stringent standards in this regard with 10% of those applying coming through basic training. These would also all be combat veterans, a must for even application to most top tier forces. Thats from the largest Navy on earth. Clearly, orders of magnitude beyond what Ireland COULD do, let alone what they should or are doing.

Tied to this but different would be training, hours spent, rounds fired, variety of enviroments and combat excercises employed, even things like facilities available. Again, wouldnt know enough about this and if anyone knows anything in particular that would massivley change the equation, please go ahead.

An obvious one is experience. Lets be very honest, you would be hard pressed to find a SF with less epxerience than ours. The most experienced is obviously the US, with 40 missions a night being carried out by SF during the Afghan and Iraqi wars. That is to say that in one night they get vastly more combat experience than the Irish forces have had since their creation. This improves both the individual personel and the doctrine of the force as a whole.

Im sure I could think of a few more off the top of my head, but these are obviously all very imporatant, and none that I know of we compete in any real way in.

When you are coming up with an opinion about something like this, particularly when you are going to become furious when people disagree with it, it really is a good idea to think about WHY you feel the way you do. If your using a particular set of criteria, try applying them elswhere and see if you feel the same way. If you do not, its obviously the politics and not actual logical thought that is forcing you to the conclusion you reach.

Although I think Ive heard this particular myth dozens of time during my life, its as though we believe being Irish confers an enormous tactical advantage to troops.

This is pretty much what I ment, I was not being anti irish, I even said I believed they were tough guys and more than capable of being top teir SF its just the lack of military spending from the irish government that holdd them back, if they had the same toys, training etc as seals, SAS etc they would be every bit as capable. Anyway, I was not trying to put the ARW down, just replying to the guy that thought the ARW should deal with every irish hostage around the world.

jmayo

JustinDee wrote: »

Norwegian military are a vital element in NATO forces. Highly skilled special forces group also.

Yes I know the Norwegians are in NATO and one area they would be highly capable would be in Artic/Mountain warfare.
That is where AFAIK Royal Marine Commandos have trained for many years.

The swipe about being late was a link to fact they (or the police special response teams or the decision makers) didn't get their ass in gear when Anders Behring Breivik decided to go on a killing spree on an island.

JustinDee wrote: »

If Algerians do nothing, then don't be surprised if specialists are called in to protect their own. Lessons from Munich in 1972 still relevant today.

Yes the oil companies can hire security staff (i.e mercenaries), but don't expect the governments to provide bodies (i.e. military personnel) to guard oil companies' resources.
That would not sit well with the home electorates.
See for instance the debates in the commons where there is a worry that Cameron will committ British troops to yet another theatre of oeprations in North Africa.

The main western player in North Africa is and will be France.
They have had major military involvement in Chad and now Mali.
They of course probably get intelligence and other covert support from the US.

Britain has no major historical links with or emigration from that area and would probably be of little use.

The thing people need to remember is that Algeria is not some mickey mouse Southern African basket case civil war riddled country or a God forsaken hole like Afghanistan where the West can go in and do as they like once they transfer money to the right Swiss bank account.
Any foreign mercenaries providing security for oil companies will have to operate with the permission of the government and military.
I actually think they might welcome them since they are in the firing line if it goes pear shaped and they are paid for by the oil companies.

long range shooter

jmayo wrote: »

Firstly this is Algeria and like it or not they have a right to deal with security or criminal issues themselves.
Yes the people involved may be from all the above nations, but how would they like it if some other state demanded to go into their territory on a military operation ?
Why do people in the West assume they can damm well go and do as they like elsewhere in the world ?

Some people need to get the fact that Western powers can't just always wander into a country and do as they wish, even if it is to rescue their own citizens.
If a US, British, etc aircraft went into Algerian airspace, without Algerian permission, to drop off special forces then the Algerians were within their rights to shoot them down.
Any operation carried out in Algeria would have to have Algerian support.
Either that or start a bloody war.

Also any operation would need local support and knowledge.

Where to we start with the idea of a coalition of special forces?
The more disparate groups involved the more chance of fook ups.
It has even happened when all the different units are from the same country never mind different ones.

Besides the Norwegians would turn up late after everyone was slaughtered. :rolleyes:

What i meant was a coalition with the Algerians???
Not to invade Algeria.:rolleyes:
And yes local knowledge is vital,but so is intelligence gathering with drones and satellite images,and i dont think Algeria have that kind of equipment and experience.
And with 50 dead and many more missing,i cant say it was and sucsessful operation.
And coalitions of special forces worked fine in Iraq,Afghanistan,Kosovo and Somalia why shouldnt it work in Algeria??.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Enduring_Freedom

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Task_Force_K-Bar

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Anaconda

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Jacana

And since you are critizing Norwegian special forces being late??
I would love to see the reaction time to the Irish ARW if we put Breivik on Aran Island:rolleyes:

Manic Moran

I don't think they training of ARW is really open to question, just the capability. It seems that the hostage takers were numerous, well armed, and in an environment conducive to the defense. There are only so many ARW personnel, and they are only equipped to a certain level. Probably the most important piece of equipment that could be brought to the fight by the US would be a radio. Ontheother end of that radio is the full weight of the US military support structure with incredibly expensive and capable equipment that they are used to working with which, even if the Norwegians could afford them, are likely too classified for any other nation to know about. Coalition special forces won't work either. What makes SF truly S is the teamwork and common understanding gained from countless hours training together. A hodgepodge of countries, worse mainly speaking different languages, are not going to create a cohesive fighting force at the tactical level.

Ultimately, even the best special forces have their limits and can only take on so much. The Entebbe hostage rescue, for example, was of such a scale that regular air force and Army units were used. Israeli special forces simply didn't have the capability to take on a job of that size.

It is quite possible that the Algerians took a look at the situation, decided that trying to be subtle about it just wasn't going to work, and that a conventional assault had the best chance. Maybe they even asked the French or Americans if they could do it, they may well have said "no." No reason to believe they were wrong.

JustinDee

jmayo wrote: »

Yes I know the Norwegians are in NATO and one area they would be highly capable would be in Artic/Mountain warfare.
That is where AFAIK Royal Marine Commandos have trained for many years.

The swipe about being late was a link to fact they (or the police special response teams or the decision makers) didn't get their ass in gear when Anders Behring Breivik decided to go on a killing spree on an island

The point of the bombings in the city centre was to divert. They diverted. Nobody knew what was going on, especially in Utoeya because it is a distance away from Oslo and is relatively isolated.

On my point regarding bringing in outsiders to assail or rescue, nobody said Algeria was a backward country. Munich wasn't in a backward country either. Had the Germans back then allowed experienced personnel to act, the outcome might have been far more different.

Manic Moran

JustinDee wrote: »

The point of the bombings in the city centre was to divert. They diverted. Nobody knew what was going on, especially in Utoeya because it is a distance away from Oslo and is relatively isolated.

On my point regarding bringing in outsiders to assail or rescue, nobody said Algeria was a backward country. Munich wasn't in a backward country either. Had the Germans back then allowed experienced personnel to act, the outcome might have been far more different.

Only way to get experience is to not let other people do your job.

long range shooter

Manic Moran wrote: »

Only way to get experience is to not let other people do your job.

Pretty sure the sailors from the Russian submarine Kursk would disagree with you there.

JustinDee

Manic Moran wrote: »

Only way to get experience is to not let other people do your job.

That's what I was actually saying. The German police who pulled out of storming the building in the athletes' accommodation were not specialists and had no assault training. Two of the three snipers situated on ATC tower at the airfield didn't even have appropriate or sights.
A trained unit that was prevented from deployment and could have been there in four hours would have yielded different results and there would not have been 11 deaths (9 of which at airfield). The hostage-takers wouldn't have made it to the airfield and the three captured would not have been assisted out of the country later on following the Lufthansa charade.

Manic Moran

JustinDee wrote: »

That's what I was actually saying. The German police who pulled out of storming the building in the athletes' accommodation were not specialists and had no assault training. Two of the three snipers situated on ATC tower at the airfield didn't even have appropriate or sights.

This is true.

A trained unit that was prevented from deployment and could have been there in four hours would have yielded different results and there would not have been 11 deaths (9 of which at airfield). The hostage-takers wouldn't have made it to the airfield and the three captured would not have been assisted out of the country later on following the Lufthansa charade.

What trained unit? The Army were legally barred from interfering,and GSG-9 didn't exist (and was set up as a result of the incident).

JustinDee

Manic Moran wrote: »

This is true.



What trained unit? The Army were legally barred from interfering,and GSG-9 didn't exist (and was set up as a result of the incident).

Obviously I'm referring to outsiders, in this case IDF commando units.

Nodin

The guardians put together an attempt to lay out the picture of what happened.....

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/interactive/2013/jan/25/algeria-hostage-crisis-full-story

Manic Moran

Obviously I'm referring to outsiders, in this case IDF commando units.

Right, but how many lessons did the Germans learn from the Munich incident that they wouldn't have learned that day had the IDF been allowed to play?

long range shooter

Manic Moran wrote: »

Right, but how many lessons did the Germans learn from the Munich incident that they wouldn't have learned that day had the IDF been allowed to play?

Its not about lessons learned,its about saving as many lifes as possible

JustinDee

Manic Moran wrote: »

Right, but how many lessons did the Germans learn from the Munich incident that they wouldn't have learned that day had the IDF been allowed to play?

???
Your post reads like rescuing the members of the Israeli team would have prevented the Germans seeing their calamitous inefficiency in dealing with terrorist hostage situations. I don't think teaching German security forces was the priority. Had IDF deployed, 9 out of 11 lives would have been saved.

Amirani

JustinDee wrote: »

???
Your post reads like rescuing the members of the Israeli team would have prevented the Germans seeing their calamitous inefficiency in dealing with terrorist hostage situations. I don't think teaching German security forces was the priority. Had IDF deployed, 9 out of 11 lives would have been saved.

You could ask how many lives have been saved since the creation of GSG-9? Unfortunately it's often the loss of human life that is necessary for people and Governments to stand up and take action. IDF may have achieved a different outcome in Munich but then maybe these situations would've ended differently if they had - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GSG_9#Publicly_known_missions

There has to be a point where a country's own soldiers/special forces are used over offered help, otherwise they'll forever dependent on offered help.

JustinDee

That is just twisted.