Animals could have a desire seek revenge it seems!

Wibbs

Shenshen wrote: »

And I think when it comes to cognitive processes, nearly all that separates us from chimps is the fact that we developed language and writing, therefore can record and hand down knowledge, and by extension learn from our ancestors in ways chimps cannot.

Kiiinda. Chimps have some language, but not comparable to us. It was a big breakthrough. Apparently quite "recent" in our evolution, at least complex language. That said I don't buy that as a million years ago very primitive(pre Erectus) humans made it to Flores and likely elsewhere across a treacherous strait and in sufficient numbers to be viable, as did Erectus. It looks like pre Neandertals made it to Crete and it's way outa sight of land, so I personally suspect they had quite sophisticated language. Modern humans are different again. Neandertals(and Denesovians) and us were sub species and had kids with each other, yet they remained pretty sophisticated, but stagnant too for a very long time. It seems it was a numbers game. You could have a Neandertal Einstein, but when he/she died after a lifetime of little contact outside his or her small tribe/family their genius died with them. We're more social and there's just more of us(which came first I wonder) so we were more likely to transmit genius when it occurred. That transmission is what made us who we are today. I would suspect average IQ has climbed quite appreciably even since we modern Sapiens evolved. I'd further suspect if you cloned a Neandertal tomorrow and raised him or her in a modern family environment with education and telly and interweb, they'd look odd, but would otherwise pass as "human".

Yes, most humans (most, not even all!) are more intelligent than chimps.

To be fair unless someone was actually cognitively disabled and by a large degree they'd be well ahead of a chimp.

That little genetic difference allows us to be vastly different, but at a molecular level, it's still rather tiny.

Well it is and it isn't. You hear figures of 1% difference between us and a chimp, but many Europeans have up to 4% Neandertal DNA, east Asians have even more archaic DNA(up to 14% IIRC) but it doesn't make them less human. It so depends where the DNA is and what it codes for, if it codes at all. Like has been noted there's a lot of "banana" in us. Cat too and some dog IIRC. Viruses can move DNA around the place and across species, but I'm not peelable, yellow and barking(well...):D

Doc Ruby wrote: »

evolution can be measured in libraries.

Great way to put it!

I've often felt that intelligence was more a matter of willpower than IQ.

I'd tend to agree DR. Plus there are many types of intelligence. Emotional, muscular, even willpower and doggedness.

gurramok

A lion does remember from childhood who raised him! Meet Christian Go cats!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zVNTdWbVBgc

Rocket19

Procasinator wrote: »

If you strip away out culture and combined knowledge, however, we are still anatomically and behaviourally very different (as you already mentioned). I think we would still be considered very different to chimps and bonobos.

We're really not much different at all.

Aside from our large brain, we're remarkably similar to chimps. Similar DNA and anatomical structure.
Actually, we're very similar to most mammals, at least osteologically.

steddyeddy

There is a complexity going on that we don give other animals credit for. This is part of a documentary featuring two former circus elephants reunited after nearly twenty five years. The keeper says they never saw a reaction like the one they saw when these two elephants were reunited after over two decades! Very emotional

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=28E2EKBlr0k

Conmaicne Mara

Meh, revenge is only a problem for them that can't do the job right first time.

steddyeddy

still though I think it is quite amazing that a tiger would walk past so much walking food to get to her intended victim!

Wibbs

Rocket19 wrote: »

We're really not much different at all.

Aside from our large brain, we're remarkably similar to chimps. Similar DNA and anatomical structure.
Actually, we're very similar to most mammals, at least osteologically.

Yes and no, for a start the "large brain" is a huge difference. It's not even size so much as how it's organised. Flores man(hobbits) had brains not much bigger than chimps and had a very sophisticated tool kit and could make at least one if not more sea voyages. Other major differences, we lost a whole chromosome somewhere along the line, we are bipedal, we've got much higher manual dexterity, we're hairless, even things like secondary sexual characteristics are constantly on display, rather than a seasonal thing, our non verbal communication especially in the face is richer. It's a very long list. We're nearly as different to them as they are to baboons say.

B0jangles

My favorite tiger revenge story happened in the free zoo in the park that's along the lakefront in Chicago. I was there on a J1 with some friends back in the day, and because we were poor students, we visited the free zoo quite often.

On one occasion there was a man in an ugly leather jacket teasing one of the tigers. I'm not really clear about what he was doing but he was jiggling about in a way that was massively irritating to the large male tiger who was pacing back and forth in his outside enclosure. Leather coat dude did another of his irritating dances causing the tiger to pace to the end of his cage for the twentieth time. He spun around, threw a leg in the air and sprayed across the 12 foot pit to cover leather coat guy with an indestructible, dense layer of tiger piss.

Bravo, Mr Tiger, I thought. Bravo.

johnr1

daRobot wrote: »

Our old Jack Russell did anyhow.

My dads pal, drunk after some rugby game, literally kicked the dog off the couch in the living room (we called him up this obviously)

Next morning, with him feeling guilty, he goes to pet the dog before he leaves. Chomp!

A well deserved revenge attack by the dog. These animals are much smarter than we give them credit for.

This doesen't surprise me one bit: When I was a young fella, we had several dogs at home, and I used to feed them, put them in for the night etc. They would certainly not have deemed me to be a threat or someone to be hated or feared. Quite the opposite, and learned over years.
Once and once only, I kicked one of them who was acting the bollix during feeding; eating the others food.
Following night I put him in the shed as normal, patted him as normal, and as I turned away, the fcuker bit me.

I've often thought of it, as up to then I didn't think it was possible for an animal to pre-meditatedly seek revenge.

I also remember a fox who was away from her den when my neighbour killed her cubs to come back that night and kill four lambs in the field near the den despite having ignored those lambs for a couple of weeks before.
That HAD to have been revenge.

.

Wibbs

I got a lesser one. Dublin zoo, mid 80's. Me and a mate were traipsing around viewing the various animals. We come to the Orang utan enclosure and there's a big male just chillin. As you do. He spots my mate with a ciggie in his mouth, looks around all conspiratorial like and motions to him with two fingers to his own mouth asking for one. So this mate being a bollex throws him a ciggie. In the packet. Unlit. Yer man looks at the packet, deftly extracts the ciggie. My mate throws him a box of matches. I was all "ahh jaysus, would you not throw the poor bugger a lit one?". No worries the Orang picks up the matches, delicate as you like takes one out, lights the fag and then fires the matches back at high speed just missing us. Then just lays there puffin away. The fooker was cool, straight from the fridge maaan.

Da Shins Kelly

floggg wrote: »

Chimps for example have been known to commit murder. Not even just killing a rival encroaching on their territory or competing for a female, but a group of chimps carrying out an unprovoked premeditated and organised assault on another member of the group and beating them to death.

I saw a documentary about this, and it showed footage of the chimps actually tip-toeing around the jungle, being careful not to make too much noise until they got close enough to their chosen victim to attack and kill him. That is absolutely more than instinct, that is scarily close to human thinking. They even gouged out his eyes and castrated him, before just leaving his corpse there. :eek:

Wibbs

On the revenge front I recall watching a programme by the herpetologist lad with red hair, can't recall his name I'm afraid. This episode concerned King Cobra's in India. He noted that the locals reckoned kings had a revenge vibe to them and could recognise individual people. Anyway during the documentary he caught one and when it was in it's enclosure surrounded by other people, it made a beeline straight for him. Then again a pale red headed bloke is gonna stand out among the locals or maybe there's something in it?

Staying in India there were attacks in the mid 90's carried out by a wolf who attacked and often killed children around this village. Previously the vilagers had found his packs den and killed his pack mates and cubs, so again maybe... That said Indian wolves were and are well known for being child killers(unusual as wolves generally leave people well alone, even injured people).

On the wolf front, great plains Native Americans had close ties with them and it went both ways. The wolves would often drive buffalo towards the local lads, knowing they'd take a few down and the local lads would leave a few for them.

Wild dolphins do similar in a few places on earth, where they'll drive shoals of fish towards human nets, knowing the humans will give them their share. They'll even get caught up in the nets at times, but don't go apeshít, because they know the locals will be along in a jiffy to let them out. This has gone on for many many generations. Since antiquity seafaring folk have reported that dolphins are known to save people from drowning and shark attacks.

Actually that's another area where modern humans are different, we interact with more species to mutual benefit and have domesticated many(and it could be argued they domesticated us, the dog/wolf being the most obvious and longest lasting).

PizzamanIRL

It's about time animals started to stick up for themselves.

Wibbs

Da Shins Kelly wrote: »

I saw a documentary about this, and it showed footage of the chimps actually tip-toeing around the jungle, being careful not to make too much noise until they got close enough to their chosen victim to attack and kill him. That is absolutely more than instinct, that is scarily close to human thinking. They even gouged out his eyes and castrated him, before just leaving his corpse there. :eek:

That might be a territorial thing though D. Lions if they get the chance will stalk and take out hyenas and African wild dogs if they start taking the piss. Wolves while leaving vultures and crows alone(possibly because they're both good at reaching kills first so are good signallers that the table is set?) will get hellbent on stalking and taking out other canines like coyotes(and domestic dogs) on their territory. They don't eat them either, they just kill and essentially mutilate them as a "message", or that's how it seems. They'll even scent mark the corpses in what looks like a way to make the message clearer. Maybe chimps being more clever just leave better or more specific "messages"?

Da Shins Kelly

Wibbs wrote: »

That might be a territorial thing though D. Lions if they get the chance will stalk and take out hyenas and African wild dogs if they start taking the piss. Wolves while leaving vultures and crows alone(possibly because they're both good at reaching kills first so are good signallers that the table is set?) will get hellbent on stalking and taking out other canines like coyotes(and domestic dogs) on their territory. They don't eat them either, they just kill and essentially mutilate them as a "message", or that's how it seems. They'll even scent mark the corpses in what looks like a way to make the message clearer. Maybe chimps being more clever just leave better or more specific "messages"?

Well in the documentary they were talking about this behaviour in relation to the idea that chimps sometimes kill just for the sake of it, as in murder. It was a group of young male chimps all together doing it. Maybe the documentary makers interpreted their behaviour in the wrong way. I'd love to be able to find the documentary again. It was a few years ago now since I saw it, but it stuck in my mind.

Da Shins Kelly

This isn't the same documentary I saw, but it's an interesting video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CPznMbNcfO8

c-note

Many Farmers who buy bulls dont want to be around when the bull is "rung" (the act of piercing their nose and giving them a nose ring, required by law, when selling a pedigree bull). The idea being that when the bull is stronger it will exact revenge on those present when the act of ringing occours. There might be something to it, but i always tell the farmer that the bull will want to kill him either way.

i57dwun4yb1pt8

Czarcasm wrote: »

It always strikes me as pseudo science when people try to attribute human characteristics to animals.

Humans are capable of forming rational thought and overriding their instinctual behaviour. Animals react because they are incapable of thinking. They act purely on instinct.

this is the dumbest thing ive ever read in my life

Wibbs

DaDumTish wrote: »

this is the dumbest thing ive ever read in my life

Nope it's a point of view and an understandable one in a few respects, however it's one that C has already started to examine and think more on and fair play. Seems like an open minded chap or chapess to me anyway.

i57dwun4yb1pt8

its still the dumbest thing ive ever read = statement of fact

i dont care if its anyones POV

Procasinator

DaDumTish wrote: »

its still the dumbest thing ive ever read = statement of fact

i dont care if its anyones POV

That is the dumbest thing you have ever read? Really? I say I'd a least read one thing dumber than that on a regular basis. Probably almost daily. I'm sure I've written dumber myself.