Thoughts on existence

18AD

JD DABA wrote: »

Interesting, but isn't this what is happening every day of our lives. Our individual atoms are set free every second.
Maybe 'you' is just a unique gathering of conditions at a given time.

It might work for personality too, your opinions change based on others' actions.
"I" fcking hate my boss... one raise later.... the "I" fcking loves my boss.

So no fixed opinions, no fixed atoms.

Yet theres still something that experiences sensations regardless of who you are at any given time.

The 'I' will still prefer a cupcake over a slap in the jaw. And theres something ,seemingly unchanging, there that will turn away from pain and turn towards pleasure.

Yes, my point wasn't to deny that the "I" exists, but simply to counter the argument that "your" atoms go on existing after you die. The atoms were atoms before they arranged themselves to be you. The atoms take primacy over "you" and will go back to being not you after you're gone. You are made of atoms, but those atoms aren't bits of you after you're gone. There's not like a residue of yourself in those atoms when they leave your body. Except perhaps in a very intrictate history of the individual atom.

It's interesting that even this subjectivity is not something fixed, as you say. A subject is a fickle thing that seems to change from moment to moment. The convention of calling it "I" lends it some concrete existence that maybe it doesn't actually have. And would this have a completely different meaning to what we think of as a subject?

Daniel Dennett wrote a thing about how he thinks the continuity of the subject is like a centre of narrative gravity. That is, it's a non-existing, but necessary thing.
http://ase.tufts.edu/cogstud/papers/selfctr.htm

Others have said "the unnarrated life is not worth living." In that the self actually exists in the stories we construct of ourselves. What is your life but those stories? And perhaps there is some link here to what separates us from animals.

Mardy Bum

18AD wrote: »

Others have said "the unnarrated life is not worth living." In that the self actually exists in the stories we construct of ourselves. What is your life but those stories? And perhaps there is some link here to what separates us from animals.

Bruce Hood's The Illusion of the Self may interest you. It is from a neuroscientific viewpoint and is excellent exploration of the topic.

18AD

Mardy Bum wrote: »

Bruce Hood's The Illusion of the Self may interest you. It is from a neuroscientific viewpoint and is excellent exploration of the topic.

I'll add that to my already inflated reading list.

There's a video of the basic idea here if anyone else is curious.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZIDWcWn21gg

Lexe

Joe1919 wrote: »

I think there is a genuine third position. This is a selfless position, a sort of letting go of the boundary of the self (and developing a greater and wider love for the world or cosmos or nature or fate or god) and hopefully with age and wisdom accepting the finite aspect of ourselves but yet coming to realize that there is part of ourselves that can make a mark upon the universe. (e.g. our work, our relationships etc.) and can live on (so to speak).

I like this idea too. I wouldn't overly concern myself with the what ifs and maybes of an afterlife or the end. All we can really do is work with what we have and appreciate it. We can live on, we can create, write, paint, sculpt, any number of things. We have conversations that change and shape other people. I think everyone leaves a mark on the world. And change is inevitable. We need to die as new life is born.

MaxWig

JD DABA wrote: »

The 'I' will still prefer a cupcake over a slap in the jaw. And theres something ,seemingly unchanging, there that will turn away from pain and turn towards pleasure.

Not necessarily.

The turn away from pleasure is evident everywhere.

Or maybe its more accurate to say that one man's slap is another man's cupcake

Cranky1966

"Thoughts on existence"....now theres a subject missing from the school curriculum. Getting kids to contemplate their existence is a frightening thought for a lot of people. Arguing with my sister-in-law once regarding my unwillingness to fill my kids heads with religous dogma, she said what was I going to replace it with...what story will I tell them to make life make sense....it was a very good question. A question we will have to answer as religon (whatever code) just doesnt fill that spiritual void we are all born with....so when could it be done, how could it be done...

leahwechat

I am advoocating in realism, so i think everything would disppeared after death.No objects ,no thoughts ,,,

carraig2

morison4642 wrote: »

id be more afraid of going on to another life , because u have to go through all the crap again , im just cynical

+1

But not just that crap I have lived.
I fear an afterlife where I would be reborn as a person who would have a life of pain, torture, starvation, cold.
If i think about it at all I don't sleep

Torakx

I believe your pretty safe there.
Our lives are just a blip and the universe carries on after(in my view).

Maybe I sound cynical but...
I don't see any need to make my mark or leave a legacy behind me.
Whats the point?
In another 5000 years all our great thinkers most likely will be a tiny shadow, and all the other "average" people will be an even smaller shadow...at best from the looks of things.
So I often find it puzzling people want to have a statue of themselves put up after they die. They can't enjoy it when they are dead. And it's going to succumb to entropy eventually..

I have a strong assumption that when Im "gone" it will be nothing, much like a deep sleep where I don't even recall it , except no waking up of course.
I will feel pity before I go also for those who had attachments to me.I prefer people have no attachments I think.
Can still love me etc, but no need to need me...if that makes sense.

So with that viewpoint, moving forward I really appreciate the fact I even exist at all in this short time frame.
What it means to me to exist, is nothing and everything at once.
Sine making future plns will only be to enjoy or experience while I'm alive, might aswell enjoy the ride and respect other creatures experiences too.
I do regret im not a vegetarian though.. might work on that one before the world ends for me.
When I go, you lot are going too!
Again why I don't believe in legacy's.

Gary L

Acciaccatura wrote: »

So, after we die, we're all either a) going to live eternally in some form of afterlife, and exist eternally or b) cease to exist consciously and never make a mark upon the universe again, eventually to be forgotten. Whichever one you believe in, I personally find both prospects terrifying. I just thought I'd open the book for discussion on it. And if anyone can come up with a possibility c), fair play to ya

Possibility C would be a finite afterlife, after all its not outside the realms of possibility(well..) that advanced aliens or future humans could create perfect replicas of our minds inside powerful computers. It could be a billion years hence but you'd blink and miss the interval.Maybe they get bored and turn you off again, maybe they allow suicide, maybe they cant stop the end of the universe.

Cranky1966 wrote: »

"Thoughts on existence"....now theres a subject missing from the school curriculum. Getting kids to contemplate their existence is a frightening thought for a lot of people. Arguing with my sister-in-law once regarding my unwillingness to fill my kids heads with religous dogma, she said what was I going to replace it with...what story will I tell them to make life make sense....it was a very good question. A question we will have to answer as religon (whatever code) just doesnt fill that spiritual void we are all born with....so when could it be done, how could it be done...

Camus thought that the non-consciousness and therefore meaningless of the universe was not in itself a problem. The problem was that we tend to be emotionally invested in it not being so. He said that the only philosophical question worth considering was how we respond to this absurd situation, that is what reasons can we find for not killing ourselves.

It doesn't have to mean anything. Not in any grand objective sense anyway. By a nice turn of evolution our brains are capable of juicing us up with some pretty tasty emotions. I think that's enough reason to live. Camus suggested that we should make what meaning we can in our lives but be careful not to drink our own kool-aid and forget that its our own creation.

Such nihilistic ramblings are unlikely to help you sleep at night I admit but what can you do?

countrynosebag

So, it is AS UsUAL merely a question of what we believe or think we want to believe, or what we are indoctrinated with!
Life and death are sure, quality of life is not and there has been no contact from anyone passed on or none that we know of.
It is all pointless nothing, life or death....I think that humans in general are a waste of space and resources, they are actually wrecking the planet, killing it as far as I can see and until more people are prepared to live with and not at the planet I cannot foresee a change of my opinion.
I am not against technology but just wish it could be used positively, and quickly too,
Please do not mutter Luddite nonsense at me. I use a lot of technology and find it useful and enjoyable.

Gary L

There isn't a species on earth that wouldn't drink the place dry if it could. Don't hate the player, hate the game.

Torakx

Besides, what is the planet but some motlen iron and rock floating around gazillions of other rocks.
If we destroy it, no matter in the big picture.
As mentioned above its all about how you see it.
An animal doesn't care if we wreck the planet because it is living ignorantly in bliss(in the now).
We are upset by it because we don't live in the now and can fully comprehand the past and future.
Such a strange species we are

eternal

People may be skeptical but I have seen ghosts in every day living. Energy moves at different variant rates in the zones and people who have been murdered or killed etc are caught there and visible and contactable with gifted mediums. The reason nobody believes this as there are so many fake rip off merchants out there who choke the real ones. There is something after this or else I would never have seen these energies. Energy cannot be created or destroyed only changed. We are energy and when we die we move through something. There is no such thing as complete obliteration as the essence still exists and survives by moving on or otherwise existing through the means of the living. Realms are there outside of us but we are too small to realise.

Torakx

eternal wrote: »

People may be skeptical but I have seen ghosts in every day living. Energy moves at different variant rates in the zones and people who have been murdered or killed etc are caught there and visible and contactable with gifted mediums. The reason nobody believes this as there are so many fake rip off merchants out there who choke the real ones. There is something after this or else I would never have seen these energies. Energy cannot be created or destroyed only changed. We are energy and when we die we move through something. There is no such thing as complete obliteration as the essence still exists and survives by moving on or otherwise existing through the means of the living. Realms are there outside of us but we are too small to realise.

This reminds me of a quote I posted in another thread here.

“And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music.”
-Nietzsche

I can't hear the music you do, so I remind myself not to judge or take a "side".
I don't believe in those things, but neither do I believe they don't exist.
The music that I hear might be coming from me, because all experience's are interpreted through perception.

Jeefff

eternal wrote: »

People may be skeptical but I have seen ghosts in every day living. Energy moves at different variant rates in the zones and people who have been murdered or killed etc are caught there and visible and contactable with gifted mediums. The reason nobody believes this as there are so many fake rip off merchants out there who choke the real ones. There is something after this or else I would never have seen these energies. Energy cannot be created or destroyed only changed. We are energy and when we die we move through something. There is no such thing as complete obliteration as the essence still exists and survives by moving on or otherwise existing through the means of the living. Realms are there outside of us but we are too small to realise.

This belief always gets me ^^
If I were to stop eating, my organs and muscles would be too drained to lift my body from this chair I'm sitting in.. All of what makes me me would waste itself away until I died..
Yet, after death, your presumption would be that I could spiritually stand up or move around and freely contact the living in my human form without a nutrient added to stimulate my ghostly organs..
Afterall, what are we below the brain? Remove the brain and essentially we are machines to keep the brain alive and healthy.. What use is the body in its entirety beyond life?
While I'm talking to a medium beyond the grave, are my ghostly organs crying out for food? To keep my ghostly brain active?

I can't put into words exactly how I feel about what you wrote, I don't want to insult you or your belief, and I also am intrigued by the notion of an engine running without fuel in another realm..
I won't sleep tonight