Where do I stand on this - bodyshop/mechanic quote issue....

reverbfuzz

Ok,

I took my car to a bodyshop to get some rust cut out/patching in new metal/re-painting. I was verbally quoted 500-600 euros. Not thrilled with that, but I agreed and told him to go ahead with the work. I was informed that I will have my car back in a week's time.

I sent a text today with the colour code for the paint, and received a reply as follows :

"we have started the work, but it's much more than we thought - it will therefore cost you €850".

...?! Where do I stand here? I agreed to a verbal quote of 500/600 euros.
I can't afford €850, and didn't agree to €850.
Am I just screwed...?

Toyotafanboi

a quote, or an estimate ?

its unfortunate enough but tbh i'd say you're somewhat stuck.

djimi

Did he start the work before he told you how much it would cost? Tell him to put it back to its original state, that you didnt agree to spend so much. Its his problem if he cannot do this.

dr.fuzzenstein

Verbal quote is not worth the paper it's written on...
I guess they found some more rot than they originally thought was there and therefore the hours increased.
You could argue that the shop didn't inform you of the extra cost and maybe that way get a bit off, and as always, you'll catch more flies with honey than vinegar!;)

Toyotafanboi

djimi wrote: »

Did he start the work before he told you how much it would cost? Tell him to put it back to its original state, that you didnt agree to spend so much. Its his problem if he cannot do this.

i think that that is a flawed opinion.

reverbfuzz

Toyotafanboi wrote: »

a quote, or an estimate ?

its unfortunate enough but tbh i'd say you're somewhat stuck.

At no point did I agree to 850...????

djimi

Toyotafanboi wrote: »

i think that that is a flawed opinion.

Why? If Im given a quote for a job I dont expect to get a phone call half way through saying that its going to cost 50% more. I hate this bull**** when guys try it on.

reverbfuzz

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

Verbal quote is not worth the paper it's written on...
I guess they found some more rot than they originally thought was there and therefore the hours increased.
You could argue that the shop didn't inform you of the extra cost and maybe that way get a bit off, and as always, you'll catch more flies with honey than vinegar!;)

They had the whole front end stripped at the start of this week, when I agreed for them to complete the job. I don't know where the 250/350 increase suddenly appeared.

reverbfuzz

djimi wrote: »

Why? If Im given a quote for a job I dont expect to get a phone call half way through saying that its going to cost 50% more. I hate this bull**** when guys try it on.

Have I any legal leg to stand on here?

Toyotafanboi

djimi wrote: »

Did he start the work before he told you how much it would cost? Tell him to put it back to its original state, that you didnt agree to spend so much. Its his problem if he cannot do this.

djimi wrote: »

Why? If Im given a quote for a job I dont expect to get a phone call half way through saying that its going to cost 50% more. I hate this bull**** when guys try it on.

in the real world, it's actually the OP's problem. i mean the panel beater wont be without a car, its the OP who will be off the road if he cant afford to pay.

and the panel beater can-not, bar divine intervention, put the car back into its original form if he's cutting out rot etc.

lets be sensible here. if he received an "estimate" it was exactly that, an estimation of cost that could change, pending several factors.

if it was a quote, then that's what i'd expect to pay and the panel beater to stick to. before a quote is made, a car should be properly inspected so as there is no hidden surprises.

reverbfuzz

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

Verbal quote is not worth the paper it's written on...
I guess they found some more rot than they originally thought was there and therefore the hours increased.
You could argue that the shop didn't inform you of the extra cost and maybe that way get a bit off, and as always, you'll catch more flies with honey than vinegar!;)

I'm to pay for his mistake? He had the whole front end of the car stripped down before we went ahead with this. There were no surprises to be had.

He has said in his text today "we are starting on 3rd of day of welding here, this job is much more difficult than I thought, it's going to cost 850 euro"

Should I not be informed of a 40% price hike BEFORE we agree to charge me this?!

reverbfuzz

Toyotafanboi wrote: »

in the real world, it's actually the OP's problem. i mean the panel beater wont be without a car, its the OP who will be off the road if he cant afford to pay.

and the panel beater can-not, bar divine intervention, put the car back into its original form if he's cutting out rot etc.

lets be sensible here. if he received an "estimate" it was exactly that, an estimation of cost that could change, pending several factors.

if it was a quote, then that's what i'd expect to pay and the panel beater to stick to. before a quote is made, a car should be properly inspected so as there is no hidden surprises.

So you're effectively saying he could tell me on Monday it's actually come to €1500 - more work than he originally thought, and I'd have to pay that?

Toyotafanboi

reverbfuzz wrote: »

So you're effectively saying he could tell me on Monday it's actually come to €1500 - more work than he originally thought, and I'd have to pay that?

im not telling you that.

obviously if the mans quotes were out by 250% on a regular basis he wont be in business very long. but yours was out by what €200? i think your choices are to either
suck it up, pay and chalk it up...
or discuss it with the panel beater and try reach a compromise price, or installments etc.

reverbfuzz

Toyotafanboi wrote: »

im not telling you that.

obviously if the mans quotes were out by 250% on a regular basis he wont be in business very long. but yours was out by what €200? i think your choices are to either
suck it up, pay and chalk it up...
or discuss it with the panel beater and try reach a compromise price, or installments etc.

It's not out by 200 euros, it's out by 250-350.
What I think has happened here is he took a job that he's regretting, so is now making me pay the difference.

I did not authorize him to do this job if it costs 850 euros.

Toyotafanboi

reverbfuzz wrote: »

It's not out by 200 euros, it's out by 250-350.
What I think has happened here is he took a job that he's regretting, so is now making me pay the difference.

I did not authorize him to do this job if it costs 850 euros.

i doubt he'd regretting it. its the sort of thing that happens in his trade. repairing damaged cars can often mean more work is uncovered after work has begun.

if you don't authorize work to continue at that price, ring him and stop him, get your bumper back on and take the car back. just pay for the job to that point.

djimi

Toyotafanboi wrote: »

in the real world, it's actually the OP's problem. i mean the panel beater wont be without a car, its the OP who will be off the road if he cant afford to pay.

and the panel beater can-not, bar divine intervention, put the car back into its original form if he's cutting out rot etc.

lets be sensible here. if he received an "estimate" it was exactly that, an estimation of cost that could change, pending several factors.

if it was a quote, then that's what i'd expect to pay and the panel beater to stick to. before a quote is made, a car should be properly inspected so as there is no hidden surprises.

There is a huge difference between 500 estimate/quote and trying to charge 850 for the final job. Most people would simply not have the budget for that kind of increase, and it should have been brought to the OPs attention prior to the work commencing. I can appreciate that unforeseen things can happen, but in this case I would expect a proper inspection to throw up any potential problems before the work starts.

Toyotafanboi

djimi wrote: »

There is a huge difference between 500 estimate/quote and trying to charge 850 for the final job. Most people would simply not have the budget for that kind of increase, and it should have been brought to the OPs attention prior to the work commencing. I can appreciate that unforeseen things can happen, but in this case I would expect a proper inspection to throw up any potential problems before the work starts.

i agree 100% an inspection should have told us what we need to know.

but for whatever reason it didn't happen and now we're in too deep. car is in pieces on the panel beaters floor, OP doesn't have the price difference (which i can understand)

what do we do?

we have to now make a compromise with the panel beater. (imo of course)

reverbfuzz

djimi wrote: »

There is a huge difference between 500 estimate/quote and trying to charge 850 for the final job. Most people would simply not have the budget for that kind of increase, and it should have been brought to the OPs attention prior to the work commencing. I can appreciate that unforeseen things can happen, but in this case I would expect a proper inspection to throw up any potential problems before the work starts.

Thank you. 500-600 was a stretch. 350 euros is, what, a 70% hike? Was he going to surprise me with this figure when I went to collect it?

mickdw

I could see where garage was coming from if they based quote on car without stripdown. Even in that case, it should have been made clear that the price could change once they go into it as rust can obviously be much worse than it appears on the surface.
In this case, if they quoted you after partial stripdown once they were happy that all the work was clearly visible, I would tell them take a hike.

Toyotafanboi

what car is it and what work? might help us get an idea of if he is way off the mark or not.

reverbfuzz

mickdw wrote: »

I could see where garage was coming from if they based quote on car without stripdown. Even in that case, it should have been made clear that the price could change once they go into it as rust can obviously be much worse than it appears on the surface.
In this case, if they quoted you after partial stripdown once they were happy that all the work was clearly visible, I would tell them take a hike.

The car was stripped down, bumper off, holes poked through the rust. I was then told 500-600 euros.

I then went back 3 weeks later (Tuesday afternoon) and they hadn't started the work. He then informed me that they could have it done in a week.

Texted him the paint code today. He texts me back with his 40-70% price raise. Wtf?

I could tell him to take a hike, but ... he still has my car?!

reverbfuzz

Oh, and he's actually fitting a fibreglass replacement front valance panel for the most part. (It's an old Vauxhall Viva)

Toyotafanboi

reverbfuzz wrote: »

The car was stripped down, bumper off, holes poked through the rust. I was then told 500-600 euros.

I then went back 3 weeks later (Tuesday afternoon) and they hadn't started the work. He then informed me that they could have it done in a week.

Texted him the paint code today. He texts me back with his 40-70% price raise. Wtf?

I could tell him to take a hike, but ... he still has my car?!

ah in that case, i'd go get the car back. he stripped it down and examined it and then quoted you. wouldn't expect the price vo vary so substantially from an inspection based quote.

and what panel beater worth his salt can't source a paint code?

blade1

do what my brother done when mechanic asked for double the price agreed.
paid him the original price and told him to get lost for the rest.
yeah,and why did you have to text him paint code?
codes are printed several places on cars.

reverbfuzz

blade1 wrote: »

do what my brother done when mechanic asked for double the price agreed.
paid him the original price and told him to get lost for the rest.

Do I physically grab the keys from him and drive off...? How does that even work?

blade1

its your car

mickdw

I would tell him to stop all work immediately. Get down there and suss him out. If he hasnt found something very unexpected, he doesnt have a leg to stand on. If the work needed is still in line with what you expected, tell him you are only paying the quoted amount. See what he says and go from there.

dr.fuzzenstein

djimi wrote: »

There is a huge difference between 500 estimate/quote and trying to charge 850 for the final job. Most people would simply not have the budget for that kind of increase, and it should have been brought to the OPs attention prior to the work commencing. I can appreciate that unforeseen things can happen, but in this case I would expect a proper inspection to throw up any potential problems before the work starts.

I would not have agreed on this originally, but after the OP stated that they had already stripped the car and should have had a better idea, this seems sensible.
The OP's first post was misleading, it gave the impression that some mechanic mentioned in passing that the job would cost 500ish and once they got started, they discovered a lot more rot.

But the problem in this country is the complete lack of protection for the consumer in these cases. In civilised countries, the guy you hire has to give you an estimate and stick by it unless there's a dammn good reason and the customer has to be informed of all changes.
In this country I once brought a car to the garage and sked for an estimate. The answer I got was "Ah surre now, we wouldn't be knowing what dat'll cosht till we're finished the job, could be rrealy dearr". Any proper country that kind of malarkey just wouldn't stand. Most workmen here will flat out refuse to give any kind of quote.

reverbfuzz

blade1 wrote: »

its your car

right, but he's hardly going to hand over the keys to me if he wants 850?

reverbfuzz

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

I would not have agreed on this originally, but after the OP stated that they had already stripped the car and should have had a better idea, this seems sensible.
The OP's first post was misleading, it gave the impression that some mechanic mentioned in passing that the job would cost 500ish and once they got started, they discovered a lot more rot.

What can I do? Is Citizens Advice worth bothering with?
It just isn't fair... I'd have gone elsewhere if 850 had been mentioned.

blade1

also,3 weeks is unacceptable.
he doesn't sound too professional to me.

Toyotafanboi

reverbfuzz wrote: »

Do I physically grab the keys from him and drive off...? How does that even work?

its just another **** idea.

talk to the panel beater. tell him to hold off on starting anything more, then either make a price compromise or take your car back.

reverbfuzz

Toyotafanboi wrote: »

its just another **** idea.

talk to the panel beater. tell him to hold off on starting anything more, then either make a price compromise or take your car back.

Why would he hand me the car back though if I don't agree to his, err, blackmail?

reverbfuzz

This concerns me :

"If you formally dispute the bill, the garage has the right to keep your vehicle until the bill has been paid. This is called having a lien over the car. If you need your vehicle urgently, you should only agree to pay 'under protest'. If you don’t do this, it will be difficult to get the money back later on, as the garage could argue that by paying the bill, you were accepting the charges.

Write the words 'paying under protest' clearly on the repair order sheet, so there's no doubt about your intention."

Crackle

This guy sounds dodgy as hell. Several weeks with the car with no work done and texts you to tell you about the price increase instead of ringing.

I don't know how you're gonna resolve it op. If it was me, the very first thing I would do is have a face to face conversation with him and I'd want to know exactly what he's charging extra for.

king_of_inismac

Realistically the job is harder than expected.

The mechanic underestimated the price.

The obvious solution is to simply negotiate a compromise price with him.

Thats the grown-up approach.

Stheno

king_of_inismac wrote: »

Realistically the job is harder than expected.

The mechanic underestimated the price.

The obvious solution is to simply negotiate a compromise price with him.

Thats the grown-up approach.

This is it for me, I've had plenty of situations with mechanics (not bodywork) where a job turned out more complicated.

I'd suspect in this case, the rust/rot was more extensive once they really got down to the metal and has involved more work.

The one fault with the repair guy is not ringing once they realised that.

You need to negotiate OP if they have done unauthorised work

George Dalton

It's a very old car. Quoting for this kind of repair is not an exact science because it is impossible to predict what you are going to uncover during the course of the work. It's not like quoting for a repair job on a modern car. Sometimes you can do all the inspection you want beforehand but it is only when you start cutting away old rusty metal that you expose the extent of the problem.

reverbfuzz

George Dalton wrote: »

It's a very old car. Quoting for this kind of repair is not an exact science because it is impossible to predict what you are going to uncover during the course of the work. It's not like quoting for a repair job on a modern car. Sometimes you can do all the inspection you want beforehand but it is only when you start cutting away old rusty metal that you expose the extent of the problem.

True - but 850 is brand new news to me today. More than what I wanted/expected to pay (I'd have gone to my plan b otherwise).
I in no way agree to that price, and don't appreciate being forced to pay that...?

George Dalton

Look at it this way. Regardless of the rights and wrongs over the inaccuracy of the estimate, you are now in the situation you are in.

You need to forget the €500 estimate, the game has moved on. Now the question is whether or not the €850 is a fair price for the work.

If it isn't then pay the man for what he has done so far and take the car elsewhere.

If the €850 is fair for the work that needs doing then you either suck it up and pay for the job or else you don't get the work done. You can't expect someone to do an €850 job for €500!

reverbfuzz

George Dalton wrote: »

If the €850 is fair for the work that needs doing then you either suck it up and pay for the job or else you don't get the work done. You can't expect someone to do an €850 job for €500!

I agree.
As a matter of principle though, I don't want him to do any further work on the car. I'm now just concerned that whatever he charges me for the work done will be an accurate price. I've no way of verifying that myself... I could bring in a 3rd party to do that, but surely this guy could still charge effectively what he wants from this point on, now that the circumstances of the situation have changed?

George Dalton

I can fully understand why you feel aggrieved in this situation but I doubt the panel beater is too happy either. There are no winners here. It's just one of those things that can happen from time to time. I will say it sounds like his communication leaves something to be desired. Maybe you should call in and see the car yourself and chat to him face to face in a non confrontational manner. Ask him to explain to you how the extra parts of the job that he didn't anticipate when doing the inspection and estimate came about. It is possible that he will be able to show you exactly where the hidden work (and therefore costs) are. Then it is up to you to decide what you want to do about it.

reverbfuzz

George Dalton wrote: »

I can fully understand why you feel aggrieved in this situation but I doubt the panel beater is too happy either. There are no winners here. It's just one of those things that can happen from time to time. I will say it sounds like his communication leaves something to be desired. Maybe you should call in and see the car yourself and chat to him face to face in a non confrontational manner. Ask him to explain to you how the extra parts of the job that he didn't anticipate when doing the inspection and estimate came about. It is possible that he will be able to show you exactly where the hidden work (and therefore costs) are. Then it is up to you to decide what you want to do about it.

I do agree with what you're saying, but in practice I can easily see him listing me a load of things that are now this or that, or were harder because of a or b. He'll simply be trying as hard as possible to prove why the increase in price is justified (I'm not saying it is or it isn't by the way - my only point all along has been that I think it's a massive hike in cost from the original figure, and that I can't afford 850).

I think I'll take the car as is, hope he's not going to then charge me a load for a relatively small amount of work. That I won't accurately be able to prove/dis-prove.

I truly don't know how he couldn't have told me 850 this time last week, before commencing on the nitty gritty of the job (this is considering he'd took the bumper and grille off, and had poked plenty of holes through before last week).

Oh, and one more thing! He's fitting a front fibreglass panel that I provided - most of the work's done for him already! Hence my astonishment at his new figure! :

George Dalton

reverbfuzz wrote: »

I truly don't know how he couldn't have told me 850 this time last week, before commencing on the nitty gritty of the job (this is considering he'd took the bumper and grille off, and had poked plenty of holes through before last week).

I am pretty sure that if he knew it was going to be €850 he would have told you that figure. There is no advantage for him in telling you a low figure and then upping it. That never works out too well!

Is he used to dealing with older cars or does he mostly work on modern stuff?

reverbfuzz

George Dalton wrote: »

I am pretty sure that if he knew it was going to be €850 he would have told you that figure. There is no advantage for him in telling you a low figure and then upping it. That never works out too well!

Is he used to dealing with older cars or does he mostly work on modern stuff?

They do bodywork too, yep (he wasn't fazed when I initially took it in there).
I've sent a text off, will see what he says ....?

Toyotafanboi

probably "feck off" at 1.15am on friday night/ saturday morning :P

reverbfuzz

Toyotafanboi wrote: »

probably "feck off" at 1.15am on friday night/ saturday morning :P

Ha! No, I scheduled it to get to him at 9am....