PIR and Internal Siren not working since I removed and rewired them

Comer1

I had to remove the PIR and internal siren to accomodate new piping in my hall. It was a simple case of removing the wiring, threading the cable through the timber boxing in the pipes and rewiring them again. I made note of where the wires go and rewired exactly as before. Now neither of them work. If the alarm is set off, the external bell sounds but not the internal siren. If I try to set the alarm with the PIR active, the warning buzzer telling me to leave just keeps buzzing. The PIR LED is constantly blinging on and off every second even if there is no movement in the hall.

Could this be a tamper issue or something else. Is there any other information I would need to provide in the hope of getting a solution. I can take pictures of both devices if that would help.

Thanks

Conor

altor

Comer1 wrote: »

I had to remove the PIR and internal siren to accomodate new piping in my hall. It was a simple case of removing the wiring, threading the cable through the timber boxing in the pipes and rewiring them again. I made note of where the wires go and rewired exactly as before. Now neither of them work. If the alarm is set off, the external bell sounds but not the internal siren. If I try to set the alarm with the PIR active, the warning buzzer telling me to leave just keeps buzzing. The PIR LED is constantly blinging on and off every second even if there is no movement in the hall.

Could this be a tamper issue or something else. Is there any other information I would need to provide in the hope of getting a solution. I can take pictures of both devices if that would help.

Thanks

Conor

Hi Conor.

The pir needs to close for the system to set. Try down oowering the pir and powering it back up.
What system have you installed?
Are the positive and negative wired the correct way in the internal bell?

KoolKid

Comer1 wrote: »

I had to remove the PIR and internal siren to accomodate new piping in my hall. It was a simple case of removing the wiring, threading the cable through the timber boxing in the pipes and rewiring them again. I made note of where the wires go and rewired exactly as before. Now neither of them work. If the alarm is set off, the external bell sounds but not the internal siren. If I try to set the alarm with the PIR active, the warning buzzer telling me to leave just keeps buzzing. The PIR LED is constantly blinging on and off every second even if there is no movement in the hall.

Could this be a tamper issue or something else. Is there any other information I would need to provide in the hope of getting a solution. I can take pictures of both devices if that would help.

Thanks

Conor

Hi Conor,

There is definitely some power issue there. Have you a meter to check the positive going to the internal? Is the panel showing any fuse fault when disarmed? I would disconnect & reconnect the PiR . To see if that clears it.
Is there a part set on the alarm ? Does that set OK?
It would also help to know what system it is. Astec PiRs are notorious for this if they get a bad power up.

Comer1

Thanks for the replies. If you mean disconnect and reconnect the pir to power down, I've tried that with no success. When I try to arm it says "Open Zone(s) PIR HALL" I can part arm the system or arm it by inhibiting the PIR zone.The alarm has an Aritech CS350 control panel and was installed about 16 years ago. I've attached pictures of the PIR and internal bell. Luckily, I also have the engineers code but if it's a programing issue, I've no idea where to go with that.

Thanks again for the help so far

altor

Comer1 wrote: »

Thanks for the replies. If you mean disconnect and reconnect the pir to power down, I've tried that with no success. When I try to arm it says "Open Zone(s) PIR HALL" I can part arm the system or arm it by inhibiting the PIR zone.The alarm has an Aritech CS350 control panel and was installed about 16 years ago. I've attached pictures of the PIR and internal bell. Luckily, I also have the engineers code but if it's a programing issue, I've no idea where to go with that.

Thanks again for the help so far

Can you press the down arrow twice on the keypad and tell us what it lists off?
Can you disconnect the internal bell and the PIR and connect the pir back up on its own to see if the PIR resets?

Comer1

Pressing the down arrow does nothing. Pressing the up arrow once brings up Inhibit and a second press brings up Not Allowed. Disconnecting the internal bell and pir and then reconnecting pir made no difference either.

KoolKid

I would also close off the tamper on the PiR and wire the pair for the alarm to either side of the resistor to eliminate a wiring problem.
But from what your saying it sounds like the PiR is causing your problem.
After closing off as above take the power off both the PiR & the Internal & close off the tamper from the internal.
Now go into engineer & show open zones. Everything should show closed.
Start by wiring the positive back into the internal & check again
If OK add the negative into the internal & try again . If all is still closed test the internal & see if it activates.
If not take the internal negative out at the panel & touch it off aux negative. Does that sound the internal?
If your good at this stage proceed to reconnect the power to the PiR checking open zones at every stage.

Comer1 wrote: »

Pressing the down arrow does nothing. Pressing the up arrow once brings up Inhibit and a second press brings up Not Allowed.

No real need to do this as open zones in engineer will do the same as down arrow twice.

DublinDilbert

Is the red light coming on/off on the pir? Can you hear the relay clicking?

As the lads above say it sounds like a power problem. Did the red/black wires touch when you had them disconnected? I would say you may have blown a fuse in the panel, fairly easy to change.

KoolKid

The internal may be a fuse but the PiR seems to be getting power. A high resistance short is also a possibility and it could be bringing the power down slightly. The PiR may be getting power but not enough to close the relay.

Step by step is the best approach here.
Conor, do you have a multi meter?

altor

Comer1 wrote: »

Pressing the down arrow does nothing. Pressing the up arrow once brings up Inhibit and a second press brings up Not Allowed. Disconnecting the internal bell and pir and then reconnecting pir made no difference either.

Show open zones is not set up so. It sounds like an issue with the PIR. It may be faulty.
The internal bell and the 12V supply for the PIR share the same fuse so you having power going to the PIR indicates the fuse is ok.

Close off the tamper in the internal bell by either closing the lid or join the tamper connections blue/yellow together.

Can you connect from the PIR the yellow cable to the end of the resistor in the N/C terminal beside it.
Also connect the blue/white together to close off the PIR tamper.

The alarm should set now if you test it.

Can you connect the internal bell on its own and test the internal bell.
If this does not work can you connect it direct to the 12V supply to see if there is an issue with the internal bell? The internal bell should ring if there is no problem with it.

Comer1

altor wrote: »

Show open zones is not set up so. It sounds like an issue with the PIR. It may be faulty.
The internal bell and the 12V supply for the PIR share the same fuse so you having power going to the PIR indicates the fuse is ok.

Close off the tamper in the internal bell by either closing the lid or join the tamper connections blue/yellow together.

Can you connect from the PIR the yellow cable to the end of the resistor in the N/C terminal beside it.
Also connect the blue/white together to close off the PIR tamper.

The alarm should set now if you test it.

Can you connect the internal bell on its own and test the internal bell.
If this does not work can you connect it direct to the 12V supply to see if there is an issue with the internal bell? The internal bell should ring if there is no problem with it.

Thanks for all the suggestions I should point out that I know nothing about alarms, so I'm not exactly sure what you are asking me to do, particularly with the pir. The red and black cables definately did touch but while I don't know if the bell is getting power, the light on the pir is blinging on/off. I will have another go when I get home later today.

KoolKid

Ok. The best way to proceed is this.

Put panel into engineer mode and display open zones.
Disconnect all red and blacks and keep them separated.
Disconnect blue and yellow from the internal and join them together.
Disconnect the green and white from the PiR and join those together.
Disconnect the Blue and yellow from the PiR and connect to each end of the resistor.
The panel should now show all closed.
Next reconnect red and black into the internal and see if the internal works.
Post back when you get this done.

Comer1

KoolKid wrote: »

Ok. The best way to proceed is this.

Put panel into engineer mode and display open zones.
Disconnect all red and blacks and keep them separated.
Disconnect blue and yellow from the internal and join them together.
Disconnect the green and white from the PiR and join those together.
Disconnect the Blue and yellow from the PiR and connect to each end of the resistor.
The panel should now show all closed.
Next reconnect red and black into the internal and see if the internal works.
Post back when you get this done.

Great stuff! Progress at last, the internal Bell is now working, it was a fuse. I did everything you said above and it did show all zones closed. I could then set the alarm as normal without the PI R. What does this indicate?

KoolKid

Good stuff . Now rewire in the blue and yellow on the internal and close up.
After checking everything is still good rewire the PiR and check again.
Be careful not to touch the red off any others.

Comer1

KoolKid wrote: »

Good stuff . Now rewire in the blue and yellow on the internal and close up.
After checking everything is still good rewire the PiR and check again.
Be careful not to touch the red off any others.

The internal is rewired working and perfectly. I rewired the pir but it is still showing as an open zone.

altor

Comer1 wrote: »

The internal is rewired working and perfectly. I rewired the pir but it is still showing as an open zone.

Can you close off the PIR by means of joining the cable and resistor together that is wired in the N/NC terminals of the PIR.

Replace the PIR if that closes the zone in the control panel.

Comer1

I got it sorted thanks to all the help I got on here and blind luck. The pir was wired up incorrectly. Once I figure that out and wired correctly, all I had to do was set it as an entry exit zone and all seems to be fine now.

Thanks for all your help, you have no idea how much I appreciate it.

KoolKid

Is the PiR is the hall. If the front door is alarmed the PiR should not be entry exit. It should be alarm with the attribute access (ac)

Comer1

KoolKid wrote: »

Is the PiR is the hall. If the front door is alarmed the PiR should not be entry exit. It should be alarm with the attribute access (ac)

The front door is alarmed with Zone type set to entry exit. The pir is in the front hall. Once I had the pir working, it would go off when I tried to do a full set until I changed pir zone type to entry exit. Should I change it to zone type alarm and zone attribute to AC?

Comer1

KoolKid wrote: »

Is the PiR is the hall. If the front door is alarmed the PiR should not be entry exit. It should be alarm with the attribute access (ac)

All sorted now! Set pir as alarmed, part guard and access. Amazing how much I've learned about alarms in just two days. Of course I was coming from a very low starting point

Thanks again!

KoolKid

Glad you got it all sorted. Its mostly a process of elimination with something like that.

altor

Comer1 wrote: »

All sorted now! Set pir as alarmed, part guard and access. Amazing how much I've learned about alarms in just two days. Of course I was coming from a very low starting point

Thanks again!

Great to see you got it all working again. Alarms are easy to do once you have the right information

Comer1

I'm back again :-( which means I must be in trouble again. I had to disconnect the pir again and despite my best efforts, I think the red and black wires touched. Now when I try to set the alarm I get an error "fuse" I've changed the fuses in the alarm but no joy. It's an Aritech BTW

KoolKid

Is the PiR getting power?

Comer1

KoolKid wrote: »

Is the PiR getting power?

Yes

KoolKid

Its back to the elimination process again.
The Keypad is Ok , the aux power is ok. Check the bells intternal and external & battery.
Better still.... Do you have a multi meter?

Comer1

Yes, I have a multi meter, but I'll need a bit of instruction on how I can use it to get to the root of the problem. The external bell is working fine but I think the internal is not (even though I didn't touch it.) How do I check the battery?

As before, I can part gaurd. I can also fully set alarm if I inhibit the PIR.

KoolKid

Set your multi meter to continuity and remove each fuse and check it touching each meter lead to each end of the fuse.

Comer1

I'll do that this evening.

Thanks

Comer1

I just had a look at the multimeter and I can't see a continuity mode. See attached picture. Is it like a wi-fi symbol on its side?

My lack of knowledge in this area is really embarrassing:pac:

KoolKid

Set it to 200ohms. That's putting the dial to 6 O clock.
Touch the 2 leads together and the reading will show close to 0.00
This is what you want to see when you check each fuse.
Remember you must remove the fuse from the pub to check it correctly.
As you say the PIR is showing open start with the the aux fuse first.

Comer1

The fuses are ok

KoolKid

OK. Now open the PiR , set you meter to 12vdc (3rd one anti clockwise) And check the voltage there Red lead to + & Black to negative.
If thats ok check the alarm connections in the PiR.

Comer1

For the PIR it shows 11.08 but when I test the internal in the same way, it only shows 0.58

Comer1

When I have the PIR wired up and go into show open zones, the display keeps flashing from "PIR Hall" to "All Closed" every couple of seconds.

Also I closed the PIR by disconnecting the black and red, connecting blue/yellow together and white/green across the resistor. With this done I can set the alarm.

KoolKid

11.08 is a little low. The internal will show 0 volts unless its ringing.
If you trigger the alarm & you are still getting that reading then there is your problem.

KoolKid

Comer1 wrote: »

When I have the PIR wired up and go into show open zones, the display keeps flashing from "PIR Hall" to "All Closed" every couple of seconds.

That is as it should be. Its picking you up in the hall.
Have you the access attribute applied to that zone?

Comer1

I disconnected the yellow and blue wires of the internal and joined them together. I disconnected the red and black from the internal and set off the alarm. When I tested the black and red of the internal with a multimeter they showed 0.00 and the display on the alarm keypad displayed "fuse"

KoolKid

Meter the voltage between Internal + & Aux -
What does it show?

Comer1

If you mean between 3 and 6 on the main panel in the attached picture, it's reading -0.28

KoolKid

Then if fuse 2 is definitely good then that output is gone.
Connect the Internal + To external + or Aux +

Comer1

KoolKid wrote: »

Then if fuse 2 is definitely good then that output is gone.
Connect the Internal + To external + or Aux +

I connected internal + to external + and when I do a chime test, nothing but an external test has both internal and external sounding. I think i have no power going to the PIR now though.

KoolKid

There is something not right here. The + are permanent it's the - that switch.
Feeding a different + should make no difference.
Either there is a serious problem with the panel or something wrong with the wiring.
Are the internal, external and PIR all on separate cables.?
At this stage I would disconnect all of them and check all the outputs.
If they are all ok add one device at a time checking everything as you go.

Comer1

Does it matter if the internal and external are working together? This morning I had the PIR closed off and I could partguard and fully set the alarm. When I tripped the alarm both internal and external bells sounded. If I could now get the PIR working, would there be any problem with leaving it at that?

Anything using fuse 2 does not work. I first tried joining the internal+ to the Aux+ and there was still no power going to the internal. I'm a bit concerned now that I have no power going to the PIR. Not sure what I could have done last night to do that. Which terminals are the PIR connected to in the main panel?

KoolKid

Take the connections out of int + use either of the other +s..
Once you have used separate - s you should be able to switch them individually.

Comer1

I hope I've followed your instructions correctly. I connected the internal+ to the external+ as shown in the attached file (white cable connecting 6 to 4) and now all seems to be working perfectly. I tried disconnecting the internal= and putting it into external+ directly, but when I then connected the power to the PIR, the internal started to make a kind of squaking noise.

Is it OK to leave it like this? Do you think my problems are sorted?

KoolKid

Take everything out of 6 & put the 2 reds into 4. That should be ok.

Comer1

KoolKid wrote: »

Take everything out of 6 & put the 2 reds into 4. That should be ok.

When I do that the internal continues to ring but as if its only getting half the power it needs to ring fully. Is there anything wrong with leaving it with the wire joining 4 and 6?

KoolKid

It is indicating a serious problem with the panel.
What about of you connect it to the Aux + ?

Comer1

KoolKid wrote: »

It is indicating a serious problem with the panel.
What about of you connect it to the Aux + ?

There seems to be no power to aux as it is on fuse 2

KoolKid

If its working leave it be, but there is a serious problem with the panel if its struggling with 2 bells & a Pirs.
Time to consider an upgrade,