Is it time to arm ourselves with weapons?

darkhorse

Ush1 wrote: »

I might call you crazy if you think guns will enhance you and your families safety. Hypothetically, would you rather:

An unarmed burglar breaking in and having no fear of being shot(therefore no need to carry a gun himself) who wants to rob stuff.

An armed burglar with a gun in fear of his life that you have a gun also so who wants to rob stuff but will also shoot someone.

1) How would the burglar know whether the home owner is armed or not.

2) The burglar should be in fear of his life, its him that taking a life risk, once he crosses that line.

Boombastic

freddiek wrote: »

He was held up as a hero by Traveller-hating racists. very disturbing now looking back on it

On his retrial he was acquitted by a jury of his peers


Pádraig Nally's retrial took place in December 2006. Similar evidence was submitted to the court, including evidence of Ward's character and previous convictions and both Nally's and Ward's mental states on the day in question.

The jury of eight men and four women acquitted Nally of manslaughter and he walked free

mikom

I wonder how the 96-year-old woman in Donegal is getting on, after her aggravated burglary.
Being woken up in bed, punched her the ribs and then gagged by a dude in a balaclava will haunt her forever.

Wibbs

Cora Mahoney wrote: »

Let's stop the PC bs and start telling the truth about who is doing most of the shooting and who is doing most of the dying.

Take Chicago, for example:



In 2010, Chicago was 32.9% African-American, 28.9% Hispanic, 31.7% White, and 5.5% Asian:



Murder

In 2010, African-Americans accounted for 76.2% of murder arrests and Hispanics accounted for 19.3% of murder arrests in Chicago. In other words, 95.5% of murder arrests in Chicago were African-American and Hispanic.



Criminal Sexual Assault

In 2010, African-Americans accounted for 65.7% of arrests for criminal sexual assault and Hispanics accounted for 27.7% of arrests for criminal sexual assault in Chicago. In other words, 93.4% of arrests for criminal sexual assault in Chicago were African-American and Hispanic.



Robbery

In 2010, African-Americans accounted for 85.5% of arrests for robbery and Hispanics accounted for 10.8% of arrests for robbery in Chicago. In other words, 96.3% of arrests for robbery in Chicago were African-American and Hispanic.



Aggravated Assault

In 2010, African-Americans accounted for 70.7% of arrests for aggravated assault and Hispanics accounted for 21.5% of arrests for aggravated assault in Chicago. In other words, 92.2% of arrests for aggravated assault in Chicago were African-American and Hispanic.



Burglary

In 2010, African-Americans accounted for 74% of arrests for burglary and Hispanics accounted for 18.7% of arrests for burglary in Chicago. In other words, 92.7% of arrests for burglary in Chicago were African-American and Hispanic.


**Source: Chicago Police Department, 2010 Annual Report
https://portal.chicagopolice.org/portal/page/portal/ClearPath/News/Statistical%20Reports/Annual%20Reports/10AR.pdf

Cool, but line up those stats with the socioeconomic and educational background of those arrested/convicted. You'll notice a pattern. It's little to do with racial background. A better one to look at would be to compare stats for crime among white collar types and then see if there's a racial element. I'll bet the farm there aint.

Take it closer to home. Travelers have been implicated in many of these rural crime sprees(not exclusively of course). Are travelers a different "race"? No.

In any event I don't see your point really? That guns would be fine here because we're mostly white? We'd only see trouble from non white Irish people in such a scenario?

Extinction

freddiek wrote: »

He was held up as a hero by Traveller-hating racists. very disturbing now looking back on it

He was also given support by people who could identify with the situation he was in. Nally didn't create the situation, ward did that himself, had he been a law abiding citizen he would not have been there that day.
You can correct me if I'm wrong about this but I din't think Nally shot him for being a traveler, I'm sure he did it because he was in fear of a known violent thug. The fact that a racist element held him up as a hero is not Nallys fault.

Cora Mahoney

gobnaitolunacy wrote: »

Nally is neither hero nor scum, but a man put in an unenviable situation.

Any elderly man who endured what he did, for as long as he did, and still came out of it with his head firmly on his shoulders is a hero to me, and to many others. I know he doesn't see himself as a hero, and that is also part of why I see him as one.
He is a good man who lost years of his life all because he had no choice but to deal with absolute evil scumbags intent on tormenting him endlessly because they knew they could get away with it. And they would have, had he not finally fought back.

TheDoc

WileyCoyote wrote: »

He shot dead an injured man crawling away from him on a public road.

Basically already covered, but irrelevant if he was curled into a ball ****ting himself.

Im of the firm opinion that if you trespass into someones home with intent to steal or assault, your taking your life into your own hands. I know my when he hears these stories always reiterates how he would even give the person a warning, he would be all over them trying to hurt them.

And as I've grown older I'm grown the same attitude, wouldn't even give a shout, I'd be throwing digs ASAP, not taking any risks with the family.

However I wouldn't go as far as saying arm yourselves. The area being discussed is rural areas where its pretty much easy as **** to get yourself a rifle. Typically a requirement is to have land owners permission, and with most rural families owning land themselves, they get armed pretty easily.

If this was a call for city residents to get armed, be more of a story here. Actually thinking about it, I dont know anyone from a rural area that doesn't have a few rifles and shotguns in the house.

BattleCorp

BabyMonkeyy wrote: »

The general population should not have a right to arm themselves with a gun. All you have to do is look at America. People can not be trusted with one.

The general population in Ireland don't have a right to arm themselves with a gun. Getting a licence for a gun is a privelege here, not a right.

You say above that people can not be trusted with a gun. I have several guns because shooting is my hobby. They are fully licenced and I obey all the laws regarding storage etc. I'm responsible and behave in a safe manner with my guns. Why can I not be trusted with one?

Generalisations such as you made above don't make sense to me. 99.99% of people with gun licences behave themselves and don't commit crimes with them.

Unfortunately most people think "ban guns" whenever a tragedy occurs.

Most crimes are commited by people who are illegally in possession of guns (such as Adam Lanza in the US).

Do you think that the people in possession of illegally held guns will hand them up if they are banned?

All a ban will do is to punish the 99.99% of people who don't disobey laws.

PhlegmyMoses

Wibbs wrote: »

Cool, but line up those stats with the socioeconomic and educational background of those arrested/convicted. You'll notice a pattern. It's little to do with racial background. A better one to look at would be to compare stats for crime among white collar types and then see if there's a racial element. I'll bet the farm there aint.

Take it closer to home. Travelers have been implicated in many of these rural crime sprees(not exclusively of course). Are travelers a different "race"? No.

In any event I don't see your point really? That guns would be fine here because we're mostly white? We'd only see trouble from non white Irish people in such a scenario?

It's getting harder to forgive those who think that race is the issue. I was talking to my friend's missus the other day, who is from Marseille. She was blaming "the Arabs" on the rising level of crime there. Of course she confirmed that "the Arabs" lived in the poor neighbourhoods. Socio-economic realities are the primary reason why black people are so highly represented in gun murder statistics in the US.

Ush1

darkhorse wrote: »

1) How would the burglar know whether the home owner is armed or not.

2) The burglar should be in fear of his life, its him that taking a life risk, once he crosses that line.

1) Well if everyone started tooling up he'd probably be more safe than sorry with his chosen profession. If innocent people have guns, you better be sure the bad lads will. Same as most burglars in countries with easy accessibility to firearms.

2) Yes, he is in fear of his life which is exactly why he would be armed and shoot first.

cocobear

darkhorse wrote: »

1) How would the burglar know whether the home owner is armed or not.

Well I leave empty shell casings outside my gate
I put empty cartridge boxes on some windows sills
I leave my gun cleaning kits visible on the garage window sills
And most of all I got a A4 bright yellow sign printed and fixed it to my gate that reads as follows
" legally held firearms on premises, no trespassing"
If they dont know then, they deserve to be shot

Ush1

Wibbs wrote: »

In any event I don't see your point really? That guns would be fine here because we're mostly white? We'd only see trouble from non white Irish people in such a scenario?

Exactly, I have no idea where that statement came from or what it was trying to say.

Cora Mahoney

Wibbs wrote: »

Cool, but line up those stats with the socioeconomic and educational background of those arrested/convicted. You'll notice a pattern. It's little to do with racial background. A better one to look at would be to compare stats for crime among white collar types and then see if there's a racial element. I'll bet the farm there aint.

Take it closer to home. Travelers have been implicated in many of these rural crime sprees(not exclusively of course). Are travelers a different "race"? No.

In any event I don't see your point really? That guns would be fine here because we're mostly white? We'd only see trouble from non white Irish people in such a scenario?

In 2010, African-Americans accounted for 76.2% of murder arrests and Hispanics accounted for 19.3% of murder arrests in Chicago. In other words, 95.5% of murder arrests in Chicago were African-American and Hispanic.

I'm afraid I disagree that "there is no racial element".

The point was the original commenter I am responding to keeps talking like it's regular American gun owners who are doing all this killing.
It isn't.

And Look, nothing personal but I don't really want to play the "race game" on this thread, it's too time consuming and I am just not in the mood frankly, lol. These stats are legitimate and my source is good. People can draw their own conclusions.

CruelCoin

Boombastic wrote: »

In the front of todays 'The Star' newspaper there is an article about Padraig Nally calling for people in rural areas to arm themselves with guns after the recent spate of violent robberies.


What does AH reckon? Should we arm ourselves and be ready??


Living alone in rural Ireland myself, I can see the advantages, but I'd probably end up accidently shooting myself, so I'll stick with my dog for the moment!!

I have no gun, but i do have a hunting knife, long-handled wood-axe, and Recurve bow.

Given the average gardai turnout time in my area is 1 hour, this necessitates arming myself if i don't want to be stabbed.

Bruthal

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

It's not that simple, though, is it.

From what I remember of the story, it sounded like an isolated, scared man who had reached the end of his tether. The courts seemed to agree.

Its just a pity P Nally didnt have the patients some of the posters here.

Such patients likely exists in such posters, in their absence of the experience of being isolated, and victims of a continuous string of harassment and burglaries from a dangerous criminal.

Also ask yourself, did the law abiding person that P Nally was, suddenly just decide to kill someone, or could he just possibly have done it because he was living in fear of that criminal?

Cora Mahoney

Ush1 wrote: »

Exactly, I have no idea where that statement came from or what it was trying to say.

See why I avoid this type of discussion? Already I'm an "it" for posting some non-pc facts about murder rates in Chicago

Bruthal

mikom wrote: »

I wonder how the 96-year-old woman in Donegal is getting on, after her aggravated burglary.
Being woken up in bed, punched her the ribs and then gagged by a dude in a balaclava will haunt her forever.

That wont deter the "dont shoot, its only a ps3" posters.

Why? Because they are not 96

darkhorse

Ush1 wrote: »

Exactly, because their life is now in much more immediate danger from you. Not that hard to comprehend really.

Comprehend this, Ush1. The burglars life is in immediate danger the moment they cross my front door threshold, whether they are armed or not.

Dyr

Lelantos wrote: »

The law in this country states that reasonable force only. If you shoot someone breaking in to rob a ps3, that doesn't count & you go to jail, its that simple

quote the relevent legislation please.

You shoot someone in this country under any circumstances then you're in very dodgy legal territory straight away.

Da Shins Kelly

Really do not get all the hero worship for Padraig Nally. He's wrong about this too.

Cora Mahoney

Da Shins Kelly wrote: »

Really do not get all the hero worship for Padraig Nally. He's wrong about this too.

I am the only one who said I saw him as a hero, and I explained why.

He doesn't see himself as a hero, and as the TV special on him made clear, he is a fairly broken man thanks to the hell he's been through.

But there is no way "he's wrong about this". Just too bad it went on so long.

Ush1

darkhorse wrote: »

Comprehend this, Ush1. The burglars life is in immediate danger the moment they cross my front door threshold, whether they are armed or not.

Exactly, so they'll arm themselves! ...and around we go again...comprende?

gobnaitolunacy

Cora Mahoney wrote: »

Any elderly man who endured what he did, for as long as he did, and still came out of it with his head firmly on his shoulders is a hero to me, and to many others. I know he doesn't see himself as a hero, and that is also part of why I see him as one.
He is a good man who lost years of his life all because he had no choice but to deal with absolute evil scumbags intent on tormenting him endlessly because they knew they could get away with it. And they would have, had he not finally fought back.

I have every sympathy for the man, but shooting someone in the back is hardly something to be applauded. It is the function of the justice system to administer justice, not private individuals. If the justice system hadn't failed, a man would be still alive today, banged up perhaps, but alive.

Cora Mahoney

gobnaitolunacy wrote: »

I have every sympathy for the man, but shooting someone in the back is hardly something to be applauded. It is the function of the justice system to administer justice, not private individuals. If the justice system hadn't failed, a man would be still alive today, banged up perhaps, but alive.

As has already been pointed out to the point of absurdity, no one is applauding the specific act of shooting he was driven to. I am applauding him for fighting back and making damn sure it was HIM who came out of this alive and free.

Good guys: 1
Terrorist: 0

asherbassad

Cora Mahoney wrote: »

In 2010, African-Americans accounted for 76.2% of murder arrests and Hispanics accounted for 19.3% of murder arrests in Chicago. In other words, 95.5% of murder arrests in Chicago were African-American and Hispanic.

I'm afraid I disagree that "there is no racial element".

The point was the original commenter I am responding to keeps talking like it's regular American gun owners who are doing all this killing.
It isn't.

And Look, nothing personal but I don't really want to play the "race game" on this thread, it's too time consuming and I am just not in the mood frankly, lol. These stats are legitimate and my source is good. People can draw their own conclusions.

These figures support no conclusions. Black comprise approximately 10% of the US population yet equal numbers of blacks and whites are in jail for murder. Does that mean that blacks are 10 times more likely to kill someone or 10 times more likely to be convicted?
Why is it that a black man convicted of murder is also 10 times more likely to receive the death penalty than a white man for the same conviction in the same state?

Your figures don't explain the demographics of "Chicago" or what areas these figures were confined to. We all know that poorer neighbourhoods are more likely to produce more crime than affluent neighbourhoods. It just so happens that poorer neighbourhoods in the US are predominantly inhabited by blacks and hispanics.

Take a whiter than white state/city and compile the crime statistics and you'll be surprised to find that the majority of crimes are committed by (wait for it) whites.

PhlegmyMoses

gobnaitolunacy wrote: »

I have every sympathy for the man, but shooting someone in the back is hardly something to be applauded. It is the function of the justice system to administer justice, not private individuals. If the justice system hadn't failed, a man would be still alive today, banged up perhaps, but alive.

It is too easy for us to say stuff like this having never been in the situation he was. I don't disagree with anything you say but there are exceptional circumstances and situations that only those placed in them could possibly understand. I'm glad I live in a country where guns are not commonplace but when somebody does what McNally did, it would be incredibly harsh for anyone to pass judgement.

Ush1

Cora Mahoney wrote: »

See why I avoid this type of discussion? Already I'm an "it" for posting some non-pc facts about murder rates in Chicago

Right, so this has gone from should Irish people arm themselves to protect themselves from intruders to can non whites be trusted with guns?

CruelCoin

Lelantos wrote: »

The law in this country states that reasonable force only. If you shoot someone breaking in to rob a ps3, that doesn't count & you go to jail, its that simple

No-one can mind read.

You have no idea what the intruder wants, and you cannot think to assume that you do.

The law is written to the effect that you are allowed to use reasonable force to protect yourself if you believe you are in danger.

You saw a glint reflecting off his zip? It could be metal, could be a knife! Under reasonable doubt you are now free to put him under before the feared stabbing occurs.

There is no definition of "reasonable", and no definition of "danger" or "dangerous". Telepathy doesn't exist outside t.v, so hence there is a nice big grey area. in which i can kill the scumbucket in my house.

Cora Mahoney

asherbassad wrote: »

These figures support no conclusions. Black comprise approximately 10% of the US population yet equal numbers of blacks and whites are in jail for murder. Does that mean that blacks are 10 times more likely to kill someone or 10 times more likely to be convicted?
Why is it that a black man convicted of murder is also 10 times more likely to receive the death penalty than a white man for the same conviction in the same state?

Your figures don't explain the demographics of "Chicago" or what areas these figures were confined to. We all know that poorer neighbourhoods are more likely to produce more crime than affluent neighbourhoods. It just so happens that poorer neighbourhoods in the US are predominantly inhabited by blacks and hispanics.

Take a whiter than white state/city and compile the crime statistics and you'll be surprised to find that the majority of crimes are committed by (wait for it) whites.

Where are your stats and sources for your claims? I provided mine.

Madam_X

Nally was not elderly at the time. He was however in a vulnerable situation of course - same as if he were young. He should not have taken another person's life no matter how much a lowlife, other than in self defence: this was not the scenario of the fatal shooting.

However, what irks me is the implication that somehow Nally was in a rational frame of mind when he did it; that he was able to think things through calmly during this frenzied and terrifying situation, one which was just the latest in a long string of them for him. The man was in "snap" mode after being terrorised for too long; no doubt the fear of revenge from Ward and his buddies, possibly later that night (can you imagine the terror of that thought?) was going through his mind too. It's bound to have been a kneejerk reaction.