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Road costs vs tax take

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    #32
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    CIE wrote: »
    Socialistic argument. I do not benefit directly or indirectly from roads I do not use (whether driving, biking or walking) or that does not host vehicles that carry goods directly to me or to local businesses that I frequent. Yet I am not exempt from funding these roads, and that is whether I drive or not. It's a good thing I don't have to fund the air that carries planes and helicopters, or water that carries cargo vessels, on a per-cubic-metre basis...

    My argument was simply that fuel duty is a motoring tax. That`s all.

    What is the ratio of road maintenance expenditure v motor and fuel duty revenue? Im not sure of that one myself.

    As for paying for the air that carries planes, and the water that carries ships, who built them, and who maintains them?

    You didnt mention railways, you are happy to fund them?


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    #33
    CIE
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,463 ✭✭✭CIE


    bk wrote: »
    Well you do indirectly, the entire economy only operates because of those roads. If other people can't get to their farm, school or jobs then the whole economy would collapse and you would starve.

    Also you have no idea which roads the goods you buy used to get to your local shop. A weekly shop probably contains items that have used every major road in Ireland.

    Lets be honest here, if there was a natural disaster tomorrow and all the intercity roads were closed, we would be in very serious trouble. On the other hand if the intercity rails closed, you would barely notice it.

    I'm not saying rail doesn't have a value, but in a country of the size and demographics of Ireland, it is relatively small compared to road.
    That does not mean I have to pay for any of it, especially indirectly. I don't mind paying directly. Once I'm paying directly, then it truly does not matter which roads bring me the goods, since I have paid in that manner and not for the roads it did not use. And no, we would not be in a wreck were any of the motorways closed due to some sort of fictitious natural disaster.

    And don't dare say that the country would not notice if the intercity rails were closed. It would indeed. Unless you really want Ireland to be a backwater country permanently. Even our nearest neighbour uses the rails to its full extent.

    The road-versus-rail nonsense is getting tiresome. Other countries tried it a half-century ago and it doesn't work.


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    #34
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    CIE wrote: »
    And don't dare say that the country would not notice if the intercity rails were closed.

    I dont think he said that at all. You seem to be saying we would be fine if the roads closed.

    Next time there is an inch of snow on the ground, see how the country comes to a standstill. Now try that for a month instead of a day or two, and I can safely say it would be real trouble.


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    #35
    steamengine
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,372 ✭✭✭steamengine


    CIE wrote: »
    That does not mean I have to pay for any of it, especially indirectly. I don't mind paying directly. Once I'm paying directly, then it truly does not matter which roads bring me the goods, since I have paid in that manner and not for the roads it did not use. And no, we would not be in a wreck were any of the motorways closed due to some sort of fictitious natural disaster.

    And don't dare say that the country would not notice if the intercity rails were closed. It would indeed. Unless you really want Ireland to be a backwater country permanently. Even our nearest neighbour uses the rails to its full extent.

    The road-versus-rail nonsense is getting tiresome. Other countries tried it a half-century ago and it doesn't work.


    +1........It has been tried here to some extent and hasn't worked. A whole tram (DUTC) system discarded in Dublin. It reached out as far as Dalkey and Howth and covered most of the the established suburbs of the time. Thankfully some redress has been achieved with Luas, but nowhere near the previous coverage as yet.

    How's that for short sightedness and waste. Add to that Cork - Midleton and Dublin - Dunboyne / M3 Parkway.

    History is repeating itself - a word of caution then to those who advocate Intercity rail isn't necessary !!!


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    #36
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,572 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    CIE wrote: »
    And don't dare say that the country would not notice if the intercity rails were closed. It would indeed. Unless you really want Ireland to be a backwater country permanently. Even our nearest neighbour uses the rails to its full extent.

    It would be noticed, but not a massive deal, extra bus coaches and cars would easily take up the slack. The reverse isn't true.

    BTW I'm talking about intercity, not DART/Luas.


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    #37
    Mucco
    Registered Users Posts: 714 ✭✭✭Mucco


    Costs of road transport are not just building and maintenance.

    There are also:
    • costs of accidents - ~190 deaths, how much is a life worth?
    • environmental cost - pollution due to domestic road use has been estimated to lead to 13,000 premature deaths pa in the UK.
    • other health costs - especially obesity as people drive the 5km to school/eork instead of walking/cycling.
    • asset value of roads

    Some of these are very significant


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    #38
    corktina
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    well 190 road deaths is significant, but bear in mind the dreaded motorways have reduced that total a lot and on that basis are a great investment.

    i doubt that pollution is this country causes even a fraction of the 13000 deaths in the UK , totally different ball-game there

    the obesity thing wouldn't make any difference either way in a road vs rail comparison, so why mention it?

    asset value of roads? what does that mean?


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    #39
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,947 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    What do you expect people to walk and cycle on without motorist funded roads?


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    #40
    The Idyl Race
    Closed Accounts Posts: 222 ✭✭The Idyl Race


    bk wrote: »

    Lets be honest here, if there was a natural disaster tomorrow and all the intercity roads were closed, we would be in very serious trouble. On the other hand if the intercity rails closed, you would barely notice it.

    Let's be honest here, this should be inscribed over Commuting and transport as its statement of intent, because the main thrust of posts on this board is exactly that. I'd advise anyone who has an interest in the future of railways in this country outside of museums in Northern Ireland to bear that in mind before making any effort in this place.


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    #41
    Mucco
    Registered Users Posts: 714 ✭✭✭Mucco


    corktina wrote: »
    well 190 road deaths is significant, but bear in mind the dreaded motorways have reduced that total a lot and on that basis are a great investment.

    i doubt that pollution is this country causes even a fraction of the 13000 deaths in the UK , totally different ball-game there

    the obesity thing wouldn't make any difference either way in a road vs rail comparison, so why mention it?

    asset value of roads? what does that mean?
    There's a report by TU Dresden on road costs.
    Here's a newspaper article on it:
    http://m.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/dec/25/car-pollution-noise-accidents-eu


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    #42
    steamengine
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,372 ✭✭✭steamengine


    Mucco wrote: »
    There's a report by TU Dresden on road costs.
    Here's a newspaper article on it:
    http://m.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/dec/25/car-pollution-noise-accidents-eu

    This certainly throws a light on the true cost of road transport - for the Republic this added cost extrapolated out for either €600 or €750 per head of population comes to a massive €2.7 or €3.4 billion per annum.


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    #43
    corktina
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    657% of statisitcs are made up.


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    #44
    steamengine
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,372 ✭✭✭steamengine


    corktina wrote: »
    657% of statisitcs are made up.

    But the remaining 343% of statistics are not made up ! :D


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    #45
    rp
    Users Awaiting Email Confirmation Posts: 1,227 ✭✭✭rp


    steamengine wrote: »
    This certainly throws a light on the true cost of road transport - for the Republic this added cost extrapolated out for either €600 or €750 per head of population comes to a massive €2.7 or €3.4 billion per annum.
    €6.3 billion according to this report: http://www.rte.ie/news/2013/0409/380405-air-quality/


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