Jumps horses sales prices

Colonel Sanders

This post on the Champion Bumper thread got me thinking about the amount of huge purchase prices I have seen and heard about over the last 18-24 months

While National Hunt owners are not in the game to make money is the strategy of buying big money point/bumper winners the path to success? Let's take a few examples (some of the prices are based on speculation in the media/Betfair forum etc)

- Mount Benbulben - 300k+
- Old Kilcash 300k+
- Golantilla of course 370k
- I think Roger Brookhouse spend 700 or 800k at the last Cheltenham sale on 6 or 7 horses

There are numerous other examples, and then horses bought off the flat (Last Shadow, who finished 4th at Doncaster todat cost 210k).

There have been some notable successes. Kauto Star, Master Minded, I was unreliably informed that huge money was turned down for Brave Inca. Even Garde Champetre cost a gigantic sum and while his successes weren't in Grade 1 races he gave his owner 2 festival successes

On the other hand there was talk of telephone numbers being offered for Cousin Vinny & Dunguib (I heard, again unreliably, 7 figures in the case of Dunguib)

The question is are you better getting a good agent and buying store horses, cheaper horses in training or shooting for the stars with these monster purchases?

To me the list of failures far out weighs the successes to make those kind of purchases worthwhile (not that I could afford even one of Golantilla's horse shoes )

UrbanSea

I mentioned this on another thread a few weeks ago.its crazy when point or bumper winners are going for more than Galileo colts. Another who went for around 150 sterling I think it was is a bumper winner from last year think its called Ethiopia or Utopia (on an annoying ipad don't know how to open another window and check) he hasn't won since

Colonel Sanders

UrbanSea wrote: »

I mentioned this on another thread a few weeks ago.its crazy when point or bumper winners are going for more than Galileo colts. Another who went for around 150 sterling I think it was is a bumper winner from last year think its called Ethiopia or Utopia (on an annoying ipad don't know how to open another window and check) he hasn't won since

- Grey Monk costing 210k after winning a point (cost the princely sum of 350 quid originally)
- not as recent but Brian Gleeson's wife getting 310k for Go All The Way after finishing 2nd to Bishopsfurze in a bumper

And these are just a few random examples off the top of my head

No residual value and not all can win G1's

If I was ever in a position to own a bumper/point winner I think you'd have to sell. I mentioned Cousin Vinny & Dunguib above but I remember heading telephone numbers being offered for Rathmore Castle a few years back too. Just think that while it would be painful to sell a horse & then see it go right to the top if these kind of prices are floating about its simply basic economics.

Imhof Tank

Colonel Sanders wrote: »

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No residual value and not all can win G1's

If I was ever in a position to own a bumper/point winner I think you'd have to sell. .......................... Just think that while it would be painful to sell a horse & then see it go right to the top if these kind of prices are floating about its simply basic economics.

Dont think it would be painful at all.

From what I have seen in recent years, the common game plan on the PTP scene now is:-

- buy unbroken 3yo at Derby sales for up to say 20k;
- prepare for 4/5 year old maiden PTP, hope to win or be placed first time out then make straight for Doncaster sales and hopefully clear 200k;



The above is Plan A for all but the mega millionaire types. Lads at the mid level dream primarily about big fat cheques, not leading in winners at Cheltenham.

Winning Ways Racing

Colonel Sanders wrote: »

I was unreliably informed that huge money was turned down for Brave Inca.

You can be reliably informed now that it was. The problem with syndicates is that when you're offered big money, you will set aside the cost of two more horses in training and split the residual between 10 or 20 syndicate members and it will come back to €5k or €10k and a lot of members just want a bit of craic if they have a good one. Brave Inca was like that. I'd sell a good one now and recommend to my own syndicates to sell. We had two dual bumper winners that would have made a lot of money but the syndicates didn't want to sell.

To add to your expensive horse collection is Italian Master. Whatever happened him. But you only have to look at the Gold Cup to see what Irish point to point winners can win. Sure, they aren't all successful but you could pick up 5 nice store horses for €100k and spend another €50k training them to find out they were useless. You could buy a nice winning pointer or bumper horse for €150-200k and be ready to go in the top grade, hopefully.

Our syndicates simply don't have the funds to do that so we are back at buying store horses and reaching for the stars but look at Brookhouse, he bought Cheltenian for a couple of hundred grand.

PS Not all bumper or point winners sell for big money. There's some value to be had at the 40-50k level too and that's not much of a return for the seller if they've spent €30k on buying and training the horse and taking the associated risks.

tipster

i hear jp has bought jezki unreal money paid id say

Colonel Sanders

tipster wrote: »

i hear jp has bought jezki unreal money paid id say

Really?

Extrapolating from some of the prices paid for bumper/point winners that must have been a kings ransom

He has previous there. Jenari & Jered both ran in the same colours (I think!). If I am recalling correctly they are both related to Jezki. JP bought both of them

tipster

its flying around the place today anyway from good sources although nothing confirmed officially

klairondavis

Gigginstown paid €350,000 for Empire Of Dirt as a 3yo. He finished nowhere in a bumper at Fairyhouse on New Year's Day 2012 and hasn't been seen since.

The figures banded about for Teelin Star after his p2p wins were astronomical. I'd say connections are kicking themselves now.

RichieLawlor

The best one ever was JP outbidding Clive Smith for Garde Champetre. Think it was close to half a mill.

Smith bought Kauto Star a short time later for less.

Overthelast

tipster wrote: »

i hear jp has bought jezki unreal money paid id say

That would be a hefty purchase, especially after forking out for waheeb. What's the saying, if you can't beat them.....buy them! Wish him luck if he did, he supports the game.

mr.jingle

Jp has got some raw deals when splashing the cash.

Garde Champetre although winning a few Cross Country races he was a very expensive buy.
Didn't he buy a horse McCoy rode at Ffos Las a couple of years ago for Rebecca Curtis for big money, Made in Time i think it was has barely won anything of note since. Think he also had a hand in the buying of Green Monkey when he sold for a few million only to be retired without winning a race. But as was said he puts plenty into the racing coffers so couldn't begrudge the man he has the money so why not spend it on something you love!

NewApproach

Whatever about spending €375k for a bumper winner, sending him to Tony Martin is truly baffling!

Colonel Sanders

Re Golantilla this was posted on Betfair:

Golantilla looked visually impressive when winning his bumper at Cork but it was a below average race. On the day the three 2 mile hurdle races were run 7 seconds, 8 seconds and 10 seconds faster than the bumper. The point to point race he won was also an average enough event. His pedigree is very ordinary and his sire has no horse with an Official Rating over 150. On what we have seen so far the horse is way overhyped and overpriced.

Hulk Hands

[QUOTE=Colonel Sanders;82605832

If I was ever in a position to own a bumper/point winner I think you'd have to sell. I mentioned Cousin Vinny & Dunguib above but I remember heading telephone numbers being offered for Rathmore Castle a few years back too. Just think that while it would be painful to sell a horse & then see it go right to the top if these kind of prices are floating about its simply basic economics.[/QUOTE]

Another point is that a hyped horses value will rarely vastly exceed the price when it's coming out of it's bumper or novice days. The game is all about excitement over potential. It's shocking how much a horses price level's off once it has become exposed at the top level, despite the fact that it could still win countless races.

Colonel Sanders

Hulk Hands wrote: »

Another point is that a hyped horses value will rarely vastly exceed the price when it's coming out of it's bumper or novice days. The game is all about excitement over potential. It's shocking how much a horses price level's off once it has become exposed at the top level, despite the fact that it could still win countless races.

Gigginstown had a horse last year, complete hound but had ability. His Excellency. Was sold for 30k. To me it looked a decent bit of business, he will never be top class but would be a decent handicapper to give you a few runs on Saturdays for a year or 2

Compare his price to some of the horses mentioned above :eek:

hucklebuck

I was in Henrys at the start of December, he said someone is interested in Pierlow and we could get 15k - 20k for him and he hadn't even jumped a hurdle then. We bought him in June for 6k.

Finans Rainbow was around 8k in Goffs as far as I know.

It's crazy money being paid for gelded horses alright.

hucklebuck

tipster wrote: »

i hear jp has bought jezki unreal money paid id say

Probably another good horse ruined!!

NewApproach

hucklebuck wrote: »

Probably another good horse ruined!!

Are you saying that the person who pays the bills for a horse is somehow linked to it's performance on the track?

RichieLawlor

NewApproach wrote: »

Are you somehow saying that the person who pays the bills for a horse is somehow linked to it's performance on the track?

You've heard of go faster stripes right? Well the McManus hoops could stop a lorry.

tipster

it will be very interesting what a horse local to me moyle park will make at the sales in a couple of weeks time he was very impressive winning first time up at leopardstown at christmas.cost 42,000 as a foal and his current owner got him for 10,000 6 months ago.i wouldnt be surprised if he made 250,000

Colonel Sanders

Just flicking through my copy of One Jump Ahead

In Anthony Bromley's section very few prices are mentioned. One horse Wilton Milan cost £85,000. He only ran ok against Gevrey Chambertain in a novice hurdle. A "two season project" according to Bromley

In the English Pointers section we have the following:

- Avidius Cassius £85,000
- Nitrogen. A winning pointer. Was bought as a foal for €170,000

In the Irish Pointers section things really hot up

- Blackwater King £85,000 (took 3 attempts to win a maiden hurdle)
- Bonisland £125,000 (classy enough individual)
- Classical Twist £220,000
- Clondaw Kaempfer £130,000 (looked potentially top class before the Challow)
- Clondaw Knight £140,000 (think this one has been beaten in a bumper)
- Grey Monk €210,000 (ran a promising race over Xmas in a red hot maiden hurdle)
- O'Faolain's Boy £100,000 (has won a bumper & I think a maiden hurdle for Rebecca Curtis)
- Old Kilcash £300,000 (placed in a bumper)
- Outlawed Tunes £140,000
- Rough Justice €170,000 (already beaten in 2 bumpers)
- Teelin Star while not sold reputed offers of £400,000 are mentioned. His reputation has been tarnished since
- Theatre Evening €175,000

Crazy money. I wonder how many will actually end up winning a Grade 1

The book was published before a few major autumn sales also

Colonel Sanders

John Hales had a horse run in the listed bumper at the Paddy Power Meeting. Cost £310,000 after winning a bumper last season

rossom

tipster wrote: »

it will be very interesting what a horse local to me moyle park will make at the sales in a couple of weeks time he was very impressive winning first time up at leopardstown at christmas.cost 42,000 as a foal and his current owner got him for 10,000 6 months ago.i wouldnt be surprised if he made 250,000

He made my Stephen's Day along with everyone else I was with and I think he's potentially a very, very good horse. I would think 250k is in the ballpark of what he will go for and I'll be very interested to see who buys him and where he will go. If I'm happy with his new trainer I'll definitely investigate to putting a wager on him for the Champion Bumper.

jayroyal

It seems to be a very profitably business once you get them to win first time up.
I was thinking last night what is the tax rules on profits made when the owner pulls off a huge sale like this.

John Hales and John Kiely seem to be the two specialists trainers at sending out bumper horses to win first time out and sell them on straight away for huge figures.

Brightwells seems to be a gift from heaven for this owners and breeders.

One thing no one knows is how teed up these horses are first time out, it is highly likely some of these horses have ran in 5 - 6 schooling races before hitting the track. This really could give them a serious edge in some bumper races and maiden point to points.

Moyle Park looks a serious horse and the one I would be most affair of for Golantilla in the Champion bumper. I'd say he'll go for over £300,000

SRFC

If the owners want to spend that amount of money then let them because they seem happy to pay over the odds,


On P2P winners half of the fields in these races wouldnt beat the stable dog at willie mullins's yard and are ''trained'' by sheep farmers sometimes anything with a bit of ability will win one of these p2p's by 20 length's and the owners are in clover come the sale's


also I love the comments from the winning jockeys ''Best horse ive ever ridden'' ''better than Denman was'' ''aeroplane'' and the like of hales and brookhouse fall for it but then again these wealthy people arent in the game to make money so its all fodder.

Imhof Tank

SRFC wrote: »

On P2P winners half of the fields in these races wouldnt beat the stable dog at willie mullins's yard and are ''trained'' by sheep farmers sometimes anything with a bit of ability will win one of these p2p's by 20 length's and the owners are in clover come the sale's


.

You might win an older aged maiden handy with a small bit of ability but you will definitely not be selling a 7yo point winner for 200k or anything like it.

The 4yo maidens are where its at - super competive and you will not win one of those anywhere first time out without class.

Imhof Tank

jayroyal wrote: »

Brightwells seems to be a gift from heaven for this owners and breeders.

Yes for the lucky few - 5% of the market maybe.

For the other 95% - some are never for sale, some will make the track or stay PTPing as fun horses for small owners, some will mature into commercial types and then be sold, plenty are destined for the factory unfortunately.

Winning Ways Racing

tipster wrote: »

it will be very interesting what a horse local to me moyle park will make at the sales in a couple of weeks time he was very impressive winning first time up at leopardstown at christmas.cost 42,000 as a foal and his current owner got him for 10,000 6 months ago.i wouldnt be surprised if he made 250,000

He'll make a lot more than that. Supposed to have size and scope.

RichieLawlor

I wonder how much it would take to persuade connections to part with Sprinter Sacre

HillFarmer

Speaking as a outsider to the racing industry, how much would a mare cost to run in a point to point. WOuld you get something for 5K?

Few of us at work are thinking of organising a syndicate and a neighbour of ours is a trainer. Just want to ahve a rough idea

Winning Ways Racing

RichieLawlor wrote: »

I wonder how much it would take to persuade connections to part with Sprinter Sacre

If he was for sale, I'd say £2-3 million but who knows, there is no precedent. First Gold was sold for €1 million I think and Baracouda was thrown in. Sprinter Sacre would be a much better buy.

ste2010

Winning Ways Racing wrote: »

If he was for sale, I'd say £2-3 million but who knows, there is no precedent. First Gold was sold for €1 million I think and Baracouda was thrown in. Sprinter Sacre would be a much better buy.

It would hardly be an investment would it?

barney4001

ste2010 wrote: »

It would hardly be an investment would it?

NO WAY WOULD HE WIN IT IN PRIZE MONEY

finbarrk

HillFarmer wrote: »

Speaking as a outsider to the racing industry, how much would a mare cost to run in a point to point. WOuld you get something for 5K?

Few of us at work are thinking of organising a syndicate and a neighbour of ours is a trainer. Just want to ahve a rough idea

You would get plenty of mares to P2P for €5k. Mares are cheap.

HillFarmer

Cheers Just found the link to the sales reports today, seems you can buy fillies with good pedigree fairly right.

dmcol

there are heaps of mares out of training at the minute with most going to the factory, ask your local trainer to source one for you on a free lease and use your seed money on training fees and entries instead. an owner/breeder would rather his horse run for somebody else rather than rot away in the field where it is still costing him/her eating their forrage

efc67

Imhof Tank wrote: »

You might win an older aged maiden handy with a small bit of ability but you will definitely not be selling a 7yo point winner for 200k or anything like it.

The 4yo maidens are where its at - super competive and you will not win one of those anywhere first time out without class.

Spot on this........We bought 1 as a 3 year old and ran him in a maiden p2p when he was 4....beaten 52 lengths 5th....we rushed him....ran another 4 times and was placed 3 times....once beaten 5 lengths by Love Rory...who has since went on to win a nice few races under rules.....Anyway we put him out to the field for the summer, and came back a much stronger horse....First run of the new season he hacked up by 6 lengths.....we sold him in Brightwells in Cheltanham in December for €53,000.....if we hadn't of rushed him and won 1st or 2nd time out, you could have easily trebled that figure....you learn by your mistakes.......but 4y/o winning p2p maidens is where the money is at

SRFC

efc67 wrote: »

Spot on this........We bought 1 as a 3 year old and ran him in a maiden p2p when he was 4....beaten 52 lengths 5th....we rushed him....ran another 4 times and was placed 3 times....once beaten 5 lengths by Love Rory...who has since went on to win a nice few races under rules.....Anyway we put him out to the field for the summer, and came back a much stronger horse....First run of the new season he hacked up by 6 lengths.....we sold him in Brightwells in Cheltanham in December for €53,000.....if we hadn't of rushed him and won 1st or 2nd time out, you could have easily trebled that figure....you learn by your mistakes.......but 4y/o winning p2p maidens is where the money is at

What was behind him in the race he won a load of ''horses'' slower than the trainers stable dog or was it a decent maiden,I dont go pointing so I might be ignorant in thinking a lot of useless animals run in the maidens to make the numbers up

efc67

SRFC wrote: »

What was behind him in the race he won a load of ''horses'' slower than the trainers stable dog or was it a decent maiden,I dont go pointing so I might be ignorant in thinking a lot of useless animals run in the maidens to make the numbers up

The 2nd horse was called Hellorboston...he won a p2p maiden 3 weeks later, was then sold to D McCain............he made his debut on the track at Sedgefield on St Stephens day and won by 14 lengths............The 3rd horse Sergeant Matte....went on to win his maiden p2p in December....he hasn't gone under rules yet..........the 4th horse was Rolling Maul....he ran once again in a p2p and was beaten 2 lengths second.............all good horses like....you really should go along to a p2p....where you might have some horses making up the numbers...in the 4y/o maidens, you will see some quality young horses........Anyways my horse was called "Four Shuck Men"....he is in training with Jamie Snowden over in England, and he hasn't ran yet....but when he does i will be having a big punt on him....a really honest horse ;-0

rossom

Any regrets about selling him efc? Was it just you who owned him or was there a few of you?

efc67

rossom wrote: »

Any regrets about selling him efc? Was it just you who owned him or was there a few of you?

Hard to answer that.................maybe if he starts winning some nice races in England...well yeah maybe.......we have another one now....just turned 4.......by Vinnie Roe....so hoping to have some fun with him........oh their was 4 of us ....hence the "Four Shuck Men"

rossom

efc67 wrote: »

Hard to answer that.................maybe if he starts winning some nice races in England...well yeah maybe.......we have another one now....just turned 4.......by Vinnie Roe....so hoping to have some fun with him........oh their was 4 of us ....hence the "Four Shuck Men"

When I re-read the name I instantly regretted asking how many of you were there! Hopefully he makes up into a nice horse.

rossom

According to Jamie Snowden's website he is for sale. Bit odd considering he was only sold in November! Also a word of warning with regards to having a sizeable bet on him for his debut which is Jamie Snowden has only ever had the 1 bumper winner.

efc67

rossom wrote: »

According to Jamie Snowden's website he is for sale. Bit odd considering he was only sold in November! Also a word of warning with regards to having a sizeable bet on him for his debut which is Jamie Snowden has only ever had the 1 bumper winner.

He was bought by a agent Tom Malone.....Tom is just sitting on him waiting for the right money to come in.........I get what your saying about Snowdens record, but having seen what the horse can do, he would really have to do something bad to him.......oh and i would be very surprised if his first run was in a bumper.

ste2010

Are their trainers that are dedicated to p2p and are the costs associated a little but cheaper?

rossom

Yeah was thinking he'd start over hurdles myself too efc.

efc67

ste2010 wrote: »

Are their trainers that are dedicated to p2p and are the costs associated a little but cheaper?

Yeah their are p2p trainers and costs probably are a bit cheaper than a trainer who trains under rules......But its still not cheap.........say €800 a month for trainer....then you will have vet fees, shoes.....cost of taking horses to meetings...plus entry fees, which are €50 for a p2p race

rossom

You going to invest in another horse efc or do you own any others at the momet?

efc67

rossom wrote: »

You going to invest in another horse efc or do you own any others at the momet?

Yeah we have another one....not named yet...but i am sure "Four" will be in the name He is by Vinnie Roe....he has been schooled over fences ...no problems...probably wont run him till about April/May...and only if 100% fit....or we might let him out for the summer and bring him back for a run in the Fall Oct/Nov

rossom

efc67 wrote: »

Yeah we have another one....not named yet...but i am sure "Four" will be in the name He is by Vinnie Roe....he has been schooled over fences ...no problems...probably wont run him till about April/May...and only if 100% fit....or we might let him out for the summer and bring him back for a run in the Fall Oct/Nov

Hope he is a gooden for you! Guessing he'll go the P2P route as well yeah? Who is the dam? I'll keep an eye out for him!