When your motor tax is more than your car is worth?

Atlantic Dawn

With motor tax on the older barges approaching €2k a year when the time comes that your annual motor tax is costing more than your car is worth, do you just have to say enough is enough and change car purely for this reason or should you live in the zero depreciation era where your main cost is the motor tax?

Mine is worth less than the €1000/1100 ish to tax it.

It's not the main cost though, €4k ish per annum on petrol.

In saying that I don't think I'll have the ZT in 2014, I'll have it three years in Aug. Only paid €2250 for it so it being worth nothing now doesn't bother me really. Whatever replaces it won't be cheaper to tax.

biddy21

car tax is 3 mths out at the moment, 170 euro for 3mths,

Stheno

Have you ever heard of total cost of ownership OP?

that's what I base my car ownership on.

I own it outright, so on a yearly basis, I pay 710e to tax it, approx.€450 to insure it, and then I pay about 25e for every 100 miles I want to drive.

So overall I've base costs of €1160 then depending on my mileage which is about 10k, I've another 2500e in petrol.

Factor in €500 for servicing and the NCT

Total cost for me? €4160 per year if I do 10k miles, or €80 per week, less than a night out for most.

At 5k miles (I drive to work so lets say I quit that), it's €55 per week, less than €8 per day, less than a packet of fags.

I don't go out that much, don't go on fancy holidays, like my car, and tbh, it probably costs me a lot less than most people with post 2009 cars still on finance.

To be fair he is on about the over 3000cc band 2k per annum motor tax is a fair ole lump of cash in comparison to 1k or less

Stheno

RoverJames wrote: »

To be fair he is on about the over 3000cc band 2k per annum motor tax is a fair ole lump of cash in comparison to 1k or less

Still adds less than 25e per week to my figures, for a car I'd like, and the freedom it would give me, I'd struggle to say no, but then you have to factor in that I drive my car as I like it and it's my treat/hobby/whatever.

If I'd the money I'd buy something like an XK and be damned but I don't

I'm about to quit the fags, and will save at least €60 a week by doing so.

You should have got a gtv with a proper engine in it so

Stheno

RoverJames wrote: »

You should have got a gtv with a proper engine in it so

I'm going to be saving up to get a car with a proper engine in it :P

That was very mean RJ

thenightrider

Ive paid more taxing my car then i payed for the car its still a great car and as long as it keeps going ill keep driving it cost me about the price of a weeks fuel on upkeep last year and it does about 40k miles a year roll on 200k on her

dgt

According to the revenue, the open selling market price of my 406 is €2000... How do these figures get generated does anyone know?

The car is probably worth €500 tops, €710 a year to tax. Basic servicing approx £150 (previous estimated mileage for the year was 15k miles, have 11k miles put up in the last 5 months. Excluding stuff like wipers, brake fluid, 75 synth, coolant etc that's every 2 years and to be factored in accordingly)

And it's still a wobbly heap!

visual

It's a disgrace having such high tax on older vehicles. It's now ridiculous to tax a 3L older car
Green party and do gooders have turned this country into a horrible place to be a motorist.

IIRC lowest OMSP is 2k.

antodeco

One of my cars, that I dont drive a huge amount is broken down roughly as:

€52 py tax
c €500 py service (doesnt cost this, but averaging it out every 2 years)
c €350 py on fuel (depends how much I drive it, but on average)

So it costs me €1000 py to appreciate the car.

My daily driver costs:

€400 py tax
c €350 py service
c €1600 py in petrol

This costs me roughly €2500 per year to run

I get the bus a huge amount into work:

€85 per month
roughly €1000 per year

Would I pay an extra €1500 per year to drive my own car instead of getting the bus? Bloody sure I would!

galwaytt

'00 Seicento: cost me €478 so far, and €330 to tax !! That's more than the 'famous' 58 new A6's cost to tax !

porsche959

visual wrote: »

It's a disgrace having such high tax on older vehicles. It's now ridiculous to tax a 3L older car
Green party and do gooders have turned this country into a horrible place to be a motorist.

Tbh it doesn't have a heck of lot to do with the green party. More to do with the country being bankrupt and drivers of decent cars being an easy mark for the government/IMF to raise cash.

porsche959

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

With motor tax on the older barges approaching €2k a year when the time comes that your annual motor tax is costing more than your car is worth, do you just have to say enough is enough and change car purely for this reason or should you live in the zero depreciation era where your main cost is the motor tax?

Don't really understand the logic of this. Just drive the car you want to drive if you can afford to drive and run it.

listermint

porsche959 wrote: »

Tbh it doesn't have a heck of lot to do with the green party. More to do with the country being bankrupt and drivers of decent cars being an easy mark for the government/IMF to raise cash.

Plenty to do with massive jumps in motortax since 2008 came on board to reclaim the so called 'lossed revenue' to subsidise newer vehicles.

so yes everything to do with the green party.

Alanstrainor

Last week, when I was staring at my sparse looking bank account, after a relatively expensive Christmas, I began to wonder how I could justify the 1080 tax bill that will be landing on my doorstep in 3/4 months.

I actually went for a drive to prove to myself I was at least some what sane...just feeling that rush when I hit the loud pedal and accelerated hard with the gorgeous sound of a straight six pulling me along was enough to convince me. I don't intend on selling it any time soon!

ShadowHearth

Right, in my opinion any petrol head, who even thinks that he is doing financially okay, but still does not like paying that motor tax, should go and live with bangornomics at least for one year. It's quite a huge eye opener.

I drove a nice powerfull car with 2.5 tax. It's was quite a lot for me. When it was all adding up with insurance and petrol costs it made baby Jesus cry.
So I had to go bangornomics 500eu ford mondeo. Cheap tax, cheap insurance, fantastic mpg ( 25mpg for me is quite a good figure, so whatever ford had was fantastic ). It saved me a fortune and gave me a chance to stand up financially again. Here goes "but". As much as it was great cheap motoring it was souls destroying for me to drive it everyday or even look at it. Don't understand me wrong, I loved and respected it, but it was just torture to be driving it.
After a year a decided it was enough, I got sick of being embarrassed to show up in my car, driving something which has as much flavour as plain spunge. I realised how much of a petrol head I am and that I cannot own A to B car.
I bough a lot more expensive car then mondeo. It's more to insure, tax, mpg a lot worse too.
I don't really mind paying that higher Tax, because I realised now how much driving means to me. Driving bangornomics was a great lesson. I better pay that higher tax if needed, but at least every single time I drive somewhere I will drive in something that puts a smile on my face. Even if tax will become higher then its value I will still "value" car as in "smiles given", not "money offered" way.

galwaytt

porsche959 wrote: »

Tbh it doesn't have a heck of lot to do with the green party. More to do with the country being bankrupt and drivers of decent cars being an easy mark for the government/IMF to raise cash.

'decent cars' ?

A new A6 or 520d is more than 'decent' and yet costs no more than €280 a year to tax..........that's LESS than my €478 Seicento costs to tax.

This is a direct hangover from the Green Party and it's ludicrous 'emissions' based tax.

Don't get me wrong: I'm all for low tax. But it has to be for everyone, not just the 'haves/politicians'. As-is, they've just created a two-tier system, and penalising the 'don't-haves'.

djimi

Driving is a hobby. Some people pay a grand a year to play golf; I pay more than the average motorist to drive a performance car that I get great pleasure from driving, not just some box on four wheels that gets me from A to B. Thats the way I look at it.

If you can afford it and you genuinely love driving the bigger car then whats the issue? Motor tax is ridiculous in Ireland, but its just a fact of life in this country unfortunately. Its the same arguement as trying to work out MPG on a performance car; some things you just have to accept and not look to question too much. If you want to drive an Integra its going to cost more to run. If you want an old 7 series BMW or whatever its going to cost a lot to tax; most likely mor than the car is worth. No point in trying to rationalize it or youll never drive the car you want to drive. Its not a rational decision!

MrDerp

Though I paid up front for my last 2 cars, I factor in the depreciation of my car subsequently in calculating my overall cost of motoring. To simplify, I estimate total depreciation over the time I intend to keep it and divide it evenly among the months. Cost of motoring then equals Depreciation + estimated servicing + petrol + tyres + tax + insurance

I try, then, to keep my cost of motoring under 550/month all-in. My running sum went up considerably with petrol prices, so now I'm planning to keep the car an extra 6 months to a year, which brings it down around 520/month.

When I next buy a car, I'll weigh up the acceptable cost of motoring once more. I will want something more powerful with the same or better comfort next time out, and I like toys. This will mean more petrol costs, more servicing costs, more tax and insurance (probably) but hopefully a bit less on tyres (I currently have an odd size). If I want to keep to 550/month, this will mean a lower purchase price available to me (or I must keep the car for longer). I might go nuts and throw an extra 100/month towards it, depending on factors such as kids mortgage etc (which will all hopefully be along soon)

My current depreciation cost is 135 euro i.e. I estimate my car physically costs me that. If other running costs went up by 100, I'd only have 35 euro depreciation to play with, or 1680 over 4 years. That would mean the car could only start at 4100, whereas my current car started at 11000. Would I drive an old luxobarge worth 4100? Youbetcha I would, as long as my overall cost of motoring was manageable (I'd have another 1200/year towards tax, servicing and petrol)

So, in short, I'm not overly worried about the 'value' of my car. It's just a function in my cost of motoring. Tax/Insurance/Car Value are all just parameters in the function. I drive a car I like within the confines of what I'm welling to spend on it. I'd be more than happy in an 8 year old barge - what's stopped me in the past has been issues with driving experience and insurance.

If I want something a bit special in future, I'll weigh up the pros and cons of increasing my monthly cost of motoring. 550/month is already serious money to be shelling out on motoring. I can probably (hopefully) go a bit higher next time out and I will basically want to go up a class (C to D) and will buy whatever fits the costs, even if petrol doubles in price and I end up bangernomics - picking up a steal because wastes their motoring expenditure on shinyness.

Tea 1000

galwaytt wrote: »

'decent cars' ?

A new A6 or 520d is more than 'decent' and yet costs no more than €280 a year to tax..........that's LESS than my €478 Seicento costs to tax.

This is a direct hangover from the Green Party and it's ludicrous 'emissions' based tax.

Don't get me wrong: I'm all for low tax. But it has to be for everyone, not just the 'haves/politicians'. As-is, they've just created a two-tier system, and penalising the 'don't-haves'.

Emissions based tax is still better than cc based tax.
A percentage of the OMSP of the car might be considered the fairest method, but many wouldn't go for that. Tax on fuel is the other alternative, but that's a non-runner either. CC based tax always maddened me, pure daft. GVW would make more sense even than cc.

galwaytt

Tea 1000 wrote: »

Emissions based tax is still better than cc based tax.
A percentage of the OMSP of the car might be considered the fairest method, but many wouldn't go for that. Tax on fuel is the other alternative, but that's a non-runner either. CC based tax always maddened me, pure daft. GVW would make more sense even than cc.

Oh I agree, but emissions based should extend to cover any vehicle for which that data is available. It's been and EU requirement for over a decade, but anything between that date and 2008 is 'forced' onto cc tax.

I agree, cc-based is a BS system.

visual

porsche959 wrote: »

Tbh it doesn't have a heck of lot to do with the green party. More to do with the country being bankrupt and drivers of decent cars being an easy mark for the government/IMF to raise cash.

This was FF/Greens system for cheap tax for new cars with Green party lapping up the credit because the word CO2 was included. This was a sly way to boost sales and shift the burden onto the less well off. Banks bailout, IMF, country broke was news that wasnt on the horizon back then.
FG / Lab increase it because overall take in motor tax was down because new cars are taxed for peanuts compared to CC system.

Drivers with less pay more to subsidise those with more. This transfer of burden isn't new and FG / Lab continue along the same path

What this is doing is pushing older cars off the road and costing more to have them replaced with newer cars. As we import 100% of new cars this cash leaves the state and is counter productive to growth. And finally back to the greens. A car that can be driven for 10 or 20 years is more eco friendly than a new box replaced every 5 to 8

Long rant but the stupidy of some policies is ridiculous and worse when a green badge is attached.

Pauvre Con

My car is 2.8. Fortunately it's British registered but this can only be a temporary state of affairs. Quite simply on principle I refuse to hand over so much money each year to the government. For me I'm going to have to suck it up and downsize quite dramatically.

visual

Feel for you as youll be close to 2k a year on motor tax for the pleasures of driving toll roads.

Tommyboy40

I pay over €3,300 each year in tax, I don't like doing it but I'm a petrolhead

Supergurrier

Don't start me on another tax rant

navara man

Tommyboy40 wrote: »

I pay over €3,300 each year in tax, I don't like doing it but I'm a petrolhead

what car is 3.300 a year to tax :eek:

readytosnap

navara man wrote: »

what car is 3.300 a year to tax :eek:

maybe he has 2 cars or 7 micras

Tommyboy40

navara man wrote: »

what car is 3.300 a year to tax :eek:

3 actually. Mercedes sl 500. Mercedes 220ce. BMW 318ic. If you want to own a real car you have to pay for it. If i could afford it I'd have 4 V12's

monkeypants

readytosnap wrote: »

7 micras

Just shot hot tea out of my nose at the thought of some crazy bloke with a Micra fetish.

Mr Benevolent

monkeypants wrote: »

Just shot hot tea out of my nose at the thought of some crazy bloke with a Micra fetish.

Well if it was the K10 turbo supercharged version I'd have a fetish for Micras too.

Bits_n_Bobs

Of course people with older cars with big engines should pay more tax as they are selfishly screwing up the environment cos everyone knows the environmental cost of actually building a new car is 0. Green logic....

sKeith

I have a '96 Car. I don't see why I am not able to go into emissions center, have my emissions certified and benefit from co2 based system. Currently I already need to have emissions verified every year or two to pass the NCT test.

68deville

have a 98 LEXUS GS300 with only 70000mls on it and it breaks my heart
but its troublefree and sails tru the nct,other than that it would be gone,
then again i only do bout 10 miles to work so fuel isnt a killer,any
long trips i use her diesel!!

sKeith

sKeith wrote: »

I have a '96 Car. I don't see why I am not able to go into emissions center, have my emissions certified and benefit from co2 based system. Currently I already need to have emissions verified every year or two to pass the NCT test.

What was your last g/km value of CO2 and how was it measured :-)

Tax is so high now on fuel that I've to drive a Prius and fuel still costs me 3200 a year and 400 tax.

And ye think ye are bad off ? :-)

visual

Mad_Lad wrote: »

Tax is so high now on fuel that I've to drive a Prius and fuel still costs me 3200 a year and 400 tax.

And ye think ye are bad off ? :-)

Just as well you reminded prius tax is more than its worth. . lol

September1

Easiest way to estimate CO2 if someone feels they need to calculate it is to find out how many l per 100km car uses and then multiply this number by 23.4 for petrol or 26.8 for diesel. Some common numbers for Brits who use imperial mpg:
MPG - Petrol - Diesel
20 330 378
25 264 302
30 220 252
35 189 216
40 165 189
45 147 168
50 132 151
55 120 137
60 110 126
65 102 116
70 94 108
75 88 101

This works on assumption that your engine is good enough to burn all fuel that it consumes.

H3llR4iser

sKeith wrote: »

I have a '96 Car. I don't see why I am not able to go into emissions center, have my emissions certified and benefit from co2 based system. Currently I already need to have emissions verified every year or two to pass the NCT test.

Because otherwise you wouldn't have to buy a new car to the benefit of the manufacturers and dealers, as simple as that

visual

September1 wrote: »

Easiest way to estimate CO2 if someone feels they need to calculate it is to find out how many l per 100km car uses and then multiply this number by 23.4 for petrol or 26.8 for diesel. Some common numbers for Brits who use imperial mpg:
MPG - Petrol - Diesel
20 330 378
25 264 302
30 220 252
35 189 216
40 165 189
45 147 168
50 132 151
55 120 137
60 110 126
65 102 116
70 94 108
75 88 101

This works on assumption that your engine is good enough to burn all fuel that it consumes.

Using above chart on C02 it be 252 euro instead of 2k currently on CC system.

Most driving big older cars don't have alot of money but of what they do have they put into their cars and keep them well maintained. Mine is 11 years old just over 100k wants for nothing but yearly NCT, ridiculous motor tax and slightly higher fuel prices than newer diesel makes it very expensive.
If I could figure out a way to uk reg & tax it and use it here I would.

A old big engine car isnt worth the motor tax and god love you if you think you can sell it for any money as everyone recoils at motor tax leaving very few buyers willing to part with cash.

In my opinion the government has decided that only those with higher incomes can drive biger safer cars. This was always FF / Green party wet dream come true. Especially put the blame on the Green party. Although I thought foolishly FG might just increase CO2 tax to bring it more into alignment with CC tax.

visual

H3llR4iser wrote: »

Because otherwise you wouldn't have to buy a new car to the benefit of the manufacturers and dealers, as simple as that

As we make no cars it's all imports and big chunk of change leaving the economy. That could be creating real jobs on the ground.

September1

visual wrote: »

Using above chart on C02 it be 252 euro instead of 2k currently on CC system.

Most driving big older cars don't have alot of money but of what they do have they put into their cars and keep them well maintained. Mine is 11 years old just over 100k wants for nothing but yearly NCT, ridiculous motor tax and slightly higher fuel prices than newer diesel makes it very expensive.
If I could figure out a way to uk reg & tax it and use it here I would.

A old big engine car isnt worth the motor tax and god love you if you think you can sell it for any money as everyone recoils at motor tax leaving very few buyers willing to part with cash.

In my opinion the government has decided that only those with higher incomes can drive biger safer cars. This was always FF / Green party wet dream come true. Especially put the blame on the Green party. Although I thought foolishly FG might just increase CO2 tax to bring it more into alignment with CC tax.

It is double unfair in fact, as CO2 for tax rating is measured in specific cycle that is a bit unconnected with reality - hence engines that deal well with this cycle get good rating and this may not translate into real emissions. For example large engines are very efficient at certain situations, like using motorways with heavy load, yet tax system forces people to choose cars that emit even more CO2 in actual use.

visual

Very unjust system all round.
Sometimes I feel like just ripping the reg plates off and just ignore check points and filling up on green diesel.
But I fear I get caught on first day.

166man

My road tax bill compared to my student part-time income is quite outrageous but I plan in advance for it and deliberately put money away every so often for it so it isn't a shock. It lets me drive the car that I like and enjoy so it's not that big a deal.

Of course nobody's going to argue that the rates aren't off the scale but if you prepare yourself in advance it's not the end of the world from where I see it. I understand people have more bills and costs etc but it's just another bill, plan for it and allow money for it and it's not that much of an issue.

I don't drink, smoke or go out on mad sessions 6 days a week so have that money left aside and tbh I'm all the better for it.

Joe 90

sKeith wrote: »

I have a '96 Car. I don't see why I am not able to go into emissions center, have my emissions certified and benefit from co2 based system. Currently I already need to have emissions verified every year or two to pass the NCT test.

Don't you see the errors in your thinking. Suppose you could benefit from the CO2 system and pay less tax. The result is that you would pay less tax. Think about it, man! We can't have people paying less tax.

CJhaughey

visual wrote: »

In my opinion the government has decided that only those with higher incomes can drive biger safer cars. This was always FF / Green party wet dream come true. Especially put the blame on the Green party. Although I thought foolishly FG might just increase CO2 tax to bring it more into alignment with CC tax.

Its social engineering at its finest, only the wealthy and powerful get to drive big cars, the rest of the plebs drive small shítboxes cause thats all they deserve.

Stealthirl

After over 6 years i sold my 93 Soarer TT yesterday for 4K
If i could have insured and taxed it for a year cheap and used it as a wkend car i would have kept it but i couldn't justify the cost anymore
2K+ just for insurance and tax

CJhaughey

Stealthirl wrote: »

After over 6 years i sold my 93 Soarer TT yesterday for 4K
If i could have insured and taxed it for a year cheap and used it as a wkend car i would have kept it but i couldn't justify the cost anymore
2K+ just for insurance and tax

And I just hope you remember to tell the next politician that comes to your door what you think of their policies with regard to motor tax.