The Haka

awec

Hopefully this isn't a stupid question, but when did the Haka become the spectacle that it is today at matches?

Was watching the New Zealand v Barbarians game (the famous one) and they just do the Haka at the side of the pitch, as if it's something to get out of the way. Not anywhere near as much intensity in it.

At what point did that change to doing it in the centre of the pitch, facing the opposition?

Just curious. Anyone know?

CatFromHue

The Haka has certainly evolved over time all right as it used to be something that did only away from home! Maybe the 70's or thereabouts was when it started to be done in NZ if I remember correctly from an ESPN Classic game I saw from that period.

I think Buck Shelford helped increased its intensity from the almost Morris dancing of the early days to the serious fierceness it's become but I don't know when or why they changed it to the teams facing each other.

A Kiwi friend of mine was saying that women don't do the Haka and she was giving out about the women All Blacks doing it.

CIARAN_BOYLE

CatFromHue wrote: »

The Haka has certainly evolved over time all right as it used to be something that did only away from home! Maybe the 70's or thereabouts was when it started to be done in NZ if I remember correctly from an ESPN Classic game I saw from that period.

I think Buck Shelford helped increased its intensity from the almost Morris dancing of the early days to the serious fierceness it's become but I don't know when or why they changed it to the teams facing each other.

A Kiwi friend of mine was saying that women don't do the Haka and she was giving out about the women All Blacks doing it.

Black Ferns??

The earliest good haka thats a challenge to the opposition rather than a demonstration of dancing where no one knows what they are doing and it is all a bit silly is at the 1987 RWC

jill_valentine

CatFromHue wrote: »

A Kiwi friend of mine was saying that women don't do the Haka and she was giving out about the women All Blacks doing it.

I'm afraid she's misinformed -



"A group of men and women perform a haka for Lord Ranfurly at Ruatoki, Bay of Plenty, in 1904"

There are different hakas, and different interpretations of them. The dude-only ones were specifically war hakas, but the nature of warriors has kinda changed -

New hakas can be "composed" for special occasions.

awec

Ah I youtubed for the 1987 world cup haka and got this as a result:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oG4uIEWdCAE

You weren't wrong about the morris dancing!

Losty Dublin

They have always done a Haka prior to games. It was formally adopted around 1905 in their first tour of the UK, the crowds at the Welsh games sang hymns in response. Most famously of all at the Cardiff test, the home team sang Land of my Fathers after the Haka; this is said to have been what introduced the singing of national anthems at sports internationals.

Incidentally, Fiji, Tonga and Samoa also do tribal war dances before their games but are less well noted for same

irishbucsfan

Losty Dublin wrote: »

They have always done a Haka prior to games. It was formally adopted around 1905 in their first tour of the UK, the crowds at the Welsh games sang hymns in response. Most famously of all at the Cardiff test, the home team sang Land of my Fathers after the Haka; this is said to have been what introduced the singing of national anthems at sports internationals.

Incidentally, Fiji, Tonga and Samoa also do tribal war dances before their games but are less well noted for same

Yes it has always been done, but it changed radically at one point to become what it is today. It used to be a bit tame.

I'd say the advent of professionalism might just have coincided with that change?

Losty Dublin

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Yes it has always been done, but it changed radically at one point to become what it is today. It used to be a bit tame.

I'd say the advent of professionalism might just have coincided with that change?

Yeah, that's right. The Haka itself is just the name given to what they do pre game; they write and devise different Haka's from time to time. They changed it a few years back and the new one finished with a cut on the neck. People complained and the NZRFC had to withdraw it and come up with a newer less offensive one

NIMAN

Compare these 2 Haka's

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GZmkFSp9wa4

1st one wouldn't scare me ma.

davidpfitz

I always say the pre-match entertainment, such as this dancing, should happen before the anthems.

Clareman

I think every team should be allowed 1 traditional event before kick off, be it national anthem or a Haka and that the home team's event should be last on.

Saying that, 1 of the best sporting spectacles I've been lucky to witness first hand was the Munster Haka and the atmosphere it generated.

thomond2006

Can Ireland do Riverdance with Michael Flatley during the Haka, Flatley's tapping would drown out the NZers' thigh and arm slapping. :pac:

CIARAN_BOYLE

thomond2006 wrote: »

Can Ireland do Riverdance with Michael Flatley during the Haka, Flatley's tapping would drown out the NZers' thigh and arm slapping. :pac:

Maybe Flatley can teach the national team how to riverdance

hardCopy

When did Adidas begin sponsoring NZ?

CIARAN_BOYLE

hardCopy wrote: »

When did Adidas begin sponsoring NZ?

Possibly 1999 but I'm not certrain

justsomebloke

thomond2006 wrote: »

Can Ireland do Riverdance with Michael Flatley during the Haka, Flatley's tapping would drown out the NZers' thigh and arm slapping. :pac:

I think a Cian Healy break dance would probably be a better bet

iDave

Clareman wrote: »

I think every team should be allowed 1 traditional event before kick off, be it national anthem or a Haka and that the home team's event should be last on.

Saying that, 1 of the best sporting spectacles I've been lucky to witness first hand was the Munster Haka and the atmosphere it generated.

The Munster Haka was pure cringe

who_me

iDave wrote: »

The Munster Haka was pure cringe

Oddly enough, most people who were at the game (Munster & Kiwi) seemed to think different. Different strokes for different folks, I guess.

testicle

iDave wrote: »

The Munster Haka was pure cringe

It certainly wasn't.

Cienciano

The rules that the IRB have to make sure everyone stands there and looks at the haka make me puke. Don't disrespect the sacred dance. But the all blacks using it to advertise stuff on tv is fine :rolleyes:
And the new zealand team who had a strop cos they wouldn't let the welsh sing a bloody song in response can piss right off. "We'll do it in the dressing room in private. But let a few journalists and photographers in" :rolleyes:

JustinDee

iDave wrote: »

The Munster Haka was pure cringe

It was hilarious.

I faced Haka when playing Kiwi ex-pat teams in Australia. You just face it to humour them, say 'whatever' then get on with the game.
Its part of the entertainment at an international and regardless what some might say, the majority of folk, even Aussies, love having it before a game against the NZers . . . so long as its just the 'Ka Mate' haka.

They can stick the 'Kapo O Pongo' and that stupid bloody throat-slitting gesture with it however. Despite what Murray Mexted claimed when it was first trotted out before the a game, there is no such thing as a 'new tradition'.

who_me

Cienciano wrote: »

The rules that the IRB have to make sure everyone stands there and looks at the haka make me puke. Don't disrespect the sacred dance. But the all blacks using it to advertise stuff on tv is fine :rolleyes:
And the new zealand team who had a strop cos they wouldn't let the welsh sing a bloody song in response can piss right off. "We'll do it in the dressing room in private. But let a few journalists and photographers in" :rolleyes:

I agree. I love the Haka, and would hate to see it fade/removed from the game. But it shouldn't be put up on a pedestal. If Wales are hosting the game, they choose whatever song they sing, and where, and when. The Haka is a challenge, and IMO demands a response. This proscribing of standing too near the Haka has less to do with any traditions or cultural respect and more to do with NZ trying to maximise their brand's standing.

Losty Dublin

iDave wrote: »

The Munster Haka was pure cringe

There was no Munster Haka; it was NZ and south sea Munster players setting out their own challenge. Personally, it was of the most emotional occasions I've seen in Irish rugby

Skid

If New Zealand want to do a silly war dance before every match, they should expect the opposition to respond in kind, and stop being so precious about it.

This is what should happen every time

CatFromHue

Buck Shelford said he really liked what the Irish did that they.

It's the IRB who have the problem with teams advancing.

awec

I liked the Welsh response.

who_me

Losty Dublin wrote: »

There was no Munster Haka; it was NZ and south sea Munster players setting out their own challenge. Personally, it was of the most emotional occasions I've seen in Irish rugby

I've been to some great games (Munster, Ireland & games as a neutral), and other sports, but I've never experienced an atmosphere like it. Sometimes you're at a game, and the noise slowly builds, someone will start a song, and a few more join in, and you eventually join in as you gain confidence (or drink takes hold....). For the Haka at that game, everyone just jumped up and left out a primal scream, and kept screaming for the duration. And then for the All Blacks' Haka - complete silence (other than the dog barking outside the stadium..).

Pity the old-style tours are a thing of the past. How many times can the top 8/10 keep playing each other yet still keep it as rare and special as this?

Losty Dublin

who_me wrote: »

Pity the old-style tours are a thing of the past. How many times can the top 8/10 keep playing each other yet still keep it as rare and special as this?

I miss the old tours as well. Apart from exposing touring teams to fans across the country, the mid week evening tests against local and provincal teams provided many an emotive game. The best we can hope for along that line are lower tier tourists like Canana or Fiji which hasn't the same appeal for obvious reasons.

who_me

Losty Dublin wrote: »

I miss the old tours as well. Apart from exposing touring teams to fans across the country, the mid week evening tests against local and provincal teams provided many an emotive game. The best we can hope for along that line are lower tier tourists like Canana or Fiji which hasn't the same appeal for obvious reasons.

I thought we were seeing a resurgence with mid-week games making a reappearance (haven't NZ, Australia and SA all played mid-week games in recent years?). With the RWC out of the way, perhaps we'll see some again.

For the touring side, you'd think it would be a great arena to blood some young A talent in a 'competitive' match, without risking any RWC ranking points. Plus, some of the NH club/provincial sides could easily pull in a crowd to compare with typical SH international attendances. Munster would sell out Thomond for a visit of any of major international side, Leinster could likely fill Aviva likewise etc. I'm sure several of the AP/T14 could fill Twickenham/Wembley/Stade de France.

A novelty for the fans, a unique opportunity for the players, and likely a significant enough cash opportunity.

(sorry for this OT tangent...)

CDM001

It became really famous during the first world cup

Swiwi

I guess I can't avoid posting on this one...

Buck Shelford is largely credited with making the Haka more impressive than in the past. It used to be only done for away matches (or ?home matches, can't remember), but at the behest of the sponsors, TV etc is now done every game. Not everyone is a fan, myself included to a certain extent, but I don't see it going anywhere any time soon. Sorry Stephen Jones.

As to when adidas started sponsoring the ABs, I can't recall TBH, but definitely post 1995. Caused some controversy at the time, as CCC was a NZ company, but they had nowhere near the $$$ that adidas could offer.

P.Walnuts

I'm in two minds about it, firstly I like the intensity it brings right before a game, gets everyone pumped up and builds the atmosphere.

But secondly I really get irritated by how sacred it is. So they can stand there slitting throats and what not and everybody has to tip toe around the thing so as not to upset "the tradition".

I think I reached my limit for it on the Lions tour 2005,there was so much Bulls**t before hand about BOD plucking a blade of grass and standing with the "youngest warrior" (Peel) or some other nonsense. Just get on with it.

What The?

iDave wrote: »

The Munster Haka was pure cringe

No, no it wasn't at all. Amazing spectacle. Only pity was Munster conceding a try with a few mins to go to deny a historic second win over the All Blacks.

MrDerp

No issue with the Haka, but crowd silence during it really bugs me. As a team that has never beaten NZ, we really should turn it around on them. I don't believe that our crowd are intimidated by the Haka, but I definitely think it's good for the Kiwi's to get their focus before kick-off.

I'd love, just once, for the Aviva crowd to get on their feet and jeer and whistle through it, let them know we mean business. Which is better, our boys facing them down in silence, or facing them with the crowd going mental in the background. Any time I've been to a game there's only about 2% of the people in my area willing to jeer. Mind you, at Ireland matches there's only about 2% of people willing to show any emotion other than the odd clap and groan.

ozymandias10

MrDerp wrote: »

No issue with the Haka, but crowd silence during it really bugs me. As a team that has never beaten NZ, we really should turn it around on them. I don't believe that our crowd are intimidated by the Haka, but I definitely think it's good for the Kiwi's to get their focus before kick-off.

I'd love, just once, for the Aviva crowd to get on their feet and jeer and whistle through it, let them know we mean business. Which is better, our boys facing them down in silence, or facing them with the crowd going mental in the background. Any time I've been to a game there's only about 2% of the people in my area willing to jeer. Mind you, at Ireland matches there's only about 2% of people willing to show any emotion other than the odd clap and groan.

we should sing during it not jeer. Sing the Fields or even Ó Ró Sé do Bheatha Bhaile

who_me

ozymandias10 wrote: »

we should sing during it not jeer. Sing the Fields or even Ó Ró Sé do Bheatha Bhaile

Very much agree. If we make noise during the haka, it should be to support our team not just jeer the opposition.

Like the Oro se do bheatha bhaile suggestion, it's a perfect sports song (short, simple, repetitive with a strong rhythm) - other than being in Irish!

Swiwi

MrDerp wrote: »

No issue with the Haka, but crowd silence during it really bugs me. As a team that has never beaten NZ, we really should turn it around on them. I don't believe that our crowd are intimidated by the Haka, but I definitely think it's good for the Kiwi's to get their focus before kick-off.

I'd love, just once, for the Aviva crowd to get on their feet and jeer and whistle through it, let them know we mean business. Which is better, our boys facing them down in silence, or facing them with the crowd going mental in the background. Any time I've been to a game there's only about 2% of the people in my area willing to jeer. Mind you, at Ireland matches there's only about 2% of people willing to show any emotion other than the odd clap and groan.

The silence is much more un-nerving. NZ crowds always jeer etc, so silence is more likely to have an effect. Same was actually said after the Munster match.

Sinbad_NI

Detest the way other teams now have to stand in a certain way while it's being done. Should be able to ignore or approach for example.

Swiwi

Sinbad_NI wrote: »

Detest the way other teams now have to stand in a certain way while it's being done. Should be able to ignore or approach for example.

I don't think that has anything to do with the NZ players, no doubt a TV or IRB edict.

Sinbad_NI

Swiwi wrote: »

I don't think that has anything to do with the NZ players, no doubt a TV or IRB edict.

Yeah agree pretty sure its a IRB thing not NZ.
Still think it's absolute balls though.

CatFromHue

It's an IRB rule, nothing to do with the Kiwi's.

Dave_The_Sheep

Bet they're not complaining though.

Swiwi

Dave_The_Sheep wrote: »

Bet they're not complaining though.

I'm guessing you're not a Kiwi, so. Despite your username...

JustinDee

Swiwi wrote: »

I'm guessing you're not a Kiwi, so. Despite your username...

Ha! Brilliant post

razorblunt

I think it's a great spectacle, I went to the Scotland - All Blacks game in November with a few rugby n00bs and they loved it. What I dislike as everyone mentioned so far is the tip toeing around it, teams should be allowed respond in whatever way they see fit, some of the "great" hakas have a response associated with it:

- Wales not moving in Cardiff (NZ then tried to argue it's tradition for the opposition to walk away first)
- The French Tricolour in Cardiff, with Chebal literally foaming at the mouth
- The Munster Haka/Wall of noise
- The Tonga simultaneous haka (after being requested to go 2nd at the RWC03)

What you don't want to see is another Cockerill type incident though, he himself admitted fault and getting carried away there. Add in here the PA with the drums at the Aviva if I hear that during a Haka I'll tip tackle the guy!

For what it's worth I also hate the tongue slitting dance, I actually think it's also long and boring and not half as blood pumping as the Ka Mate.

CatFromHue

I have a strong dislike to the throat slitting thing too. You could see during the RWC haka Nonu pointing at one of the French players before he did it and that's just acting the scummer to me.

Respect is a two way street afterall and that was completely dis respectful.

I can see why the IRB have ruled that the opposing team must stand still during the Haka though. No one wants the pre match rituals to go on all day with opposing teams thinking up new ways to show they're not intimidated etc.

Dave_The_Sheep

CatFromHue wrote: »

I can see why the IRB have ruled that the opposing team must stand still during the Haka though. No one wants the pre match rituals to go on all day with opposing teams thinking up new ways to show they're not intimidated etc.

I don't. It just gives the team doing the Haka a bit of a psychological advantage.

Then again, I'm a fan not a player. I wonder what the players who face it feel about the whole thing. Genuinely feel, not just what they're supposed to/prepared to say.

Clareman

The opposition have to stay in their half don't they? I don't know why they don't turn their back on it or continue their warm up

awec

Clareman wrote: »

The opposition have to stay in their half don't they? I don't know why they don't turn their back on it or continue their warm up

Think the IRB rule is you have to stand and respect it like teams do now.

CatFromHue

The Haka is like the anthems really and it would be poor form for a team to not adhere to the formalities for those.

Clareman

I agree that it's the same as the anthems, but it's also a major motivational advantage as well, lining out and doing your countries war dance while the opposition can only stand there and watch, but as I said earlier it's a great spectacle and something that makes NZ tests so special the fact that all NZ teams do it now makes a bit of a mockery of it, but that's a moot point.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tkf11xIJyno