Are doctors allowed have relations (sexual/non-sexual) with their patients?

Freemasonry

I can't seem to find any laws in Ireland that actually say it's illegal to have relations with your patients on a non healthcare-level. Obviously it would NOT be during the actual visit (ER, GP visit, etc) but I'm talking about actually exchanging contact details (in other words having some sort of romance).

I suppose the general answer will be no, but is it actually illegal or just really frowned upon (unethical) like uh I dunno, having a quick pull (ahem) while on flight an airplane (just an example lol, no wrong ideas lads).

DISCUSS.

Also just to add, I seen a movie recently that touched on this subject (relationships with a patient), so it sort of sparked up my imagination, it was a good movie too, I'm sure most of you have seen it.

TeddyTedson

I don't see a problem if the patient is mentally sound

IM0

right, so if your not pulling your nob on the plane what are you pulling and what has thsat got to do with patient doctor relationships

Corkfeen

Freemasonry wrote: »

I can't seem to find any laws in Ireland that actually say it's illegal to have relations with your patients on a non healthcare-level. Obviously it would NOT be during the actual visit (ER, GP visit, etc) but I'm talking about actually exchanging contact details (in other words having some sort of romance).

I suppose the general answer will be no, but is it actually illegal or just really frowned upon (unethical) like uh I dunno, having a quick pull (ahem) while on flight an airplane (just an example lol, no wrong ideas lads).

DISCUSS.

Also just to add, I seen a movie recently that touched on this subject (relationships with a patient), so it sort of sparked up my imagination, it was a good movie too, I'm sure most of you have seen it.

A horrible forceps image came into my head....

Standard Toaster

Freemasonry wrote: »

Also just to add, I seen a movie recently that touched on this subject (relationships with a patient), so it sort of sparked up my imagination, it was a good movie too, I'm sure most of you have seen it.

Analyze This?

doomed

No. No.

Doc - tell the patient to put her clothes on. You're a chiropodist for gods sake.

passive

Waitress?

drkpower

Freemasonry wrote: »

I can't seem to find any laws in Ireland that actually say it's illegal to have relations with your patients on a non healthcare-level.

It is not illegal.

And it is not unethical unless the doctor actually uses/abuses his position to form a sexual or emotional relationship with a patient.

1ZRed

You've high hopes for this up incoming prostate exam, don't you?

AnonoBoy

Non-sexual relations?

Like being friends?

I'm pretty sure a lot of doctors in small towns would be friends with their patients.

Gael23

Is it appropriate to have a friendship with a Doctor once you are no longer their patient? Not any sort of intimate relationship, just being in contact with each other

Donkey Oaty

The UK's General Medical Council has thought about this and here's what it says (basically, current patients: no, former patients: it depends.)

Gongoozler

To answer the OP, no its not illegal, but it is questionable when it comes to ethics. It is in the guide for professionals that they should maintain a professional relationship, but that's a guide anyway. It's not illegal.

To answer the most recent dude, of course it's not a problem. The doctor is not treating you, therefore there is no conflict.

Donkey Oaty

Gongoozler wrote: »

To answer the OP, no its not illegal, but it is questionable when it comes to ethics.

Especially if you are a paediatrician.

Gael23

Gongoozler wrote: »

To answer the OP, no its not illegal, but it is questionable when it comes to ethics. It is in the guide for professionals that they should maintain a professional relationship, but that's a guide anyway. It's not illegal.

To answer the most recent dude, of course it's not a problem. The doctor is not treating you, therefore there is no conflict.

That's what I thought. I was just thinking from the angle that we discussed things as part of a doctor/patient relationship that you may not discuss with anyone outside that.

medicine12345

Obviously a sexual relationship would be completely illegal, also any sort of relationship outside the clinic is not really right, it should remain a professional relationship. Where the lines may become blurred a bit is with a rural GP but even then its one thing being friendly with someone if you happen to see them somewhere but in terms of meeting up etc outside the clinic, i doubt it happens

Gael23

medicine12345 wrote: »

Obviously a sexual relationship would be completely illegal, also any sort of relationship outside the clinic is not really right, it should remain a professional relationship. Where the lines may become blurred a bit is with a rural GP but even then its one thing being friendly with someone if you happen to see them somewhere but in terms of meeting up etc outside the clinic, i doubt it happens

Does that still apply once the professional relationship has ended?

I think another complicating factor is when the doctor has treated other family members.

Gongoozler

medicine12345 wrote: »

Obviously a sexual relationship would be completely illegal, also any sort of relationship outside the clinic is not really right, it should remain a professional relationship. Where the lines may become blurred a bit is with a rural GP but even then its one thing being friendly with someone if you happen to see them somewhere but in terms of meeting up etc outside the clinic, i doubt it happens

Sorry but no you're wrong, it's not illegal.

Gongoozler

ryanf1 wrote: »

That's what I thought. I was just thinking from the angle that we discussed things as part of a doctor/patient relationship that you may not discuss with anyone outside that.

Well yes that would still apply, that they shouldn't discuss something confidential with someone other than you, without your consent.

medicine12345

Gongoozler wrote: »

Sorry but no you're wrong, it's not illegal.

haha where did you hear that? it may not be illegal in that you won't be put in prison but you will certainly be struck off.
I'm not allowed post a link here but if you google medical council professional conduct and go to page 18 its clearly stated.

medicine12345

ryanf1 wrote: »

Does that still apply once the professional relationship has ended?

I think another complicating factor is when the doctor has treated other family members.

Yeah. I mean it would be different if you knew them from before but then they shouldn't really be your doctor. It would just get a bit messy, easier to keep things professional if you can.

Gael23

medicine12345 wrote: »

Yeah. I mean it would be different if you knew them from before but then they shouldn't really be your doctor. It would just get a bit messy, easier to keep things professional if you can.

He won't be my doctor anymore. He's moved practice and for various reasons I can't follow, but I really liked and trusted him.

gordongekko

Probably just depends on what the girl looks like

medicine12345

ryanf1 wrote: »

He won't be my doctor anymore. He's moved practice and for various reasons I can't follow, but I really liked and trusted him.

Like I think it just might be a bit awkward. The best thing might be see him again in clinic if you want to speak to him again.

dodzy

ryanf1 wrote: »

He won't be my doctor anymore. He's moved practice and for various reasons I can't follow, but I really liked and trusted him.

Stalker?

Gongoozler

medicine12345 wrote: »

haha where did you here that? it may not be illegal in that you won't be put in prison but you will certainly be struck off.
I'm not allowed post a link here but if you google medical council professional conduct and go to page 18 its clearly stated.

I work in the industry, believe me I'm familiar with the guide. It's called a guide to professional conduct and ethics. And that's what it is, a guide. You could be struck off if fitness to practise is deemed effected but from my experience unless it affects their treatment of you, it would not likely be seen as anywhere near as striking off offence. You clearly don't have a clue.

Gael23

gordongekko wrote: »

Probably just depends on what the girl looks like

Were both guys

medicine12345 wrote: »

Like I think it just might be a bit awkward. The best thing might be see him again in clinic if you want to speak to him again.

probably correct there. i just really liked him and he moved without me knowing so I never got to end things the way I'd have liked to.

medicine12345

Gongoozler wrote: »

I work in the industry, believe me I'm familiar with the guide. It's called a guide to professional conduct and ethics. And that's what it is, a guide. You could be struck off if fitness to practise is deemed effected but from my experience unless it affects their treatment of you, it would not likely be seen as anywhere near as striking off offence. You clearly don't have a clue.

Don't tell me I don't have a clue. If you think a doctor can have a sexual relationship with a patient and not be destroyed you need your head examined.

Gongoozler

medicine12345 wrote: »

Don't tell me I don't have a clue. If you think a doctor can have a sexual relationship with a patient and not be destroyed you need your head examined.

Well by the media sure he or she could be destroyed, but by rules, which is what the actual question was, it's not illegal. I don't doubt it would be considered in detail by fitness to practise, but you can't say the person would be struck off.

_Whimsical_

I would think there would be legal issues with a doctor having a relationship with a current patient .A doctor patient relationship is a feduciary relationship legally speaking. That means that as the expert/professional/doctor you are obliged to act solely in the patients interest and that there can be no conflict of interest within that relationship. A doctor could easily leave himself/herself open to an accusation of undue influence in entering a romantic relationship with a patient. It wouldn't be criminal but they could find themselves on very shaky ground in civil law.
I'd imagine it would be seriously frowned upon in professional circles too.

drkpower

medicine12345 wrote: »

haha where did you hear that? it may not be illegal in that you won't be put in prison but you will certainly be struck off.
I'm not allowed post a link here but if you google medical council professional conduct and go to page 18 its clearly stated.

Have a read of the section again. It is only unethical if the doctor 'used his position' to form a sexual relationship with a patient. That is a very specific prohibition and is certainly not a prohibition on all sexual relationships between doctors and patients.

Gongoozler

_Whimsical_ wrote: »

I would think there would be legal issues with a doctor having a relationship with a current patient ....
It wouldn't be criminal...

its either illegal or its not. And it's not.

Gael23

I know it is unethical to have a romantic relationship and to have a relationship outside the surgery with a current patient considerably blurs boundaries.

I suppose I need to look at it from a doctors point of view in that they treat you and se that as their duty done but form my point of view as a patient its hard to see it quite like that.

Maphisto

gordongekko wrote: »

Probably just depends on what the girl looks like

And if they're concious at the time

Gongoozler

ryanf1 wrote: »

I know it is unethical to have a romantic relationship and to have a relationship outside the surgery with a current patient considerably blurs boundaries.

I suppose I need to look at it from a doctors point of view in that they treat you and se that as their duty done ut form my point of view as a patient its hard to see it quite like that.

So, sorry, you want to know if you could be friends with someone who was your gp?

Gael23

Gongoozler wrote: »

So, sorry, you want to know if you could be friends with someone who was your gp?

Not really friends, but I'm not able to move with him to continue as his patient.
As someone said, it's probably best that I try to get to his new surgery sometime and leave it at that.

medicine12345

drkpower wrote: »

Have a read of the section again. It is only unethical if the doctor 'used his position' to form a sexual relationship with a patient. That is a very specific prohibition and is certainly not a prohibition on all sexual relationships between doctors and patients.

Yes I understand what it says and I still stand by what I said. The doctor is using his position if he has a relationship with a patient as he more than likely wouldn't have met the patient if it wasn't for the fact that he was their doctor

drkpower

medicine12345 wrote: »

Yes I understand what it says and I still stand by what I said. The doctor is using his position if he has a relationship with a patient as he more than likely wouldn't have met the patient if it wasn't for the fact that he was their doctor

That is simply happenstance, it isn't 'using your position'. 'Using ones position' is a different animal altogether.

The language used in the ethical guide is very specific. You need to ask yourself why that form of words was used. It wasn't intended to - and it doesn't - prohibit all sexual relationships between doctor and patient.

Wishiwasa Littlebitaller

No. It's just wrong and immoral.

You could fcuk them with a cigar tube though. Apparently that doesn't* count* "sexual relations" you see.


*Old Arkansas law. May or not apply elsewhere in the world.

medicine12345

drkpower wrote: »

That is simply happenstance, it isn't 'using your position'. 'Using ones position' is a different animal altogether.

The language used in the ethical guide is very specific. You need to ask yourself why that form of words was used. It wasn't intended to - and it doesn't - prohibit all sexual relationships between doctor and patient.

Ah come on now, maybe if you want to be pedantic about it it isn't absolutley illegal but in reality it is drilled into you from day one never ever to have any sort of a sexual relationship with a patient. I think you know that and are just being technical. But in reality a sexual relationship with a patient can only bring trouble, what defence would you have if they said that you used your position?

drkpower

medicine12345 wrote: »

Ah come on now, maybe if you want to be pedantic about it it isn't absolutley illegal but in reality it is drilled into you from day one never ever to have any sort of a sexual relationship with a patient. I think you know that and are just being technical. But in reality a sexual relationship with a patient can only bring trouble, what defence would you have if they said that you used your position?

It is a quasi-legal requirement. One you said would invariably lead to someone being struck off. You absolutely need to be technical in such circumstances.

As for your question, you are getting thinks the wrong way round. If someone brought a disciplinary action against you, they would need to show that you used your position. Not vice versa.

I certainly agree that getting involved with patients, past or present, is not a good idea. But you have claimed it is illegal; that's wrong. That it would get you struck off; that's wrong. And that it is unethical; that's only correct in certain specific situations.

Maphisto

medicine12345 wrote: »

Ah come on now, maybe if you want to be pedantic about it it isn't absolutley illegal but in reality it is drilled into you from day one never ever to have any sort of a sexual relationship with a patient. I think you know that and are just being technical. But in reality a sexual relationship with a patient can only bring trouble, what defence would you have if they said that you used your position?

You'd have to marry them first so

medicine12345

drkpower wrote: »

It is a quasi-legal requirement. One you said would invariably lead to someone being struck off. You absolutely need to be technical in such circumstances.

As for your question, you are getting thinks the wrong way round. If someone brought a disciplinary action against you, they would need to show that you used your position. Not vice versa.

I certainly agree that getting involved with patients, past or present, is not a good idea. But you have claimed it is illegal; that's wrong. That it would get you struck off; that's wrong. And that it is unethical; that's only correct in certain specific situations.

You'd look well being brought up before the medical council and trying to defend having a sexual relationship with a patient. It is an abuse of position. It may not be illegal then but it certainly is wrong.

Gongoozler

ryanf1 wrote: »

Not really friends, but I'm not able to move with him to continue as his patient.
As someone said, it's probably best that I try to get to his new surgery sometime and leave it at that.

So you want something more, so are going to call into him at his new surgery? If I've gotten that right, that's quite inappropriate.

Gongoozler

medicine12345 wrote: »

You'd look well being brought up before the medical council and trying to defend having a sexual relationship with a patient. It is an abuse of position. It may not be illegal then but it certainly is wrong.

Wrong according to who though? Fitness to practise is just that, a committee set up to decide if you are fit to practise, and it entirely depends on the circumstances, which is why there are hearings, to hear evidence and both sides. If it interferes with your judgement or there's anything untoward going on because of this fact then that would come to light. A relationship between a doctor and patient does not automatically equal wrong doing. Hence why it's a guide. GUIDE!

Gael23

Gongoozler wrote: »

So you want something more, so are going to call into him at his new surgery? If I've gotten that right, that's quite inappropriate.

Without going into detail, I've got a few medical issues to deal with and he did a lot for me that no doctor had really done in the past, so I just will really miss his support. Hence I hate thinking I'm never going to see him again

Gongoozler

ryanf1 wrote: »

Without going into detail, I've got a few medical issues to deal with and he did a lot for me that no doctor had really done in the past, so I just will really miss his support. Hence I hate thinking I'm never going to see him again

So you're going to visit him as a patient?

Zed Bank

Nothing wrong with it imo. Whatever makes you happy I say.

medicine12345

Gongoozler wrote: »

So you want something more, so are going to call into him at his new surgery? If I've gotten that right, that's quite inappropriate.

You've got to be kidding me! So booking an appointment to see him as a patient would be 'inappropriate' but having sex with him wouldn't? ok...

Capt'n Midnight

Doctor Dave had slept with one of his patients and felt really guilty. No matter how much he tried, the sense of betrayal was overwhelming. But every once in a while he'd hear an reassuring internal voice say, "Don't worry, Dave. You aren't the first doctor to sleep with a patient and you won't be the last. Plus you're single. Just let it go."

But, invariably, the other voice would bring him back to reality by whispering, "Dave, you're a vet."

Gongoozler

medicine12345 wrote: »

You've got to be kidding me! So booking an appointment to see him as a patient would be 'inappropriate' but having sex with him wouldn't? ok...

Going to see him in professional capacity when it's not of a professional nature makes it inappropriate, especially as he's moving away.

If they were to start a relationship, obviously consensual, then yes seeing him whenever they want to is obviously up to them.