Kelly and Roche

mistermatthew

Will we ever have the same again? The two best cyclists in the world from our little island?

Does anyone know why these two came through to be so good, and why we've never had that caliber of cyclist since. Was it simply a quirk of coincidence?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TjyTeePick4

Fender76

Ask David Walsh.

MPFG

It was talent and you either got it or you aint

Mind you I still have high hopes for Dan Martin and other Roche off spring.......

wav1

1987 Kelly and Roche world number 1 and 2 at one stage
says it all really.
Funny enough back then in the day you were either a Kelly or Roche man.

Brian?

Kelly is the greatest sportsman this country every produced and Roche isn't far behind. I seriously doubt we'll ever produce one rider as good as Kelly again.

Cienciano

I remember at the time everyone was obsessed with cycling. All the kids got racing bikes for christmas.
But for someone who should be a national hero, I really don't have much time for Stephen Roche, it's hard to think of a more unlikable person in Irish sport. And the apple doesn't fall far from the tree imho.

ashleey

Cienciano wrote: »

I remember at the time everyone was obsessed with cycling. All the kids got racing bikes for christmas.
But for someone who should be a national hero, I really don't have much time for Stephen Roche, it's hard to think of a more unlikable person in Irish sport. And the apple doesn't fall far from the tree imho.

I've met him at the Leinster loop a few times and he seemed alright to me.

Regarding Kelly you should come and put some miles in around Carrick on Suir that would explain a lot of his grit and strength

MPFG

Cienciano wrote: »

I remember at the time everyone was obsessed with cycling. All the kids got racing bikes for christmas.
But for someone who should be a national hero, I really don't have much time for Stephen Roche, it's hard to think of a more unlikable person in Irish sport. And the apple doesn't fall far from the tree imho.

You are entitleed to your opinions but ' the most unlikeable person in Irish sport' is a bit over the top.......Anyway whether you like hm or not he was a great cyclist......As for the apple not falling far from the tree I presume you alluding to Nico who is not like his father imo and is a very likeable down to earth chap

Cienciano

MPFG wrote: »

You are entitleed to your opinions but ' the most unlikeable person in Irish sport' is a bit over the top.......Anyway whether you like hm or not he was a great cyclist......As for the apple not falling far from the tree I presume you alluding to Nico who is not like his father imo and is a very likeable down to earth chap

I was thinking that it puts him ahead of Stephen Ireland but from what I hear about him he's borderline special needs, so he's in a different category
But I don't like Roche one bit, and disagree with you on Nico. Never met either, but in any interviews I don't think they come across well at all, especially Stephen.
Kelly is a legend though :cool:

Brian?

Cienciano wrote: »

I remember at the time everyone was obsessed with cycling. All the kids got racing bikes for christmas.
But for someone who should be a national hero, I really don't have much time for Stephen Roche, it's hard to think of a more unlikable person in Irish sport. And the apple doesn't fall far from the tree imho.

Have you ever met him? Really nice fella, genuine and open. You'd be hard pushed to find a more likable person IMO. Sean Kelly would be one though, another genuinely nice guy.

MPFG

I really like most cyclists ...there a few prima donnas but on the whole cyclists are not only tough and dedicated sportsmen ( and women) who tend not to have the aloof and privledged attitude of most other top sports people have

Mayeb also becuase they are so accesible to the public on the road and do not have 'protection' , spend alot of time on their own and/or in pain they tend to be a far more ordianry likeable sportsperson

kilns

I met N. Roche right after one of his most gruelling mountain stages at the Tour 2 years ago entering his bus. He saw I was Irish and said hello, then went into his bus for a well earned shower and break, I was speaking to one of the mechanics and asked whats the chance he would pose for a photo, mechanic said he would check, two mins later he was out posing for a photo.

Also last year, was on the side of the road for the tour with the Irish flag out, a car which was in the lead caravan pulled to the side of the road, out gets Stephen, a few words to say hello and off again.

Both nice guys imo

NIMAN

As a non-cycling enthusiast, I'm afraid I cannot think of our great cyclists without thinking about all the controversy that has surrounded the sport in recent decades, if you know what I mean.

They may have been just great sportsmen but I'm afraid with the nature of the game, many will always wonder.

Junior

NIMAN wrote: »

As a non-cycling enthusiast, I'm afraid I cannot think of our great cyclists without thinking about all the controversy that has surrounded the sport in recent decades, if you know what I mean.

They may have been just great sportsmen but I'm afraid with the nature of the game, many will always wonder.

you lost me at non cycling, so no I don't know what you mean.

Halloween Jack

NIMAN wrote: »

As a non-cycling enthusiast, I'm afraid I cannot think of our great cyclists without thinking about all the controversy that has surrounded the sport in recent decades, if you know what I mean.

They may have been just great sportsmen but I'm afraid with the nature of the game, many will always wonder.

Kelly tested positive, there is evidence suggesting roche used EPO.......

NIMAN

I mean I am not a follower of the sport of cycling.
Worded badly, makes me sound like I am enthusiastic about non-cycling!

Edit: Thanks Halloween Jack for mentioning what I was thinking. Its the elephant in the room when it comes to any cyclists achievements, so perhaps to call one of them our greatest ever sportsman is pushing things a little.

Colonialboy

mistermatthew wrote: »

Will we ever have the same again? The two best cyclists in the world from our little island?

Does anyone know why these two came through to be so good, and why we've never had that caliber of cyclist since. Was it simply a quirk of coincidence?

I think back then the playing field was alot leveller in most sports between small and big nations.
The facilities and training options avail to Roche and Kelly in their junior days were probably much the same as those for the continental riders, albeit a bit more pasta versus potatoes and better climate.
But still they had some chance, whereas now given the pittance our govt throw into sports facilities and funding sports people coming thru are seriously disadvantaged.

Its the same for most sports, soccer, running. Ive no doubt the talent is in ireland and we have an inate abilitity to produce great coaches and great sportspeople but they start on the bottom rung.

furiousox

I always got the impression in Ireland that Roche is admired but Kelly is loved.

NIMAN

Colonialboy wrote: »

I think back then the playing field was alot leveller in most sports between small and big nations.
The facilities and training options avail to Roche and Kelly in their junior days were probably much the same as those for the continental riders, albeit a bit more pasta versus potatoes and better climate.
But still they had some chance, whereas now given the pittance our govt throw into sports facilities and funding sports people coming thru are seriously disadvantaged.

Its the same for most sports, soccer, running. Ive no doubt the talent is in ireland and we have an inate abilitity to produce great coaches and great sportspeople but they start on the bottom rung.

Or maybe the smaller nations aren't advanced enough to dope and not get caught, so they don't dope, and hence don't compete?

riparooo

Colonialboy wrote: »

I think back then the playing field was alot leveller in most sports between small and big nations.
The facilities and training options avail to Roche and Kelly in their junior days were probably much the same as those for the continental riders, albeit a bit more pasta versus potatoes and better climate.
But still they had some chance, whereas now given the pittance our govt throw into sports facilities and funding sports people coming thru are seriously disadvantaged.

Its the same for most sports, soccer, running. Ive no doubt the talent is in ireland and we have an inate abilitity to produce great coaches and great sportspeople but they start on the bottom rung.

Oh c'mon cycling is a minority sport in Ireland and one that requires very little in the provision of facilities for a juniors talent to shine through. At that stage there is enough scouts and talent spotters in the country to intervene at that point.

Blaming the govt on Ireland no having enough sports stars is ridiclous.

MPFG

riparooo wrote: »

Oh c'mon cycling is a minority sport in Ireland and one that requires very little in the provision of facilities for a juniors talent to shine through. At that stage there is enough scouts and talent spotters in the country to intervene at that point.

Blaming the govt on Ireland no having enough sports stars is ridiclous.

well the British have put a shed load of money into cycling and have seen the results on track and the road....you need to get kids young and support them with training and competition opportunites ....Who knows if that had happened 15 years or so ago we might have GT winner now

531

mistermatthew wrote: »

Will we ever have the same again? The two best cyclists in the world from our little island?

Does anyone know why these two came through to be so good, and why we've never had that caliber of cyclist since. Was it simply a quirk of coincidence?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TjyTeePick4

1. Very unlikely
2. Ditto
3. Athletes/cyclists/sportsmen of their caliber do not appear often. That's why we've had no-one quite as good since.
4. Yes, it was a coincidence.

mistermatthew

Cienciano wrote: »

I remember at the time everyone was obsessed with cycling. All the kids got racing bikes for christmas.

Yeah I imagine they must of. Which made me wonder why there wasn't a whole generation inspired by those two and resulting in more cyclists?
It seems like there were two world class riders and now no one near that top level those two reached.

Maybe Nico will finally realise potential with Saxo tinkoff

Beasty

I don't think it was pure co-incidence. You need to bear in mind Ireland had a few other quality riders around at the time and each one would be spurred on by the others - seeing what they were achieving and trying to compete both domestically as they were going through the ranks then on the international stage.

To a large extent this is part of the reason for the Team GB success - I don't think Jason Kenny would have been anywhere near as good if he didn't have Chris Hoy to "target" (and inspire him). For every guy/gall in their team there are probably half a dozen more at different stages of progression, learning from the guys who are doing the winning (and of course the quality coaching team). The money makes it a lot easier to identify the talent and then keep it within the sport, but I actually think someone like Cav would have made it regardless of the amount of money thrown at him once he was identified as a "talent" in the first place

PeadarCo

We also had Shay Elliot before them so it wasn't if they was the first even though the extend of their success stands out. They also seem to have come at a time when organisationally people got their act together at a National level. It would interesting what would have happened if the split in Irish cycling hadn't existed.

sy

Martin Earley was to some extent unfortunate to have been at his best when these two guys were about. Stage wins in the TDF and the Giro plus a few lesser races looks impressive when compared to our present crop of pros. He also played an important role in that famous win at the Worlds in 1987.

MPFG

well at present we don't even have very much home grown talent - a few but not alot

From the pros Matt Bremmeier and Dan Martin grew up in UK and are a product of that cycling system...While N Roche grew up in France and is a product of that country's cycling clubs

We should be thankful they declared for Irealnd tbh and I for one believe that their best is yet to come...

happytramp

MPFG wrote: »

We should be thankful they declared for Irealnd tbh and I for one believe that their best is yet to come...

God, I can't tell you how happy I'd be if Dan Martin had a stormer of a season. Imagine how great it would be watching him win Leige-Bastonge-Leige or a couple of Giro stages or going for a mountains classification.... Sigh, one can always dream.

MPFG

happytramp wrote: »

God, I can't tell you how happy I'd be if Dan Martin had a stormer of a season. Imagine how great it would be watching him win Leige-Bastonge-Leige or a couple of Giro stages or going for a mountains classification.... Sigh, one can always dream.

Well I think you wil be a happy bunny and go to the ball in the next year or 3 ...Its not as if we are asking for the unachieveable afterall
No reason why he can't win LBL, Fletche Wallone, Lombardy and or Tour of Catalyuna to name a few ...he has come so near already ...and stage wins/king of mountains in Giro ( which might be difficult if riding soley for Ryder Hajedal) but still a real possibility..he is good , very good and still young enough

I also feel Nico will step up and start winning too in the next two years ..maybe 2.1 races to begin with but hopefully with confidence he will get the results I believe are within his capabilities....

FirstinLastout

mistermatthew wrote: »

Yeah I imagine they must of. Which made me wonder why there wasn't a whole generation inspired by those two and resulting in more cyclists?

Not a generation granted but we did have a World Champ in God's County. :cool:

kencoo

Those were the days alright.... I remember walking down through a deserted caravan park in Courtown in 1987 on a pretty hot day. As I went past each window I could see that every single TV was tuned into the tour. I was only 8 but understood that something special was happening. Ahh nostalgia...

You seems you need (A) ability (B) opportunity & (C) ambition to push A+B. It is funny that success doesn’t lead to further success. Our Soccer team is the same following the huge achievements in the 1990s and I dare say rugby will follow a similar path in time.

Opportunity is not as easy as it seems as bike racing is an expensive business, even for youths, who therefore might choose a cheaper alternative. There is also a much larger variety of pastimes (or waste of times) i.e. computer games/TV and other sports which were not readily available in the 1980s.

Another poster has already mentioned that cycling was purer back then which was not the case for the past 15/20 years with EPO etc. Until that is addressed or equalled we probably won’t have more hero’s in this sport. Coupled with that there needs to be a real drive to be the best- a genuine focus or ruthlessness. Roche even mentioned in his recent book that Nicolas does not do/have this focus (at the moment).

seve65

kencoo wrote: »

...Another poster has already mentioned that cycling was purer back then which was not the case for the past 15/20 years with EPO etc. ..

Really, what about all the amphetamines and steroids ? Clear admitted cases of these back in the 60s at the highest level.

Colonialboy

riparooo wrote: »

Oh c'mon cycling is a minority sport in Ireland and one that requires very little in the provision of facilities for a juniors talent to shine through. At that stage there is enough scouts and talent spotters in the country to intervene at that point.

Blaming the govt on Ireland no having enough sports stars is ridiclous.

I think the British would disagree, it took an investment of tens of millions for them to get a TDF winner.
I think the sporting facilities in Ireland are very poor unless you happen to live in Dublin or a county where the Minister who looked after lotto funding was from. One of my biggest gripes with the boom is theres no legacy left of facilities, I wouldnt have minded the corruption and ghost estates so much if we could at least say we had some 50m pools, cycle routes, running tracks, upgraded community halls, all weather communtiy pitches to show for it.
Course some people think that the recent successive Govts of Ireland which monumentally managed to screw up everything else somehow managed todo all the right things when it came to fostering sports stars.

ashleey

To be good at road cycling you just need road. And a bike. Sky helped move Wiggins on from track to serious road competitor and they are a private company. No uk govt financed TDF entry.

furiousox

He served a good "apprenticeship" with Team GB though which receives a lot of UK lottery funding.

ashleey

furiousox wrote: »

He served a good "apprenticeship" with Team GB though which receives a lot of UK lottery funding.

True. I do think that it's a bit of a stretch to equate success on the road with Govt funding. It would be interesting to survey the top road riders and analyse their lifetime sources of funding.

Success on the track is definitely linked to direct support though.

Slo_Rida

I think the quality of domestic riders in Ireland at the time was extremely high. Roche won the Rás amongst some extremely strong cyclists and it seems clear that it was at this time that he really developed into a potential champ. I watched Rás tailteann on TG4 the other night and he mentions a few names, McQuaid being the only one I can remember but there a few families who provided serious competition for the likes of Roche at a domestic level which obviously proved the catalyst for his success on the world stage. I am only new(ish) to cycling so this is only what I have picked up in documentaries and the likes.
Best of luck to Nico and Dan...oh and Stephen Clancy who recently signed for an USA continental pro team.

MPFG

Just watched that TG4 programme on the Ras

http://www.tg4.ie/en/tg4-player/tg4-player.html

Wow there were some hard men in that race....make Sean Kelly look like a big girls blouse...That Mick Murphy ( who was cyling at 6am before work and at night into the wee hurs for training purposes ) and of course Se O Hanlon..... anda lot look good for their age

You can see how good Roche was from the get go ...mind you he wasn't shy declaring his superiority ...he has some arragonce in his attitude...but maybe that's what you need to be the best in the world...total self belief

route66

MPFG wrote: »

Just watched that TG4 programme on the Ras

http://www.tg4.ie/en/tg4-player/tg4-player.html

Wow there were some hard men in that race....make Sean Kelly look like a big girls blouse...That Mick Murphy ( who was cyling at 6am before work and at night into the wee hurs for training purposes ) and of course Se O Hanlon..... anda lot look good for their age

You can see how good Roche was from the get go ...mind you he wasn't shy declaring his superiority ...he has some arragonce in his attitude...but maybe that's what you need to be the best in the world...total self belief

Do you have a link to the show? I tried the link provided and then searched documentaries and Sport, etc but couldn't find anything - searching for "Ras" didn't help either.

Maybe it's my rusty, leaving-cert Irish that's letting me down (wasn't great to start with )

Slo_Rida

Yea I missed the start of it with Sky+ so if it's online I'd like to watch the whole thing...

ThisRegard

Google TG4 Ras Tailteann and you may or may not get some dubious links to it.

I recorded it over the Christmas and only watched it Monday night, it's a great documentary. Even if you have no interest in cycling it's very interesting to see the whole politics around the 2 cycling organisations at the time, something I was never aware of.

MPFG

MPFG wrote: »

Just watched that TG4 programme on the Ras

http://www.tg4.ie/en/tg4-player/tg4-player.html

go to the link i provided to TG4 iplayer and type 'Rás tailteann ' in the serach box on the upper right side ....

This worked for me......the video is in two halves but just let it play past the ads

fixie fox

ashleey wrote: »

True. I do think that it's a bit of a stretch to equate success on the road with Govt funding. It would be interesting to survey the top road riders and analyse their lifetime sources of funding.

Success on the track is definitely linked to direct support though.

British Cycling earned their lottery funding. They didn't get a big windfall overnight - it increased gradually as they started producing the goods.

Colonialboy

ashleey wrote: »

To be good at road cycling you just need road. And a bike. Sky helped move Wiggins on from track to serious road competitor and they are a private company. No uk govt financed TDF entry.

Incorrect ... to be good at road cycling you dont just need road ... cos not everyone has access to decent suitable roads you need access to good sporting faciltities.

Bradley grew up in inner city London, hardly optimal 'road' racing country.
He started at 12 in a Velodrome and didnt turn to the road until after the 2008 Olympics, Wiggins took a break from the track to focus on the road.

So he spent the first 28 years of his life focused on the track. Thats the background that created his road racing potential.

A number of international top qualifty cyclists have come from other sports , but sports that had excellent facilities available to them and so gave them a good base to make the transition.

Facilitiies in this country are a joke and have held back generations of sports people in a multitude of sports. Thats the Irish govts fault.
Sky just jumped on the potential that his track backgound had built.

looder

ashleey wrote: »

I've met him at the Leinster loop a few times and he seemed alright to me.

Regarding Kelly you should come and put some miles in around Carrick on Suir that would explain a lot of his grit and strength

You should probably be careful though. Look what happened poor Sam Bennett a few miles from Carrick. He was destined to go to the Olympics in London only for his set back a couple of years ago with his broken leg (He still nearly made London).

Also, Sean's brother died in a cycling accident just outside Carrick On Suir. I was unfortunate enough to be one of the first on the scene that Sunday evening.


I seen an interview on the Late Late Show where Roche was accused of doping. Was Kelly ever accused of anything similar?

RobFowl

looder wrote: »

You should probably be careful though. Look what happened poor Sam Bennett a few miles from Carrick. He was destined to go to the Olympics in London only for his set back a couple of years ago with his broken leg (He still nearly made London).

Also, Sean's brother died in a cycling accident just outside Carrick On Suir. I was unfortunate enough to be one of the first on the scene that Sunday evening.


I seen an interview on the Late Late Show where Roche was accused of doping. Was Kelly ever accused of anything similar?

Sam wasn't been funded by the ISC for years now and despite 10th in the Worlds and 7th in the Europeans is again getting nothing from them this year .
He's doing well and will win big races but it'll be despite the Sports Council's best efforts.....

n-dawg

I have to agree with all the funding and facilities points... in roche and kelly's day nobody had them so nobody needed them. But now young Irish riders are competing against riders with access to facilities and funding from a young age.

I'm very lucky to be living in Glasgow at the moment and have access to a shinny new velodrome. You should see some of the young uns coming through and racing. The Junior race at track league would be a higher standard then the B's (Cat 2s) and they currently have a waiting list of 100+ to join the main junior club (Glasgow Riderz). You could almost guarantee that Scotland will be producing top class cyclists in 5-10 years.

trad

Kelly and Roche came from an Ireland that most of you don't know.

Ireland in the seventies wasn't in depression, we didn't know what the good times were.

There was little or no employment. You had to get a trade, Sean a brick layer, Stephen a fitter.

There was little or no science in bike riding, you just rode your bike and got fit according to time honoured tradition. There was no post race anaylsis of power output or wattage or race profile, you won or you didn't. You rode what you could afford, not what you wanted. You bought your tubs at the start of the season and hoped they lasted fro the year. You learnt how to repair tubs and became a dab hand at sewing.

These two greats had nothing to loose by giving it their all because there was nothing to come back to.

I only one rode a race with Sean in it, he, Alan McCormac and John Short attacked on the Naul and never seen again. I rode a few races with Stephen and again pure class.

These hero's were extremely talented riders with with very little to loose and everything to gain.

Special Red

sy wrote: »

Martin Earley was to some extent unfortunate to have been at his best when these two guys were about. Stage wins in the TDF and the Giro plus a few lesser races looks impressive when compared to our present crop of pros. He also played an important role in that famous win at the Worlds in 1987.

Plus he did it wearing glasses that Clarke Kent would be proud of!

ashleey

looder wrote: »

You should probably be careful though. Look what happened poor Sam Bennett a few miles from Carrick. He was destined to go to the Olympics in London only for his set back a couple of years ago with his broken leg (He still nearly made London).

Also, Sean's brother died in a cycling accident just outside Carrick On Suir. I was unfortunate enough to be one of the first on the scene that Sunday evening.


I seen an interview on the Late Late Show where Roche was accused of doping. Was Kelly ever accused of anything similar?

That's a sad story and would affect anyone.

All I meant was that Sean Kelly's dedication to riding up and down some serious gradients gave him the strength for racing.

ashleey

n-dawg wrote: »

I have to agree with all the funding and facilities points... in roche and kelly's day nobody had them so nobody needed them. But now young Irish riders are competing against riders with access to facilities and funding from a young age.

I'm very lucky to be living in Glasgow at the moment and have access to a shinny new velodrome. You should see some of the young uns coming through and racing. The Junior race at track league would be a higher standard then the B's (Cat 2s) and they currently have a waiting list of 100+ to join the main junior club (Glasgow Riderz). You could almost guarantee that Scotland will be producing top class cyclists in 5-10 years.

You make a good point. I've lost count of the times that I've made fellow parents who love cycling but can't convince their kids to head out for 3 hours. A track race is far more attractive to kids and gives them, like wiggins and cav etc the grounding. Cycling has moved on incredibly from the old days but if you really want to make it you can try and get noticed by first putting in the road miles.

Having said that, the govt are pretty sh*t at making roads here so an indoor velodrome might be too much to ask