Dairy heifers

farmerjack

Here's one for all you seasoned dairy farmers, this spring I am calving down a good few heifers and I am wondering what is the general consensus on how long you should leave the calf on the heifer before you bring her into the parlour. I want to do the best I can for the calf while not creating too much hardship on myself in training the calf to suck and getting the heifer used to the parlour afterwards.

Thanks in advance!

whelan1

have your heifers been done with rotavec corona, if so, i leave the calves on them for a week to give them the best start, but different folks different strokes

stanflt

less than 6hours after calving- the newborn cannot absorbe as much nutrients after 6hours so the benefit of colostrum is less

freedominacup

stanflt wrote: »

less than 6hours after calving- the newborn cannot absorbe as much nutrients after 6hours so the benefit of colostrum is less

I'm with Stan on this. Next milking if it's twenty minutes or 12 hours away.

whelan1

have done this in the past, but on vet advice was told to leave them for a week, serious difference, real healthy calves after a week... it all depends on what the calf has to deal with when born, what diseases are there... calf mortality has lessened significantly

linebacker52

I'm with the other two lads on this I take them off the the next morning max the would be with them is 12 hours with a lot of cows calving to much pressure on space in the calving shed to leave them longer.

farmerjack

Yeah there vaccinated alright, this is my first year milking and am just a bit unsure as to what way to approach it. Whelan is it hard to get the calf trained to suck a bucket after a week and how long will it take for the heifers to settle.

royalmeath

Take them off as soon as possible, your only creating hardship for yourself and stressing the heifer
when you leave them together for a few days. I also found the calves can be a touch mental for the rest
of their lives if they used to the mother at all.

Tipp Man

farmerjack wrote: »

Yeah there vaccinated alright, this is my first year milking and am just a bit unsure as to what way to approach it. Whelan is it hard to get the calf trained to suck a bucket after a week and how long will it take for the heifers to settle.

Don't bucket feed calves, pure hardship and a thing of the past and not the best for calves

Get yourself a teat feeder, or get 2. A small 1 for training and a bigger 1 once they are going

Tipp Man

On the original question

Hardly ever longer than 24 hours - usually let the cow skip 1 milking and then calf is taken out

whelan1

farmerjack wrote: »

Yeah there vaccinated alright, this is my first year milking and am just a bit unsure as to what way to approach it. Whelan is it hard to get the calf trained to suck a bucket after a week and how long will it take for the heifers to settle.

no, as tippman said teat feeder is a great job... think calves are alot easier fed now than years ago

farmerjack

Sorry I actually meant a teat feeder not a bucket, no hassle with the heifers settling then?

whelan1

no, put them through the parlour a few times before calving to get them used to it

Cowmad

I agree with royalmeath. Why draw work on ya when there is enough work on during the calving season.

delaval

Milk heifer at next milking.

Stomach tube calf the minute you see it after birth, only way to be sure it gets enpogh colostrum.

You are busy enough without all the extra hassle

Timmaay

Stomach tube certainly saves a hell of a lot of time. I'd try them with the dummy firstly usually, but my patience doesn't last long ha. Main hassle of trying to do it straight after birth though is manually milking the cow, esp if she is slow enough to let down the milk. Or do yas just use the colostrum from another very recently calved cow? (Which I've heard should be avoided, does it actually matter that much though?)

kfk

I used to leave calves on the cows for a week to 10 days before and never had better performing calves but I don't think it was worth the stress! I usually take them away now after a few hours.

It is important to collect and store the colostrum or milk from the vaccinated cows for the first 3 or 4 days of milking. The calves need this for the first 2 weeks for the vaccine to be as effective as possible.

freedominacup

kfk wrote: »

I used to leave calves on the cows for a week to 10 days before and never had better performing calves but I don't think it was worth the stress! I usually take them away now after a few hours.

It is important to collect and store the colostrum or milk from the vaccinated cows for the first 3 or 4 days of milking. The calves need this for the first 2 weeks for the vaccine to be as effective as possible.

How is that? AFAIK the antibodies in the colostrum can only pass through the stomach wall in the first 6 hours after birth. In nature a cow will be in normal milk in 2-3 days so how is colostrum of any benefit after this period when the calf has no evolved system for using it or have we had a minor eveolutionary breakthrough since the marketing depts of the drug companies saw a few quid in bovine vaccinations?

whelan1

freedominacup wrote: »

How is that? AFAIK the antibodies in the colostrum can only pass through the stomach wall in the first 6 hours after birth. In nature a cow will be in normal milk in 2-3 days so how is colostrum of any benefit after this period when the calf has no evolved system for using it or have we had a minor eveolutionary breakthrough since the marketing depts of the drug companies saw a few quid in bovine vaccinations?

had serious losses in calves for a few years, we found out it was rotavirus, use rotavec corona, i leave calf on the cow/heifer for a week and then calf gets a rotavec corona cows milk for at least another week, failure to do so results in death

farmerjack

On the rotovec corona, we have used it for the last few years on the suckler herd and found it brilliant no losses to scours since we began using it, before that it was costing us a fortune between treatments and losses

freedominacup

whelan1 wrote: »

had serious losses in calves for a few years, we found out it was rotavirus, use rotavec corona, i leave calf on the cow/heifer for a week and then calf gets a rotavec corona cows milk for at least another week, failure to do so results in death

I've been there. We were heading for losses at 30% a good few years ago. We had the whole nine yards I.V. fluids, blood transfusions anything upto half the calves sick on particular days and they were near worthless to boot £40-£60 and the pound sign is correct. The disease had gottten stuck into the housing and nothing would shift it. We changed our calf housing and while I wouldn't claim in any way that we don't lose calves our losses are back to more normal levels. When your calves are with the cow are they in a different building to your normal calf accomodation? Is there any chance that the two weeks away from this building is allowing them to get strong enough to cope with what will be thrown at them when they go into the calf housing?

kfk

freedominacup wrote: »

How is that? AFAIK the antibodies in the colostrum can only pass through the stomach wall in the first 6 hours after birth. In nature a cow will be in normal milk in 2-3 days so how is colostrum of any benefit after this period when the calf has no evolved system for using it or have we had a minor eveolutionary breakthrough since the marketing depts of the drug companies saw a few quid in bovine vaccinations?

Good point. Cant answer that tbh. It would probably explain it on the leaflet. Im sure though that it says to feed the colostrum to the calf for 2 weeks for full benefit!

freedominacup

kfk wrote: »

Good point. Cant answer that tbh. It would probably explain it on the leaflet. Im sure though that it says to feed the colostrum to the calf for 2 weeks for full benefit!

And I'd love to see the peer reviewed published research that backs that up.

In no way am I saying that vacinations don't work, I'm just saying some of the stuff being said doesn't match with my understanding of how they work. Scour vaccines do work but they are only one shot in the locker not the silver bullet.

whelan1

freedominacup wrote: »

I've been there. We were heading for losses at 30% a good few years ago. We had the whole nine yards I.V. fluids, blood transfusions anything upto half the calves sick on particular days and they were near worthless to boot £40-£60 and the pound sign is correct. The disease had gottten stuck into the housing and nothing would shift it. We changed our calf housing and while I wouldn't claim in any way that we don't lose calves our losses are back to more normal levels. When your calves are with the cow are they in a different building to your normal calf accomodation? Is there any chance that the two weeks away from this building is allowing them to get strong enough to cope with what will be thrown at them when they go into the calf housing?

some off the calves that wont drink the cow go to calf pens sooner.... i am happy the way they are turning out now, i know its more work but would prefer that to dead calves:D the calf housing is spotless, actually just going out now to disenfect it with oocide, before the calves are born later this week.... new calf housing, well 2 or 3 years old

whelan1

freedominacup wrote: »

And I'd love to see the peer reviewed published research that backs that up.

In no way am I saying that vacinations don't work, I'm just saying some of the stuff being said doesn't match with my understanding of how they work. Scour vaccines do work but they are only one shot in the locker not the silver bullet.

my calves get rotavec corona biestings, halocur and vecoxan;) wouldnt be with out any of them now tbh...

Farfield

Farmerjack, like most of the others here i just take the calf away from the heifer at the next milking - so a most it gets 12 hours or less with its mum.
Like you i am just finishing my first year at the milking and i still find training the heifers the tough bit. A second person to hold her tail is the job but thats generally not available. Get them used to the parlour well before calving - then you have just the cluster bit to contend with!!!

kfk

freedominacup wrote: »

And I'd love to see the peer reviewed published research that backs that up.

In no way am I saying that vacinations don't work, I'm just saying some of the stuff being said doesn't match with my understanding of how they work. Scour vaccines do work but they are only one shot in the locker not the silver bullet.

Below is what I copied from the leaflet. They claim that antibodies in the gut will offer protection.

Protection of calves depends on the physical presence of colostrum antibodies (from vaccinated cows) within the gut for the duration of the first 2 - 3 weeks of life until calves develop their own immunity.

delaval

Farfield wrote: »

Farmerjack, like most of the others here i just take the calf away from the heifer at the next milking - so a most it gets 12 hours or less with its mum.
Like you i am just finishing my first year at the milking and i still find training the heifers the tough bit. A second person to hold her tail is the job but thats generally not available. Get them used to the parlour well before calving - then you have just the cluster bit to contend with!!!

We would be calving a lot of heifers and I totally agree with you on training. Might I suggest walking them through parlour 2/3 times enough, run through with a few dry cows as they know where they wre going.
We occasionally get caught in pallour alone with heifers if you are really having trouble put a vice grip high on tail will concentrte her mind. I am in no way advocating this method for all heifers but works in emergency. You'll notice that a small proportion cause long term problems anyway.;);)

delaval

whelan1 wrote: »

my calves get rotavec corona biestings, halocur and vecoxan;) wouldnt be with out any of them now tbh...

How soon do you give Holacur. We lways seem to leave it too late in season nd it becomes a fire brigade job.
Do you give for 1 week as recommended or can I get away with less if I start earlier.
We are powerwashing and disinfecting today also, nothing due 'till Feb 1st.

Tipp Man

Farfield wrote: »

Farmerjack, like most of the others here i just take the calf away from the heifer at the next milking - so a most it gets 12 hours or less with its mum.
Like you i am just finishing my first year at the milking and i still find training the heifers the tough bit. A second person to hold her tail is the job but thats generally not available. Get them used to the parlour well before calving - then you have just the cluster bit to contend with!!!

Been at cows for several generations now

Training in the heifers is still the worst part of the job

whelan1

delaval wrote: »

How soon do you give Holacur. We lways seem to leave it too late in season nd it becomes a fire brigade job.
Do you give for 1 week as recommended or can I get away with less if I start earlier.
We are powerwashing and disinfecting today also, nothing due 'till Feb 1st.

i give 3 squirts(4ml each) of haolcur for 3 days

delaval

whelan1 wrote: »

i give 3 squirts(4ml each) of haolcur for 3 days

How soon after birth?

whelan1

delaval wrote: »

How soon after birth?

sorry, first dose asap after birth(12ml)

delaval

Cheers

Farfield

I am glad others find parlour training heifers is a tough job - thought it was just me!! Its no bother at all with second set of hands, but on your own i have tried kick bars (generally not good), tail clips etc. What i do is to try and let only 1 heifer into a row with mature trained cows. Get the clusters onto the mature ones and let them take care of themselves (acr's come into their own here) then put cluster onto heifer and step up quick and hold her tail til she is milked if you can get enough time to even step up before she kicks it off!!! Then you stand praying that none of the other cows knock theirs off!! This is the hard bit, the rest is great.

Farfield

I would love to hear others experiences/Tips of what you do on your own and how you hold your temper when training heifers - some would drive you mad, on/off, on/off, on/off etc etc. I hate to let them start kicking them off at all if i can help it, cause once they learn, boy do they play on it!!!

freedominacup

Farfield wrote: »

I am glad others find parlour training heifers is a tough job - thought it was just me!! Its no bother at all with second set of hands, but on your own i have tried kick bars (generally not good), tail clips etc. What i do is to try and let only 1 heifer into a row with mature trained cows. Get the clusters onto the mature ones and let them take care of themselves (acr's come into their own here) then put cluster onto heifer and step up quick and hold her tail til she is milked if you can get enough time to even step up before she kicks it off!!! Then you stand praying that none of the other cows knock theirs off!! This is the hard bit, the rest is great.

I think you need to look at your breeding or your handling of heifers. What you describe above would be a remarkable event here. I expect to hold a cluster for a minute or two on the first milking and that's that anything more would be an event.

whelan1

freedominacup wrote: »

I think you need to look at your breeding or your handling of heifers. What you describe above would be a remarkable event here. I expect to hold a cluster for a minute or two on the first milking and that's that anything more would be an event.

the other point if you are nervous /jittery putting on the cluster the heifer will sense this, i always talk to the heifer before i put it on her, never ever loose your temper, walk away if you have to.... also make sure heifers are used to you, go through them as many times as you can, again talking... a radio is a good idea also... we had only one cow that kicked and was a bitch, unfortunately she did the splits and had to be put down

freedominacup

whelan1 wrote: »

the other point if you are nervous /jittery putting on the cluster the heifer will sense this, i always talk to the heifer before i put it on her, never ever loose your temper, walk away if you have to.... also make sure heifers are used to you, go through them as many times as you can, again talking... a radio is a good idea also... we had only one cow that kicked and was a bitch, unfortunately she did the splits and had to be put down

Are you sure it was that unfortunate?:eek:

whelan1

freedominacup wrote: »

Are you sure it was that unfortunate?:eek:

if ever there was a cow you wanted to do the splits it was her... you would just have the cluster on her and have turned away and it would be off again....

milkprofit

Farfield wrote: »

I am glad others find parlour training heifers is a tough job - thought it was just me!! Its no bother at all with second set of hands, but on your own i have tried kick bars (generally not good), tail clips etc. What i do is to try and let only 1 heifer into a row with mature trained cows. Get the clusters onto the mature ones and let them take care of themselves (acr's come into their own here) then put cluster onto heifer and step up quick and hold her tail til she is milked if you can get enough time to even step up before she kicks it off!!! Then you stand praying that none of the other cows knock theirs off!! This is the hard bit, the rest is great.

only use kick bar on less than 10 % 1-3 times
If second person avilabl hold tail
Mix with mature big cows
just put cluster on and maybe scratch tail head for 20 sec
always run hf into parlour anumber . of times

Farfield

Yea, i suppose i have had bad experiences during last year. I was a total new start last spring and every heifer had to be broken in one by one at the start as i had "no" mature cows at all in any of the rows - all first calvers!
Ah well, maybe it will be easier with this years new heifers now that i do have a nice herd of Brit Friesians that are all well behaved great cows now to be honest!!!

TEAT SQUEEZER

i train all the heifers on my own . i wont tolerate any repeat kicking off and will tie up the heifer straight away.. nip it in the bud .. when shes tied up u can get on with the rest of milking not like a yo yo up and down to her... breeding and handling are def two of the top factors regarding temperment.... i see it plenty times , a flighty mother = flighty daughter

dar31

not to many problems with heifers (around 100 calve in each year) generally put it down to putting tar on them during the summer, as they are ran up parlour once/twice a week this allows them to find their way around it.
the tar ing get them used to being handled around the elders as well.

even when they are passing the yard i would bring them into parlour and let them through then on to where ever they were going.

but
there is alway one tramp

Farfield

Tea squeezer, I never tried tying up. What do you do, is there not a risk of the cow going down altogether? I wud try it if any were pricks this spring. Do they not skip n jump like some do with the kick bar?

TEAT SQUEEZER

Farfield wrote: »

Tea squeezer, I never tried tying up. What do you do, is there not a risk of the cow going down altogether? I wud try it if any were pricks this spring. Do they not skip n jump like some do with the kick bar?

2 meter lenght folded in half
pass the folded end over the botom horizontal bar in front of the heifers leg ,over the hock ,and pull it past the leg and under the bar in the one movement

pass the 2 ends through and tighten

she should be locked tight , no wriggle room

pass the ends around the nearest up right and tighten

her leg is strained forward not lifted so she should be stable

Farfield

Grand job teat squeezer i will try that. Do they ever go down on you or start hopping when tied?

mf240

What squeezer says will work most of the time but if shes proper wiked tying her will drive her cracked altogether.

It really is in the breed though. I calved a bunch of heifers this year and not one so much as rose a foot. I have been culling very cross cows and using beef bulls on fidgety cows for years now and its starting to pay off.

Are the real holstiens the quitest lads or what do ye think?

oh and plus one for running them through the palour.

farmerjack

Im restricted in how much I can train them as the parlour won't be finished for another week yet! So I may try and do my best with the info posted so far, thanks.

loveta

farmerjack wrote: »

Here's one for all you seasoned dairy farmers, this spring I am calving down a good few heifers and I am wondering what is the general consensus on how long you should leave the calf on the heifer before you bring her into the parlour. I want to do the best I can for the calf while not creating too much hardship on myself in training the calf to suck and getting the heifer used to the parlour afterwards.

Thanks in advance!

1. When the calf is licked take it away from the mother tube/bucket with teat on it feed the calf, if the calf sucks the mother they can be harder to take to de rubber teat.
2. Tub feeders are mighty but stay well clear of the jfc ones have 4 of them and intend selling them.Get the ones with the sections dividing them internally "slow drinkers get the same then" also the "peach teats" are the way to go the best thing since sliced bread IMO

TEAT SQUEEZER

Farfield wrote: »

Grand job teat squeezer i will try that. Do they ever go down on you or start hopping when tied?

some do .... u could have a second shorter rope handy t really stitch her leg to the bar . two doubled ropes are about3 inches wide so its not cutting into her ... always tie bow knots for quick release.. i keep a pen knife handy but have never ever cut a rope... the key is really pull her leg forward and tighten her to the bar. . its hard to explain something that is over in a second or two but it works for me. i`m on my own so cant commit the time to kickers and ive sheeting behind the cows so a kickbar is not an option