Irelands lack of wrestling tradition

monkey8

I think the Taylor-Fields fight demonstrates how much of a disadvantage Irish and european fighters have as apposed to the Americans and Canadians with their wrestling tradition.

Wrestling has to be taken seriously here if any of our fighters are to stand a chance when they make it to the UFC.

I think McGregor could probably stand with the best in the UFC but if he was to come up against a decent collegiate level wrestler he would get dominated like Fields did.

theboxingclinic

Couple of points on that, taylor is not a decent colegiate wrestler, he was an exceptional colegiate wrestler, a point i had made on powerhouse but a lot of irish people may not have been aware of how good taylors wrestling is, for example one of the young sbg guys told me not to underestimate chris wrestling. whilst chris is well rounded i think it showed the difference in the levels of wrestling, similar to how a blue belt would get destroyed by a black belt in jitz. if the fight had gone to fields plan it might be different but he never settled into his striking.
mcgregor on the other hand is a different case, hes very athlethic and if taken down would be very difficult to keep down, but certainly id love to see him matched against a high lever wrestler and see how he does. i think he would pass that test.

monkey8 wrote: »

I think the Taylor-Fields fight demonstrates how much of a disadvantage Irish and european fighters have as apposed to the Americans and Canadians with their wrestling tradition.

Wrestling has to be taken seriously here if any of our fighters are to stand a chance when they make it to the UFC.

I think McGregor could probably stand with the best in the UFC but if he was to come up against a decent collegiate level wrestler he would get dominated like Fields did.

willowthewisp

What abou Seamus?

WWE Champion I might add.

GSPfan

willowthewisp wrote: »

What abou Seamus?

WWE Champion I might add.

Ha ha ha. Well he was the World Champion but not now. He got knocked out by the Big Show. Maybe he needs to work on his stand up.

Seriously though, I'm not sure anything can be done about the wrestling disadvantage. Its a part of their culture. The gap may not be so obvious in 10 years when the kids who are training mma now have ten years of mma wrestling behind them.

monkey8

GSPfan wrote: »

The gap may not be so obvious in 10 years when the kids who are training mma now have ten years of mma wrestling behind them.

Not sure if the gap will be smaller.
Most mma clubs focus on stand up and Bjj with a little take down and wrestling.
I guess it's understandable as they know that they will probably not come up against anyone with high level wrestling in Ireland.
I think unless there is far more emphasis put on wrestling nothing will change

Jason McCabe

The strongest range in MMA is one of our countries greatest weaknesses

Internationally that's a major worry.

Xlami

To be fair I think this thread is pretty much stating the obvious. It hardly comes as a shock that Irish and UK guys have a disadvantage in the wrestling department when compared to the US. All gyms are constantly working on this and can be seen by the amateur fighters up and down the country.

On the pro level I imagine the problem is Sparring partners and excellent coaches. Sergi Pikulski is a great asset at SBG and a world class wrestler. Paul Daley really struggled with his wrestling until he employed Kenny Johnson full time; guys like this don't come cheap.

And for anyone who says Ireland can't produce effective MMA wrestlers; Cathal Pendred is one of the best in Europe IMO.

BJJ_Expert

I once heard that wrestling (and not just in Ireland but Europe wide) was up to the 1930's as popular as boxing. I remember seeing old pics in the Irish fighter of boxing clubs doubling up as wrestling clubs on alternate nights. Wrestling still is common in some Eastern European countries, Bulgaria in particulair. We have a long, long way to compete to anywhere the level of the Yanks and Canadians etc. Still the Brazilians ( who have little wrestling as far as I know) seem to cope ?

Cathal Pendred

I never post here, but I thought I would in this case because I know Chris wouldn't bother respond. Chris didn't perform to the best of his ability that night and I know if he faces Taylor again it will be a different story.

On the topic of wrestling of Irish/European MMA fighters, I think it's seriously underrated. On the same note, I think the wrestling of American wrestlers is sometimes overrated.

I trained over in AKA with some of the best wrestlers in MMA.... And I out-wrestled them! I can't wait until I have the opportunity to prove that to the world.

theboxingclinic

i dont think anyone is slagging chris, he got out wrestled and jesse game plan won out, if chris had been the one to implement hi game plan he would have won, it was a 50/50 fight

Cathal Pendred wrote: »

I never post here, but I thought I would in this case because I know Chris wouldn't bother respond. Chris didn't perform to the best of his ability that night and I know if he faces Taylor again it will be a different story.

On the topic of wrestling of Irish/European MMA fighters, I think it's seriously underrated. On the same note, I think the wrestling of American wrestlers is sometimes overrated.

I trained over in AKA with some of the best wrestlers in MMA.... And I out-wrestled them! I can't wait until I have the opportunity to prove that to the world.

monkey8

theboxingclinic wrote: »

i dont think anyone is slagging chris, he got out wrestled and jesse game plan won out, if chris had been the one to implement hi game plan he would have won, it was a 50/50 fight

+1
Chris is a awesome fighter and i certainly
didn't mean to come across as slagging him or any other Irish fighter. I have the upmost respect for these guys.
I was talking more about the standard of wrestling in general in the country.

Pride Fighter

BJJ_Expert wrote: »

I once heard that wrestling (and not just in Ireland but Europe wide) was up to the 1930's as popular as boxing. I remember seeing old pics in the Irish fighter of boxing clubs doubling up as wrestling clubs on alternate nights. Wrestling still is common in some Eastern European countries, Bulgaria in particulair. We have a long, long way to compete to anywhere the level of the Yanks and Canadians etc. Still the Brazilians ( who have little wrestling as far as I know) seem to cope ?

Yeah, that is true. Ireland has a great wrestling heritage, as Britain does as well. There are Irish styles and British styles of wrestling, that were completely unique and extremely effective. It seemed to die around the 1950's/1960's in the British Isles. We even had someone finish 4th in the olympics in 1956, but could not build on that success.

I think MMA is going to prove to be the biggest shot in the arm for wrestling in this country. It has gotten people interested in wrestling. I think something can be built around the wrestling clubs here, and MMA clubs athletes competing in wrestling tournaments.

12gauge dave

Its a sporting option in high schools in usa it must be where alot of them pick it up/introduced to it?

FERGAL7

To be fair couldn't an Irish fighter with high level Judo or Japanese Jujutsu cope with any wrestler??? :cool:

cowzerp

FERGAL7 wrote: »

To be fair couldn't an Irish fighter with high level Judo or Japanese Jujutsu cope with any wrestler??? :cool:

No!

FERGAL7

Care to elaborate???

theboxingclinic

elaboration is not really required, look at how wrestlers are so successful in mma, compared to jap jitz and judo combined.


QUOTE=FERGAL7;82544230]Care to elaborate???[/QUOTE]

FERGAL7

theboxingclinic wrote: »

elaboration is not really required, look at how wrestlers are so successful in mma, compared to jap jitz and judo combined.


QUOTE=FERGAL7;82544230]Care to elaborate???

[/QUOTE]

Fedor Emilieanenko....

theboxingclinic

yes fergal thats one fighter, if i start listing successful wrestlers we could be here all night.

Fedor Emilieanenko....[/QUOTE]

FERGAL7

fair enough but can you name one who could out grapple a prime Fedor??

Stillweak

FERGAL7 wrote: »

fair enough but can you name one who could out grapple a prime Fedor??

Hi fergal
I'm not sure if your joking or not. Japanese jiu jitsu!
Fedor did Sambo.
He's just one person. His success does not mean that if we all tried to be like him we would a be really successful fighters.
He was unbelievable at striking and grappling.
Traditional jiu jitsu practitioners are fat guys in their forties who go to community centres on Tuesday evenings and talk about what they would do in a fight if the situation ever came up.

FERGAL7

Well I was actually referring to Fedors Judo so no I wasnt joking...
In regard to you said about JJJ I practice it and the class consists of men between the ages of 17 and 30 on average and is incredibly competitive with a heavy emphasis on takedowns, throws, and ground grappling. given I have heard of some other Jujutsu schools where they practice Katas for an hour and a half every class and that is pointless in my view.

darced

This post has been deleted.

FERGAL7

darced wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

JUDO :L

Stillweak

FERGAL7 wrote: »

Well I was actually referring to Fedors Judo so no I wasnt joking...
In regard to you said about JJJ I practice it and the class consists of men between the ages of 17 and 30 on average and is incredibly competitive with a heavy emphasis on takedowns, throws, and ground grappling. given I have heard of some other Jujutsu schools where they practice Katas for an hour and a half every class and that is pointless in my view.

Your class actually sounds ok. Sorry if I came across rude. It's just that there is a lot of evidence around that jjj guys not only don't resist but jump to appease their "master".
I'm not saying that there are not tough guys who are good fighters that do jjj but nobody from this background competes at an international level in mma.
If everyone in the UFC trains bjj, wresting and muay Thai and nobody trains jjj, thats proof that these are the most effective things to do.

FERGAL7

Stillweak wrote: »

Your class actually sounds ok. Sorry if I came across rude. It's just that there is a lot of evidence around that jjj guys not only don't resist but jump to appease their "master".
I'm not saying that there are not tough guys who are good fighters that do jjj but nobody from this background competes at an international level in mma.
If everyone in the UFC trains bjj, wresting and muay Thai and nobody trains jjj, thats proof that these are the most effective things to do.

No its ok I had a similiar attitude when I first seen ads for this class but once I had attended it I was gripped by its hands on approach. given I have never attended a wrestling, Judo or BJJ class I am in no position to critisize any of them for all I know they could be vastly superior to the best guy in my class.
well according to wikipedia Michael Bisping started in "A traditional for of jujitsu"
another fighter Stephen Thompson holds a black belt in JJJ although he has a heavy emphasis on striking. But yes theres no denying succesful JJJ practioneers in MMA is a rarity..

Stillweak

I'm sure cathal is not claiming to be at the top of the wrestling food chain. He prob meant he does well against a lot of lads in aka. Fair play to him. You need to aim high to get anywhere.
As far as Conor. Who knows. Your right not to get carried away yet.
Thats one thing I don't get about mma fans. A couple of wins and these wild predictions come out. One loss and the guy is rubbish over night. Beating guys in cage warriors to being UFC champ is a bit of a difference.
If I saw a guy running rings around lads in the Leinster senior league football league I wouldn't think that he is better than messi.

Jason McCabe

Norman trained for a long time with Alan Ashcroft who is a wrestling and Judo coach in the north. Therefore has a decent wrestling pedigree

Xlami

Stillweak wrote: »

I'm sure cathal is not claiming to be at the top of the wrestling food chain. He prob meant he does well against a lot of lads in aka. Fair play to him. You need to aim high to get anywhere.
As far as Conor. Who knows. Your right not to get carried away yet.
Thats one thing I don't get about mma fans. A couple of wins and these wild predictions come out. One loss and the guy is rubbish over night. Beating guys in cage warriors to being UFC champ is a bit of a difference.
If I saw a guy running rings around lads in the Leinster senior league football league I wouldn't think that he is better than messi.

To be fair comparing the gulf in class from Cage Warriors to UFC championship to LSL and Messi is just plain idiotic. Conor has a record with some top names on it and I agree it'll be tough for him when he comes up against world class wrestlers. Having said that Steve O'Keefe is a very good wrestler, not UFC class but a good wrestler. The question will be answered soon and in the mean time I don't see why people on this forum aren't proud to support the likes of Conor and get behind him instead of saying he'll get out wrestled he needn't bother trying. Who knows could see Conor McGregor beat Chad Mendes with a triangle choke. Beleive

Be like Nutella

here on the subject anyone know of a wrestling class in Dublin where you can just turn up and pay by class? city or southside? thanks

FERGAL7

I could be wrong but i think the hercules gym offer wrestling classes????

StcIreland

Be like Nutella wrote: »

here on the subject anyone know of a wrestling class in Dublin where you can just turn up and pay by class? city or southside? thanks

Hi there,

We offer Wrestling classes in our gym on a tuesday at 7pm you can pay by class if u wish to. They are thought by Brian Breslin who is also a tutor for the wrestling coaching course in Ireland

Our gym is located in the glen abbey industrial estate on the belgard road in tallaght.

BJJ_Expert

FERGAL7 wrote: »

I could be wrong but i think the hercules gym offer wrestling classes????

I think it's Olympic style wrestling but best to give it a call first ( MMA tends to use Greco Roman style as it's good for take downs, BJJ for the floor).

http://www.herculesclub.ie/Home.html

Be like Nutella

well then is there any Greco goin anywhere? outside of an MMA gym if ya know what I mean? prob not I'd say... as people say it's not in our culture here... I'd love to do some classes though

magicherbs

BJJ_Expert wrote: »

I think it's Olympic style wrestling but best to give it a call first ( MMA tends to use Greco Roman style as it's good for take downs, BJJ for the floor).

http://www.herculesclub.ie/Home.html

that's not true.

wrestlingdad

would recomend spartan - tuesday at 7 pm - it would be good to get some of the bjj and judo community there - great workout , good fun ,good lads there

bill

muckwarrior

Kyuzo in Glasnevin have dedicated wrestling classes http://kyuzogym.com/wrestling/

Be like Nutella

deadly stuff lads cheers

could 75 it to Tallaght for Spartan alright but bit far...and it's a blue moon timetable... Kyuzu looks so deadly but too far away...2 buses

what's with the general lack of MMA-ing out on soutside? say Rathfarnham, Ballinteer side of things... really annoying. I remember SBG was so handy in Harolds Cross... then I got lazy and they moved

glad to see new BJJ Gracie Barra club on Orwell road.... but that's about it for MMA skills out my way... must give that a go in all fairness.... the coach seems to be a bit good by all accounts : )

I suppose there's a new K1 class startin in the new YF Gym in Harolds Cross... must check that out - 8 blips a class pretty good, wonder who the coach is.

If I won the lotto there'd be a kickass MMA gym in Rathfarnham, say there's a good market for it there... lot of young people round here.

Richy06

SBG is a short bus journey away on Longmile Road, now. There's wrestling with Sergei every week.
If you can get to GB then do, Chris Bowe is a phenomenal competitor and teacher.

Be like Nutella

Yeah GB seems like the ticket... 10 mins on the bus .. can probably pay by the class or month.. just need to get a Gi and I'm sorted coz it's Gi-only training isn't it I think?

quick q... ya can pick up a standard Gi in Dublin for under 80? couldn't ya? I know it's a how long is a piece of string q but for a beginner level guy?

MMA Lucan

Stillweak wrote: »

Traditional jiu jitsu practitioners are fat guys in their forties who go to community centres on Tuesday evenings and talk about what they would do in a fight if the situation ever came up.

Will enjoy telling the likes of Henry Fadipe, Aslan Bisayev, Ayo Daly & the rest of the Ryoshin Fight Team that they are considered to be a group of guys who talk about what they would do in a fight situation. Guess that's why Henry holds a pro Mma title & pro K1 title, & certainly explains why Aslan holds 4 titles. These guys have a strong JJJ background

MMA Lucan

Also for anyone interested we offer Freestyle wrestling every Wednesday 6:30 - 8pm.

Rooneymara

I was actually wondering about grappling in Ireland myself a while ago and came across this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collar-and-elbow

Every country had some grappling, its a wonder that Ireland didn't keep a more active grappling scene but then again Britain was much the same.

As for judo but effective in MMA, I think the rules of Judo have changed so much over the years that it is no longer as effective as it could have been in MMA. Having said that theres always Ronda

StcIreland

Be like Nutella wrote: »

deadly stuff lads cheers

could 75 it to Tallaght for Spartan alright but bit far...and it's a blue moon timetable... Kyuzu looks so deadly but too far away...2 buses

what's with the general lack of MMA-ing out on soutside? say Rathfarnham, Ballinteer side of things... really annoying. I remember SBG was so handy in Harolds Cross... then I got lazy and they moved

glad to see new BJJ Gracie Barra club on Orwell road.... but that's about it for MMA skills out my way... must give that a go in all fairness.... the coach seems to be a bit good by all accounts : )

I suppose there's a new K1 class startin in the new YF Gym in Harolds Cross... must check that out - 8 blips a class pretty good, wonder who the coach is.

If I won the lotto there'd be a kickass MMA gym in Rathfarnham, say there's a good market for it there... lot of young people round here.

You are always welcome to come down and try one of our many classes if you find yourself near our gym.

Our wrestling class is a mix of greco and freestyle and is a tough but enjoyable class


Here is our timetable just incase you would like a look to see what other classes we offer that you might like to try

http://www.stcireland.com/#!classes/c1yws
as well as this we do a judo class on a sunday morning from 12 until 1 if your interested in try that also.

magicherbs

MMA Lucan wrote: »

Will enjoy telling the likes of Henry Fadipe, Aslan Bisayev, Ayo Daly & the rest of the Ryoshin Fight Team that they are considered to be a group of guys who talk about what they would do in a fight situation. Guess that's why Henry holds a pro Mma title & pro K1 title, & certainly explains why Aslan holds 4 titles. These guys have a strong JJJ background

How strong is Henry's jjj background? If you are wasting his time with jjj that explains why he looks like he is being held back, no reason why Henry shouldn't be in Irish top three not ranked 9th

MMA Lucan

magicherbs wrote: »

How strong is Henry's jjj background? If you are wasting his time with jjj that explains why he looks like he is being held back, no reason why Henry shouldn't be in Irish top three not ranked 9th

The reason he's not top 3 is due to the fact that we made mistakes early in his career ie took fights with top opponents when Henry was just starting his professional career. We have huge confidence in his ability & he is maturing as a fighter & many of the early "teething" problems have been rectified. He's currently on a 5 fight win streak between MMA & K1 & improving all the time, lets not forget the mental aspect of the sport which plays a big part also. At the time competing against Ireland's best JMS, Ronan McKay etc all before turning 20. He's 21 now, & has come to the realisation of how serious a career he is in. His overall game is very tight, but much is disguised due to having such immense KO power, but along the lines of Jose Aldo, why use your bjj blackbelt ability if you can finish the guy standing. So I believe that the best of Henry is yet to be seen, & his JJJ (throws etc) have not been out into effect yet. But look this discussion is about wrestling so we'll keep it on topic for the op. if you need any convincing please drop in to our JJJ class anytime

Tom.D.BJJ

Lazlo and Victor teach the wrestling classes in Kyuzo. Lazlo won his division at Grapplepalooza last year while displaying some athlethic takedowns, great balance and pure tenacity. They also teach wrestling to the MMA fighters in Kyuzo which both Amanda and Grant put to good use last year..



http://kyuzogym.com/wrestling/

gatecrasher69er

I can agree with Cathal here,, I was in America sparring at drysdales and came up against a few guys, they tried relentlessly to get me down and I put them on there backs numerous times. And they were division 1 wrestlers, in saying that it might av been a different story if I was to just wrestle straight with them. I'm guessing they thought I'm from ireland and my wrestling would be s##t.

arybvtcw0eolkf

FERGAL7 wrote: »

To be fair couldn't an Irish fighter with high level Judo or Japanese Jujutsu cope with any wrestler??? :cool:

Yes.

JohnMc1

FERGAL7 wrote: »

Care to elaborate???

The Problem with Judo for MMA is that the vast majority of Judo clubs the Olympic style [ie. Throws only/ Nage Waza. Little to no Groundwork/Ne-Waza] Plus the recent rules changes for competitions hasn't helped at all.

Bres

Wrestling Classes & Clubs in Dublin:

Hercules Gym est.1935

ADULTS (must be a member of the gym, no guest fee available)

Tuesday 7 - 9
Thursday 7 - 9

KIDS (guest fee available)

Tuesday 6 - 7
Thursday 6 - 7

Spartan est.1960

ADULTS (guest fee available)

Tuesday 7 - 9
Thursday 7 - 9

KIDS (guest fee Available)

Thursday 6 - 7
Saturday 11 -12