The Big Problem With Windows 8 - Windows 9

bpb101

Hey foalks, Before i start , this thread is for people who have used windows 8 and DO NOT like It. Please do not reply if you think windows 8 is the best thing since slice bread. If you like windows 8 thats great start another thread about that.

This thread is about what will be introduced , kept and restored in windows 9 since such major changes have happened in windows 8 and has had such mixed reviews.
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First off, i don't like this new metro (or whatever there calling it these days) its impossible to use.(Desktops)

WINDOWS 8 Does NOT work for desktops. End of.

I only had the beta's but the store looks shíte However i think it is an expected in os these days. With impovements it could be good. ( well as good as windows can get )


We can all survive major bad relase of windows , but 2 in a row?
lets face it , if windows 7 had of been bad , we were all screwed.
you cant hold on to xp forever.



ALSO, if windows 9 is as bad or wrost , will people consider other OS's. With most Gamers using Desktops , will this push people to linux as mac's are locked to specific hardware ( ie , you cant build a mac (afaik)) and as steam for linux has started to bare fruit ( Steam for Linux thread here ) ?

Thoughts

Kensington

Agreed, I can see it being to Windows "9" what Windows Vista was to Windows 7.

I think they really, really dropped the ball forcing that Metro UI on you - at least with 7/Vista/XP you had the fallback Windows 2000-esque look available if you didn't like the new XP style start menu. No such option with Windows 8.
And OK, moving from Windows 3.1 up to Windows 95 they introduced the "Start Menu" and forced you to use it over Program Manager but frankly, the Start Menu concept made sense. That silly tiles thing doesn't make sense on a desktop or laptop. At all.

And again, OK Metro UI works great on a tablet and yes, I can see Microsoft's reasoning was to standardise to a single, consistent interface across phone, tablet and computer but it simply doesn't make any sense whatsoever on a non-touch screen device like a desktop workstation.

Something I can see being a major blocker from an Enterprise perspective - it (along with Windows Server 2012) refuses to work in a VMware environment on anything beneath ESX 5. I can't see many enterprises justifying the downtime and significant cost involved to upgrade their vSphere environment to ESX 5 just so they can run Windows 8 / Server 2012 when they can just as easily run Windows 7, a (at this stage) solid and proven OS. Then there's the added support and assistance that will be required to retrain everyone over to the "tiles" concept and away from that friendly Windows logo start menu in the bottom left. Too much hassle from a support perspective, on top of the inevitable compatibility issues you'll encounter along the way.

I can see most IT departments who are looking to move up from XP just moving up to Windows 7 instead, not Windows 8. And for Microsoft, Windows Vista was shunned by Enterprises and look how quickly Microsoft were to brush that one under the rug...

200motels

Somewhat

Yes I agree that Windows 8 is not up to it as far as a desktop is concerned, I got rid of it and went back to 7, the tiles looks so unprofessional, some of the apps look like they were thrown together by a child, it's the new Vista, well on second thoughts I'd prefer Vista to it, it's as bad as ME, XP would blow it away.

fifiyoyo

I've just got my hands on a new windows 8 laptop in college.. and safe to say after half an hour of using it i'll be returning to windows 7.. to me windows 8 is just as annoying as Vista and similar to an iPhone!!

bpb101

We all hate windows 8 , the question is
What will change. Will they keep the metro ui.?will they restore the start menu. Will they make a windows classic ?

unkel

bpb101 wrote: »

WINDOWS 8 Does NOT work for desktops. End of.

It works fine with classic shell. Back to windows 7 look and feel, but faster and leaner

blackbox

My guess is that they will bring out a servicepack that will allow it to boot to either the traditional desktop or to the metro system, thus making it ideal for either a pc or a touch screen device.

Working from the desktop, it appears to perform very well. The metro interface is meh.

testicle

Windows 8 works fine on my desktop, I prefer it. I've only what I need on the Start Screen. Anything else, just type the first few letters.

bpb101

blackbox wrote: »

My guess is that they will bring out a servicepack that will allow it to boot to either the traditional desktop or to the metro system, thus making it ideal for either a pc or a touch screen device.

Working from the desktop, it appears to perform very well. The metro interface is meh.

But are they under an illusion that metro is good? For A business for example, i could only see Having The travel app and the sports apps would only be a distraction for workers.

The apps on the tiles are pointless. Weather , travel, Calendar,
I know we are obsessed with the weather in Ireland but their a limit.
I can see Microsoft stubberness having a devesating effect.

_Kaiser_

I installed it on my laptop here and ran it for a month. I genuinely tried to give it a chance

- I spent 99% of my time in the Desktop anyway and the flat washed out 2D look just grated on me in the end. I LIKE Aero and its effects.. sue me!

- 1 day in I paid for Start8 to make it usable and, while a very decent effort for a fiver, is only about 80-90% of the traditional Start menu. That missing percentage (like full right-click menu support) is something you miss rapidly

- I used the TuneIn app a handful of times, that was all. No other "apps" as I don't want everything running full screen - especially when it's hooked to a 26" monitor. If I want "apps" I have my Galaxy Note 2 - more of them and far better quality. The "Modern" washed out, simplistic interface feels like it was designed by 5 year olds in many cases

- Boot up times (one of the "default" reasons given why Win 8 is so much better) - woohoo, it boots to the login screen in 4/5 seconds. Win 7 does it in about 8 (256GB Samsung SSD on a Vostro 3350 with 8GB RAM). 3 seconds! That's ages alright :rolleyes:

Back to Win 7 Enterprise (yay Technet ) since the weekend and I won't be moving off it any time soon

bpb101

Going to put up a poll ,

Will Microsoft learn their lesson and fix 9?

_Kaiser_

bpb101 wrote: »

Going to put up a poll ,

Will Microsoft learn their lesson and fix 9?

It's not an easy answer :

1. It depends on how badly (if at all) sales are affected by word of mouth of the poor experience

2. Whether the OEM's complain because their PC/laptop sales suffer or they are inundated with support calls

3. How businesses react

Normally 2 & 3 would be the big deciders, but MS seem to be pitching this primarily/solely at the iPad market and trying to compete with the iPhone/Android phone explosion - whether they'll succeed will be the big question but early indications would suggest that the Surface and WP8 aren't doing great.

My own prediction is that SP1 will ship with an option to choose between "Desktop Mode" and "Touch" - the former restoring the full Start menu and disabling the Modern/Metro interface entirely, or at least enough that it's just treated as another application.

Fysh

More of this "it's the new Vista" stuff. It's not, for a simple reason - the problems you have appear to be down to the UI. This is entirely legitimate, but easily fixed - install ClassicShell, or Start8 or any of the alternatives, and bang! Solved.

Vista had a number of actual core technical issues (beyond being sold on hardware that couldn't run it) - things like the period during which a large range of graphics cards were not supported with driver releases which led to DWM crashing constantly, or the issue with copy and paste taking hours for what should have been seconds worth of file transfers, or the performance problems associated with ReadyBoost and Superfetch.

Before you say "Well, XP then", XP had problems too - the SP0 release was atrocious, and even SP1 was barely comparable to Win2K. It took SP2 (April 2004, after XP went on sale in November 2001) for XP to become the OS that is today the nostalgic gold standard Windows release for so many people.

If you believe articles like this Windows 9 is just around the corner (CES 2014 for first previews, Nov 2014 release). That being said, such a short development time would guarantee that it'll be iterative, rather than revolutionary, and frankly only an overall failure of both Windows 8 and Windows Phone 8 will lead to a substantial deviation from MS' current trajectory.

How businesses react will be interesting - Win8 allows for enterprise corps to deal with the big BYOD issue through Windows To Go, which sounds like a great idea to me and would actually resolve a number of real-world problems I've dealt with at work before. Tablet support means that corporates finally have an option whereby people wanting fancy fondleslabs can be given one where the hardware coverage and software support matches the rest of their environment (for those who don't know, business or corporate hardware support agreements usually work on a Next Business Day On-site support basis, but with Apple you get to either take it to the shop or have it collected by a repair service, with a 1-2 week turnaround time most of the time. And of course no support for any Windows-only or bespoke software). Windows Phone 8 seems weird to me, but that's because they were already doing quite well several years ago with Windows CE at the corporate side, until they massively fumbled their response to RIM.

Needless to say, for all the kvetching about the UI I don't think any allegation of Windows 8 being "the new Vista" carries any weight for anyone who knows even a little about the history of recent Windows releases.

_Kaiser_

Fysh wrote: »

More of this "it's the new Vista" stuff. It's not, for a simple reason - the problems you have appear to be down to the UI. This is entirely legitimate, but easily fixed - install ClassicShell, or Start8 or any of the alternatives, and bang! Solved.

It shouldn't be necessary to install 3rd party tools to restore basic functionality though - that's the point. And even with those 2 tools, they aren't 100% fixes (see my post earlier)

Vista had a number of actual core technical issues .... Before you say "Well, XP then", XP had problems too

Agreed, but that's not the point being discussed here. Win 8 is just as good with performance and driver support (for most recent hardware anyway) as 7 was.. the point is the ethos/mindset behind the changes that were implemented and the effects it's having on a lot of people - ie: this "you'll take what we give you and like it!" approach to the Metro/Modern interface. People don't like change generally, and certainly not when it's forced on them like Metro/Modern has been, at the cost of 15 years of established workflow and familiarity.

frankly only an overall failure of both Windows 8 and Windows Phone 8 will lead to a substantial deviation from MS' current trajectory.

Very possible. Let's be honest here, Win 8/WP8/Surface is MSFT's attempt to grab some of that iPhone/iPad pie.

Unfortunately they're a bit late to the party given there's already 2 dominant players and device ownership is at saturation point. Add that to the fact that both alternatives require you to buy into their ecosystems for best results and theres no real incentive for people to switch - especially as the prices are as high (or more!) than the alternatives.

How businesses react will be interesting - Win8 allows for enterprise corps to deal with the big BYOD issue through Windows To Go, which sounds like a great idea to me and would actually resolve a number of real-world problems I've dealt with at work before. Tablet support means that corporates finally have an option whereby people wanting fancy fondleslabs can be given one where the hardware coverage and software support matches the rest of their environment (for those who don't know, business or corporate hardware support agreements usually work on a Next Business Day On-site support basis, but with Apple you get to either take it to the shop or have it collected by a repair service, with a 1-2 week turnaround time most of the time. And of course no support for any Windows-only or bespoke software).

I think that a lot of businesses who have just recently finished a rollout to Win 7 (or are still in the middle of doing so) will sit this one out myself.

Paying again for Server 2012 (which of course is also needed for full Win 8 support) + new touch hardware + training required to support these isn't something I can see a lot of companies investing in - especially as many of these decision makers will already have iPhones/iPads or their Android equivalents

Windows Phone 8 seems weird to me, but that's because they were already doing quite well several years ago with Windows CE at the corporate side, until they massively fumbled their response to RIM.

Lets not forget that RIM is rapidly going the way of the dinosaur too, and WP8 is further behind again. As I said, too late to the party I think.

Needless to say, for all the kvetching about the UI I don't think any allegation of Windows 8 being "the new Vista" carries any weight for anyone who knows even a little about the history of recent Windows releases.

Vista failed because of how it was perceived - as you pointed out by the time SP2 rolled around, most of the hardware/performance issues had been fixed, ditto with XP before it.

Unfortunately by then the damage had already been done and Win 7 was out which is widely acknowledged as "what Vista should have been" hence its success.

With this in mind, stripping back features in Win 8 (Start Menu, Aero etc) is just a step backwards - hence "the new Vista"

Fysh

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

It shouldn't be necessary to install 3rd party tools to restore basic functionality though - that's the point. And even with those 2 tools, they aren't 100% fixes (see my post earlier)

UI != "basic funcionality".

Basic functionality fails would be:

• no TRIM/SSD support
• no >2TB drive/partition support
• no native wired/wireless network support
• no native touch support

and so on.

Not having a UI you like is a completely different scenario, because there is no such thing as "a standard UI". Unfortunately the history of Windows development is such that you have generally been offered either "The New Shiny" or "What We'll Call Classic Windows", with no supported mechanism to move beyond that. The same exact problem has done the rounds in the Linux world for several years - look at the howls of outrage that have greeted KDE4, Gnome 3 or the Unity interfaces. The key difference there was that installing an alternative interface is about as difficult as "sudo apt-get install XFCE".

Nonetheless - a specific approach to the UI is not "basic functionality". I do agree that MS should've provided a "classic Windows" UI option though, and hope they'll introduce one in SP1. I wouldn't bet on it though.

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

Agreed, but that's not the point being discussed here. Win 8 is just as good with performance and driver support (for most recent hardware anyway) as 7 was.. the point is the ethos/mindset behind the changes that were implemented and the effects it's having on a lot of people - ie: this "you'll take what we give you and like it!" approach to the Metro/Modern interface. People don't like change generally, and certainly not when it's forced on them like Metro/Modern has been, at the cost of 15 years of established workflow and familiarity.

Yeah, but if you don't like change why are you upgrading to an OS about 3 months old?

If you didn't want it and had it forced on you with a new computer, ask about downgrade rights. If you upgraded to it, well, give yourself a stern talking to and stop projecting the blame elsewhere for your own decision.

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

Very possible. Let's be honest here, Win 8/WP8/Surface is MSFT's attempt to grab some of that iPhone/iPad pie.

Unfortunately they're a bit late to the party given there's already 2 dominant players and device ownership is at saturation point. Add that to the fact that both alternatives require you to buy into their ecosystems for best results and theres no real incentive for people to switch - especially as the prices are as high (or more!) than the alternatives.

Device ownership is only at saturation point for certain assumptions - one of the most interesting discoveries in recent surveys about phone/tablet/computer usage is that the increasing overlap in functionality means that device ownership is, in certain sectors, going beyond the 100% traditionally viewed as the maximum.

As for "2 dominant players" - so what? Five years ago there were no dominant players. This is an area of technology; and competition fosters change. More players is a good thing, and what MS bring to the table with 8 is the ability to have an entire corporate environment that runs Windows stuff and interoperates out of the box. If you've ever dealt with Apple support on a corporately-owned piece of equipment you'd know what a complete ballache they are compared to every other corporate vendor - no other company things that they shouldn't offer corporate customers any support upgrade over what consumers get, or that corporates will be happy with a 1-2 week turnaround on hardware repairs. Having MS compete with them in this arena with Windows-based tablets that can be domain-bound and therefore work with GPOs and all the rest of it is, to my mind, a huge potential sell. It will take 5 years for this to percolate down through the larger players though, so we're nowhere close to seeing how it'll be received.

But speaking as a windows sysadmin, I can tell you right now that the choice of End-to-End Windows in a primarily-MS environment over Windows-on-the-server-and-desktop-but-bloody-iOS-on-the-bastarding-tablet is hardly a choice at all - the key is whether the end users will use a WinTablet over an iPad. Ie whether they can convince their workplace that there's a work benefit to spending money on fruity tech over MS tech.

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

I think that a lot of businesses who have just recently finished a rollout to Win 7 (or are still in the middle of doing so) will sit this one out myself.

Paying again for Server 2012 (which of course is also needed for full Win 8 support) + new touch hardware + training required to support these isn't something I can see a lot of companies investing in - especially as many of these decision makers will already have iPhones/iPads or their Android equivalents

That's true of every major Windows release. Hell, I saw the same exact thing said about XP in the large corporate for whom I formerly worked - it took them something like 5 years after the release of XP to get around to migrating off Win2K to XP, and the same again with XP to Vista according to friends of mine who were still working there.

Big Corporates are slow to change, but they retain their Volume License agreements anyway because the upgrade treadmill is cheaper than the alternative. Microsoft know this and plan accordingly.

From an administrative and support overhead perspective, iDevices are the devil's own arsehole. Apple's software and phone support is pretty good, but their turnaround times for hardware are diabolical by business support standards - everywhere else will offer Next Business Day On-site support, Apple give you either "take it to the shop and see what they can do" or "a repair centre will collect it and fix it in 1-2 weeks". When I've raised this with them, their response has been "why don't you buy a few to keep as spares?" and my answer to that is "Because I don't want $%^&ing spares, I want NBD on-site service!" So once MS has their products out and has shown that they can easily integrate into mainly-MS environments, it should be easy to make the business case for consolidating onto WinTabs from iOS devices because the costs of maintenance will be reduced by doing so.

If they fumble that aspect, they'll deserve (and get) an absolute shoeing. But I don't think they'd be stupid enough to get it that badly wrong.

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

Lets not forget that RIM is rapidly going the way of the dinosaur too, and WP8 is further behind again. As I said, too late to the party I think.

On a personal note I'd be inclined to agree, but it's too early to call I think.

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

Vista failed because of how it was perceived - as you pointed out by the time SP2 rolled around, most of the hardware/performance issues had been fixed, ditto with XP before it.

Unfortunately by then the damage had already been done and Win 7 was out which is widely acknowledged as "what Vista should have been" hence its success.

With this in mind, stripping back features in Win 8 (Start Menu, Aero etc) is just a step backwards - hence "the new Vista"

Err no. Vista failed based on how it was perceived because for the first 18 months of its lifecycle, when people used it, it was crap. Win 8 has a disorienting UI for a few minutes, and after that a mildly frustrating UI - if you're buying in a shop, they either show you around the UI as part of the pitch (see Overheal's posts elsewhere in this forum) or they're crap salespeople. (Seriously, if the difference between making a sale or not is "here, let me show you something called ClassicShell" and you don't spend 30 seconds making sure you've got that bit of your pitch down, you're in the wrong job).

Ten minutes in front of Win8 on a desktop and I can show someone how to use it enough that there's no greater difference between it and Win7 (with a couple of tricks) than there are between any two Windows releases. I think people here are turning "I don't like Notro" into an enormous landmine when at best it's a pothole, and an easily resolved one at that.

fifiyoyo

What you could also do is run a dual boot with windows 7 and 8, keep everyone happy then!!

Capt'n Midnight

fifiyoyo wrote: »

What you could also do is run a dual boot with windows 7 and 8, keep everyone happy then!!

Especially microsoft's licencing dept. since you would need two licenses per machine

Capt'n Midnight

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

Very possible. Let's be honest here, Win 8/WP8/Surface is MSFT's attempt to grab some of that iPhone/iPad pie.

Unfortunately they're a bit late to the party given there's already 2 dominant players and device ownership is at saturation point. Add that to the fact that both alternatives require you to buy into their ecosystems for best results and theres no real incentive for people to switch - especially as the prices are as high (or more!) than the alternatives.

Ubuntu is also trying to get in there too. And that means a vast range of ready to roll zero cost apps.

Lets not forget that RIM is rapidly going the way of the dinosaur too, and WP8 is further behind again. As I said, too late to the party I think.

Don't discount RIM yet. Their party pieces are device/email security. If your CEO gets something stolen, you'll sleep happier if it was a BB. They still have loads of cash and are reportedly handing Nokia a fiver per device in royalties.

Nokia are probably road kill unless they can pull something out of a hat, and it's just about possible given they have a large codebase and a history of UI's that may not have been slick but have been very easy to use. Yes they are leading in Windows 8 sales, but it's only 20% of windows phones which is only a few % of smartphones
http://wmpoweruser.com/nokia-sells-more-than-70-of-windows-phone-8-handsets-but-htc-8x-does-benefit-from-being-on-more-carriers/


For some people ebook readers are indespensible devices. I wonder if there is a market for an ebook reader that incorporates a basic mobile phone - no apps just SMS / email / maybe camera and a battery that lasts all month. Stick a solar panel behind the display and you can live without wires.

Fysh

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

For some people ebook readers are indespensible devices. I wonder if there is a market for an ebook reader that incorporates a basic mobile phone - no apps just SMS / email / maybe camera and a battery that lasts all month. Stick a solar panel behind the display and you can live without wires.

Drop the camera, have the rear of the phone as an eInk display for low-power book reading and a monochrome front screen for text-based stuff like sms & email, and I think it's achievable. In fact, tell some of the bods in electronics might view it as a challenge

scarab47

Powershell came to my rescue I just dont use the app crap.

Overheal

fifiyoyo wrote: »

I've just got my hands on a new windows 8 laptop in college.. and safe to say after half an hour of using it i'll be returning to windows 7.. to me windows 8 is just as annoying as Vista and similar to an iPhone!!

Did you find the desktop.

I'd take it as a given, but I've had customers stumble around the OS for an hour and never realize the desktop was still there.

The only major thing they switched was the start menu is now a start screen.

I don't use the Start UI much on the Desktop at all myself, and I'm running 8 on 3 devices: A Tablet, a Convertible Laptop, and the Desktop. I will poke around with the app store but its hardly a mature thing yet. I was however delighted to see when Comixology replaced their "holy**** windows8 launched" foot-hold app with what was finally ("finally" - a 90 day development cycle?) a full functioning version of their app for browsing reading and buying comics. Its probably a microcosm for the whole app market, with developers getting their feet still. The Store UI itself is also infantile, but so was Steam when it launched when you compare it to what Steam is today.

If you want a real Win 8 annoyance its got to be the little technical hiccups the SP0 has, such as the fact that it generally doesn't like to wake up properly from Sleep in all cases, or the Wifi connectivity can be temperamental on some models. Samsung laptops especially have some pretty interested side-effects but I can't say that's not just a compatibility issue with our Demo software (and it probably is).

Your Downgrade Rights: only really applies to laptops with Windows 8 Pro preinstalled (read: Business-grade laptops). The vast majority of PCs with Windows 8 (core) don't have those rights, nor do those models generally have driver support for Windows 7 - not signed driver support anyway. By the end of the year it will be even harder, because they won't bother supporting newer hardware on Windows 7 much at all. More of a problem for laptops, but what else is new?

I'm happy with it on my desktop, especially after adding all my additional partitions to my file index. I store a ton of random crap, and its extremely advantageous to me to be able to, within seconds, find a document I typed up 6 years ago where I made a mention of chicken soup or something in the body of the text. Something most people can fix with good file organization, but good luck with a perfect filing system if you've migrated your files as often as I have. Between reformats (for giggles, science, etc) and new PC hardware, My Music Library for instance has been tossed around like a curious cheerleader.

As much as I've moaned about it in the past, I do use it on my desktop. I installed it properly a few days ago and have no urges to go back. Apart from the ribbon I seem to be doing relatively okay with everything else. I found that removing the crap from the Start screen and replacing it with your own "crap" is the way to go. And the right-click menu in the bottom left helps a lot.

cgarrad

Desktop is no longer the primary focus.

Got to move with the times...

http://entertainment.msn.com/news/articlev2.aspx?news=783956

_Kaiser_

Overheal wrote: »

The Store UI itself is also infantile, but so was Steam when it launched when you compare it to what Steam is today.

Just on that point.

That was fine for Steam as when it launched it was pretty much the first of its kind, but there can be no excuse for the MS market given the fact that the Apple Store, Android Market/Play Store etc have been around years now and MSFT has never been shy to "imitate" others when necessary.

MS need to be doing it better than the rest (or at least just as well) if they plan to make any real inroads with this new OS.

Capt'n Midnight

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

MS need to be doing it better than the rest (or at least just as well) if they plan to make any real inroads with this new OS.

Or they need to keep the corporates on side because that's where the real money is.


Make no mistake, Microsoft could give OEM windows / works away free tomorrow for all home users and still stay in business based on revenue for business licenses and home users who buy upgrade to office / professional versions of windows.

They really don't need to listen to home users unless it impacts on business use.

Zascar

Karsini wrote: »

As much as I've moaned about it in the past, I do use it on my desktop. I installed it properly a few days ago and have no urges to go back. Apart from the ribbon I seem to be doing relatively okay with everything else. I found that removing the crap from the Start screen and replacing it with your own "crap" is the way to go. And the right-click menu in the bottom left helps a lot.

Seriously, install Pokki

cgarrad

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Or they need to keep the corporates on side because that's where the real money is.


Make no mistake, Microsoft could give OEM windows / works away free tomorrow for all home users and still stay in business based on revenue for business licenses and home users who buy upgrade to office / professional versions of windows.

They really don't need to listen to home users unless it impacts on business use.

The UI formerly know as metro is not aimed at business. Clear consumer play to tie in surface, WP8 and Xbox

cgarrad

Why do computer literate people think you need a pre W8 start menu? Its madness.

If you cant use W8 you need to see a doctor ;-)

_Kaiser_

cgarrad wrote: »

Why do computer literate people think you need a pre W8 start menu? Its madness.

If you cant use W8 you need to see a doctor ;-)

It's not about CAN'T use it - it's not wanting to use something that makes day-to-day tasks more frustrating unnecessarily and where the only reason for this is MS trying to shoehorn the Windows Phone UI onto devices that aren't suited to it.

On a tablet or phone Metro/Modern is fine (albeit very minimalist and washed out), but on a standard PC or laptop it's just inconvenient, and despite what the marketing spin will have you believe, I think that phones and tablets are great for games, web browsing, e-books etc but if I want to do any real work my first port of call will still be my laptop/desktop with its physical keyboard and mouse

cgarrad

Agree but tablets are (unfortunately) the way the world is heading.

W8 is the same as windows 7 except the start menu is already open, but live with realtime information.

Why would people want to get rid of that?

Its one click to desktop. One click......

Zascar

Zascar wrote: »

Seriously, install Pokki

I'm actually giving vanilla Windows 8 a go for now to see how I get on with it. If I can get by without a third party Start button then all the better.