Have you been here a while and if so, happy with it?

IamtheWalrus

I've been in the city for 2+ years now. I moved over of my own accord; not because I was forced to because of the 'down-turn'. I've been home a good few times to my visit my family and to Dublin to visit friends.

Over Xmas I was visiting my left-behind Dublin friends for a night out. This was the second time in 2012 I was in Dublin. I had lived there for 5 years before London.

Didn't like it. I'm not sure if it was Dublin or Ireland I didn't like but I didn't like it. London is just different; it's better. It's way better. I've always been a bit left of centre and the diversity of London suits me. It's not just that; it's everything. I look back on remaining 5 years in Ireland and I resent 90% of it. At least 90% of it. Do any of you feel that way? I thought I was enjoying Ireland but when I look back, I wasn't. London has allowed the freedom to be anonymous to an extent. I was sitting around a table in a bar in Dublin last weekend. I looked around the table and there were very few people I felt like chatting to.

It took me about a year to get used the place but now I love it. I can't see me moving back to Ireland at all. I may move to another country but not Ireland.

Bullseye1

We get it you don't like Ireland.

bleepp

Is it not a case of travel broadens the mind?

You have seen London, Got used to the diversity and the anonymity that a big city offers. It doesn't mean Dublin is any less fun just that its different, and the social scene is significantly smaller.

I'm sure if you lived in another Global hot-spot it would show up the flaws London has (traffic, pollution etc) and lead you to believe it might not be all that it's cracked up to be.

IamtheWalrus

bleepp wrote: »

Is it not a case of travel broadens the mind?

You have seen London, Got used to the diversity and the anonymity that a big city offers. It doesn't mean Dublin is any less fun just that its different, and the social scene is significantly smaller.

I'm sure if you lived in another Global hot-spot it would show up the flaws London has (traffic, pollution etc) and lead you to believe it might not be all that it's cracked up to be.

That's a possibility. Maybe the conclusion I should have come to is that any city beyond Dublin is better?

visual

IamtheWalrus wrote: »

That's a possibility. Maybe the conclusion I should have come to is that any city beyond Dublin is better?

Do you want vinger to put on the chips you have on your sholders.

bleepp

IamtheWalrus wrote: »

That's a possibility. Maybe the conclusion I should have come to is that any city beyond Dublin is better?

Well I don't know about that! Dublin is supposed to be the friendly city of culture that attracts thousands every year. Dublin isn't the problem. The kind of life you are now used to and the social scene you identify with isn't in Dublin. I think that's the issue really.

I remember when I started going out, my local pub was the spot to go. Then town seemed better so we headed there and suddenly my local seemed dull and boring. Right now I prefer Dublin night life to my local town back home, just because I'm more used to it I suppose.

Just be happy your not stuck in the quiet village pub and have a massive city to explore

IamtheWalrus

visual wrote: »

Do you want vinger to put on the chips you have on your sholders.

I think you may have picked me up wrong and my last post would have caused that. I mean that the reason I like London more than Dublin is because it's a more expansive city; it's bigger and more to offer; more important city on the world scene ans able to attract more things, hence why I'd find it more interesting to me. And by mentioned that maybe I like London more than London is because it's a more prestigious city and therefore more things happen there as opposed to a less prestigious city. I'll give a non-representative example; a major aports tournament or a scientific endeavour is more likely to take place in London than Dublin.

Fysh

Mod note: Threads discussing things you like or dislike in London are welcome. Discussions about why Dublin/Ireland is rubbish are not.

OP, I can understand your position to some extent - the diversity of population and culture in London outstrips what you'd find anywhere in Ireland, and so when you start to get accustomed to the place it's easy to look at Ireland generally and find it lacking.

However, it's important to remember that while London is a great city it's not perfect. I found in my first year here that a surprising number of people are very flaky about meeting up socially (i've known people who would make 3 or 4 sets of plans for a given night, then choose whatever seemed most appealing on the night). The sheer size of it means that getting around can be a time-consuming arseache (eg getting from Balham to Kilburn if the tube's not running takes the best part of a couple of hours). It's not an easy city to live in you're not earning reasonably good money (by which I mean you'd want to be at least a couple of grand over the national average salary to live here comfortably).

I'm pointing this stuff out because no city is perfect. I felt the same way about Cork after 5 years as you seem to feel about Dublin now, and it took me a while to accept that despite having grown bored of the place, I'd still enjoyed most of my time living there - and more importantly, I'd then moved on to live somewhere else and was enjoying my time living in the new place too.

Emigrating abroad will give you a fresh perspective on Ireland, and it's natural that the first thing you'll notice is that Ireland doesn't have all the cool fun things that your new home has. Don't let that fool you into becoming one of those Irish people abroad who endlessly bitches about Ireland - you've emigrated now, Ireland isn't your problem or worry anymore, so focus on enjoying your new home instead

seachto7

What would a comfortable salary be in London? I know it depends on the role, but an average salary for a professional in London? What should one be looking at minimum to earn plus a few grand on top to make it worth their while working in London?

philologos

OP: At my stage in life, London's great. It's really easy to chisel yourself out a life here, and meet new people and so on. For me one of the major plusses about London was that I was able to find a good church and get involved relatively quickly whereas I think it would be a lot more difficult to find somewhere as an evangelical Christian pretty much in any other large city in Europe.

The work is really challenging and it's providing me a means of getting more established as a programmer / software engineer. There's so much to see and do in London, and it's been a great experience getting to know lots of different people here. I live in an interesting area, not too close to the centre, but yet not too far away either.

There are downsides to London that I can think of. For example, the busy nature of it all, getting in and out of work. Sometimes even the pavements are entirely congested. I wasn't much used to that concept prior to coming here. I don't know about other people but sometimes I just have to leave London every so often just because it does at times seem quite claustrophobic almost. I don't know if that's quite what I mean but just hopping on a train and seeing something green or going somewhere quieter is great. I can imagine that as I get older I'd probably like to move somewhere else, I think London could get too much eventually.

djpbarry

IamtheWalrus wrote: »

London is just different; it's better. It's way better.

You can’t think of any downsides to London at all? The extortionate rents, for example? The time it can take to get from A to B? “Engineering works” every poxy weekend? The stifling heat on the tube in the summer?

IamtheWalrus wrote: »

I was sitting around a table in a bar in Dublin last weekend. I looked around the table and there were very few people I felt like chatting to.

Seems obvious to me that the problem is the people you hang out with in Dublin.

IamtheWalrus wrote: »

That's a possibility. Maybe the conclusion I should have come to is that any city beyond Dublin is better?

Really? Any city? Go and take a train to Wolverhampton. Or Coventry. Five minutes in either will instil a new-found appreciation for all things Dub.

It might also interest you to know that Dublin frequently ranks (above London) as one of the best cities in the world to live. Granted, such surveys are to be taken with a pinch of salt, but if Dublin consistently features so prominently, it couldn’t be all that bad.

rgmmg

I have been here on and off for the past 12 years. I miss Dublin though. Flying back (here) is never easy. Saw a grown man with a wife and kid in tears as he was boarding the flight back after Xmas. I know a lot know what that feels like

djpbarry

rgmmg wrote: »

I have been here on and off for the past 12 years. I miss Dublin though. Flying back (here) is never easy.

I think I only really miss Dublin when I'm actually there! Or more precisely, when I'm about to leave - I'm always a bit meloncholic on my way to the airport.

ChRoMe

seachto7 wrote: »

What would a comfortable salary be in London? I know it depends on the role, but an average salary for a professional in London? What should one be looking at minimum to earn plus a few grand on top to make it worth their while working in London?

40k minimum.

Fysh

ChRoMe wrote: »

40k minimum.

That's highballing, I'd have thought. I reckon that to live comfortably you'd want to be on £27-30K, and certainly you wouldn't want to be below £25K.

djpbarry

ChRoMe wrote: »

40k minimum.

That's ridiculously high - it's possible to live comfortably in London on about £10k less than that.

Of course, this all depends on what one's definition of "comfortably" is.

Playboy

djpbarry wrote: »

That's ridiculously high - it's possible to live comfortably in London on about £10k less than that.

Of course, this all depends on what one's definition of "comfortably" is.

Depends on job and social life largely imo. I'd struggle on 40k because due to my work I have to socialise a lot (for networking etc) which can be ridiculously expensive if you are in and around the city.

Of course you can live comfortably on 25k if you are prepared to live a bit further out and not waste a lot of money eating and drinking in the more pricey establishments. It's all about the lifestyle you have or aspire to have when you come here that will determine what's comfortable so there is no real right answer to the question.

Otacon

Been here 5 years. Came over just before the downturn truly hit. I consider it home now. Only thing I miss about Ireland are my family and friends.

enda1

If you're a single person and want to live comfortably by which I mean:
-Live in zone 1 or 2 in a 1 bed apt in a grand area (£1200)
-Eat decent food out sometimes (£150)
-Save a bit (£500)
-3 to 4 return flights a year to somewhere + some accommodations (£150)
-Money for socialising (£250)
-Transport (£100)
-Household Bills (£250)
-Phone (£50)
-Household food and stuff (£200)
These prices are per month

That adds up to £2850 which is about £50k I think per year.

philologos

You can live comfortably outside Zone 1

enda1

philologos wrote: »

You can live comfortably outside Zone 1

I said zone 1 or 2.

philologos

enda1 wrote: »

I said zone 1 or 2.

It seems to me that as people get more senior in terms of work that they tend to move further out than further in. Like to the surrounding counties.

It depends on what "comfortable" is to begin with.

enda1

philologos wrote: »

It seems to me that as people get more senior in terms of work that they tend to move further out than further in. Like to the surrounding counties.

It depends on what "comfortable" is to begin with.

Single people, really!?

philologos

enda1 wrote: »

Single people, really!?

Some people like to live further away.

It largely depends on how you define comfortable. I couldn't imagine spending £2850 just on myself in a month. I don't know why living in zone 1 or 2 or even living alone counts as comfortable.

I guess I'd mean enough to reasonably get by plus a bit more.

Fysh

It depends how important living by yourself is, but certainly I'd say that a budget in which I had to spend at least £1200 on rent alone would get the hairy eyeball from me. There again, it's about 7 years since I was in a flatshare and 9 since I was in one with people I didn't know before I moved in...

I will say that anyone who actually wants to live in Zone 1 has whatever destruction is visited upon their finances coming. I've never seen the appeal - it tends to be poky and noisy.

seachto7

Ah, I'm, not talking about flashing the cash, but I wouldn't like to be there and be "struggling" all the time.

So, a ballpark figure would be £30K? I'd defo live with people. Where? I don't know. It would depend on where I got a job. I'm considering London. There are jobs in my area there. But I'm also considering Canada. It's a tough choice to make, but nice to have the choice too...

enda1

philologos wrote: »

Some people like to live further away.

It largely depends on how you define comfortable. I couldn't imagine spending £2850 just on myself in a month. I don't know why living in zone 1 or 2 or even living alone counts as comfortable.

I guess I'd mean enough to reasonably get by plus a bit more.

I've never met a single person living in London who chose for any reason other than financial not to live in zone 1/2. For me, if working in London and to have a comfortable life, commutable times and distances must be kept short. So it's paramount.

I've spent that on myself and often do, though I am in a couple so that number is much larger for us two. But then like you say it depends how you define comfortable. I defined my version in my post, I never said it was for everyone. Also note that 500 of that budget was savings. So it's not all being "spent".

philologos

Even as a single person I wouldn't choose to live in zone 1. I prefer where I am in zone 4. I like being a bit further out. I could easily see myself if I stay working where I am longer term moving out to one of the surrounding counties. London's great but I also like quiet and space. That's not something I'd ever get in zone 1.

But I guess you're right as most people become more senior in work and move further out it's probably down to getting married or starting a family. But that's an entirely natural thing to think about.

Edit: £2350 alone would be a heck of a lot for me also.

enda1

philologos wrote: »

Even as a single person I wouldn't choose to live in zone 1. I prefer where I am in zone 4. I like being a bit further out. I could easily see myself if I stay working where I am longer term moving out to one of the surrounding counties. London's great but I also like quiet and space. That's not something I'd ever get in zone 1.

But I guess you're right as most people become more senior in work and move further out it's probably down to getting married or starting a family. But that's an entirely natural thing to think about.

I'd prefer myself to bring up a family in London, but I understand others think differently and can see their viewpoint.

Fysh

I'd still be casting a hairy eyeball over any budget setting aside £250 for beverages, £150 for eating out *and* £200 for keeping the kitchen stocked. Thats either some very expensive tastes or being seen coming a mile off by merchants, I'd say

As far as rearing a family in central london goes, beyond the purely financial side competition for things like school or creche spaces can be fierce in a way you just wouldn't deal with further out. Not to mention availability of more spacious properties.

I should point out that I love living in zone 2, but I know several folks living in zone 3 or 4 and a couple of people in zone 6 - as far as I know none of the decisions were purely financial, and they all seem happy where they are. Horses for courses, I think.

enda1

Fysh wrote: »

I'd still be casting a hairy eyeball over any budget setting aside £250 for beverages, £150 for eating out *and* £200 for keeping the kitchen stocked. Thats either some very expensive tastes or being seen coming a mile off by merchants, I'd say

As far as rearing a family in central london goes, beyond the purely financial side competition for things like school or creche spaces can be fierce in a way you just wouldn't deal with further out. Not to mention availability of more spacious properties.

I should point out that I love living in zone 2, but I know several folks living in zone 3 or 4 and a couple of people in zone 6 - as far as I know none of the decisions were purely financial, and they all seem happy where they are. Horses for courses, I think.

1. I do have expensive tastes :P
2. 250 a month on socialising is including theatre, cinema, shows etc. no just drinks. That's only 60 a week!
3. 200 on food is hardly extortionate, I mean that's less than 50 a week. I know as a couple we spend more than 100 a week on food and household things.
4. 150 on eating out again is not huge money. 1 meal out per week.

Scarinae

Well I know I personally spend a lot less than that on rent and bills, but a lot more on travel. It just depends what your priorities are really.

djpbarry

enda1 wrote: »

If you're a single person and want to live comfortably by which I mean:
-Live in zone 1 or 2 in a 1 bed apt in a grand area (£1200)
-Eat decent food out sometimes (£150)
-Save a bit (£500)
-3 to 4 return flights a year to somewhere + some accommodations (£150)
-Money for socialising (£250)
-Transport (£100)
-Household Bills (£250)
-Phone (£50)
-Household food and stuff (£200)
These prices are per month

That adds up to £2850 which is about £50k I think per year.

Dude, that's way beyond "comfortably". The idea that you have to live on your own in Zone 1 or 2 and spend £250 per month on bills to be "comfortable" is madness.

enda1

djpbarry wrote: »

Dude, that's way beyond "comfortably". The idea that you have to live on your own in Zone 1 or 2 and spend £250 per month on bills to be "comfortable" is madness.

Each to their own.

Council tax plus water plus gas plus electricity plus tv plus broadband adds up.

djpbarry

enda1 wrote: »

Each to their own.

But the point is it's not representative.

It was asked what sort of salary would allow one to live comfortably in London.

But you've provided a ballpark figure for someone living on their own. Now, living on your own might be a prerequisite to being comfortable for you. But, considering that the vast majority of Londoners do not live on their own (because it doesn't make financial sense to do so), it's not really a meaningful answer.

And quite apart from that, you'll be doing very well to get a decent 1-bed flat in (a "grand" area in) Zones 1 or 2 for £1,200 per month.

Playboy

djpbarry wrote: »

But the point is it's not representative.

It was asked what sort of salary would allow one to live comfortably in London.

But you've provided a ballpark figure for someone living on their own. Now, living on your own might be a prerequisite to being comfortable for you. But, considering that the vast majority of Londoners do not live on their own (because it doesn't make financial sense to do so), it's not really a meaningful answer.

And quite apart from that, you'll be doing very well to get a decent 1-bed flat in (a "grand" area in) Zones 1 or 2 for £1,200 per month.

Does it have to be representative? A question was asked and he answered wrt what he defines as comfortable. I define comfortable differently to you and that doesn't make mine or edna1's opinion any less valid.

For me comfortable in London as a single person to be able to enjoy the city and not worry too much about money I would have to earn £40-£50k. If I was earning less I would have to be much more controlled with my budget, wouldn't be able to save very much and would be massively restricted in where I wanted to live and how much I socialize. I know this because I have earned much less than that when I got here first and now I earn more than that. I live in zone 3 and by no means live a life of luxury and to some extent I still have to watch the pennies.

I dont think there is any point trying to define an objective number or telling other people their opinion isnt as valid as anothers as each person will have their own view dependent on their lifestyle and needs.

dmcg90

I'm currently looking for a job in London, I was wondering if my budget is reasonable. These are per month

Rent: £800 PCM + Bills inc (I've shared all my life and I don't want to live on my own at the moment so I think thats reasonable for a reasonable double room in zone 2)
Travel: £100 per month (Only a ballpark figure for living in Zone 2)
Food: £150 (Only stopped being a student 5 months ago so I know how to live on the cheap but I think thats more than enough, I spend about €100 a month here on Food)
Socialising: £200 (For eating out, drinking, clubbing, I'm not a massive person for clubbing so I guess that would probably be less, I'd prefer to concentrate on sporting activities and volunteering for things to do).

I'm a 22 year old marketer, so my starting wage should just be over £25k hopefully as I have a masters degree and I'm currently working as a Digital Marketing Manager in Galway. If I got £25000 a year thats £20,000 after tax.

With all my basic expenditure, that leaves me with £5,600 for clothes, games, savings and emergencies or £466

Is that enough? Am I forgetting anything?

Playboy

dmcg90 wrote: »

Rent: £800 PCM + Bills inc (I've shared all my life and I don't want to live on my own at the moment so I think thats reasonable for a reasonable double room in zone 2)

Will get you a very nice room in zone 2 or 3. Even could get you a nice zone 3 studio (without bills)

dmcg90 wrote: »

Travel: £100 per month (Only a ballpark figure for living in Zone 2)

Zone 1-3 travel card giving you unlimited travel on bus, tube and train is approx £135 pcm. Not too sure what a zone 2 travel card costs but you can check it on the tfl website

dmcg90 wrote: »

Food: £150 (Only stopped being a student 5 months ago so I know how to live on the cheap but I think thats more than enough, I spend about €100 a month here on Food)

If you shop smartly at the bigger supermarkets and keep eating out and take aways to a minimum then it should be enough. Stay away from Tesco express or sainsburys local as they are very expensive in comparison to their bigger stores. Iceland, Lidl etc are great value but not the healthiest!

dmcg90 wrote: »

Socialising: £200 (For eating out, drinking, clubbing, I'm not a massive person for clubbing so I guess that would probably be less, I'd prefer to concentrate on sporting activities and volunteering for things to do).

One night out a week at £50 is reasonable if you are not a big drinker and stay out of rounds. Just be aware that people socialise in the city a huge amount after work in the pub and it can be expensive if you join in.

dmcg90 wrote: »

I'm a 22 year old marketer, so my starting wage should just be over £25k hopefully as I have a masters degree and I'm currently working as a Digital Marketing Manager in Galway. If I got £25000 a year thats £20,000 after tax.

With all my basic expenditure, that leaves me with £5,600 for clothes, games, savings and emergencies or £466

Is that enough? Am I forgetting anything?

After tax and NI you should have £19,817.76 (iphone app!) which works out at £1,651.48 pcm. That doesnt factor in council tax though but a lot of shared properties will include that in the rent. Just make sure you clarify that before moving in as it can be expensive.

I dont think you are forgetting anything but London is an expensive city with lots of temptation on your doorstep so your social budget could up. Lots of good gigs and shows are on all the time that you would get in Galway for instance.

dmcg90

Thanks for such an exhaustive answer!

Area wise I was looking at Kennington, New Cross, Vauxhall and Clapham, I don't know area wise but a lot of my friends over there are all South London so it makes sense.

I'm in talks about a job thats £30k plus 2250 living allowance, its a fantastic opportunity and I'd be stupid to not go for it. It means I might have to move in less than a month, leaving me probably quite out of money due to my existing eMobile contract, terminating lease and more.

I mean if I spend €100 a month now on food, I can't see myself spending more than £150 over there. I didn't know about the socialising after work thing as I've always preferred to just do Saturday nights (if I go out on a work night, I won't last long!). Would love to start going to gigs, not many bands I like play in Galway

enda1

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tickets/14416.aspx
There are the transport costs summarised.
Cheapest is to cycle or walk of course.

New Cross aint that pretty but it's "up and coming".

Where would your new job be located? Try to live somewhere convenient to this as a first priority.
You may find (as many do) that you will work quite/very long hours in London. You'll probably end up eating out more than you're used to and socialising more mid-week (despite what you say).

For instance tonight I'm going to a German beer keller for a leaving do. Not something I'd normally do on a Thursday night but hey-ho, when in London (or Munich).

dmcg90

enda1 wrote: »

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tickets/14416.aspx
There are the transport costs summarised.
Cheapest is to cycle or walk of course.

New Cross aint that pretty but it's "up and coming".

Where would your new job be located? Try to live somewhere convenient to this as a first priority.
You may find (as many do) that you will work quite/very long hours in London. You'll probably end up eating out more than you're used to and socialising more mid-week (despite what you say).

For instance tonight I'm going to a German beer keller for a leaving do. Not something I'd normally do on a Thursday night but hey-ho, when in London (or Munich).

Thanks for that, the one I'm going for at the moment is in Embankment but i'd say it'll be zone one knowing my career.

old hippy

I have a love/hate relationship with the place. I've been here 14 years now, I feel like a "Londoner" in many ways. Of course, there's still things I miss back home. But up until recently, I didn't buy into the belief that people in London are cold and aloof. On the contrary, I find people in London mostly easy to get on with.

I'd never go back to live in Ireland; not that I "hate" it or anything like that, more that I feel I've grown apart from it, if that makes sense...

BraziliaNZ

I love it here, but I'm so bad with money, and it's so easy to spend money here. It's just a cash vacuum with all the great restaurants and bars and other enticing establishments trying to seduce me. Sigh.

enda1

BraziliaNZ wrote: »

I love it here, but I'm so bad with money, and it's so easy to spend money here. It's just a cash vacuum with all the great restaurants and bars and other enticing establishments trying to seduce me. Sigh.

I'd say Honest Burger and Franco Manca on your doorstep hoover up a bit of your money alright!

BraziliaNZ

enda1 wrote: »

I'd say Honest Burger and Franco Manca on your doorstep hoover up a bit of your money alright!

There are always huge queues and Brixton village attracts all kinds of organic food eating farmers market people these days!
Franco Manca isn't great anyway, I was there once, I don't get the hype.
Why do English people love queueing for stuff so much?
Haven't been to Honest yet but I don't get excited about burgers the way everyone else seems to in London.

enda1

BraziliaNZ wrote: »

There are always huge queues and Brixton village attracts all kinds of organic food eating farmers market people these days!
Franco Manca isn't great anyway, I was there once, I don't get the hype.
Why do English people love queueing for stuff so much?
Haven't been to Honest yet but I don't get excited about burgers the way everyone else seems to in London.

Yeah the queues at these places piss me off. I much prefer to have a booking and have stopped going to places like that.

Honest burger is nice, at least they cook your burger rare if you ask for it which many places wont do.

I really like Franco Manco though!

BraziliaNZ

enda1 wrote: »

Yeah the queues at these places piss me off. I much prefer to have a booking and have stopped going to places like that.

Honest burger is nice, at least they cook your burger rare if you ask for it which many places wont do.

I really like Franco Manco though!

Call me a philistine but honestly I don't think pizza gets any better than Pizza Express

old hippy

I make a mean pizza.

enda1

old hippy wrote: »

I make a mean pizza.

Likewise

monkeysnapper

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=U8Kum8OUTuk

enda1

enda1 wrote: »

If you're a single person and want to live comfortably by which I mean:
-Live in zone 1 or 2 in a 1 bed apt in a grand area (£1200)
-Eat decent food out sometimes (£150)
-Save a bit (£500)
-3 to 4 return flights a year to somewhere + some accommodations (£150)
-Money for socialising (£250)
-Transport (£100)
-Household Bills (£250)
-Phone (£50)
-Household food and stuff (£200)
These prices are per month

That adds up to £2850 which is about £50k I think per year.

Saving 'a bit' = £500 a month? £1200 on rent? That's not comfortable, that's living like a king, IMO. I guess the problem with 'comfortable' is that we all have different expectations. I was on 20K in London and was fairly comfortable. Lovely flat, nice area (not Kensington, but safe enough), ate out and went out for drinks all the time. I didn't have much 'left over' for holidays, clothes etc, but day to day living was grand. I was in Zone 4, but it was only a 30 minute commute to work, door to door, which I don't think is too bad at all. I could live very well on 30K, I think.

As for London, I love it and hate it at the same time. I'm very tired of the crowds.