Sacrificing a Hectare of SFP to plant a Short rotation Coppice ?

F.D

Would it be worth doing?
Plant a Hectare of your land with a short rotation coppice e.g willow to grow fuel for your house, or in my case mine and the parents? just talking my father last night and if we combined what we spend on turf, briquettes and oil per annum it goes into thousands which got us talking about sarcrificing a hectare to grow something like willow,
the con's are we would loose the hectare of grass, so a few cattle less per year loose the SFP which isnt much per hectare for us anyway,
Then the hardship of growing and harvesting the fuel each year (probably no worse than the bog)
Pro's, no oil bill, self sufficient, long term could even invest in come sort of combined heating system to heat both houses

Just wonder if anyone else has considered this option with the prices of fuel for heating your home going up
P.s I know very little about this just really throwing it out there

reilig

F.D wrote: »

Would it be worth doing?
Plant a Hectare of your land with a short rotation coppice e.g willow to grow fuel for your house, or in my case mine and the parents? just talking my father last night and if we combined what we spend on turf, briquettes and oil per annum it goes into thousands which got us talking about sarcrificing a hectare to grow something like willow,
the con's are we would loose the hectare of grass, so a few cattle less per year loose the SFP which isnt much per hectare for us anyway,
Then the hardship of growing and harvesting the fuel each year (probably no worse than the bog)
Pro's, no oil bill, self sufficient, long term could even invest in come sort of combined heating system to heat both houses

Just wonder if anyone else has considered this option with the prices of fuel for heating your home going up
P.s I know very little about this just really throwing it out there

I have it done. But I didn't sacrifice a hectare of grassland. I planted the cutaway bog. Have willow growing which I can start coppicing in 3 or 4 years time. Am planning on planting some Alder in the next few weeks on more bog.

Burning timber is a lifestyle. You'll get warm several times before you actually burn the stuff. Felling, debranching, sawing, stacking, splitting, carrying etc. If you have the appliance to burn timber already, I suggest that you buy a lorry load of wood for about €1200 to see how you can manage it. A load should heat 2 average size houses for 1 year.

I have a gasifying boiler and in the last 6 months I have had a lot of people come to look at it and guy who installed it has installed a lot since. Only complaint on it is from the Mrs - house is too warm!!

F.D

Thanks Rellig, We know there would be work involved but thanks for the tip on buying a lorry load of wood first, its a good idea, I am thinking log gasification myself through time unless its viable to chip whatever is harvested efficiently

Conflats

Does willow not need to be dried before it can be burnt? I remember hearing its something like 30%+ moisture when harvested?

It seems like a good idea but I think its better to have a combination of different sources

webels

&

F.D wrote: »

Thanks Rellig, We know there would be work involved but thanks for the tip on buying a lorry load of wood first, its a good idea, I am thinking log gasification myself through time unless its viable to chip whatever is harvested efficiently

Do you mean chip for the gasification boiler? They would really need log sized timber. I think sacrificing the land for a self sufficient fuel future is an excellent idea. I would be inclined to not sacrifice not so good land if I could. Willow Alder abs quite a few species that could be coppiced will grow on poor land quite well.

epfff

I have abt 20 acers of rushs that is starting to annoy me it floods a few weeks every year when local river bursts its banks.
What could i sow

ootbitb

epfff wrote: »

I have abt 20 acers of rushs that is starting to annoy me it floods a few weeks every year when local river bursts its banks.
What could i sow

Alder loves its roots in water.

pakalasa

ootbitb wrote: »

Alder loves its roots in water.

I cut a lot of Alder during the year. It's great to burn once you give it enough time to dry out. It's like a sponge. It holds a serious amount of water.

ootbitb

Conflats wrote: »

Does willow not need to be dried before it can be burnt? I remember hearing its something like 30%+ moisture when harvested?

It seems like a good idea but I think its better to have a combination of different sources

All timber needs about 12 months drying to get the most heat from it.

Burning green also clogs appliances and flues with tar and creosote.

ootbitb

pakalasa wrote: »

I cut a lot of Alder during the year. It's great to burn once you give it enough time to dry out. It's like a sponge. It holds a serious amount of water.

It grows straight too which means it's easy to trim and less waste. Nothing grows quicker on damp soil here.

pakalasa

ootbitb wrote: »

It grows straight too which means it's easy to trim and less waste. Nothing grows quicker on damp soil here.

Sorry, it was Elder (white flowers and red berries) and not Alder. The Elder destroys a ditch though. It forms a canopy very quick and kills all underneath. Not great for keeping in the cattle.

epfff

pakalasa wrote: »

I cut a lot of Alder during the year. It's great to burn once you give it enough time to dry out. It's like a sponge. It holds a serious amount of water.

How long does it take alder to grow?
Would there be any money/freps to draw on alder?

Dont be daft

reilig wrote: »

I have it done. But I didn't sacrifice a hectare of grassland. I planted the cutaway bog. Have willow growing which I can start coppicing in 3 or 4 years time. Am planning on planting some Alder in the next few weeks on more bog.

Burning timber is a lifestyle. You'll get warm several times before you actually burn the stuff. Felling, debranching, sawing, stacking, splitting, carrying etc. If you have the appliance to burn timber already, I suggest that you buy a lorry load of wood for about €1200 to see how you can manage it. A load should heat 2 average size houses for 1 year.

I have a gasifying boiler and in the last 6 months I have had a lot of people come to look at it and guy who installed it has installed a lot since. Only complaint on it is from the Mrs - house is too warm!!

Do you mind me asking Reilig how much it was for the gasification boiler?
How big is the unit itself?
Hows it fed into the actual furnace part?


Is there anyone here who grows willow on a commercial scale?

reilig

Dont be daft wrote: »

Do you mind me asking Reilig how much it was for the gasification boiler?
How big is the unit itself?
Hows it fed into the actual furnace part?


Is there anyone here who grows willow on a commercial scale?

Total install of the gasifying boiler, 1500l buffer tank and circulation pump + fittings was about 6k. Pretty much the same price of a good condenser oil boiler. I got no grant.

The boiler is about the size of a 300l wheelie bin and similar shape. The buffer tank is 1500 litres and has 6 inches of insulation. It is cylinderic in shape and has a diameter of about 3ft 6 inches and it is almost 11ft high. Apart from that there is a bit of pipeing screwed to the wall, a circulation pump and a bypass valve. There is also a 200l expansion tank which is about the size of a creamery can.

The boiler heats the buffer tank. It is lit once per day. There is a circulation pump on the tank which is linked to the thermostats in the house. When the temperature drops, it triggers the stat which opens the valve and runs the pump. Pump is also on a timer. House has 3 zones.

Boiler takes logs 50cm long and up to 20cm in diameter - so rarely need to split wood for it and can saw logs fairly long. Its installed over 3 years now and apart from a small leak from an air valve and a small leak from a pressure release valve (its normal for either to leak over time), it has been great. I have heated the house for free from wood cut off the land for the last 3 years. Have bought forestry thinnings for next year that is drying at the moment - Eur 450 will heat the house (2000 sq ft) for a full year with ease. Probably the best investment I made for the house. Took a chance on it because there wasn't much known about gasifying boilers at the time, but it worked out great.

Would like to be able to get together with some family members in the future to invest in a firewood processer shared between 4 or 5 houses as it would take the work out prepping wood.

moy83

Do you have oil as a back up reilig or is all the heat coming from the gasifyier ?

Dont be daft

reilig wrote: »

Would like to be able to get together with some family members in the future to invest in a firewood processer shared between 4 or 5 houses as it would take the work out prepping wood.

Thanks for that info Reilig.

I'm in the same mindset. I want to go down the Willow wood chip route.
The sister is trying to buy a house with the same kind of system in place exempt there's an auger feeding in chipped willow from a bunker.

Would like to put in a similar system myself, if I could find a few more people to justify planting, harvesting, drying etc.

The savings you've pointed out there are pretty big and I suppose the gap between oil and wood will only get bigger.

reilig

moy83 wrote: »

Do you have oil as a back up reilig or is all the heat coming from the gasifyier ?

All heat from the gasifyer. Have a stanley errigal range in kitchen but its not connected to the radiators.

F.D

sorry been busy the past few days, thanks for the replys the land would be a little boggy, does not flood and will grow good grass, but i still think it would be worth loosing a hectare to grow fuel for the household, i would have been more for the log gasification, but then thinking about having to cut the timber and load it then into a burner on a daily basis it might be worth looking at the chipping route if it was not too expensive, i think the only way this could be done is to harvest the rod every 2-3 years, dont know how yet, let them dry and then buy a chipper to chip after 12 months,
But i still think the log gasification will be the simplest to get started
Rellig did you find it hard to maintain the willow you planted in the first few years with weed and grass growth

reilig

F.D wrote: »

sorry been busy the past few days, thanks for the replys the land would be a little boggy, does not flood and will grow good grass, but i still think it would be worth loosing a hectare to grow fuel for the household, i would have been more for the log gasification, but then thinking about having to cut the timber and load it then into a burner on a daily basis it might be worth looking at the chipping route if it was not too expensive, i think the only way this could be done is to harvest the rod every 2-3 years, dont know how yet, let them dry and then buy a chipper to chip after 12 months,
But i still think the log gasification will be the simplest to get started
Rellig did you find it hard to maintain the willow you planted in the first few years with weed and grass growth

Willow is easy to maintain once you plant cuttings long enough. Some people have reported problems with rabbits or hares eating the leaves off them, but I have not found a problem with it.

To my mind, wood chip on a small scale would be labourous as well as costly. You would have to cut by hand, chip by hand and and store. Your store would need to be capable of drying chip, as well as storing it without letting any moisture to it. You would also need to be able to have your chip store near your boiler, and it would need to be fairly large in order to store a constant supply of dried chip.

The cost:

Well you would be faced with an expensive start up - a chip boiler + feed system could be up to 3 times the price of a similar kw gasifying boiler. The size of the chip store would make it an expensive build. You would also need to buy chipping equipment or have it available to hire when you need it. A wood chip boiler would be much more expensive to maintain as it has more wearable parts such as an auger system and a self ignition system. Finally, most domestic wood chip boilers have a hopper which feeds the boiler chamber. This hopper can be linked to your wood chip store via an auger or conveyor system (more €) or you can fill it up manually (approximately every 2 days).

I did a lot of research into wood chip systems before I built my house and concluded that it would be an awful lot of expense to process the fuel and a fair bit of work. With the gasifying boiler, there is a good bit of work, but seeing as there is little expense in processing the fuel, it was the best option for me.

If you do a bit of internet research you will find that domestic wood chip boilers are not very popular unless the household has a good supply of cheap (normally free) wood chip which doesn't need to be processed by an individual - sawmill owners, wood chip suppliers etc. tend to install them.

Wood chip boilers are far more popular for district heating schemes (ie. a large number of houses being heated by one central boiler from a boiler house) or for larger scale developments such as swimming pools and gyms, hotels, or office blocks.

Just my 2 cents worth. i was in the same trail of though as you are now and I'm glad I chose what I did in the end.

F.D

Looks like log gasification is the simplest idea alright rellig, just back to the planting, you say as long as you leave them long, you have no problems with weeds etc, i was reading a few different articles that suggested cutting them back to 1 ft above the ground to encourage multiple shoots and more vigorous growth,
Did you do this or are you just letting it grow in one pole to get a decent size log ?
Do you have any pics of how your plantation is progressing?

mf240

F.D wrote: »

sorry been busy the past few days, thanks for the replys the land would be a little boggy, does not flood and will grow good grass, but i still think it would be worth loosing a hectare to grow fuel

Just something that you might not think of. If you plant willow ect in one end of a soft field try not to end up in such a way that it shelters another few acres from the midday sun, as if its a bit boggy allready it may get wetter.

reilig

F.D wrote: »

Looks like log gasification is the simplest idea alright rellig, just back to the planting, you say as long as you leave them long, you have no problems with weeds etc, i was reading a few different articles that suggested cutting them back to 1 ft above the ground to encourage multiple shoots and more vigorous growth,
Did you do this or are you just letting it grow in one pole to get a decent size log ?
Do you have any pics of how your plantation is progressing?

I planted approx 1 meter willow cuttings in year 1 and allowed them to root. Because of their height I had no problem with weeds. At the beginning of year 2 I cut them back to about 6 inches and tramped any grass or weeds around them. They grew very well after this.

Will try to get a pic at the weekend.

reilig

mf240 wrote: »

Just something that you might not think of. If you plant willow ect in one end of a soft field try not to end up in such a way that it shelters another few acres from the midday sun, as if its a bit boggy allready it may get wetter.

Its 6 of 1 and a half dozen of the other. Willow planted in soft ground will help to drain the ground and its root structure will make the ground more traffickable. Also, willow isn't a very leafy tree, nor does it provide great shelter as it doesn't grow high. Its normally not a major factor for blocking the sun.

jinghong

Dont be daft wrote: »

Do you mind me asking Reilig how much it was for the gasification boiler?
How big is the unit itself?
Hows it fed into the actual furnace part?


Is there anyone here who grows willow on a commercial scale?

Dont use willow or anything that grows on a short rotation. Amything growing that quickly sucks up minerals from the ground and forms acids in the boiler. This will reduce its lifespan and will cost you more. Ash is (was) ideal..but now id be looking at a medium rotation coppice..sweet chestnut maybe with something else. Separately amything SRC will deplete fertility in the ground since it sucks up minerals. Eucalyptus is another nasty example...but mischantus is the worst.
No such thing as a free lunch in the natural world i'm afraid

Aside; most log boilers are designed on the continent..and for softwoods..you can pick up roundwood thinnings so cheaply in many places to do you till your mrc comes on stream..it makes sense.

Aside 2: add another layer of insulation in the attic..install electronic timed rad valves and fit thermal window blinds. This will slash your wood use. I will use less then 500kg this year..iltjough it has been somewhat tropical lately

Disclosure; i used to sell austrian log gasification boilers..not anymore. In principle it is the way to go...3000l min buffer needed tho

Dont be daft

jinghong wrote: »

Dont use willow or anything that grows on a short rotation. Amything growing that quickly sucks up minerals from the ground and forms acids in the boiler. This will reduce its lifespan and will cost you more. Ash is (was) ideal..but now id be looking at a medium rotation coppice..sweet chestnut maybe with something else. Separately amything SRC will deplete fertility in the ground since it sucks up minerals. Eucalyptus is another nasty example...but mischantus is the worst.
No such thing as a free lunch in the natural world i'm afraid

Aside; most log boilers are designed on the continent..and for softwoods..you can pick up roundwood thinnings so cheaply in many places to do you till your mrc comes on stream..it makes sense.

Aside 2: add another layer of insulation in the attic..install electronic timed rad valves and fit thermal window blinds. This will slash your wood use. I will use less then 500kg this year..iltjough it has been somewhat tropical lately

Disclosure; i used to sell austrian log gasification boilers..not anymore. In principle it is the way to go...3000l min buffer needed tho

Thats a good point about the free lunch alright.
Heard horror stories about the build up of acid in boilers, but not much detail divulged so thanks for that.

I know of a few big commercial boilers that are going strong but I suppose their economy of scale would let you put in a self cleaning system or manually clean it. I'm I right about that?

F.D

jinghong wrote: »

Dont use willow or anything that grows on a short rotation. Amything growing that quickly sucks up minerals from the ground and forms acids in the boiler. This will reduce its lifespan and will cost you more. Ash is (was) ideal..but now id be looking at a medium rotation coppice..sweet chestnut maybe with something else. Separately amything SRC will deplete fertility in the ground since it sucks up minerals. Eucalyptus is another nasty example...but mischantus is the worst.
No such thing as a free lunch in the natural world i'm afraid

Aside; most log boilers are designed on the continent..and for softwoods..you can pick up roundwood thinnings so cheaply in many places to do you till your mrc comes on stream..it makes sense.

Aside 2: add another layer of insulation in the attic..install electronic timed rad valves and fit thermal window blinds. This will slash your wood use. I will use less then 500kg this year..iltjough it has been somewhat tropical lately

Disclosure; i used to sell austrian log gasification boilers..not anymore. In principle it is the way to go...3000l min buffer needed tho

With your point on ground fertility, been a farmer this is something that could be managed with soil tests etc and fertilized either artifically or with farm yard manure if required like any other crop, to grow something like ash you would be waiting too long for fuel to be available, that is why i suggested SRC
I did not know that about acid in the boiler, thanks for mentioning it
from your previous experience of selling the boilers Can you give a rough idea of how much a typical boiler and buffer tank installed would cost

finally what is the advantages of going for the 3000 ltr tank over say 1500ltr
Thanks for your post.

jinghong

Acids will attack any boiler regardless of size and cleaning mechanisms will not help. Talk to MnaM about replacing grates on their boilers burning mischantus, they would be some of the largest solid fuel burners in the country.

Presumably most of you have plenty of space if you are considering growing your own wood. Right now you can get forestry thinnings for a good price, if you buy in a full lorry load, in roundlog, and let it season yourself as well as cutting it into half metre lengths as required. If you got in 20 tons this should last a good few years, and should not cost much at all. You can store it outside and let the wind dry it.

For anyone installing a log boiler, I would recommend infividual rad valves
http://recombu.com/digital/news/lightwaverf-home-automation_M11004.html
they are cheap and will massively reduce the wood you burn. They are a perfect mate for systems with buffer tanks, as they call on the heat as required. Sometimes you only need to heat a room or two.

Regarding buffer size, there is a formula for sizing it, and the biggest factor is the return temperature. IF you had low temperature rads or underfloor heating, the delta T is twice as high so your buffer requirement is half, but if you want fast response times (which allows for less fuel use) you need to have the firepower on demand, and a 3000L buffer (or 2 x 1500L) would be good for a standard 35kW log boiler. This way you can accept all the heat a full firebox can throw at you, and store it till its needed.

I know one guy who put in 18000L!, he wanted to be able to fire up a few times a day, and have heat for the week. Most people wont go to that extreme, but the more the merrier.

On cost, a good austrian system would br 15k incl buffer, but you can get systems for much less than that
http://kotly.com/index.php/cPath/169_207
I can't vouch for the above boilers. I guess you get what you pay for..

td5man

What make of buffer tank would you recommend?
i'm using a passat 50kw boiler.
Was thinking of fitting a 1500l buffer tank but as you say the bigger the better.
what does a laddomat do?

reilig

jinghong wrote: »

Dont use willow or anything that grows on a short rotation. Amything growing that quickly sucks up minerals from the ground and forms acids in the boiler. This will reduce its lifespan and will cost you more.

Hi,

Do you have any links to documentation that details acid problems with Short Rotation Coppice?

jinghong

reilig wrote: »

Hi,

Do you have any links to documentation that details acid problems with Short Rotation Coppice?

http://nuke.biomasstradecentres.eu/Portals/0/D2.1.1%20-%20WOOD%20FUELS%20HANDBOOK_BTC_EN.pdf
p20 and 21
N, K, S, and Cl are all problems for different reasons, and are present in different quantities in various fuels. Cl is the worst one for corossion, and is not so bad for willow. However it does contain higher levels of the other minerals, which deplete fertility, cause clinker, and form some acids. Willow is by no means a disaster like mischantus, but I wouldn't call it an ideal wood fuel, especially since there is so much thinnings available, which gasification boilers love, but the average consumer doesnt like, due to the misplaced opinion that softwood is lower in calorific value

jinghong

td5man wrote: »

What make of buffer tank would you recommend?
i'm using a passat 50kw boiler.
Was thinking of fitting a 1500l buffer tank but as you say the bigger the better.
what does a laddomat do?

The laddomat is for back end protection, and also optimises heat storage in the water tank
If you dont have back end protection, you risk causing condensation in the boiler, due to cooler return water, which will cause it to corrode

Another way to achieve this is to put a low temperature switch on the return line, which turns on and off the boiler pump.

But the laddomat would be better. Some of the better boilers have it integrated so you dont have to buy it separately.

3000L would be better for a 50kW boiler if you are operating it with conventional radiators

EAFC_rdfl

is there any particular time of year to go about setting such a crop? I'd imagine the next couple of months would be the norm?

Kel01

Hi all,
I'm hoping someone can help here. I've a new eko40 with 2000l buffer installed. However, being half way through heating season(mild as it has been), I'm on target to spend as much on wood as I would have on Oil. Defeating the whole purpose. This is using sparingly also.
House is adequately insulated(C rating in BER terms) heating 2000ft2. 3 loads of softwood a day is about average use which translates to about .25 of those anoying "ton" bags where that measure is so abusively used during wood sale. Is there any true m3 sellers? Rant over.

"...you can pick up roundwood thinnings so cheaply in many places..."

How can I make this thing pay for it self having to find bulk loads of wood. Also, is there any benifit in buying hardwood over softwood?

Any help would be greatly appreciated, as I'm going to have to call for an oil delivery this week in the absence of a good supply.

moy83

Kel01 wrote: »

Hi all,
I'm hoping someone can help here. I've a new eko40 with 2000l buffer installed. However, being half way through heating season(mild as it has been), I'm on target to spend as much on wood as I would have on Oil. Defeating the whole purpose. This is using sparingly also.
House is adequately insulated(C rating in BER terms) heating 2000ft2. 3 loads of softwood a day is about average use which translates to about .25 of those anoying "ton" bags where that measure is so abusively used during wood sale. Is there any true m3 sellers? Rant over.

"...you can pick up roundwood thinnings so cheaply in many places..."

How can I make this thing pay for it self having to find bulk loads of wood. Also, is there any benifit in buying hardwood over softwood?

Any help would be greatly appreciated, as I'm going to have to call for an oil delivery this week in the absence of a good supply.

Are you sawing and splitting the wood yourself or buying it ready to burn in the bags ?
Is the timber dry enough ? I would say if you are burning a quarter of one of them bags a day and not getting roasted with heat something is not right .
I have a range heating my house which is fairly big and not overly insulated and one of them bags of well seasoned timber would last just under two weeks .

reilig

2000 sq ft house here, built in 2008/2009. A wheelbarrow of softwood per day would more than generously heat my house per 24 hour period. With the willow, its a bit less and with ash a wheelbarrow full would do 2 days!

Are you buying wood and sawing and splitting yourself? How much are you paying for wood?

Kel01 wrote: »

Hi all,
I'm hoping someone can help here. I've a new eko40 with 2000l buffer installed. However, being half way through heating season(mild as it has been), I'm on target to spend as much on wood as I would have on Oil. Defeating the whole purpose. This is using sparingly also.
House is adequately insulated(C rating in BER terms) heating 2000ft2. 3 loads of softwood a day is about average use which translates to about .25 of those anoying "ton" bags where that measure is so abusively used during wood sale. Is there any true m3 sellers? Rant over.

"...you can pick up roundwood thinnings so cheaply in many places..."

How can I make this thing pay for it self having to find bulk loads of wood. Also, is there any benifit in buying hardwood over softwood?

Any help would be greatly appreciated, as I'm going to have to call for an oil delivery this week in the absence of a good supply.

archtech

Kel01 wrote: »

House is adequately insulated(C rating in BER terms) heating 2000ft2

A house with a BER C rating may not fall into the category of been adequately insulated. did you get your rating before or after your heating installation. When was the house build. Your problem could be down to draughty construction.

Kel01

The house was built in1998. I'd need walls pumped and possibly add more attic insulation. The BER was done before installation of boiler. The wood not the best but would I see such an improvemet of halving the amount by using drier stuff. The eko40 has a large box so it takes a lot to fill it. Several fills eats a lot into supply. With the wood I have it takes a while to get up to temp(78degrees) but the laddomat I have has a 72 degrees cartridge so flow through should be maximum. Gassification seems good at this stage. I don't believe air is an issue in the system.

I'm buying the wood from local suppliers split by the trailer at the moment. Wouldn't mind processing the wood myself if i could get thinnings or the likes.

Are rounds or splits better in gasification burners or does it matter?

Can I actually reduce the consumption by such an amount with drier wood?

moy83

Kel01 wrote: »

The house was built in1998. I'd need walls pumped and possibly add more attic insulation. The BER was done before installation of boiler. The wood not the best but would I see such an improvemet of halving the amount by using drier stuff. The eko40 has a large box so it takes a lot to fill it. Several fills eats a lot into supply. With the wood I have it takes a while to get up to temp(78degrees) but the laddomat I have has a 72 degrees cartridge so flow through should be maximum. Gassification seems good at this stage. I don't believe air is an issue in the system.

I'm buying the wood from local suppliers split by the trailer at the moment. Wouldn't mind processing the wood myself if i could get thinnings or the likes.

Are rounds or splits better in gasification burners or does it matter?

Can I actually reduce the consumption by such an amount with drier wood?

I'd start with the insulation , rolling out another layer of insulation in the attic is a good start and wont break the bank .
I doubt rounds or splits would make a difference in the burner , but split timber will dry out much quicker than being left in the round .
You should notice a hugh difference in properly seasoned timber , in the range here anyhow wet timber and seasoned timber burn pretty much the same but with the dry stuff you could let it out a couple of hours earlier because the house and water would be roasting

Kel01

moy83 wrote: »

I'd start with the insulation , rolling out another layer of insulation in the attic is a good start and wont break the bank .
I doubt rounds or splits would make a difference in the burner , but split timber will dry out much quicker than being left in the round .
You should notice a hugh difference in properly seasoned timber , in the range here anyhow wet timber and seasoned timber burn pretty much the same but with the dry stuff you could let it out a couple of hours earlier because the house and water would be roasting

Thanks for your time and this info. Sounds like perhaps 1/3 of the wood consumption could be saved by drier wood. Do you think hardwood is worth the extra cost longterm?

reilig

Kel01 wrote: »

Thanks for your time and this info. Sounds like perhaps 1/3 of the wood consumption could be saved by drier wood. Do you think hardwood is worth the extra cost longterm?

Hardwood firewood is scarce and overpriced. I would recommend it for a stove or range. However, your gasifyer is designed to control the air flow to the burn and ultimately control the burn speed and temperature. This makes it ideal for softwood. Stoves and ranges don't control air flow as good and softwood tends to burn hot and fast in them. So in your case, for your gasifier, i would say that hardwood would cost you more to heat your house.

You need to order dry wood - it has to be under 25% moisture. You need to say this to your supplier. You also need to get a wood moisture meter and measure your wood - can be got on amazon for ~ €20. By burning wood which isn't fully seasoned, much of the heat from the wood that you burn is used to dry out the rest of the wood in the boiler chamber when it should be used to heat your house.

jinghong

reilig wrote: »

Hardwood firewood is scarce and overpriced. I would recommend it for a stove or range. However, your gasifyer is designed to control the air flow to the burn and ultimately control the burn speed and temperature. This makes it ideal for softwood. Stoves and ranges don't control air flow as good and softwood tends to burn hot and fast in them. So in your case, for your gasifier, i would say that hardwood would cost you more to heat your house.

You need to order dry wood - it has to be under 25% moisture. You need to say this to your supplier. You also need to get a wood moisture meter and measure your wood - can be got on amazon for ~ €20. By burning wood which isn't fully seasoned, much of the heat from the wood that you burn is used to dry out the rest of the wood in the boiler chamber when it should be used to heat your house.

To second Relig, you need to find out the moisture content. Softwood will give nearly as much heat as hardwood, but it needs 2 summers to dry.

However coming from the wood supply business, most of us dont trust the handheld moisture meters.
An easier (for you) way of doing it is to get a hatchet and cut off a hundred grams of wood slivers
IF you have a kitchen scale, weigh it, then put it in the microwave and heat it. As soon as you begin to smell burning, take it out and weigh it again.

The accurate moisture content can be calculated as: ((Initial weight-oven dry weight)/oven dry weight)x100%

This will be far more accurate than a moisture meter.

If you can do that and report back here with the answer. We can then figure out if you are being raped

Wood will be every bit as expensive as oil if not dry enough.
However, only people who have stoves should buy hard wood in ton bags, or split, delivered by trailer.

You do not need hard wood, softwood is much more plentiful and hence cheaper. Also you do not need to have it split (which adds labour) if its first thinnings.
Additionally you do not need as much cutting, as presumably you can take 50cm logs?

You do however need to source a supply which suits your requirements. The supplier you currently use is geared for domestic wood stoves, not gasification boilers

Kel01

Once again I appreciate all the replies, many thanks.

I've just tried the microwave mc test with an old analog scales so there is a good margin of error. A bit afraid when the wood started cracking but got the following results:

((112.5-75)/75)*100=50

I couldn't believe it and I'm sure I could have boiled off more but my best half said we couldn't afford another microwave.

Could this be the answer to my problems? How much could I hope to see savings on wood consumption with decent dry wood? Is it possible to get such a thing without being ripped off?

F.D

Kel01 wrote: »

Once again I appreciate all the replies, many thanks.

I've just tried the microwave mc test with an old analog scales so there is a good margin of error. A bit afraid when the wood started cracking but got the following results:

((112.5-75)/75)*100=50

I couldn't believe it and I'm sure I could have boiled off more but my best half said we couldn't afford another microwave.

Could this be the answer to my problems? How much could I hope to see savings on wood consumption with decent dry wood? Is it possible to get such a thing without being ripped off?

Sounds like the only way you are going to get good dry timber is to store it for a year or two yourself before burning

kippy

F.D wrote: »

Sounds like the only way you are going to get good dry timber is to store it for a year or two yourself before burning

Two years would be standard for most wood - wouldnt it?

ford2600

Right conditions more important than time.
Cut and split(bark seals in moisture) with good ventilation and top covered 12 would be plenty.
Have about 3-4 supply of wood(after thinning and a lot of clearing). Some stuff in shed 3 years plus could be drier.
Other wood in very open exposed shed perfect after 12 months

kippy wrote: »

Two years would be standard for most wood - wouldnt it?

Kel01

Just returning to post my consumption with a clean, dry softwood source(~20-25%). I've got circa 4m3 12 days ago. There are about 5 days max left.
That's 17 days total. Cost 250 euro. Running approx 6hrs a day.

250/17 = 14.71 euro a day.

Estimate cost if I was using Oil.
Roughly 2.5 euro per hour (could be less).
6hours x 2.5 = 15 euro a day.

Savings per month(31 days) 465 - 456 = 9 euro. (~1.9% saving on cost of Oil)

Conclusion => I take the point I need to insulate more. However, more insulation means less oil would also be used, the above figures would remain in relative terms. It appears the the firewood market has adjusted itself to make domestic sourcing of fuel for a gasifier a nonsense.

I remain to be convinced, but for now I believe have learned a v. expensive lesson - Beware.

reilig

Kel01 wrote: »

Just returning to post my consumption with a clean, dry softwood source(~20-25%). I've got circa 4m3 12 days ago. There are about 5 days max left.
That's 17 days total. Cost 250 euro. Running approx 6hrs a day.

250/17 = 14.71 euro a day.

Estimate cost if I was using Oil.
Roughly 2.5 euro per hour (could be less).
6hours x 2.5 = 15 euro a day.

Savings per month(31 days) 465 - 456 = 9 euro. (~1.9% saving on cost of Oil)

Conclusion => I take the point I need to insulate more. However, more insulation means less oil would also be used, the above figures would remain in relative terms. It appears the the firewood market has adjusted itself to make domestic sourcing of fuel for a gasifier a nonsense.

I remain to be convinced, but for now I believe have learned a v. expensive lesson - Beware.

I can tell you straight up that there is a problem. That's a savage amount of wood. I have used mainly softwood in my boiler since christmas and I have used approximately 3.5m3 in the 6 weeks since then. Also bear in mind that we had a few extra cold weeks which used more wood.

You need to find out why your boiler is using so much wood? My boiler will run on an 80 litre drum of softwood for 6 hours - this drum will fill it once and then top it up again when its 3/4 gone. That's means I'm using just over 0.5m3 per week.

Did you check the moisture of the wood?

The firewood market is firmly established to provide wood for stoves and open fires - small amounts which are priced for convenience. The problem is, you're a bulk buyer, sourcing 100% of your heating needs from these overpriced suppliers. You need to find a cheaper way to source your wood. €450 of softwood will heat my house for the next 12 months,.

Kel01

Thanks Reilig.

I'm a bit lost to be honest at this stage. Just wondering though, could the amount of wood you use be testament to how well your house is insulated. For example, have you any idea how much oil would cost to heat the same.

Other than this, could the 40kw boiler be the issue? Research would suggest that having a large enough buffer should make a larger boiler economical.
There are a lot of tweeking hints provided on hearth.com which I've exhausted at this stage regarding primary and secondary air settings. I'm actually getting great gasification. The eko has a handle to move the turbulators to clear heat exchange so I haven't opened this part up to clean any further than what the handle provides. Clutching at straws at this stage I guess. The misses is not to pleased with our investment too add fuel to the fire so to speak (-:

reilig

I've never had oil so can't say.

Insulation could be part of the difference all right. Mine is a 2009 house with fairly good insulation. You said that you're running your boiler for 6 hours per day. How long are you running the radiators for? Mine run for about 3 to 4 hours per day and at a low heat. Some people prefer to run their rads hot, but I find it makes the house uncomfortable.

You're being screwed on fuel also. You need to find a way to get cheaper wood - be it to buy lorry loads of logs and process yourself or find a cheaper supplier.

Kel01 wrote: »

Thanks Reilig.

I'm a bit lost to be honest at this stage. Just wondering though, could the amount of wood you use be testament to how well your house is insulated. For example, have you any idea how much oil would cost to heat the same.

Other than this, could the 40kw boiler be the issue? Research would suggest that having a large enough buffer should make a larger boiler economical.
There are a lot of tweeking hints provided on hearth.com which I've exhausted at this stage regarding primary and secondary air settings. I'm actually getting great gasification. The eko has a handle to move the turbulators to clear heat exchange so I haven't opened this part up to clean any further than what the handle provides. Clutching at straws at this stage I guess. The misses is not to pleased with our investment too add fuel to the fire so to speak (-:

Kel01

Thanks again for your reply Reilig.

I think the problem and answer lies in your reply.

The problem: My insulation. I'm running rads flat out for 6 hours. I really need to tackle that attic.

The answer: To heat a house on low heat for 3/4 hours would cost ~30 euro with pellets. 0.5m3 wood would fetch ~45/50 euro on sale. Oil would be round the same price as the cost of the wood ~55euro mark (at 2euro/ltr). These figures are similar, as I would have expected in relative terms, to my poorly insulated situation.

To sell any wood rather than burn it for the market value and put that money into burning pellets would be much more cost and time effective and perhaps making a little profit. Putting the money into oil at current prices would not make any financial profit and perhaps no loss either but no minding boilers and the like.

Pellets and Oil prices will rise. Will wood follow? probably given the trend over the last number of years and the selling of harvesting rights etc.

Hate to be the bearer of bad news but I can't make a case for gasifiers in the current environment from a time or financial point of view. SEAI were selling pups to us a couple of years back and were they expensive?

reilig

I can't argue with you there. The figures speak for themselves. For me, the gasifier saves me a fortune. My brother in law has a similar sized house built at the same time (similar standard of insulation) and he spends Eur3k plus per year on oil. A gasifier is great if you have a lot of your own wood or if you live near forestry where you can buy wood cheap. If you have to buy all of your wood, processed and delivered, then the price is going to be high and you aren't going to make a huge saving (as you have proved). It is also subject to price fluctuations along side oil because oil is required to harvest, process and deliver your wood!

In a few years I will be self sufficient with wood and will have a constant supply on an annual basis which will only cost me my time, petrol for the saw and a small bit of agricultural diesel for the tractor for transport or processing.

Kel01 wrote: »

Thanks again for your reply Reilig.

I think the problem and answer lies in your reply.

The problem: My insulation. I'm running rads flat out for 6 hours. I really need to tackle that attic.

The answer: To heat a house on low heat for 3/4 hours would cost ~30 euro with pellets. 0.5m3 wood would fetch ~45/50 euro on sale. Oil would be round the same price as the cost of the wood ~55euro mark (at 2euro/ltr). These figures are similar, as I would have expected in relative terms, to my poorly insulated situation.

To sell any wood rather than burn it for the market value and put that money into burning pellets would be much more cost and time effective and perhaps making a little profit. Putting the money into oil at current prices would not make any financial profit and perhaps no loss either but no minding boilers and the like.

Pellets and Oil prices will rise. Will wood follow? probably given the trend over the last number of years and the selling of harvesting rights etc.

Hate to be the bearer of bad news but I can't make a case for gasifiers in the current environment from a time or financial point of view. SEAI were selling pups to us a couple of years back and were they expensive?