Service Charge - Included but i don't agree

mfceiling

What's the story with this?

Went to meet friends for a coffee in Avoca in dublin today. Paid the bill then looked at the receipt later and noticed that a 10% service charge had been included.....however...i didn't agree to this.

There's no such thing as opt in for this charge. Opt out is fine but who gives permission for me to pay this 10%....

Didn't see any signs anywhere advising of this. Didn't receive a menu as we just ordered 4 coffees straight from the waiter.

What's the story with included service charges?

Stheno

They are perfectly within their rights to include them

j8wk2feszrnpao

Stheno wrote: »

They are perfectly within their rights to include them

Are they meant to have it included on the menu or stated somewhere?
Would seem strange if they didn't.

Stheno

munstermagic11 wrote: »

Are they meant to have it included on the menu or stated somewhere?
Would seem strange if they didn't.

Yeah normally it's in very small print on the menu

OP didn't get a menu though

j8wk2feszrnpao

Stheno wrote: »

Yeah normally it's in very small print on the menu

OP didn't get a menu though

Wonder if the waiter is meant to inform you then.

Skid

mfceiling wrote: »

There's no such thing as opt in for this charge. Opt out is fine but who gives permission for me to pay this 10%....

If you didn't ask to see a menu, you can't have been too concerned about the price.

Always check the bill to see if a Service Charge has been added.

Doom

Ring them up, tell them it's crappy to look for a service charge for two coffees and tell them their business is DOOMED because you posted it here.....:pac:

aN.Droid

Skid wrote: »

If you didn't ask to see a menu, you can't have been too concerned about the price.

Always check the bill to see if a Service Charge has been added.

Or there is some other form of price list? Such as a board outside the store or above the bar?

Sam Kade

Doom wrote: »

Ring them up, tell them it's crappy to look for a service charge for two coffees and tell them their business is DOOMED because you posted it here.....:pac:

Doom where is your other half?

mfceiling

Just find it crappy that they are adding a charge for something that might be sh*t and where you won't get the chance to decide to pay a charge yourself.

Wonder what the legal standing is on included service charges? Surely service must be included and it's your decision to pay extra for "good service".

j8wk2feszrnpao

mfceiling wrote: »

Just find it crappy that they are adding a charge for something that might be sh*t and where you won't get the chance to decide to pay a charge yourself.

Wonder what the legal standing is on included service charges? Surely service must be included and it's your decision to pay extra for "good service".

I guess they can say it's a 'service' charge, and not a 'good/bad service' charge.

Just avoid them in the future I suppose.

Menas

Agreed that it is very crappy. I have never seen a service charge applied for a couple of coffees.
I will not be going there again - thanks for the warning op!

Nanazolie

I guess they make it transparent rather than charging you say 3€ for the coffee, they break it down to show the service charge. The owner will pay their staff out of the money they get from that coffee anyway.
Would you have left a tip? If so, it would be likely to be 10% of the coffee price

Menas

Nanazolie wrote: »

I guess they make it transparent rather than charging you say 3€ for the coffee, they break it down to show the service charge. The owner will pay their staff out of the money they get from that coffee anyway.
Would you have left a tip? If so, it would be likely to be 10% of the coffee price

Agreed, but the difference is that with a tip you have a choice. With a service charge you dont.
I have no problem paying a service charge in a restaruant when there is a party of 6 or more. But paying it for a couple of coffees....nah - I dont like that.

I accept that in some places the cost of a takeaway coffee is lower than a sit in coffee...but still!

P. Breathnach

mfceiling wrote: »

...
Didn't see any signs anywhere advising of this. Didn't receive a menu as we just ordered 4 coffees straight from the waiter...

So when you ordered the coffees, you had no idea of how much they might cost? And when asked to pay for them, you regard the way the bill is made up as an issue?

If the coffees were charged as €2.20 each, that would have been okay, but if they were charged at €2.00 each + 10% SC, that's a problem?

Next time, look at the menu before you order.

Nanazolie

Trigger Happy wrote: »

Agreed, but the difference is that with a tip you have a choice. With a service charge you dont.
I have no problem paying a service charge in a restaruant when there is a party of 6 or more. But paying it for a couple of coffees....nah - I dont like that.

I accept that in some places the cost of a takeaway coffee is lower than a sit in coffee...but still!

It depends of the price of course (Avoca tends to be way overpriced for coffee), but I have no issue with the bill stating clearly "3€ including 10% service charge". Because in most places, they charge you 3€ anyway and that includes service but it is not clear. Of course, the manager / owner will use these 30 cents or so to pay PRSI charges, staff, etc. Even take away coffee will include some service charge

SweetCaliber

Wait, all this rant over a 60c service charge? :O jaysus...

ahnowbrowncow

SweetCaliber wrote: »

Wait, all this rant over a 60c service charge? :O jaysus...

IT'S NOT THE COST, IT'S THE PRINCIPAL. :pac:

Procrastastudy

It might even be the principle - useless that pun has gone right over my head which is a distinct possibility.

Vote with your feet. I've yet to find a single place in Ireland that sells a decent coffee let alone Avoca which just seems like a place middle-aged, middle-class dull women go. :pac:

rubadub

P. Breathnach wrote: »

If the coffees were charged as €2.20 each, that would have been okay, but if they were charged at €2.00 each + 10% SC, that's a problem?

+1, if they broke it down further he might have moaned more. The ground coffee itself is only about 10cent, they could tag on load of other charges, like ryan air used to
"light & heat" -wasn't bright enough, room was only 19C, no paying
"hot water" -could have been hotter, not paying
"furnishings & fittings", -chair was wonky, willing to pay half.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/consumer_affairs/consumer_protection/pricing/price_display_of_goods_and_services.html

Price display for Food in Restaurants, Cafés and Hotels

If you visit a restaurant you can reasonably expect to be informed about their prices for food. The Retail Prices (Food in Catering Establishments) Display Order, 1984 requires the owners to display a comprehensive price list of food items. This law applies to all hotels, pubs, restaurants, cafés, etc. that offer food for sale and consumption on the premises. This notice should be visible immediately outside or inside where the food is being served. In the case of a hotel or a licensed premises where food is served in some areas, the notice can be displayed either at the entrance to the premises or at the entrance to the catering area. Any extra charges that apply (such as service charges etc) must be stated clearly on the notice too.

ct5amr2ig1nfhp

Charging a service charge on four coffees is just ridiculous. Although it most likely stated the charge on the menu or by the till.

Reminds me of a restaurant I was in a few ago in Dublin. There was a service charge for two or more people. :mad:

rubadub

BearNecessities wrote: »

Charging a service charge on four coffees is just ridiculous.

Why is this? When do you think its acceptable to kick in? 40 coffees?

I think service charges in general are ridiculous by the way, just tell me what I have to pay. But if there is going to be one I see no reason it should be applied to only higher value items, esp. as its a percentage. If something is low price like the coffee then the service charge is low.

If anything the service charge should be more on lower volume items, e.g. it probably costs more per cup to make and serve 4 coffees than 40. So you should be paying the opposite of a bulk discount, a low volume surcharge.

UDP

Op, it's not a tip. It is a charge for the service you got. If you have a problem with the service you got then you should take it up with management.

j8wk2feszrnpao

This probably hits the staff most of all.
No guarantee that the services charge goes into their pocket, more of a chance that they can keep the tip.

Colonel Sanders

rubadub wrote: »

When do you think its acceptable to kick in?

I personally don't think it's EVER acceptable to add a service charge tbh. Although if it is clearly advertised I then have the option to stay an accept the charge or go elsewhere

If a customer wants to tip, leave them off. I only tip for really good service. I never automatically tip. Eating out is bloody expensive, no way will I add 10% just because everyone else does

scudzilla

Went to that Greek Restaurant in Malahide 5yrs ago, used to go a lot, there was 4 of us, a Tuesday night and the place was dead, got the bill and paid, realised after there was a 15% service charge for tables of 4 or more.

Never set foot in the place since, would have left a tip (normally do 10%) but hate having it forced, and also, for table of 4 or more, they'r making more money by having 4 people

UDP

Colonel Sanders wrote: »

If a customer wants to tip, leave them off.

but it's not a tip. It's an unavoidable charge for service.

fasttalkerchat

SweetCaliber wrote: »

Wait, all this rant over a 60c service charge? :O jaysus...

I see the point. If someone serves a poorly made coffee on a dirty table I will pay the bare minimum. If I get particularly good service I have on occasion paid double the cost.

Procrastastudy

Tips and service charges are very different things. Service charges can, IIRC be used to pay the minimum wage - e.g the staff get paid the service charge as art of their basic.

P. Breathnach

I have often asked in restaurants what happens to the service charge (and I'm no so naive as to ask the proprietor, who might want to mislead me). In almost every case, I have got the same response: it is put into a pot, and divvied-up among the staff as an addition to their pay.

Very occasionally I have detected signs of discontent about how fair the division is, but that's another question.

Melendez

This post has been deleted.

Procrastastudy

Melendez wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

This is exactly the confusion I am referring too. A service charge is not a tip, a tip is not a service charge. The 10% thingy that gets added to parties of six or more malarkey might or might not end up going to the staff as extra.

P. Breathnach

Melendez wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Not true. They are taxable.

Whether they are fully declared or not is open to question.

Melendez

This post has been deleted.

P. Breathnach

Melendez wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

No disagreement there.

Pkiernan

Stheno wrote: »

They are perfectly within their rights to include them

How did you come up with this piece of misinformation?

ct5amr2ig1nfhp

I should state that I don't agree with any service charge.

However I worked in the service industry a number of years ago and with large parties coming in, they would always take that little bit more effort from serving staff. Especially after a few bottles of wine had been consumed.
In my opinion if a service charge is to be added to a bill, it should always be optional.

Otherwise, just include the "serving" in the price of the food/drink.

rubadub wrote: »

Why is this? When do you think its acceptable to kick in? 40 coffees?

I think service charges in general are ridiculous by the way, just tell me what I have to pay. But if there is going to be one I see no reason it should be applied to only higher value items, esp. as its a percentage. If something is low price like the coffee then the service charge is low.

If anything the service charge should be more on lower volume items, e.g. it probably costs more per cup to make and serve 4 coffees than 40. So you should be paying the opposite of a bulk discount, a low volume surcharge.

mfceiling

P. Breathnach wrote: »

So when you ordered the coffees, you had no idea of how much they might cost? And when asked to pay for them, you regard the way the bill is made up as an issue?

If the coffees were charged as €2.20 each, that would have been okay, but if they were charged at €2.00 each + 10% SC, that's a problem?

Next time, look at the menu before you order.

For 4 quick coffees...would you ever f**k off.:rolleyes:

Was the closest place for us all to meet...went upstairs and met the waiter at the top of the stairs - one of us just asked him "could we get 4 coffees please?

Place was busy - was hardly going to sit down and wait 5 or 10 mins for the waiter to come over with 4 menus, so we could read through them when all we were having was a coffee each.

rubadub

mfceiling wrote: »

What's the story with included service charges?

mfceiling wrote: »

For 4 quick coffees...would you ever f**k off.:rolleyes:

So you've now been told the story about service charges. In future are you going to ask if there is one? you don't need a menu -you can ask the server. I would also recommend asking the price too since at first you seem concerned, but reading your last post you might not be

dudara

mfceiling wrote: »

...would you ever f**k off.:rolleyes:

Watch your language and please remain civil to other posters

dudara

UDP

mfceiling wrote: »

For 4 quick coffees...would you ever f**k off.:rolleyes:

Was the closest place for us all to meet...went upstairs and met the waiter at the top of the stairs - one of us just asked him "could we get 4 coffees please?

Place was busy - was hardly going to sit down and wait 5 or 10 mins for the waiter to come over with 4 menus, so we could read through them when all we were having was a coffee each.

You seem like a very civil person.

You could have checked their price lists on their website before you went. There you would have seen not only the price of each of their coffee drinks but also "Plus 10% service received entirely by staff".

You don't really have a case here since the prices and note about 10% service charge appears to be on their menus.

You also do not know the difference between a service charge and a tip.

Morph the Cat

Doom wrote: »

Ring them up, tell them it's crappy to look for a service charge for two coffees and tell them their business is DOOMED because you posted it here.....:pac:

Trigger Happy wrote: »

Agreed that it is very crappy. I have never seen a service charge applied for a couple of coffees.
I will not be going there again - thanks for the warning op!

Trigger Happy wrote: »

Agreed, but the difference is that with a tip you have a choice. With a service charge you dont.
I have no problem paying a service charge in a restaruant when there is a party of 6 or more. But paying it for a couple of coffees....nah - I dont like that.

It was 4 coffees. If you're not even going to read the original post properly, then you should probably avoid replying.

I don't work for Avoca - but I have been there a good few times. OP - Avoca have a huge chalk board over the serving counters with their price list & menu on it - at the bottom of this, it states that a 10% service charge applies to tables or 4 or more. So not sure what the issue is. It's there for all to see. And they don't have menus - just this chalkboard price list. So the fact is, you never looked at the price of the coffees, because the 10% service charge info is there for all to see.

P. Breathnach wrote: »

I have often asked in restaurants what happens to the service charge (and I'm no so naive as to ask the proprietor, who might want to mislead me).

Woah! Look out! Nothing gets past this guy!

j8wk2feszrnpao

Morph the Cat wrote: »

It was 4 coffees. If you're not even going to read the original post properly, then you should probably avoid replying.

I don't work for Avoca - but I have been there a good few times. OP - Avoca have a huge chalk board over the serving counters with their price list & menu on it - at the bottom of this, it states that a 10% service charge applies to tables or 4 or more. So not sure what the issue is. It's there for all to see. And they don't have menus - just this chalkboard price list.

Thanks for the update Morph.

So Avoca doesn't have menu's, just a large chalkboard with the service charge mentioned for tables of 4 or more.

Personally I think it's a bit much to have a service charge for 4 coffee's, but I guess that's the way they run the place.

Morph the Cat

Estella Cool Tracer wrote: »

Thanks for the update Morph.

So Avoca doesn't have menu's, just a large chalkboard with the service charge mentioned for tables of 4 or more.

Personally I think it's a bit much to have a service charge for 4 coffee's, but I guess that's the way they run the place.

I'm neither agreeing or disagreeing with the charge. I'm just clearing up the misinformation being spouted. The only place you can see the menu & prices in Avoca is that huge chalk board - and it states it right there. If the OP cared about how much he was paying, he would/could have checked the price list. Moaning about it afterwards is moot, because the info was readily available & displayed where it legally needs to be.

mfceiling

rubadub wrote: »

So you've now been told the story about service charges. In future are you going to ask if there is one? you don't need a menu -you can ask the server. I would also recommend asking the price too since at first you seem concerned, but reading your last post you might not be

Stopping for a quick coffee...realise a coffee won't be more than €2-€3...i don't particulary like avoca but it was the closest place for us all so hey ho.

UDP wrote: »

You seem like a very civil person.

You could have checked their price lists on their website before you went. There you would have seen not only the price of each of their coffee drinks but also "Plus 10% service received entirely by staff".

You don't really have a case here since the prices and note about 10% service charge appears to be on their menus.

You also do not know the difference between a service charge and a tip.

Seriously...a few friends say they are meeting in avoca for a coffee.."sorry guys has anyone run a website check to get the price of the coffees...maybe we could spend the next 40 minutes checking the coffee prices of all the local eateries"

I do know the difference between a service charge and a tip....i don't happen to agree with adding a service charge....i would rather tip for good service than pay a 10% "service charge" which is supposed to be going to a poorly paid waiter.

Mods can you close this thread as i'm off to run a website check on coffee prices in every restaurant in dublin...

UDP

mfceiling wrote: »

Seriously...a few friends say they are meeting in avoca for a coffee.."sorry guys has anyone run a website check to get the price of the coffees...maybe we could spend the next 40 minutes checking the coffee prices of all the local eateries"

Didn't check prices before purchasing a product/service then go online and give out for being charged more than you wanted to be. Lol.

Btw a regular coffee including the service charge is 2-3 euro in avoca so still not sure what you are complaining about.

mfceiling

mfceiling wrote: »

What's the story with this?

Went to meet friends for a coffee in Avoca in dublin today. Paid the bill then looked at the receipt later and noticed that a 10% service charge had been included.....however...i didn't agree to this.

There's no such thing as opt in for this charge. Opt out is fine but who gives permission for me to pay this 10%....

Didn't see any signs anywhere advising of this. Didn't receive a menu as we just ordered 4 coffees straight from the waiter.

What's the story with included service charges?

UDP wrote: »

Didn't check prices before purchasing a product/service then go online and give out for being charged more than you wanted to be. Lol.

Btw a regular coffee including the service charge is 2-3 euro in avoca so still not sure what you are complaining about.

Read the OP there again....didn't give out or mention anything about being charged more than i wanted to be.

You pay a couple of quid for a coffee - that's fine.

You want to pay a tip for good service - that's fine.

The employer pays as little as he can to his employees and then sticks on a "service charge" so you can cover it - not really fine with that.

I was in a restaurant one night and between us we gave the waitress close to 30% - she was brilliant and couldn't have given better service....that's really my point - i would rather "tip" for good service than have a charge forced on to me...

Nanazolie

So if the coffee is 3€ you are ok with it, but if the receipt says 3€ including 10% service charge, you are not? The service charge IS included, regardless whether it is clearly displayed on the receipt or not.

daheff

I do not agree with service charges in restuarants...surely this is already included in the price of what I buy????I cant order a meal and not be served it as part of the purchase!!

Its like buying a plane ticket and then having to pay extra to be allowed to board the plane :mad: (i hope mick ol isnt reading this!)

as far as i'm concerned the price you are quoted should be the price that will bring you the minimum needed to provide the product to you. If I order food i dont expect to pay more for the chef to cook it & the waiter to bring it to my table.


tips are a different thing. If somebody provides a service that enhances my experience then i will tip them. Again thats my determination as to whether they have done so (or if its in my budget)

lanber man

service charges are something i could never get my head around. especially where it applies to say a group of 10 or more people. yes it takes more work to cater for larger crowds but you are getting in that multiple of money. its as if they'd rather one person take up a table of four rather than have it utilized.

sunny2004

There is no mention of the service ??
Its a service charge, to me that is like a tip, I tip if the service is good... if its bad my tip is "change jobs"
I understand the principle of service charges, but I would dispute them if the service is bad.........