Advice for family ganging up on black sheep atheists?

Birroc

My wife and I are atheist. Our children go to a Christian school (no choice) but they will not be doing any of the sacraments, including a communion this year.
I had a weird Xmas period where on a few occasions family members kinda ambushed us on our views and often in front of other relatives. They are all a-la-carte Catholics so it surprised me. I tried to argue my points but ended up getting shouted down with lines such as "what harm will it (communion) do?" and "whats wrong with Jesus' teachings?" and "priests are human too" and "you are using your children to push your views/anger with the church" etc etc

Any advice or good lines on how to deal with this? I am not an aggressive atheist by any means - each to their own - but I feel angry at what happened.

hmmm

I'd tell them my religious views are my own business and end the conversation.

Blowfish

There's no point in attempting to argue as those with strongly held beliefs aren't likely to listen to reason, so just state your position and decline to engage any further.

ElleEm

"How we raise our children is none of your business" should suffice!

Or tell them that you are allowing your children choice on which/if any religion they choose.

kylith

"Our religious choices are none of your business. The discussion is over, and I do not wish to speak about it again."

Then leave the room whenever they bring it up.

Galvasean

Birroc wrote: »

"you are using your children to push your views

My goodness, the irony in that sentence! :eek:

The only thing you can really do in such situations is tell them to mind their own business. They are your kids and you should be under no obligation to raise them in somebody else's faith.

DB21

If they keep it up at your house, tell them that they will no longer be welcome if they continue to attack your views.

Fortyniner

Is there a more tolerant/sympathetic member of the family who might be prepared to understand how upsetting this behaviour is, and somehow act as your agent in explaining this to the others?

magicbastarder

point out that if you had converted to judaism, they would not be pressuring you to have the kids indoctrinated.
and there's much more in common between catholicism and judaism than there is between catholicism and atheism.

or else just tell them to **** off and mind their own business.

Obliq

Hard luck Birroc, that sounds like it was really upsetting Haven't much advice for you though - I reckon when an entire family gangs up on a particular issue, you'll not alter their opinions by confronting them.

Just continue to do as you're doing and they may notice for themselves over time that bringing up your children without religious indoctrination provides them with the freedom to question the status quo in ways that many believers have a hard time doing.

Living with the fact that your family have hurt your feelings and questioned your judgement regarding your children is a different matter - I suggest creating a bit of distance that if they then have a problem with, can be explained to them in those terms, not by entering into any discussion about belief.

philologos

Birroc wrote: »

My wife and I are atheist. Our children go to a Christian school (no choice) but they will not be doing any of the sacraments, including a communion this year.
I had a weird Xmas period where on a few occasions family members kinda ambushed us on our views and often in front of other relatives. They are all a-la-carte Catholics so it surprised me. I tried to argue my points but ended up getting shouted down with lines such as "what harm will it (communion) do?" and "whats wrong with Jesus' teachings?" and "priests are human too" and "you are using your children to push your views/anger with the church" etc etc

Any advice or good lines on how to deal with this? I am not an aggressive atheist by any means - each to their own - but I feel angry at what happened.

Tell them to mind their own business. I doubt you went to see friends and family over Christmas to have your atheism scrutinised. Or if you don't mind discussing tell them to do it with respect.

The last comment in particular is the one I'd see as the most objectionable. It's an aggressive accusation that you're using your children as pawns when you're doing nothing of the sort.

Birroc

Fortyniner wrote: »

Is there a more tolerant/sympathetic member of the family who might be prepared to understand how upsetting this behaviour is, and somehow act as your agent in explaining this to the others?

There are a few sympathisers but I think it would only make things worse to have them speak for me.

Thanks for the advice everyone.

Zombrex

Birroc wrote: »

My wife and I are atheist. Our children go to a Christian school (no choice) but they will not be doing any of the sacraments, including a communion this year.
I had a weird Xmas period where on a few occasions family members kinda ambushed us on our views and often in front of other relatives. They are all a-la-carte Catholics so it surprised me. I tried to argue my points but ended up getting shouted down with lines such as "what harm will it (communion) do?" and "whats wrong with Jesus' teachings?" and "priests are human too" and "you are using your children to push your views/anger with the church" etc etc

Any advice or good lines on how to deal with this? I am not an aggressive atheist by any means - each to their own - but I feel angry at what happened.

Politely inform them that the Catholic Church resent non-Catholics and cultural Catholics from partaking in Catholic rituals when they don't believe the words they are saying.

I always find the "Oh we don't participate out of respect for the beliefs of real Catholics, you wouldn't want us to disrespect the Church would you?" line shuts such people up.

HHobo

I'd be tempted to ask them if they think it is appropriate for you to use your children to push their views but I suspect that anything even approaching reasonable discussion is impossible.

By the sounds of it, this is more an issue of conservatism rather than one of religion. Conservatives often worry that by not conforming you would be opening the children up to ridicule or bullying.
If this is the case, the most reassuring thing they can hear is usually along the lines of "oh it's quite common these days, nobody bats an eyelid at it"

Dades

Did you ask how many times any of them had been to mass this year? Or when the last of them went to confession? No doubt there's a few non-catholic practices that could be leveled at them. Perhaps with the spotlight turned on them the inclination to attack might be less.

That said, try and maintain an amicable discussion. The last thing you want is a family falling out over this nonsense.

Birroc

Dades wrote: »

That said, try and maintain an amicable discussion. The last thing you want is a family falling out over this nonsense.

We have had very amicable and interesting family discussions before but we never involved the children. This year was different for 2 reasons - Communion and Relatives. It was the relatives that initiated the conversation by questioning our eldest about her communion plans or lack thereof. Then the closer family members used this 'issue' and the fact that it was a family get together to get in sly digs and try and humiliate us. I found it all quite cowardly to be honest. Some relatives had no problem joining in with their own comments.

Gbear

I'd be annoyed if someone I knew (or was part of the family) was doing something I thought was morally objectionable and it would grate a bit if they said "mind your own business". I'm not sure what they're doing is entirely for the wrong reasons, although it's almost certainly mostly down to defensiveness brought on by insecurity in their faith.

Ideally, try to argue with them. I do acknowledge however that it's pissing into the wind with most people and just dismissing them and their opinions is fair enough for practicality's sake. If they're ganging up on you and shouting you down they're being assholes so in that circumstances you're perfectly entitled to tell them to piss off.

Out of curiosity, was there any young people hassling you? Because I think that overwhelmingly, people between 18-30 are now not only a la carte Catholics at worst, but also pretty benign about it.

Mark Hamill

Birroc wrote: »

"what harm will it (communion) do?"

"If it does no harm, then it has no effect and is therefore pointless".

Birroc wrote: »

"whats wrong with Jesus' teachings?"

"Well, for one, he did want to bring war and break families apart:
'Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to turn a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law—a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.’ (Matthew 10:34-38)"
"Oh, whats that, you've never actually read this part of Jesus' teachings? :rolleyes:"

Birroc wrote: »

"priests are human too"

"And?"

Birroc wrote: »

"you are using your children to push your views/anger with the church" etc etc

"So by not gong to mass, and by not sending my kids to mass, I'm somehow pushing my views with the church? It must be a strong view for me to be able to push it in absentia"

kiffer

Counter "What harm would it do to to get them confirmed?"
with
"What harm does it do to not get them confirmed?"

Odds are they'll go through one or more of the following:
They'll miss out on money,
It's tradition, a nice special day out for them,
they wont go to heaven!
they'll go to hell!
They won't take the pledge, so will be getting drunk all through their teenage years...
It's just what Irish people do...

The money and tradition lines are easy to deal with, and you can wipe away the heaven and hell ones with a smile and a simple "I don't beleive in them"...

equivariant

How about getting each of them a one year membership of Atheist Ireland. Then go down to the local pub and announce how delighted you are that all you family have become atheists - maybe take out an ad in the local paper and send a letter to the local parish priest. When they complain, ask them hoow it feels to have someone sticking their nose where it doesn't belong and how it feels to be signed up to an organisation without their knowledge and explicit consent.

PS you could also send them a few free copies of "God is Not Great" or something by the Hitch.

Penn

Birroc wrote: »

Any advice or good lines on how to deal with this? I am not an aggressive atheist by any means - each to their own - but I feel angry at what happened.

You answered your own question. Any advice or good lines on how to deal with this? "Each to their own"

Tell them that they believe one thing, you believe another. Each to their own. And you'd also find it hugely disrespectful to their beliefs if you partook in religious ceremonies which you didn't believe in.

fitz0

kiffer wrote: »

They won't take the pledge, so will be getting drunk all through their teenage years...

Ah the pledge. Do they really think that's an effective measure? I'd say it's about as effective as their abstinence agenda.

Sleepy

A la carte Catholics eh?

Easy to defend against: explain to them how they're no more Catholic than you are and educate them that their beliefs actually make them Protestants of some description.

Sit back and watch their brain explode...

McChubbin

I have regular arguements with my mother over the topic of my yet-to-be-concieved future offspring and baptism.
I've told her countless times that I do not believe in God or all that he entails and that I will be raising any children I might have as staunchly Athiest with the view that, should they choose a religion of their own vocation, they can be baptised only if THEY choose to be.
Cue my mother throwing a hissy fit and saying "What if your child is born fighting for his/her/it's life? Sure, the nurses baptise the babies in a life and death situation." She also wants the child to be baptised Christian which I strongly oppose as I don't agree with the idealodgies and views the church has on many topics.
I haven't even got anyone to actually create new life with and already she's sticking her oar in.
I've often joked that if she's really pushed for a baptism I'll be more than happy to indoctrine my children into the church of Satan. At least Satanism, to simplify things a bit, teaches you to accept others regardless of creed or orientation.
I'll be trying some of the comebacks in this thread if the topic ever comes up again.

Blowfish

McChubbin wrote: »

I have regular arguements with my mother over the topic of my yet-to-be-concieved future offspring and baptism.
I've told her countless times that I do not believe in God or all that he entails and that I will be raising any children I might have as staunchly Athiest with the view that, should they choose a religion of their own vocation, they can be baptised only if THEY choose to be.
Cue my mother throwing a hissy fit and saying "What if your child is born fighting for his/her/it's life? Sure, the nurses baptise the babies in a life and death situation." She also wants the child to be baptised Christian which I strongly oppose as I don't agree with the idealodgies and views the church has on many topics.

That argument can be countered by using their own teachings against them.

Ask her that since her god is supposed to be loving and merciful, would he really reject a newborn who dies simply because the parents failed to splash a bit of water on their head? There's no easy answer to that as if she answers yes, she's admitting that god isn't loving and merciful and is happy to punish newborns for the 'sins' of their parents and if she answers no, then baptism is pretty much irrelevant anyway.

philologos

Blowfish wrote: »

That argument can be countered by using their own teachings against them.

Ask her that since her god is supposed to be loving and merciful, would he really reject a newborn who dies simply because the parents failed to splash a bit of water on their head? There's no easy answer to that as if she answers yes, she's admitting that god isn't loving and merciful and is happy to punish newborns for the 'sins' of their parents and if she answers no, then baptism is pretty much irrelevant anyway.

It depends on your understanding of baptism. For example in the Reformed point of view baptism is simply an external sign to an internal motion. The water doesn't do anything it symbolises something. That you have died to yourself and now you are alive in Christ. It's why we have this clichéd term "born again". I prefer adult baptism to infant baptism by far. Baptism in and of itself isn't the criteria for salvation Biblically.

robindch

philologos wrote: »

The water doesn't do anything [...]

Well, that's something we can certainly agree on.

Sertus

Hi OP - As tempting as it is to let rip sometimes, It's all too easy to permanently fall out with otherwise good family and friends over such an issue. If they haven't the skill, capacity or ability to be more tactful of other peoples beliefs, you still have to be bigger than that, and you seem to be.

They clearly have not thought through or understood the point of view properly from both sides, nor can you make them do so.

After they have finished venting, you could say something along the lines of "look, at the end of the day we respect other peoples beliefs, but in return we'd like our right to non belief respected as well. Lets agree to disagree on what we believe/don't believe, lets all stay friends, and from now, lets not talk about eachother's religion, politics, beliefs/non beliefs etc."

Gbear

Sertus wrote: »

Hi OP - As tempting as it is to let rip sometimes, It's all too easy to permanently fall out with otherwise good family and friends over such an issue. If they haven't the skill, capacity or ability to be more tactful of other peoples beliefs, you still have to be bigger than that, and you seem to be.

They clearly have not thought through or understood the point of view properly from both sides, nor can you make them do so.

After they have finished venting, you could say something along the lines of "look, at the end of the day we respect other peoples beliefs, but in return we'd like our right to non belief respected as well. Lets agree to disagree on what we believe/don't believe, lets all stay friends, and from now, lets not talk about eachother's religion, politics, beliefs/non beliefs etc."

I hate this "respect my beliefs" shtick. The world would be a more boring place if nobody ever debated anything. There's just a time and a place for it. It isn't when you're outnumbered 15 to 1.

Sertus

Gbear wrote: »

I hate this "respect my beliefs" shtick. The world would be a more boring place if nobody ever debated anything. There's just a time and a place for it. It isn't when you're outnumbered 15 to 1.

Indeed, but putting it into proper context, the OP isn't simply involved in an amusing debate on boards, college or TV, this is about the OP attempting to maintain important lifelong family relationships (assuming they want to), and the word respect in this context, doesn't mean agree with.

Nodin

Gbear wrote: »

I hate this "respect my beliefs" shtick. The world would be a more boring place if nobody ever debated anything. There's just a time and a place for it. It isn't when you're outnumbered 15 to 1.

...and it sure as fuck isn't at christmas gatherings, which always have catrastrophe potential at the best of times.

recedite

Birroc wrote: »

Our children go to a Christian school (no choice) but they will not be doing any of the sacraments, including a communion this year............... "you are using your children to push your views/anger with the church" etc etc

Assuming your kids have agreed to skip communion, all you have to do is point out that its their own decision.
However you are up against it in that school, because communion is timed to occur at a stage when peer pressure is important, yet mature philosophical views have not yet been developed. Also there is the blatant bribery of communion money.
You can only balance the situation by promising some other equivalent treat or holiday trip if they decide to skip it. If they still want to go ahead with the communion, let them. It will all be forgotten in another year or two anyway, unless they feel they were pushed into something against their will.

Hotblack Desiato

recedite wrote: »

Assuming your kids have agreed to skip communion

I think atheist parents are fully entitled to insist that their children do not take part in sacraments of any religion, until they are adults (and even then I'd damn well not approve)

If they're not baptised they can't be communed or confirmed anyway. And woe betide any church man who tries to do that without my permission.

recedite

ninja900 wrote: »

I think atheist parents are fully entitled to insist that their children do not take part in sacraments of any religion, until they are adults (and even then I'd damn well not approve)

"Entitled", yes, and in practice you can force your own views on your kids (in a situation where they don't agree) for a certain length of time, but ultimately it is bad parenting.

jackofalltrades

recedite wrote: »

Assuming your kids have agreed to skip communion, all you have to do is point out that its their own decision.
However you are up against it in that school, because communion is timed to occur at a stage when peer pressure is important, yet mature philosophical views have not yet been developed.

So you're saying it's their decision, and at the same time saying that they're not mature enough to make that decision????

Dave!

Tell them you feel more affinity for the Muslim faith, so will next year be sending your child to a Madrasa. Watch them sh*t themselves.

fitz0

Dave! wrote: »

Tell them you feel more affinity for the Muslim faith, so will next year be sending your child to a Madrasa. Watch them sh*t themselves.

Sending them to a curry? Madness.

dan dan

Just place your family in their hands. Offer to attend classes in your home as the family gives lessons and instruction on being a GOOD catholic.

Well armed with statistics and carefully chosen passages from the bible, you reserve the right to ask and demand full answers from them. I wager you will not be recieving tuition. A smart priest teacher will not answer that challenge.

Tomk1

Could say you feel a bit like how Jesus Christ must have felt, being hounded & persecuted by the crowd, because you have moved onto the next evolution level of enlightenment, like the Greeks & their many gods, then the christian religions with a single god, the next evolutional step is accepting there is no god, and finding peace of mind in that.

Often people who protest too much, are having serious doubts, it scares them & are trying to reaffirm their belief. If they can draw you into an aurgumentive debate, and find objectional viewpoints to you, like you=bad ...they+religion=good, but for this they also need an audience to show their belief to and get support from, they won't go one & one.

A line from SG1 comes to mind, "the only way to win is to deny the battle"

Thwip!

Just shout "ONLY GOD MAY JUDGE ME" and exit the room like a boss

seriously though tell them that youre upset by their actions and remarks towards your parenting. the baptism thing is a nightmare though. i know ill be raked over the coals for not wanting any eventual children i may have to have one until they can decide for themselves

ShooterSF

If you want to give them an explanation you could suggest that as there are many possible gods, all of which are as likely to exist as one another in your eyes; And given that many of them are angered by people worshipping other gods you have to protect your kids as a parent by not letting them pick one to worship as the odds are heavily against picking the right one.

Hotblack Desiato

recedite wrote: »

"Entitled", yes, and in practice you can force your own views on your kids (in a situation where they don't agree) for a certain length of time, but ultimately it is bad parenting.

It is good parenting to protect your child / adolescent from falling under the influence of religious whack jobs, and instill in them a healthy sense of scepticism Cults and religions (no real difference) both prey on the vulnerable.

Birroc

recedite wrote: »

Assuming your kids have agreed to skip communion, all you have to do is point out that its their own decision.
However you are up against it in that school, because communion is timed to occur at a stage when peer pressure is important, yet mature philosophical views have not yet been developed. Also there is the blatant bribery of communion money.
You can only balance the situation by promising some other equivalent treat or holiday trip if they decide to skip it. If they still want to go ahead with the communion, let them. It will all be forgotten in another year or two anyway, unless they feel they were pushed into something against their will.

They have not been baptised and as atheists we do not bring them to mass. My oldest is fine about not doing communion because we have explained our reasons and would never have seen us take communion. There are several others in the class not doing communion and to be fair, the school are perfectly fine with it. When they get older, they are free to choose any religion they want if any.

Bannasidhe

Birroc wrote: »

They have not been baptised and as atheists we do not bring them to mass. My oldest is fine about not doing communion because we have explained our reasons and would never have seen us take communion. There are several others in the class not doing communion and to be fair, the school are perfectly fine with it. When they get older, they are free to choose any religion they want if any.

Back in the day my son had a minor sulk about not getting a load of money making his communion but now, as a grown man, he has thanked me for keeping him out of the clutches of religion. He does study theology as a hobby with a general air of 'how do people believe this bat**** crazy nonsense?'.

His kids are baptised (as an unmarried father he was simply overruled by their mother who claims to be an atheist but still wanted to keep her opus dei father quiet/have a big party) and we were all horrified to hear his 3 year old son spout 'God made the world/God punishes bad people with fire/Baby Jesus died for me cos I was bold' crap last week - he is 3 years old for feck sake!! Even my Theist OH was outraged by the blatant brainwashing evidenced by a 3 year old making statements he obviously has heard so often he knows them by heart.

6 year old granddaughter has declared she doesn't believe there is a God and has told her teacher (teacher confirmed this) but goes along with it in school as she finds it easier to just tell them what they want to hear :mad:

It near broke my heart to hear her say 'I don't believe what they say Nana but they talk about baby Jesus all the time and I know the answers they are looking for so I give it cos otherwise they just keep asking. Maybe if they get the answers they want we can talk about something else like how tornados happen. I told them I don't believe it but they say I am young and I don't understand - but I do and they say my brother does understand but he is three and thinks Jesus is a superhero like Spiderman and they let him think that and it's all lies'. She then asked me if I would Home School her .

Zillah

How tornados happen

Nodin

Dave! wrote: »

Tell them you feel more affinity for the Muslim faith, so will next year be sending your child to a Madrasa. Watch them sh*t themselves.

...and make sure the wife has the hair covered and he has the start of a beard when he tells them.

shortie_chik

Invite them to pray for your return to the church. They can ask God to bring you back to the fold, even set a deadline for him or ask him for signs or whatever they like. They feel like they're helping and you can get on with your own life. If he can do all the fire & brimstone & other tricks, surely God can manage something as simple as finding one lost sheep?

And until God works his magic on you, any time it's brought up, I'd tell them that they're upsetting you and it's not open for discussion, and leave the room. Good luck with this!

Hotblack Desiato

Bannasidhe wrote: »

It near broke my heart to hear her say 'I don't believe what they say Nana but they talk about baby Jesus all the time and I know the answers they are looking for so I give it cos otherwise they just keep asking. Maybe if they get the answers they want we can talk about something else like how tornados happen. I told them I don't believe it but they say I am young and I don't understand - but I do and they say my brother does understand but he is three and thinks Jesus is a superhero like Spiderman and they let him think that and it's all lies'. She then asked me if I would Home School her .

It's maddening isn't it.

Our 4.5 year old daughter is getting this in school too. She recently asked when was her mammy going to heaven :rolleyes: cue fobbing her off with that it wouldn't be for years and years and years.

Next time the subject of heaven or god comes up I'm going to just tell her I don't believe in it.

Bannasidhe

ninja900 wrote: »

It's maddening isn't it.

Our 4.5 year old daughter is getting this in school too. She recently asked when was her mammy going to heaven :rolleyes: cue fobbing her off with that it wouldn't be for years and years and years.

Next time the subject of heaven or god comes up I'm going to just tell her I don't believe in it.

That's what I say too.

3 year told old me saying you don't believe in God is a sin. Once my blood pressure returned to normal and steam stopped coming out of my ears I told him I don't believe in sin either.

recedite

jackofalltrades wrote: »

So you're saying it's their decision, and at the same time saying that they're not mature enough to make that decision????

I'm just saying its better to persuade kids about these things rather than to just impose your own views. And its unfair of the religious owned schools to put kids in that situation, where they have to choose between going with their classmates or their parents.

pauldla

Bannasidhe wrote: »

...

His kids are baptised (as an unmarried father he was simply overruled by their mother who claims to be an atheist but still wanted to keep her opus dei father quiet/have a big party) and we were all horrified to hear his 3 year old son spout 'God made the world/God punishes bad people with fire/Baby Jesus died for me cos I was bold' crap last week - he is 3 years old for feck sake!! Even my Theist OH was outraged by the blatant brainwashing evidenced by a 3 year old making statements he obviously has heard so often he knows them by heart.

6 year old granddaughter has declared she doesn't believe there is a God and has told her teacher (teacher confirmed this) but goes along with it in school as she finds it easier to just tell them what they want to hear :mad:

It near broke my heart to hear her say 'I don't believe what they say Nana but they talk about baby Jesus all the time and I know the answers they are looking for so I give it cos otherwise they just keep asking. Maybe if they get the answers they want we can talk about something else like how tornados happen. I told them I don't believe it but they say I am young and I don't understand - but I do and they say my brother does understand but he is three and thinks Jesus is a superhero like Spiderman and they let him think that and it's all lies'. She then asked me if I would Home School her .

Vile and inisidious indoctrination. To fill a young mind with such nonsense infuriates me, it really does. Fair play to her interest in tornados, though!

I was reading a post elsewhere about a Christian woman telling her friend that she was going to stop reading the Bible to her young daughter: the girl, it seems, was getting the 'wrong' idea from some of the stories (i.e. God as a nasty, vindictive piece of work), so the mother had decided to just concentrate on prayer and song for a while. Chanting is better than thinking, eh?