Advice for family ganging up on black sheep atheists?

Birroc

My wife and I are atheist. Our children go to a Christian school (no choice) but they will not be doing any of the sacraments, including a communion this year.
I had a weird Xmas period where on a few occasions family members kinda ambushed us on our views and often in front of other relatives. They are all a-la-carte Catholics so it surprised me. I tried to argue my points but ended up getting shouted down with lines such as "what harm will it (communion) do?" and "whats wrong with Jesus' teachings?" and "priests are human too" and "you are using your children to push your views/anger with the church" etc etc

Any advice or good lines on how to deal with this? I am not an aggressive atheist by any means - each to their own - but I feel angry at what happened.

hmmm

I'd tell them my religious views are my own business and end the conversation.

Blowfish

There's no point in attempting to argue as those with strongly held beliefs aren't likely to listen to reason, so just state your position and decline to engage any further.

ElleEm

"How we raise our children is none of your business" should suffice!

Or tell them that you are allowing your children choice on which/if any religion they choose.

kylith

"Our religious choices are none of your business. The discussion is over, and I do not wish to speak about it again."

Then leave the room whenever they bring it up.

Galvasean

Birroc wrote: »

"you are using your children to push your views

My goodness, the irony in that sentence! :eek:

The only thing you can really do in such situations is tell them to mind their own business. They are your kids and you should be under no obligation to raise them in somebody else's faith.

DB21

If they keep it up at your house, tell them that they will no longer be welcome if they continue to attack your views.

Fortyniner

Is there a more tolerant/sympathetic member of the family who might be prepared to understand how upsetting this behaviour is, and somehow act as your agent in explaining this to the others?

magicbastarder

point out that if you had converted to judaism, they would not be pressuring you to have the kids indoctrinated.
and there's much more in common between catholicism and judaism than there is between catholicism and atheism.

or else just tell them to **** off and mind their own business.

Obliq

Hard luck Birroc, that sounds like it was really upsetting Haven't much advice for you though - I reckon when an entire family gangs up on a particular issue, you'll not alter their opinions by confronting them.

Just continue to do as you're doing and they may notice for themselves over time that bringing up your children without religious indoctrination provides them with the freedom to question the status quo in ways that many believers have a hard time doing.

Living with the fact that your family have hurt your feelings and questioned your judgement regarding your children is a different matter - I suggest creating a bit of distance that if they then have a problem with, can be explained to them in those terms, not by entering into any discussion about belief.

philologos

Birroc wrote: »

My wife and I are atheist. Our children go to a Christian school (no choice) but they will not be doing any of the sacraments, including a communion this year.
I had a weird Xmas period where on a few occasions family members kinda ambushed us on our views and often in front of other relatives. They are all a-la-carte Catholics so it surprised me. I tried to argue my points but ended up getting shouted down with lines such as "what harm will it (communion) do?" and "whats wrong with Jesus' teachings?" and "priests are human too" and "you are using your children to push your views/anger with the church" etc etc

Any advice or good lines on how to deal with this? I am not an aggressive atheist by any means - each to their own - but I feel angry at what happened.

Tell them to mind their own business. I doubt you went to see friends and family over Christmas to have your atheism scrutinised. Or if you don't mind discussing tell them to do it with respect.

The last comment in particular is the one I'd see as the most objectionable. It's an aggressive accusation that you're using your children as pawns when you're doing nothing of the sort.

Birroc

Fortyniner wrote: »

Is there a more tolerant/sympathetic member of the family who might be prepared to understand how upsetting this behaviour is, and somehow act as your agent in explaining this to the others?

There are a few sympathisers but I think it would only make things worse to have them speak for me.

Thanks for the advice everyone.

Zombrex

Birroc wrote: »

My wife and I are atheist. Our children go to a Christian school (no choice) but they will not be doing any of the sacraments, including a communion this year.
I had a weird Xmas period where on a few occasions family members kinda ambushed us on our views and often in front of other relatives. They are all a-la-carte Catholics so it surprised me. I tried to argue my points but ended up getting shouted down with lines such as "what harm will it (communion) do?" and "whats wrong with Jesus' teachings?" and "priests are human too" and "you are using your children to push your views/anger with the church" etc etc

Any advice or good lines on how to deal with this? I am not an aggressive atheist by any means - each to their own - but I feel angry at what happened.

Politely inform them that the Catholic Church resent non-Catholics and cultural Catholics from partaking in Catholic rituals when they don't believe the words they are saying.

I always find the "Oh we don't participate out of respect for the beliefs of real Catholics, you wouldn't want us to disrespect the Church would you?" line shuts such people up.

HHobo

I'd be tempted to ask them if they think it is appropriate for you to use your children to push their views but I suspect that anything even approaching reasonable discussion is impossible.

By the sounds of it, this is more an issue of conservatism rather than one of religion. Conservatives often worry that by not conforming you would be opening the children up to ridicule or bullying.
If this is the case, the most reassuring thing they can hear is usually along the lines of "oh it's quite common these days, nobody bats an eyelid at it"

Dades

Did you ask how many times any of them had been to mass this year? Or when the last of them went to confession? No doubt there's a few non-catholic practices that could be leveled at them. Perhaps with the spotlight turned on them the inclination to attack might be less.

That said, try and maintain an amicable discussion. The last thing you want is a family falling out over this nonsense.

Birroc

Dades wrote: »

That said, try and maintain an amicable discussion. The last thing you want is a family falling out over this nonsense.

We have had very amicable and interesting family discussions before but we never involved the children. This year was different for 2 reasons - Communion and Relatives. It was the relatives that initiated the conversation by questioning our eldest about her communion plans or lack thereof. Then the closer family members used this 'issue' and the fact that it was a family get together to get in sly digs and try and humiliate us. I found it all quite cowardly to be honest. Some relatives had no problem joining in with their own comments.

Gbear

I'd be annoyed if someone I knew (or was part of the family) was doing something I thought was morally objectionable and it would grate a bit if they said "mind your own business". I'm not sure what they're doing is entirely for the wrong reasons, although it's almost certainly mostly down to defensiveness brought on by insecurity in their faith.

Ideally, try to argue with them. I do acknowledge however that it's pissing into the wind with most people and just dismissing them and their opinions is fair enough for practicality's sake. If they're ganging up on you and shouting you down they're being assholes so in that circumstances you're perfectly entitled to tell them to piss off.

Out of curiosity, was there any young people hassling you? Because I think that overwhelmingly, people between 18-30 are now not only a la carte Catholics at worst, but also pretty benign about it.

Mark Hamill

Birroc wrote: »

"what harm will it (communion) do?"

"If it does no harm, then it has no effect and is therefore pointless".

Birroc wrote: »

"whats wrong with Jesus' teachings?"

"Well, for one, he did want to bring war and break families apart:
'Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to turn a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law—a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.’ (Matthew 10:34-38)"
"Oh, whats that, you've never actually read this part of Jesus' teachings? :rolleyes:"

Birroc wrote: »

"priests are human too"

"And?"

Birroc wrote: »

"you are using your children to push your views/anger with the church" etc etc

"So by not gong to mass, and by not sending my kids to mass, I'm somehow pushing my views with the church? It must be a strong view for me to be able to push it in absentia"

kiffer

Counter "What harm would it do to to get them confirmed?"
with
"What harm does it do to not get them confirmed?"

Odds are they'll go through one or more of the following:
They'll miss out on money,
It's tradition, a nice special day out for them,
they wont go to heaven!
they'll go to hell!
They won't take the pledge, so will be getting drunk all through their teenage years...
It's just what Irish people do...

The money and tradition lines are easy to deal with, and you can wipe away the heaven and hell ones with a smile and a simple "I don't beleive in them"...

equivariant

How about getting each of them a one year membership of Atheist Ireland. Then go down to the local pub and announce how delighted you are that all you family have become atheists - maybe take out an ad in the local paper and send a letter to the local parish priest. When they complain, ask them hoow it feels to have someone sticking their nose where it doesn't belong and how it feels to be signed up to an organisation without their knowledge and explicit consent.

PS you could also send them a few free copies of "God is Not Great" or something by the Hitch.

Penn

Birroc wrote: »

Any advice or good lines on how to deal with this? I am not an aggressive atheist by any means - each to their own - but I feel angry at what happened.

You answered your own question. Any advice or good lines on how to deal with this? "Each to their own"

Tell them that they believe one thing, you believe another. Each to their own. And you'd also find it hugely disrespectful to their beliefs if you partook in religious ceremonies which you didn't believe in.

fitz0

kiffer wrote: »

They won't take the pledge, so will be getting drunk all through their teenage years...

Ah the pledge. Do they really think that's an effective measure? I'd say it's about as effective as their abstinence agenda.

Sleepy

A la carte Catholics eh?

Easy to defend against: explain to them how they're no more Catholic than you are and educate them that their beliefs actually make them Protestants of some description.

Sit back and watch their brain explode...

McChubbin

I have regular arguements with my mother over the topic of my yet-to-be-concieved future offspring and baptism.
I've told her countless times that I do not believe in God or all that he entails and that I will be raising any children I might have as staunchly Athiest with the view that, should they choose a religion of their own vocation, they can be baptised only if THEY choose to be.
Cue my mother throwing a hissy fit and saying "What if your child is born fighting for his/her/it's life? Sure, the nurses baptise the babies in a life and death situation." She also wants the child to be baptised Christian which I strongly oppose as I don't agree with the idealodgies and views the church has on many topics.
I haven't even got anyone to actually create new life with and already she's sticking her oar in.
I've often joked that if she's really pushed for a baptism I'll be more than happy to indoctrine my children into the church of Satan. At least Satanism, to simplify things a bit, teaches you to accept others regardless of creed or orientation.
I'll be trying some of the comebacks in this thread if the topic ever comes up again.

Blowfish

McChubbin wrote: »

I have regular arguements with my mother over the topic of my yet-to-be-concieved future offspring and baptism.
I've told her countless times that I do not believe in God or all that he entails and that I will be raising any children I might have as staunchly Athiest with the view that, should they choose a religion of their own vocation, they can be baptised only if THEY choose to be.
Cue my mother throwing a hissy fit and saying "What if your child is born fighting for his/her/it's life? Sure, the nurses baptise the babies in a life and death situation." She also wants the child to be baptised Christian which I strongly oppose as I don't agree with the idealodgies and views the church has on many topics.

That argument can be countered by using their own teachings against them.

Ask her that since her god is supposed to be loving and merciful, would he really reject a newborn who dies simply because the parents failed to splash a bit of water on their head? There's no easy answer to that as if she answers yes, she's admitting that god isn't loving and merciful and is happy to punish newborns for the 'sins' of their parents and if she answers no, then baptism is pretty much irrelevant anyway.

philologos

Blowfish wrote: »

That argument can be countered by using their own teachings against them.

Ask her that since her god is supposed to be loving and merciful, would he really reject a newborn who dies simply because the parents failed to splash a bit of water on their head? There's no easy answer to that as if she answers yes, she's admitting that god isn't loving and merciful and is happy to punish newborns for the 'sins' of their parents and if she answers no, then baptism is pretty much irrelevant anyway.

It depends on your understanding of baptism. For example in the Reformed point of view baptism is simply an external sign to an internal motion. The water doesn't do anything it symbolises something. That you have died to yourself and now you are alive in Christ. It's why we have this clichéd term "born again". I prefer adult baptism to infant baptism by far. Baptism in and of itself isn't the criteria for salvation Biblically.

robindch

philologos wrote: »

The water doesn't do anything [...]

Well, that's something we can certainly agree on.

Sertus

Hi OP - As tempting as it is to let rip sometimes, It's all too easy to permanently fall out with otherwise good family and friends over such an issue. If they haven't the skill, capacity or ability to be more tactful of other peoples beliefs, you still have to be bigger than that, and you seem to be.

They clearly have not thought through or understood the point of view properly from both sides, nor can you make them do so.

After they have finished venting, you could say something along the lines of "look, at the end of the day we respect other peoples beliefs, but in return we'd like our right to non belief respected as well. Lets agree to disagree on what we believe/don't believe, lets all stay friends, and from now, lets not talk about eachother's religion, politics, beliefs/non beliefs etc."

Gbear

Sertus wrote: »

Hi OP - As tempting as it is to let rip sometimes, It's all too easy to permanently fall out with otherwise good family and friends over such an issue. If they haven't the skill, capacity or ability to be more tactful of other peoples beliefs, you still have to be bigger than that, and you seem to be.

They clearly have not thought through or understood the point of view properly from both sides, nor can you make them do so.

After they have finished venting, you could say something along the lines of "look, at the end of the day we respect other peoples beliefs, but in return we'd like our right to non belief respected as well. Lets agree to disagree on what we believe/don't believe, lets all stay friends, and from now, lets not talk about eachother's religion, politics, beliefs/non beliefs etc."

I hate this "respect my beliefs" shtick. The world would be a more boring place if nobody ever debated anything. There's just a time and a place for it. It isn't when you're outnumbered 15 to 1.

Sertus

Gbear wrote: »

I hate this "respect my beliefs" shtick. The world would be a more boring place if nobody ever debated anything. There's just a time and a place for it. It isn't when you're outnumbered 15 to 1.

Indeed, but putting it into proper context, the OP isn't simply involved in an amusing debate on boards, college or TV, this is about the OP attempting to maintain important lifelong family relationships (assuming they want to), and the word respect in this context, doesn't mean agree with.

Nodin

Gbear wrote: »

I hate this "respect my beliefs" shtick. The world would be a more boring place if nobody ever debated anything. There's just a time and a place for it. It isn't when you're outnumbered 15 to 1.

...and it sure as fuck isn't at christmas gatherings, which always have catrastrophe potential at the best of times.