On-the-spot fines on the way for cyclists

monument

So reports today's Sunday Times. The minister has apparently changed his mind after consulting with the gardai.

Last year I wrote about how the department claimed a system of on-the-spot fines for cyclists was unworkable. But that position really was untenable.

Little detail so-far and -- like most law changes -- it will likely take some time to be drafted.

Ryder

monument wrote: »

So reports today's Sunday Times. The minister has apparently changed his mind after consulting with the gardai.

Last year I wrote about how the department claimed a system of on-the-spot fines for cyclists was unworkable. But that position really was untenable.

Little detail so-far and -- like most law changes -- it will likely take some time to be drafted.

this is most likely a good move..
..increased accountability and will hopefully reduce the us versus them mentality. Although it might be a slippery slope leading to taxation and licenses, as revenue generators

gwakamoley

How will this be enforced though? When I'm out on a training ride the most I have is a few euro to buy some food in the shop and I wouldn't be carrying any cards with me. Would the Gardaí have to bring me home to pay up if I was issued with a fine?

dewsbury

gwakamoley wrote: »

How will this be enforced though? When I'm out on a training ride the most I have is a few euro to buy some food in the shop and I wouldn't be carrying any cards with me. Would the Gardaí have to bring me home to pay up if I was issued with a fine?

The term "on the spot fine" does NOT mean that you literally pay on the spot.

It means that you are deemed guilty and a fine will be issued to your address (with no need for court).

You would never pay a guard directly.

dozy doctor

Well if it makes cyclists stop cycling double brested its gotta be a good thing....
I nearly knocked a cyclist over the other day when he was cycling double brested and swerved out into my path...
Really dangerous....

Darkglasses

gwakamoley wrote: »

How will this be enforced though? When I'm out on a training ride the most I have is a few euro to buy some food in the shop and I wouldn't be carrying any cards with me. Would the Gardaí have to bring me home to pay up if I was issued with a fine?

I'm sure they can just serve you the fine on the spot, which you can then pay at a Garda station within a certain time limit. (If you were ever to breach the ROTR that is)

Fully support this move, whenever it does finally come into force I hope there is a major clamp down on ninjas and salmon.

barney 20v

I approve . About time they are treated as proper road users.

Darkglasses

dozy doctor wrote: »

Well if it makes cyclists stop cycling double brested its gotta be a good thing....
I nearly knocked a cyclist over the other day when he was cycling double brested and swerved out into my path...
Really dangerous....

:rolleyes: Oh here we go. It seemed too good to be true that a few days had passed since someone mentioned double breasting here.

Please consult the ROTR, it is perfectly legal to cycle two side-by-side. This has been gone through a billion times here, please use the search function if you want to find out more.

greenmat

dozy doctor wrote: »

Well if it makes cyclists stop cycling double brested its gotta be a good thing....
I nearly knocked a cyclist over the other day when he was cycling double brested and swerved out into my path...
Really dangerous....

Just drive with more due care and attention to other road users and you should have no more problems.

monument

gwakamoley wrote: »

How will this be enforced though? When I'm out on a training ride the most I have is a few euro to buy some food in the shop and I wouldn't be carrying any cards with me. Would the Gardaí have to bring me home to pay up if I was issued with a fine?

You're issued a fine on-the-spot. There's not a need to have it payable on the spot. You then pay within a set amount of days or you'll end up in court.

If a garda suspects you are giving him or her false information they already have the power under current laws to take your bicycle from you.

jaqian

dozy doctor wrote: »

Well if it makes cyclists stop cycling double brested its gotta be a good thing....
I nearly knocked a cyclist over the other day when he was cycling double brested and swerved out into my path...
Really dangerous....

Someone correct me if i am wrong but cycling side by side is not illegal.

hattoncracker

jaqian wrote: »

Someone correct me if i am wrong but cycling side by side is not illegal.

No, but I would imagine swerving into oncoming traffic might be.

Darkglasses

jaqian wrote: »

Someone correct me if i am wrong but cycling side by side is not illegal.

You are quite correct. 2 is fine. 3 is ok, if it is one cyclist over-taking a pair. 4 or more is not fine.

For more, look to the past threads.

http://www.boards.ie/search/submit/?query=Abreast

yop

jaqian wrote: »

Someone correct me if i am wrong but cycling side by side is not illegal.

It isn't. Take no heed, we are used to the regular "commentators" on here looking for cyclists to pay "motor insurance", "have insurance", "number plates" etc etc etc.
One clown even claimed that the bike was mechanically propelled and deserved to be treated the same as a car.

I don't carry ID on my bike, so how are they going to tell who we are?

"Lance Armstrong Garda".

Ryder

jaqian wrote: »

Someone correct me if i am wrong but cycling side by side is not illegal.

correct, its also a good defensive manouvere on narrow roads as it helps to ensure that a passing driver has to ensure the opposite la r is clear, and not squeeze past a single cyclist

Darkglasses

yop wrote: »

"Lance Armstrong Garda".

I think you can expect the following response

Garda wrote:

Station. Now.

If you commit a crime on foot, pick-pocket or something, do you think you'll get off if you have no ID?

greenmat

hattoncracker wrote: »

No, but I would imagine swerving into oncoming traffic might be.

Not if your trying to avoid a pothole/hazard etc, Drivers just need to learn to give at least 1.5M clearance to cyclists when OVERTAKING. We're road users too, if there's not enough room to overtake safely leaving enough clearance, wait behind till there is. Simple.

dermiek

a good punch into the face and cycle away like mad should do the trick.

Unless you're shaped like me.

:pac:

scudzilla

About time too, for far too long have Cyclists ignored rules of the road, let's hope the Garda really clamp down on these clowns who skip red lights and cut corners on the pavements

yop

Darkglasses wrote: »

I think you can expect the following response



If you commit a crime on foot, pick-pocket or something, do you think you'll get off if you have no ID?

The local lad around here has a 10 year old Fiesta I think some of our crowd would out sprint him!

ashleey

scudzilla wrote: »

About time too, for far too long have Cyclists ignored rules of the road, let's hope the Garda really clamp down on these clowns who skip red lights and cut corners on the pavements

Wrong forum. You want the motors forum. Or just search and see this subject done to death already.

trad

Your man in Swords is going to be busy

BostonB

hattoncracker wrote: »

No, but I would imagine swerving into oncoming traffic might be.

Oncoming usually refers to traffic coming head on in the opposite direction, on the other side of the road. Following traffic is usually traffic behind you.

And its not unexpected for a cyclist to move in and out to avoid obstruction on the road. Which is why they should be given a wide berth when passing them. Not squeeze past with no margin for error.

scudzilla

scudzilla wrote: »

About time too, for far too long have Cyclists ignored rules of the road, let's hope the Garda really clamp down on these clowns who skip red lights and cut corners on the pavements

ashleey wrote: »

Wrong forum. You want the motors forum. Or just search and see this subject done to death already.

Why the wrong forum? Surely if people in cars get points/fined for this, then i can say i'm happy that cyclists will now get fined too, oh wait, sorry, am i not allowed to go against the cyclist in the cycling forum?

ashleey

No. You are right. It's fair enough that cyclists should face the same penalties for breaking the law.

It's just this subject just degenerates in the same way as if someone has a moan about crappy little cars with noisy exhausts and stupid blue bulbs and rs4 badges on 1.9 tdi Audi a4s, as though all posters in the motors forum drive them

07Lapierre

scudzilla wrote: »

About time too, for far too long have Cyclists ignored rules of the road, let's hope the Garda really clamp down on these clowns who skip red lights and cut corners on the pavements

There not cyclists....there just plonkers on bikes and in cars!!

Maudi

gwakamoley wrote: »

How will this be enforced though? When I'm out on a training ride the most I have is a few euro to buy some food in the shop and I wouldn't be carrying any cards with me. Would the Gardaí have to bring me home to pay up if I was issued with a fine?

something tells me you dont always wear headgear.

Darkglasses

scudzilla wrote: »

Why the wrong forum? Surely if people in cars get points/fined for this, then i can say i'm happy that cyclists will now get fined too, oh wait, sorry, am i not allowed to go against the cyclist in the cycling forum?

All Boardsies that I have ever had the pleasure of cycling with have been fully observant of all traffic laws. However, we are all well aware that there are plenty of cyclists out there who regularly flout the ROTR. In your initial post, it appears that you tar all cyclists with the same brush - "for far too long cyclists have ignored the rules of the road.". Considering it is the cycling forum, it would be appreciated if you would take care to note that there are a huge number of cyclists who always observe the ROTR.

scudzilla

Darkglasses wrote: »

All Boardsies that I have ever had the pleasure of cycling with have been fully observant of all traffic laws. However, we are all well aware that there are plenty of cyclists out there who regularly flout the ROTR. In your initial post, it appears that you tar all cyclists with the same brush - "for far too long cyclists have ignored the rules of the road.". Considering it is the cycling forum, it would be appreciated if you would take care to note that there are a huge number of cyclists who always observe the ROTR.

Ah right, i didn't mean it to come across in that way, just like motorists, there's the minority of cyclists who are a pain in the hole.

Nothing more annoying when i'm sat in my car at a red light and a cyclist goes shooting through or cuts the pavement.

i hope that THESE cyclists are hammered by the gardai, and if they don't have any ID, then take 'em to the station

dited

scudzilla wrote: »

Why the wrong forum? Surely if people in cars get points/fined for this, then i can say i'm happy that cyclists will now get fined too, oh wait, sorry, am i not allowed to go against the cyclist in the cycling forum?

Gardaí have always had the power to fine cyclists, just not issue on-the-spot fines. They've had to go through the time-consuming rigamarole of bringing law-breaking cyclists through the courts system, which they have, it's just not very efficient.

It has also proved possible for cyclists to be issued with points on their driving licence for contravening traffic laws while on their bike. The case reported in the Indo a couple of years ago of a gent running red lights and causing an accident at a crossroads somewhere around the NCR comes to mind.

A cursory search of this forum for similar threads will reveal that the majority of posters are in favour of on-the-spot fines for cyclists.

Having said all of that, surely you must agree that the gardaí ought focus their limited resources on the areas which result in the most casualties. While they may be irritating, and occasionally dangerous, red-light-jumpers and cyclists who use the footpad do not, generally, result in casualties.

scudzilla

dited wrote: »

Gardaí have always had the power to fine cyclists, just not issue on-the-spot fines. They've had to go through the time-consuming rigamarole of bringing law-breaking cyclists through the courts system, which they have, it's just not very efficient.

It has also proved possible for cyclists to be issued with points on their driving licence for contravening traffic laws while on their bike. The case reported in the Indo a couple of years ago of a gent running red lights and causing an accident at a crossroads somewhere around the NCR comes to mind.

A cursory search of this forum for similar threads will reveal that the majority of posters are in favour of on-the-spot fines for cyclists.

Having said all of that, surely you must agree that the gardaí ought focus their limited resources on the areas which result in the most casualties. While they may be irritating, and occasionally dangerous, red-light-jumpers and cyclists who use the footpad do not, generally, result in casualties.

Ah that's fine then, nobody gets hurt so let's let them off

Darkglasses

scudzilla wrote: »

Ah right, i didn't mean it to come across in that way, just like motorists, there's the minority of cyclists who are a pain in the hole.

Nothing more annoying when i'm sat in my car at a red light and a cyclist goes shooting through or cuts the pavement.

i hope that THESE cyclists are hammered by the gardai, and if they don't have any ID, then take 'em to the station

Snap!

dited

scudzilla wrote: »

Ah that's fine then, nobody gets hurt so let's let them off

Please read the entire post ...

dited wrote:

The majority of posters are in favour of on-the-spot fines for cyclists.

My point was that there are many transgressions of road traffic law to which a blind eye is turned by the guards, eg speed limits. While this is far from ideal, unfortunately, given the limited resources available, surely it's better to prioritise the policing of transgressions with a high risk of injury/fatality, such as speeding?

That said, I'm wholly in favour of on-the-spot-fines for law-breaking cyclists. Perhaps the same rigours of law that are brought to bear upon mobile-using motorists will be brought to bear upon our footpad-using two-wheelers.

BostonB

scudzilla wrote: »

Why the wrong forum? Surely if people in cars get points/fined for this, then i can say i'm happy that cyclists will now get fined too, oh wait, sorry, am i not allowed to go against the cyclist in the cycling forum?

Go into motoring gloating about speeding finds for 1kph over the limit and see what reaction that gets you.

Reality is they'll make a show about this, for a week maybe then it will go back to the way it is now, with minimal resources on the street, so no one to enforce these on the spot fines.

Someone suggested it might make drivers feel less annoyed. I doubt it though, because its sitting in traffic that's annoying them. They don't seem to realise that more cyclists only reduces traffic, and helps drivers. if they took that onboard perhaps they might see that waiting behind a cyclist for 30 secs is nothing over a 30 min drive.

BostonB

scudzilla wrote: »

...Nothing more annoying when i'm sat in my car at a red light and a cyclist goes shooting through or cuts the pavement. ...

Funnily enough, I don't find red lights as annoying when I'm cycling as when I'm driving. I use them as an opportunity to take a breather and do some people watching. In the car lights are much for frustrating.

stas

While on the subject of red lights, I do my best (if brakes/tyres allow) to stop, but there's this part of N11 when coming into town I am cycling on a cycle path that's not really part of the intersection. Am I meant to stop at red lights there? There is what seems like a stop line on the path, so I guess I should stop?

tomasrojo

Glad to see on-the-spot fines being brought back to the table. Provided they don't start trying to hand them out for infraction of laws that don't actually exist, as has happened in New York and Madrid, where police have been known to hand out fines for the non-wearing of helmets to people who don't legally have to wear them (i.e. adults in New York and everyone in Madrid). Not that anyone would have to pay such a fine, but it makes cycling considerably less pleasant when you have a fine handed to you for no reason.

I wish I could have thought of an example that didn't involve helmets, but I couldn't, so I'll just plead with people not to start discussing helmets themselves.

Cee-Jay-Cee

In order to enforce this they are going to have to attempt to make cyclists carry some form of ID which opens a whole can of worms. It's not like on the spot fines for motoring offences where they at least have the car registration number to trace you if you have no ID on you.

I honestly can't see this working, guards are not going to be detaining cyclists and their bikes until they establish identities unless someone has been hurt or injured and that already happens so nothing will really change except that a system may be in place but the numbers of those being fined and paying up will be minuscule.

seamus

No ID? Take the bike. If it's not claimed in 30 days, it goes to auction.

Dead simple and removes some of the plebs on their junkers from the road.

The tax man

scudzilla wrote: »

Ah right, i didn't mean it to come across in that way, just like motorists, there's the minority of cyclists who are a pain in the hole.

Nothing more annoying when i'm sat in my car at a red light and a cyclist goes shooting through or cuts the pavement.

i hope that THESE cyclists are hammered by the gardai, and if they don't have any ID, then take 'em to the station

It's even worse when you're on a bike sitting at said red light and some plonker runs it.

These "people on bikes" won't see any of this because they're not cyclists like you have on this forum. Same as the people hogging the centre lane of the M50 don't have a clue about the ROTR or a motoring passion so wouldn't even know about the motors forum.

Most here also drive so are well aware of the rules when out on the road.
Hell,my job involves driving all day and I've a 2ltr Subaru in the drive for the weekends.:) Still, cycling is my main passion, closely followed by motorsport.

If these fines did come into force....great 'cause nearly everyone here has nothing to worry about. Anything to put a stop to the George Hook syndrome.

Cee-Jay-Cee

seamus wrote: »

No ID? Take the bike. If it's not claimed in 30 days, it goes to auction.

Dead simple and removes some of the plebs on their junkers from the road.

But in reality that's not going to happen except possibly in cases where someone ends up Hurt/injured. Guards generally have enough to be doing without having to be taking a bike from someone who broke a red light and had no ID on them, then having to take the bike back to the station, filling out forms and probably entering details in a register or on a computer. That simply isn't going to happen.

tomasrojo

CJC999 wrote: »

In order to enforce this they are going to have to attempt to make cyclists carry some form of ID which opens a whole can of worms. It's not like on the spot fines for motoring offences where they at least have the car registration number to trace you if you have no ID on you.

In the UK, as here, there is no obligation to carry ID, but they do have on-the-spot fines.

As far as I know, what to do about the ID issue is an operational matter for the police – I haven’t come across any laws on this. As I recall, though, the police can arrest you if they think you’ve committed an offence and can’t ascertain your details – so providing ID might be a way to avoid arrest…

http://ukcyclerules.com/2012/01/04/challenging-a-fixed-penalty-notice/

I think that's roughly how it works: nearly everyone suddenly finds that they have some sort of ID, even if it's just an ATM card, once they're presented with the alternative of being arrested.

Ryder

CJC999 wrote: »

But in reality that's not going to happen except possibly in cases where someone ends up Hurt/injured. Guards generally have enough to be doing without having to be taking a bike from someone who broke a red light and had no ID on them, then having to take the bike back to the station, filling out forms and probably entering details in a register or on a computer. That simply isn't going to happen.

what's the alternative? Lie? Even though the chance of getting caught out is small, I'd pay a fine a million times over lying to the police....im sure most would think the same

alanrebelsw

Most posters on this thread are hilarious... Some up themselves and their opinions show it, others not even close to reality, one or two taking sense

dozy doctor

Darkglasses wrote: »

:rolleyes: Oh here we go. It seemed too good to be true that a few days had passed since someone mentioned double breasting here.

Please consult the ROTR, it is perfectly legal to cycle two side-by-side. This has been gone through a billion times here, please use the search function if you want to find out more.

I am not denying what you say is true Darkglasses, but how far are cyclists allowed to infringe on a driving lane.... My understanding as that a cyclist is allowed to use a third of the lane, and not drive on over 2/3's of a lane like I usually see them do...

Surely it is in the cyclists interest to stay alive and why anyone would want to cycle nearer the center of the road defies logic to me.....

Chips Lovell

alanrebelsw wrote: »

Most posters on this thread are hilarious... Some up themselves and their opinions show it, others not even close to reality, one or two taking sense

Quit trolling.

Thank you.

pickarooney

dozy doctor wrote: »

Well if it makes cyclists stop cycling double brested its gotta be a good thing....
I nearly knocked a cyclist over the other day when he was cycling double brested and swerved out into my path...
Really dangerous....

Damn them and their fancy three-piece suits.

AltAccount

dozy doctor wrote: »

I am not denying what you say is true Darkglasses, but how far are cyclists allowed to infringe on a driving lane.... My understanding as that a cyclist is allowed to use a third of the lane, and not drive on over 2/3's of a lane like I usually see them do...

Can you find this in the ROTR, or is it just something you heard once?

galwaycyclist

dozy doctor wrote: »

I am not denying what you say is true Darkglasses, but how far are cyclists allowed to infringe on a driving lane.... My understanding as that a cyclist is allowed to use a third of the lane, and not drive on over 2/3's of a lane like I usually see them do...

Surely it is in the cyclists interest to stay alive and why anyone would want to cycle nearer the center of the road defies logic to me.....

Cycling in the centre of the lane is termed "the primary position" in cycle training. This is because it is the default road position to use. It is the best place from which to observe the road conditions ahead and from which to see other road users and assess their intentions. It is also a good position for ensuring you are visible to other road users. It may on occasion be necessary to pull out further to the right so as to assert your presence and ensure you are seen. One example would be where you have formed a judgement that a following driver might be tempted to try overtaking in a manner that would endanger your own person or your property. To yield to a following driver you may choose to cycle closer to the left but you are not required to cycle in the gutter.

As to your use of the term "infringe" there is no general difference in law between drivers and cyclists or between bicycles and other vehicles. Except that cyclists always enjoy a common law right to make lawful use of public roads - motorists have no right to use public roads and must satisfy certain licence requirements before engaging in an act that would otherwise be illegal i.e. driving a car.

endacl

barney 20v wrote: »

I approve . About time they are treated as proper road users.

By guards, or by drivers? Would be good if you meant drivers.

stateofflux

Ryder wrote: »

this is most likely a good move..
..increased accountability and will hopefully reduce the us versus them mentality. Although it might be a slippery slope leading to taxation and licenses, as revenue generators

imo neither taxes / licences or laws will ever be effectively enforceable for cyclists. especially with current gardai staff numbers.