[Long] VW Phaeton - soon to be bargain Used buy of the decade?

Matt Simis

Ive been keeping on eye on Phaeton prices for quite a while as they continue to tumble. I had a V10TDI version about 4years ago and friends/family still romance about it. Much more than any photo or paper spec can impart, it was a stunning car to simply sit in. The fitment, the craftsmanship, the leather, even the hinges were simply a cut above what passes as "premium" these days. Over 100 patents were registered for the Phaeton, its the showcase for the next 10years of trickle down enhancements to the rest of the range.

For those that dont know, the Phaeton is handbuilt by a small team of elite engineers at the Glass Factory in Dresden. Based on the VAG D1 Steel platform, its platform shared (which is an understatement, both cars share interior layout and most chassis components) with the Bentley Flying Spur.



Aside from some of the early 3.2litre engines, all Phaetons are Automatic and AWD (Torsen Mechanical 4motion) and all have 4 selectable suspension comfort levels plus 2 ride heights. . Looking at Ebay.co.uk / Autotrader (Irish models and pricing not enough to use as benchmark), we get these price points:


Under £3500
Gets you a 2003-2004 3.2litre V6 model, 240bhp, 8.9sec to 60, 23mpg. Considered the worst of the range (the car is over 2ton, 3.2litre V6 not strong enough) its still staggering to think for close to £3k you still could own what could have been reshelled into a Bentley. Be warned though, its fairly slow, truly show over go cruiser.

Under £5500
Should bag you a 4.2 V8 model, the "sweet" spot of the petrol line up. 335bhp, 6.7s to 60, 21mpg, its clearly a better suited engine than the 3.2 (close MPG but vastly better performance). Considered the "sporty" model, the V8 actually sounds quite nice too and is rev-happy. Its also geared more aggressively than the Audi A8 4.2.

Under £7500
At this point you can get the "sensible" option in the line up, the 3.0TDI. Still its only 29mpg and 240bhp, so not really terribly interesting. VW UK also had a deal on these when new and many were sold heavily discounted.

Under £10k
At this point the V10TDI 5.0 is an option. Although I had one and loved it, it is a very pointless engine.. 300bhp and only 24mpg (in a diesel). Nothing gets off the line as fast but I suspect the V8 petrol (being 200kg lighter and noticeably higher BHP) is a better option. Almost the same MPG too. Still, a funny car to blast off in, mine was remapped to 350bhp and 650ft/lbs torque (ie 880nm).

Historically the W12 (6.0litre petrol NA) is about 10% more than the V10TDI but its super rare used and likely will retain values better being the rare edition of a rare car.


Im thinking the V8 model which offers performance on par with a Audi S8 (D2), decent economy (much better mpg than the S8!) would make a excellent LPG or low commute cruiser. I just cannot find anything that touches it at that price point, its cheap not because its bad, but because its an over-engineered commercial failure. Which makes it the best case used buy ever! :cool:


Would Irelands love of Passats/VW get over the fear of tax to realise this bargain? Not likely eh? :pac:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DQtzi-GC-Y

PS: MPG figures are combined, not Motorway or City.

Stallingrad

Great thread. I saw one outside a VW dealer up north 2 years ago for £20k, it looked fantastic and like so much car for the money. I think it is a very handsome car but that interior looks woeful to me, I am not sure if the wood is real but it sure looks fake to me, it is just so similar to Passat. Would love to know what running costs are like, servicing must be punitive.

Matt Simis

Stallingrad wrote: »

Great thread. I saw one outside a VW dealer up north 2 years ago for £20k, it looked fantastic and like so much car for the money. I think it is a very handsome car but that interior looks woeful to me, I am not sure if the wood is real but it sure looks fake to me, it is just so similar to Passat. Would love to know what running costs are like, servicing must be punitive.

You do have more options than the wood you know?
Im not a fan of wood interiors but mine had it and IMO it looks nice in person, looks way too shiney and orange in photos (which it isnt).

Servicing, dunno, dealer is hyper expensive but no moreso than an SClass (actually prolly better than an SClass) or Audi 8 or BMW 7. Or Bentley..

Henry Ford III

Badge both makes and ruins it.

Eric Cartman

Henry Ford III wrote: »

Badge both makes and ruins it.

If that car had have been audi's next A8 , it would not be as rare or cheap as it is now.

ShadowHearth

in the end of the day its still a huge passat for me . if i would have that money i would still go for 7 series.

nice thread and post though

unkel

Looks like a cheap Skoda / VW. But it is actually a Bentley. And nearly as cheap as a Saab. I love it

MugMugs

Savage post Matt. I've toyed with the prospect once or twice. I find it pretty hard to keep what I have ticking though but if my commute changes anytime soon I'll catch up with you and we can see who's is more luxurious

Fantastic car. Would give my left teeth to take a spin in one!

MugMugs

ShadowHearth wrote: »

in the end of the day its still a huge passat for me . if i would have that money i would still go for 7 series.

nice thread and post though

A break from the norm though, no? Something different! Unique?

colm_mcm

wonski

Nice post, finally something related to motors rather than roundabout and l-plates, on the forum...
I am not a big fan of this model, it just doesn't look as great as it should.
And not surprised it didn't make great success. The original price didn't go with the look. It may feel fantastic, when you sit in one, but it still looks like passat. Engine's choice is great, no passat will offer you that, i admit.
Now found one on Donedeal - 2004, 3.2, asking price - 8400???
Under 3500 pounds in UK - good,
over 8000 here - not so good.

Now, if it looked more like Bentley, and less like Passat/Superb, this would be nice car.

unkel

wonski wrote: »

Now, if it looked more like Bentley, and less like Passat/Superb, this would be nice car.

Then it would be three times the price. You can't have your cake and eat it

If the less lean times are ever coming back, I certainly will consider buying one!

Matt Simis

wonski wrote: »

Now, if it looked more like Bentley, and less like Passat/Superb, this would be nice car.

Personally I cant stand the look of the Flying Spur. The Continential GT yes, but the FS looks like you boxified a Phaeton. Granted people say the Phaeton looks like a Passat (which is incorrect as the Phaeton was out before the Passat of this gen, its the Passat that looks like a small, cheap Phaeton) but taking a step back.. thats not such a bad thing as the Passat isnt ugly. Common yes, but its not an unattractive car. And a not so stand out car solves the problem for people in "bad neighbourhoods" that want something nice but are afraid of theft, vandalism etc.


Now obviously Im slightly (alot) biased as I already owned a Phaeton, but in 3-dimensions it looks a lot less like a Passat. Related yes, but it has to be, its the flagship of the lineup. Here was my one; colour coded lower bumpers, lower bumper chrome trim from 2007 facelift, tinted and lowered and on 20" Audi S8 wheels:




No Passat has flared arches (again in 3d, in the metal very impressive), that Nissan GTR style boot/lights or the chunky but sleek panel fit and "4 door coupe" shape (ok the Passat CC does some of these too!). Also Phaetons have 8 to 11 layers of paint!

The Pontiac

Well it won't be the used bargain of the decade if you keep starting internet threads about it.

Great thread by the way.

SniperSight

unkel wrote: »

Then it would be three times the price. You can't have your cake and eat it

Not much point in having cake if you can't eat it :-P
Seriously though, I get your point.

Big Nasty

There was plenty of them in Belgium when I was there in 05/06.

Fine looking car but I would prefer an S8.

(Yeah, I know - you have one of them too Matt)

Matt Simis

MCMLXXV wrote: »

There was plenty of them in Belgium when I was there in 05/06.
Fine looking car but I would prefer an S8.
(Yeah, I know - you have one of them too Matt)

Well I had an S8 yes, sold it. It was also great, but the Phaeton is better spec'ed and a different chassis (its a super rigid steel version of the Aluminium bodied Audi). Different sides of the same coin I guess.

The Audi was a better drivers car, the Phaeton a more comfortable and "self assured" type of affair. Also there is the matter of the price of S8's, the 2006 D3 model (the D2 is much older and not a fair comparison) is £15k plus.

Sitec wrote: »

You had a V10 and sold it?:pac:

And bought a V12 yes!

Marcusm

What a coincidence; only today I have been perusing Autotrader looking at luxobarges (Flying Spur, S8, 750/760 and Phaeton) and saw great value in them. Something likethis looks good too.....


http://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/201211214328234/sort/default/make/BMW/model/7%20SERIES/postcode/se14tx/radius/1501/fuel-type/petrol/maximum-age/up_to_7_years_old/price-to/20000/onesearchad/used%2Cnearlynew%2Cnew/page/2/advert-type/featured-listing/dealer/12036/usedcars?logcode=flp

lomb

Makes no sense to me at all at that level and I like VWs. The A8 at least can be differentiated and quite frankly I prefer my cars built by machines than hand built as they make no mistakes and do a better job.
The w220S Class of the era is a fine car and probably safer. The sensible 320cdi exists alongside the s500 both readily available here. Mercedes- where every seat is first class versus VW -the peoples car !

Big Nasty

Matt Simis wrote: »

Well I had an S8 yes, sold it. It was also great, but the Phaeton is better spec'ed and a different chassis (its a super rigid steel version of the Aluminium bodied Audi). Different sides of the same coin I guess.

The Audi was a better drivers car, the Phaeton a more comfortable and "self assured" type of affair. Also there is the matter of the price of S8's, the 2006 D3 model (the D2 is much older and not a fair comparison) is £15k plus.

And bought a V12 yes!

Yeah but to be fair the D2 you had was early 90's tech while the Phaeton was nearly 10 years later. Incidentally I very nearly bought a W12 D2 Quattro when I was in Belgium but chickened out in the end.

CianRyan

I'd have one if I could afford to have on, not even as something blisteringly fast, I'd just enjoy the luxury and the understated prestige.

Matt Simis

lomb wrote: »

Makes no sense to me at all at that level and I like VWs.

You dont think its interesting you could get whats 90% of a Bentley today for as low as £3000!? Or you mean new? I agree new they would be bad bet financially, but used man, used.

lomb wrote: »

The A8 at least can be differentiated and quite frankly I prefer my cars built by machines than hand built as they make no mistakes and do a better job.
The w220S Class of the era is a fine car and probably safer.

Where is that coming form?!
I doubt the Merc is safer, given best in class safety and absurd torsional rigidity were some of Piechs (in)famous "impossible design goals" for the Phaeton project.

On hand built vs machine built, look up the VW glass "factory". When I say its handbuilt there, its not actually built in the glass factory, which is more an engineering studio. Its made in parts by precision machines then "assembled by hand". Each engineer is assigned 1 car for the day or something mental, so its his name on the line (literally). And its nor like they were overworked, the "factory" was designed to output 20k cars a year but only produced 26k cars in the first 4 years. So VW start building the Flying Spur there too to pick up the extra orders the guys in Crewe couldnt handle (as the Bentley was a huge success and the home grown car wasnt!).

If you mean reliability.. well the W220 has its own records for unparalleled unreliability. Mercs for me are classic or absurd power. The limo types (or baby types) just dont really stand out as anything other than "I own a Merc".

Big Nasty

CianRyan wrote: »

I'd have one if I could afford to have on, not even as something blisteringly fast, I'd just enjoy the luxury and the understated prestige.

Friend of mine will be putting his Honda Legend up for sale in the next few days with test and less than 60k documented miles for under €1k - buy that.

Actually don't.

CianRyan

MCMLXXV wrote: »

Friend of mine will be putting his Honda Legend up for sale in the next few days with test and less than 60k documented miles for under €1k - buy that.

Actually don't.

Don't bloody tempt me!
My GF would absolutely kill me if I bought a new car right now.

Marcusm

MCMLXXV wrote: »

Friend of mine will be putting his Honda Legend up for sale in the next few days with test and less than 60k documented miles for under €1k - buy that.

Actually don't.

Isn't that really comparing scrag end with a chateaubriand?

Big Nasty

Marcusm wrote: »

Isn't that really comparing scrag end with a chateaubriand?

Totally yeah, but when you've champagne tastes and a beer income.....;)

unkel

MCMLXXV wrote: »

Totally yeah, but when you've champagne tastes and a beer income.....;)

You'd buy a Phaeton. Not a Legend

CianRyan

But a Phaeton over here will set you back 8 times as much as a legend.

Edit: I'm going to start saving for an LS400 in March, midshelf wine for beer money.

PrettyBoy

I remember when these were first around, my dad was collecting a new car at the MSL offices and the first Irish Phaeton was parked in front of the building, we had a quick look at it and my dad asked how much it was. I remember the guy telling him "They're looking for €100k for them" - neither my dad or myself could believe it.

Good car for the money now though.

Top Dog

Its a car that I really want to like, but I just can't get past that ugly ugly ass. From the front it looks understated classy, has a nice side profile too ... but it looks like they ran out of enthusiasm for the project when it came to the back end.

Saw one in Cork a couple of weeks ago and even in the metal I hated the rear. I know that when you're sitting in it you can't see it, but if you ever glance out the window at your car on occasion - you just can't miss it

dgt

Any major issues with the V10?

Barry Barry

MCMLXXV wrote: »

Friend of mine will be putting his Honda Legend up for sale in the next few days with test and less than 60k documented miles for under €1k - buy that.

Actually don't.

Oh now that is a fine car, and at that price! I'd nearly buy it if I didn't just buy my 106

Actually, the current model Legend seem to go cheap these days in the UK. Could be worth a look if you wanted something different but not a Phaeton,

http://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/201243490007422/sort/default/usedcars/model/legend/make/honda/page/2?logcode=p

http://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/201233482031349/sort/default/usedcars/model/legend/make/honda/page/2?logcode=p

Wonder how many of these are in Ireland?

I know it can't be compared to a Phaeton but again, if you want something different this is the thing to go for!

homer90

Passat ............... PFT :pac:





Used buy of the decade ?

Unfortunately not in NZ, currently 1 listed on the donedeal equivalent, 2006 V6 TDi for a shade under 30k euro.

I would have a phaeton over anything else in that sector .

peasant

Most of you guys are missing the point.

The Pheaton was never meant to seriously compete with the 7 series or S class in terms of sales volume. Even VW themselves knew that they could never do that.

The Pheaton (like the Bugatti Veyron) is one of Ferdinand Piech's self indulgcences. Both cars were never really expected to be economically viable by themselves, instead they are a showcase of engineering, a poke in the eye of the supposedly top car makers to show them that VW can do one better.

AFAIK, to this day every Phaeton sold still costs the company money, but the internal trickle-down in engineering capabilities and more importantly the perceived lift in the eye of the public as far as the quality image of VW is concerned, must have been worth the investment.

If nothing else, the fact that every Passt owner now claims that " actually they're driving a small Pheaton" was probably worth the whole excercise

wonski

Matt Simis wrote: »

Personally I cant stand the look of the Flying Spur. The Continential GT yes, but the FS looks like you boxified a Phaeton. Granted people say the Phaeton looks like a Passat (which is incorrect as the Phaeton was out before the Passat of this gen, its the Passat that looks like a small, cheap Phaeton) but taking a step back.. thats not such a bad thing as the Passat isnt ugly. Common yes, but its not an unattractive car. And a not so stand out car solves the problem for people in "bad neighbourhoods" that want something nice but are afraid of theft, vandalism etc.


Now obviously Im slightly (alot) biased as I already owned a Phaeton, but in 3-dimensions it looks a lot less like a Passat. Related yes, but it has to be, its the flagship of the lineup. Here was my one; colour coded lower bumpers, lower bumper chrome trim from 2007 facelift, tinted and lowered and on 20" Audi S8 wheels:



No Passat has flared arches (again in 3d, in the metal very impressive), that Nissan GTR style boot/lights or the chunky but sleek panel fit and "4 door coupe" shape (ok the Passat CC does some of these too!). Also Phaetons have 8 to 11 layers of paint!

I didn't mean that i would like it to look like a supercar, and when i think more about this, that would be nice to have v10 hidden under something looking so "normal". I actually trust your judgement, and don't think it biased a lot - since you owned one you have an idea of how good the car is, and i trust you wouldn't spend serious money if you didn't believe it was worth it.
I sometimes regret i moved from UK, given what 3.5k could buy (not to mention motor tax differences). Wouldn't pay over 8k here for 04 model.
But it is nice to see how cars, that were well outside of budget and reach of regular driver, are getting cheaper and cheaper every year.
Imagine what the roads will look like in 10 years time...

Mr Benevolent

I've done a bit of research into the Phaeton and it really is a fantastic car. In four years I've seen one three times, and it's a fair possibility that it's the same car each time. Unfortunately there are very few for sale in Ireland, by dealer or privately. I doubt I'd ever go for one, but to someone with an eye for true luxury and handy with the spanners a Phaeton would be a gold plated bargain.

coolisin

It's a car I would understand why I loved the madness of the build, the demands, apparently, out of the CEO at the time, possible of 200 mph, while 200c outside maintain a temp of 20c inside the car!
It's a great example of engineering.

But I know my other half wouldn't like it because all she could see was the badge.

But to so many people they would think you've put a body kit on a passat.

Great post Matt, and to have owned one and not speculating makes it easier to read.
Thanks.

Marcusm

Taking Matt's advice on models, I have looked at the cost of bringing a 5.0 V10 TDI into Ireland from the UK. using a late 2004 (54 reg) model at £7,990 and 89,000 miles available on Autotrader, the VRT is an astonishingly LOW EUR2,081 as the OMSP is assessed at EUR5,781 (95% depreciation from EUR121,7909 list).

Unfortunately, the online calculator can't do a 4.2 V8 petrol!

Matt Simis

Marcusm wrote: »

Taking Matt's advice on models, I have looked at the cost of bringing a 5.0 V10 TDI into Ireland from the UK. using a late 2004 (54 reg) model at £7,990 and 89,000 miles available on Autotrader, the VRT is an astonishingly LOW EUR2,081 as the OMSP is assessed at EUR5,781 (95% depreciation from EUR121,7909 list).

Unfortunately, the online calculator can't do a 4.2 V8 petrol!

I checked the VRT on a few models and all are low, but that v10tdi VRT quote is excellent. I paid nearly 2k on the 1987 560sec VRT for comparison?!

I wonder of they would add the V8 to the list on request, it should be cheaper again..

Voodoomelon

Any word on reliability on the Phaeton? Due to the very few models out there and extremely limited online following, could these be the used buys of the decade or the ticking time bombs of the decade?

beaner88

I like the idea of them but they were all slower and less fuel efficient in comparison to similar engined A8s, 7s or S classes.

beaner88

LIGHTNING wrote: »

Its a luxobarge its not designed to be doing laps around the ring!

What a daft thing to say. Big luxury cars should be quick in a straight line. And why piss away fuel when there is no need? The car is too heavy.

http://www.parkers.co.uk/cars/reviews/facts-and-figures/volkswagen/phaeton/saloon-2003/

MugMugs

beaner88 wrote: »

. And why piss away fuel when there is no need?

Because you can/want to?

Which part of luxobarge do you not get?

beaner88

Actually the slowest in the range will 60mph in 9.4s, worse than my old PD Passat. The standard 3L V6 diesel is 145mph and is well off the pace of A8 with the same engine. The 4.2 diesel also trounces the 5 litre V10.

I didn't know there were so many fans of cars going slower and drinking more fuel on this board.

wonski

Given the size and weight of the car, what did you expect? You don't take Phaeton for racing purposes, do you?
Actually the least discussed part of the discussion was performance, as OP already explained engine options at the start of the thread, and none of us expected this will drive as fast as Mercedes S-class AMG.

beaner88

I'd have expected it to drive as fast as cars which are the same size and use the same engines given who much it was supposedly over-engineered.

You don't take a Rolls Royce on a race track so then buyers should be happy with 0-60 in 10s? Please stop arguing that same illogical point. Why did Audi engineer the A8 with an aluminium shell if all these buyers of luxobarges (3 grand worth of car that they might afford) were so unconcerned with performance or efficiency?
The car is also considerably narrower than the A8.

Marcusm

Voodoomelon wrote: »

Any word on reliability on the Phaeton? Due to the very few models out there and extremely limited online following, could these be the used buys of the decade or the ticking time bombs of the decade?

THere seem to be few with less than 100,000 miles for sale; I'd suspect that many commentators would have looked to jump on any weakness in the VW line. I suspect there are few major issues or common faults but I bet none of them are cheap to fix.

Marcusm

beaner88 wrote: »

Actually the slowest in the range will 60mph in 9.4s, worse than my old PD Passat. The standard 3L V6 diesel is 145mph and is well off the pace of A8 with the same engine. The 4.2 diesel also trounces the 5 litre V10.

I didn't know there were so many fans of cars going slower and drinking more fuel on this board.

I thought the point was that the Phaeton had a very rigid steel construction to promote the "luxury" feel as opposed to a lightweight aluminium Audi which is for vigorous driving. If they had equal performance, one of them would be pointless.

sob1467

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_JOtQ3m0kUY

Interesting review of the Phaeton by fifth gear done in 2004.

Lovely car but the fuel consumption would put me of it.

tossy

I think people are seeing a volkswagen and scratching their heads wondering why it can't get 50mpg

It's a large engine luxory car,fuel consumption isn't a consideration with these,same goes for any big BMW,Merc or Audi.

If the fact fuel consumption generally goes down as you go up shocks you then you might want to sit down when you that the V10 for instance will require 13 litres of oil every service which you would want to be doing at every 5k on a high miler.

I love when Irish motor-nomics are applied to proper cars "Wha??? Shes a V10 shure the tax id kill ya and shure you can only go 120 kph same as any other car"

daRobot

Beautiful cars. I was lucky enough to have a drive in Matt's one a few years ago.

That particular one, with the s8 wheels, was the Russian mafia style car of the decade. Amazing.

That said, it's the V8 petrol i'd be going for over the v10, and lpg'ing it. The V10 seems to be reliable enough, although there are a few documented engine failures on them, but the petrol is a much safer bet. The vwvortex forum online has a good bit of info on them.