Should Obama kill Bashar Assad?

teddy_irish

I received recently a warning from the moderators of this forum because I'm not obeying the rules of the forum. I was wondering... what could be the problem of showing this documentary and what makes it so rude to the moderators. When I'd like to backup my opinion with some more info from a world media - you call this is an infraction!?!? What kind of rules could that be? When you point to some media that means the information showed in this media is contributing to your point of view. Unless... it's just a truth which is not a good one to specific people. Or a group. But it's not an offence. Not at all. It was just a documentary of the russian tv channell Rossia 24. And it was deleted. Then what about this:
US Administration Decides to Abandon ‘Free Syrian Army’
Will I be deleted again with another warning? That place is just a forum where people are exchanging information, links and videos with pros and cons regarding to a particular subject. This is not the FIRST time when this is happening to me. And it happens only when I am posting about the terrorists in Syria.

SoulandForm

teddy_irish wrote: »

Then what about this:
US Administration Decides to Abandon ‘Free Syrian Army’
Will I be deleted again with another warning? That place is just a forum where people are exchanging information, links and videos with pros and cons regarding to a particular subject. This is not the FIRST time when this is happening to me. And it happens only when I am posting about the terrorists in Syria.

Very interesting link mate- thanks for that!

Jonny7

teddy_irish wrote: »

I received recently a warning from the moderators of this forum because I'm not obeying the rules of the forum. I was wondering... what could be the problem of showing this documentary and what makes it so rude to the moderators. When I'd like to backup my opinion with some more info from a world media - you call this is an infraction!?!? What kind of rules could that be? When you point to some media that means the information showed in this media is contributing to your point of view. Unless... it's just a truth which is not a good one to specific people. Or a group. But it's not an offence. Not at all. It was just a documentary of the russian tv channell Rossia 24. And it was deleted. Then what about this:
US Administration Decides to Abandon ‘Free Syrian Army’
Will I be deleted again with another warning? That place is just a forum where people are exchanging information, links and videos with pros and cons regarding to a particular subject. This is not the FIRST time when this is happening to me. And it happens only when I am posting about the terrorists in Syria.

Firstly the story is not true and secondly it's pro-Assad propaganda.

SoulandForm

Jonny7 wrote: »

Firstly the story is not true and secondly it's pro-Assad propaganda.

http://nsnbc.me/2012/05/28/bbc-illegally-uses-image-of-iraqi-victims-the-usnato-un-demonization-propaganda-against-syrian-government-further-intensify/

You are very quick to dismiss it as pro-Assad propaganda.

There has been plenty of propaganda on the mainstream western media though against the Syrian government.

Look at what happened in Libya once the foreign backed fundamentalists took over.

As a Christian Syria holds a special place in my heart given that it was there that Christians first started to be called Christians. The victory of the FSA will certainly mean the destruction of the ancient Christian community in that country. That is why I support the Syrian government 100 per cent in its war against the terrorists.

Jonny7

SoulandForm wrote: »

http://nsnbc.me/2012/05/28/bbc-illegally-uses-image-of-iraqi-victims-the-usnato-un-demonization-propaganda-against-syrian-government-further-intensify/

You are very quick to dismiss it as pro-Assad propaganda.

There has been plenty of propaganda on the mainstream western media though against the Syrian government.

Look at what happened in Libya once the foreign backed fundamentalists took over.

As a Christian Syria holds a special place in my heart given that it was there that Christians first started to be called Christians. The victory of the FSA will certainly mean the destruction of the ancient Christian community in that country. That is why I support the Syrian government 100 per cent in its war against the terrorists.

You can believe what you want, the story isn't true, unless you care to refute that

SoulandForm

Jonny7 wrote: »

You can believe what you want, the story isn't true, unless you care to refute that

So you simply dismiss everything that goes against the FSA and happily accept all propaganda against Assad?

Jonny7

I've read the "story", it's propaganda, an outright lie. You know.. the very thing you're trying to preach about.

Anyway you're more than welcome to show it's true although I'm not gonna hold my breath on that one.

SoulandForm

Jonny7 wrote: »

I've read the "story", it's propaganda, an outright lie. You know.. the very thing you're trying to preach about.

Anyway you're more than welcome to show it's true although I'm not gonna hold my breath on that one.

Do you have any proof its an absolute lie?

Jonny7

SoulandForm wrote: »

Do you have any proof its an absolute lie?

Twice in one day..

SoulandForm

Jonny7 wrote: »

Twice in one day..

For someone who sucks up the propaganda presented by the mainstream media that is laughable. The BBC has been exposed as lying on the issue of Syria.

Jonny7

SoulandForm wrote: »

For someone who sucks up the propaganda presented by the mainstream media that is laughable.

And that assumption is based on?

If you are already acquainted with me under another name, please do share

teddy_irish

Let's just leave the propaganda and have a look at the real picture. Shall we?
“SEA Leaks” Coming Soon

‎”SEA | Leaks” is an operation carried out by the Syrian Electronic Army to expose the countries that tried to destroy Syria

This operation included penetration of most ministry’s mail systems of said nations… including the Ministries of Defense and Defense Industries
The operation also included hacking of the League of Arab States mail system and the Ministries of Foreign Affairs and the Ministry of Interior, and the Amiri Diwan for some countries…
The most important leaked documents will be published in the form of a television series.
All of the leaked E-mail and documents will be published on the Leaks website that belongs to the Syrian Electronic Army | http://leaks.syrian-es.org/ - the countdown clock is ticking on the website - check it out.

Jonny7

teddy_irish wrote: »

Let's just leave the propaganda and have a look at the real picture. Shall we?

Teddy, you're just posting from the same site again. It doesn't even hide the fact that it's propaganda

teddy_irish

Jonny7 wrote: »

Teddy, you're just posting from the same site again. It doesn't even hide the fact that it's propaganda

With all my respect to your reply: everyone has friends. Even the enemy. Even Syria. The website "Friends of Syria" is just one place among many others where people are opposing the pressure from the mainstream media. How do you know which is telling the truth and how do you put qualifications about who is manipulating and who is Mr. Clean? BBC and CNN for example claim their versions and you are trusting them without to have in your hands the proof they say they have. They just write about what they claim. And that's it. I think that most of the people choose a side because that's the way they feel. But this is not because of the things they know. There is a monster pressure from the media over the population and it obviously works. If you don't like some information this is not turning it into a lie. Maybe you prefer to read more comfortable things and thruths... I read everything. And the more I read the more I am getting suspicious that somebody is hiding the thruth. But this is not me.

Jonny7

Off you go then

www.bbc.co.uk/news
www.guardian.co.uk
www.spiegel.de/international/
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/

Can you highlight the specific lies and misreporting.. with evidence, in regards the Syrian situation, from let's say the last week.

I'm not claiming the information is 100% accurate, but then again, I don't see many media outlets that are, they constantly add disclaimers that the information is from a particular source, e.g. Syrian state television, or the rebels or the SOHOR.

"Friends of Syria" on the other hand is not a news site, it is not subject to any accountability, any watchdogs, etc, they can write what they want.

teddy_irish

Jonny7 wrote: »

Off you go then

www.bbc.co.uk/news
www.guardian.co.uk
www.spiegel.de/international/
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/

Can you highlight the specific lies and misreporting.. with evidence, in regards the Syrian situation, from let's say the last week.

I'm not claiming the information is 100% accurate, but then again, I don't see many media outlets that are, they constantly add disclaimers that the information is from a particular source, e.g. Syrian state television, or the rebels or the SOHOR.

"Friends of Syria" on the other hand is not a news site, it is not subject to any accountability, any watchdogs, etc, they can write what they want.

You just gave me the start pages of the mainstream media. But there is a news from today which I will wait your favoirite media to publish it too:
Syria Captures Zawahiri’s Brother in Daraa: Report

Be like Nutella

I wouldn't bother Johnny.... could end up doing a lot of work and minds won't change. It's probably good enough for most who visit this forum to say that although mainstream media has its faults, and it does, the idea that Assad has been painted in a purposefully poor light (ya know... having killed tens of thousands of his own people blatantly) as part of some big conspiracy to bring about the downfall of Syria and in fact Assad is a good lad and doing nothing wrong there at all.... is just not a reasonable position. If this thing turns out to be a massive conspiracy as Teddy is saying then I'll ya know... eat my hat...or whatever it is ya do when all logic is turned upside down i one go.

Get your own thread Teddy... I started this unreasonable thread... get your own unreasonable thread ; )... actually seriously you should actually start a thread over in the CT forum on this and get an argument going if it means that much to ya... coz then you'll have to break out all the proof that the whole thing is a hoax by the west against Syria involving all the mainstream media etc etc... I'd be surprised if you can produce any proof... but if it looks good I'll certainly prick my ears up and have a look at it... as mental as it sounds.

clairefontaine

Ok to get back to the original question, conspiracy theories parked for the time being, Im not so sure that getting rid of Assad would accomplish. First of all are you talking assassination or drone strike?

Also, whenever the US gets involved in the Middle East, everyone starts complaining about western interference, etc etc. The US has war fatigue and has no money to fight other people's battles, and then get a ton of grief from other nations over it.

My second opposition to US involvement, is that the US never seems to have a decent plan. They go in, think it will all be fast, and meanwhile ten years later the battle is still raging with no plans on how to rebuild and it's just a mess. Given that every tom, dick and harry has joined this opposition force, there is nothing to say that the US wont face a deeper enemy should Assad and his regime go.

Of all the dictators you listed, they were all direct threats to the US. Is Assad a direct threat? Until, like Castro, he points missiles at the US, the US is not going to kill him, and why does everyone expect the US to put its neck on the line? Why not ask Enda to go kill him.

Be like Nutella

actually I can't disagree with much of that... but the thing is I just see this Assad gang continuing to kill more and more people every day and week and month until there's 100,000... 150,000 dead.... and that is not something that should be acceptable to an Intl Community which has the physical capsity to stop it.... intervene... on some level...

-Give Assad a deadline to 'give it up'
-Impose No Fly Zone by whatever means
-Secure the chem weapons
-Arrest everyone for war crimes that be needin arrestin
-Find some reasonable people to deal with
-do your best to stop weapons gettin into AQ or Jihadist group hands
-Roll the dice, basically give them a chance
-help them set up or try to set up a democracy..
-try and keep the institutions that remotely work intact
-Get a kitty goin to rebuild the gaf
-Secure oil deals etc to get some money goin in the right direction
-ask the new crowd what you can do to help
-then get your troops out of dodge before you fuk it up like you did in Iraq

and to be honest all that could be a load of crap I don't have the answers I just think the US and Obama does NOT want to watch another Rwanda unfold and do nothing because history will only forget a LIMITED number of genocides under America's watch!

It took 4 Stealth bombers and 72 hours, essentially, to stop Milosevic

Clinton could've intervened in Rwanda and chose not to and 1 million people died in 3 months and he says it is his greatest regret of his life.

Most Syrians want out from under Assad.... some of them stood up and fought for that... the rest chose not to or can't or are scared or would be massacred if they did. Assad firmly believes that the chaos of Syria without an Assad at the helm is worth massacring a few hundred thousand Syrians. He is facing life in jail right now already. He now only sees one end to this and that is all out genocide and the international community rubs its thumbs while a desperate man plays the numbers game and by attrition kills 5000 Syrians (not all of them fuking terrorists by the way its mostly old people, kids, women, bloody civilians) per month every month since and including last July... 5000/5000/5000/5000/5000/5000... and counting. He knows that the number he kills every day with Barrel bombs fuilled with nails and Gatling guns from helicopter gun ships and missiles fires at gas stations and bakery queues has not 'prompted' the Intl community to jump in and kick his evil ass yet. This is all a game of numbers. Here's a few important ones to consider.

1. 200,000 - is 200,000 massacred Syrian civilians enough to promt Obama to do something.
2. 296 - That's how many congressmen voted YES to Iraq in 2003... and that was based on maaaaaaajor bullsh1t - this is real and happening on CNN right in front of their eyes.
3 3000-7000 Libyans died and we all jumped in there over 50 cal machine guns being used on the streets - There's between 45-55 thousand dead in Syria in the last 22 months, 30,000 in the last 5 months alone....this MF is willing to carpet bomb entire areas of housing - wait and see.... he feels he has no other fate.

His choice is binary... he dies for what he believes in, an ordered Syria which his father and himself (by chance he was never meant to lead - it was to his brother but he died in a feckin car accident and Assad who was in London at the time training to be a feckin eye doctor got the call - few years later he's running the show with absolutely no experience in government whatsoever )... he dies for that or... he's a flip of a coin away from execution by whoever/whatever replaces his lot... or life in jail courtesy of the Hague.

TBH as I've mentioned a few times the thread title was just to focus minds here.... I could've just said Should Obama get into Syria and do whatever is necessary to stop Assad in his increasing massacre of Syrians including everything up to taking him out if necessary.... which is a ploy which the US has employed to attempted to employ in other situations many many times before eg. Iraq - Saddam.. which incidentally didn't work but you get the drift.

Because I KNOW FOR CERTAIN from the way I read this thing that Assad's crowd (who ALLL by the way are responsible and in the same shoes as him less they defect, which many have and many have died trying and many rot in tortuous jails for thinking about trying)... because I know all these dudes are stuck between a fate of jail/execution/attempted defection/attempted escape/Hague courtrooms for 10 years/or status quo for as long as they can hold out and fuk the 100,000 that need to die in the mean time - that is exactly what they will do.

This thing is an out of control locomotive and it's left the station and the only way to stop it is to stop it...in its tracks... and let the chips fall where they land.

It's easier to argue about doing nothing right up to the day when he kills 25,000 in some bombing or chem weapon attack or slaughters an entire Crowd in Damascus which is where this all ends... and then do something... when it's too late.

The US CANNOT allow that to happen... they will be blamed by the Syrians afterwards and by us all at home watching it on sky news. The US cannot absorb that blow internationally. So it's gona come down to the wire. I'm merely saying if I were Obama I would sell the humanitarian disaster of it to Americans and raise a posse and do something righteous and fuk the IR bullsh1t we're all talking about here - if Assad is not stopped hes not stopped that's all that will matter in history. It's very easy to argue that the aftermath may result in civil war and that minority extreme caliphate seeking Islamists will grab for power with or without mandate and that terrorist attacks will be common as these groups try and consolidate power and that there's no natural resources to be invading about anyway or that Russia wont vote for it or China.... who gives a monkeys... WHEN not IF... WHEN Assad massacres 100,000 THE INTL COMMUNITY WILL 100% 'HAVE' TO DO IT ANYWAY, NO MATTER WHAT THE POTENTIAL CONSEQUENCES!!!

clairefontaine

Honestly, I see what you are saying, but get the EU to do it. The US is in alot of financial trouble, does not have the military man power or resources to get involved in every troubled hot spot.

It does not have a post ww2 economy like it once did, and its people are sick of rescuing the world and then getting a load of criticism and abuse for it by the rest of the world. If the US sends manpower on the ground, it will not be appreciated by local opposition and will only create more enemies for the US. It is not in American interest to do this, America has enough problems as it is.

The west has to stop this dependency on the US to put out every fire. Let the EU build up its military and its defence budget and start spending its money and spilling their sons' and brothers' blood to sort out the Middle East. Let the beloved UN sort it out, you know that institution that Europeans all want to have moral approval from before anything gets done.

I used to hear jokes about foreign policy along the lines of arm everyone in the Middle East, let them kill each other and then make friends with the winner. I am so sick of this tiny part of the world causing so much trouble for everyone.

Be like Nutella

clairefontaine wrote: »

I am so sick of this tiny part of the world causing so much trouble for everyone.

well Claire the west has been meddling in the Mid East for a long time and it's clearly been about the oil as you know so you can't just view the Mid East on its own and hate it... if you hate it then you hate what the west has done to it and you hate our absolute dependence on oil.

About the EU jumping in instead of the US. I agree actually, that would essentially mean France and Britain obviously but they could do it. It would be a lot easier for the US though as they have so many assets in the mid east already and their entire war machine out there is just better equipped and set up for an operation like this. Basically they know how to do it and they're virtually locked and loaded as it is right now.

About the US putting out every fire, well, that's a complicated one and ranges from the heroics of WW2 to the unforgivable decision not to intervene in Rwanda to the utter lies of Iraq 2 to the late entry into Kosovo to the sit back and watch a massacre unfold in Syria.... so I'm not so sure its healthy to view the US as the worlds trustworthy firemen... history tells a different story... however they have done it on a number of occasions and I always believed in the overly simplistic mantra 'Evil happens when good people do nothing'.... I wouldn't mind but American media and movies and general position tell us constantly that 'they' are such a power for good in the world and spread freedom and democracy out of the good of their heroic hearts : ).... which is far too sickeningly sweet to be true as we both know.

I would recommend you read a highly respected book called "A Problem from Hell' America and the age of genocide (by Pulitzer prize winning journalist/author/historian Samantha Power)

clairefontaine

Be like Nutella wrote: »

well Claire the west has been meddling in the Mid East for a long time and it's clearly been about the oil as you know so you can't just view the Mid East on its own and hate it... if you hate it then you hate what the west has done to it and you hate our absolute dependence on oil.

About the EU jumping in instead of the US. I agree actually, that would essentially mean France and Britain obviously but they could do it. It would be a lot easier for the US though as they have so many assets in the mid east already and their entire war machine out there is just better equipped and set up for an operation like this. Basically they know how to do it and they're virtually locked and loaded as it is right now.

About the US putting out every fire, well, that's a complicated one and ranges from the heroics of WW2 to the unforgivable decision not to intervene in Rwanda to the utter lies of Iraq 2 to the late entry into Kosovo to the sit back and watch a massacre unfold in Syria.... so I'm not so sure its healthy to view the US as the worlds trustworthy firemen... history tells a different story... however they have done it on a number of occasions and I always believed in the overly simplistic mantra 'Evil happens when good people do nothing'.... I wouldn't mind but American media and movies and general position is that they are such a power for good in the world and spread freedom and democracy out of the good of their heroic hearts : ).... which is far too sickeningly sweet to be true as we both know.

I would recommend you read a highly respected book called "A Problem from Hell' America and the age of genocide (by Pulitzer prize winning journalist/author/historian Samantha Power)

I would agree with you about the oil dependency, but you cant pin all the mid east troubles on the US.

I am as sick and tired of the American heroic model as you probably are but for more complicated reasons than what you state. Yes they always yadda yadda on about WW2 and chances are we would all still be speaking German had they not pulled in eventually, and it is glamourised in the US and often used to validate further global nation building. [On the other hand, when I see them wanting to have more armed guards at schools etc, I feel, "You fought the Nazis for this?!!" Someone posted a Michael Moore rant and the thread was closed. I read the rant and I agree with everything he said and I don't normally agree with Michael Moore about much but I believe the US military is a sucker's nightmare, sucking in young boys to fight wars that make a lot of money for old men who don't give a crap about them. Every memorial day the tv screens are filled with glorious war movies and flags flying referring to our "heroes." They are not heroes, they are victims and I wish the rhetoric would change, but I know it wont, because there is money in war for certain parties. If I had an adult child who told me s/he was going to join the military, I would quote PT Barnum to him/her "There is a sucker born every minute" and then beg him or her not to be such a moron/victim of a con job.

I apologise for the digression but it is part of a wider context for how I feel about US military intervention at every drop of the hat to the extent that I feel it would be better for the US if it went back to its isolationism as the founding fathers advised, stayed out of it and stopped nation building, but we both know that is never going to happen .

Europe has had a long history with the middle east, geographically they are closer, and they are just better at dealing with this, and really it's their turn. Let them clean it up rather than sit back and watch it. It's their turn.

SoulandForm

Problem is mate that after the lies about Weapons of Mass Destruction in Iraq following the lies about the baby incubators in the first Gulf war its hard not to be scepticial about the mainstream media. We have seen what happened in Libya when similar forces to these rebels took over.

Jonny7 wrote: »

Off you go then

www.bbc.co.uk/news
www.guardian.co.uk
www.spiegel.de/international/
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/

Can you highlight the specific lies and misreporting.. with evidence, in regards the Syrian situation, from let's say the last week.

I'm not claiming the information is 100% accurate, but then again, I don't see many media outlets that are, they constantly add disclaimers that the information is from a particular source, e.g. Syrian state television, or the rebels or the SOHOR.

"Friends of Syria" on the other hand is not a news site, it is not subject to any accountability, any watchdogs, etc, they can write what they want.

clairefontaine

SoulandForm wrote: »

Problem is mate that after the lies about Weapons of Mass Destruction in Iraq following the lies about the baby incubators in the first Gulf war its hard not to be scepticial about the mainstream media. We have seen what happened in Libya when similar forces to these rebels took over.

The WMDs are still a mystery. . Everyone was duped. Theory is they got moved to guess where....

http://www.theatlanticwire.com/global/2012/07/did-syria-receive-its-chemical-weapons-saddam/55142/

and

http://news.yahoo.com/uk-experts-help-iraq-destroy-chemical-residues-144204378.html

That's what makes these things so impossible to judge- the information is fluid, unreliable, and changes quickly.

Jonny7

SoulandForm wrote: »

Problem is mate that after the lies about Weapons of Mass Destruction in Iraq

The Bush administration lied, the media reported it. Kinda like the way they reported Bill Clinton "not having sexual relations" with that woman.

following the lies about the baby incubators in the first Gulf war its hard not to be scepticial about the mainstream media. We have seen what happened in Libya when similar forces to these rebels took over.

I have no idea what you are talking about, unless you somehow think that thousands of outlets from Finland to Canada to Singapore are all universally controlled. If they are, show us how it's done.

Be like Nutella

"...Surveillance satellites in late November showed signs that sarin precursor materials were being combined and loaded into aerial munitions for a possible airstrike. After Israel took this information to the United States, President Obama publicly threatened that Assad would be "held accountable" for any chemical weapons use against the opposition forces that since 2011 have fought to topple his regime..."

http://www.nti.rsvp1.com/gsn/article/intl-outcry-over-feared-syrian-chemical-strike-seen-avert-nov-crisis/?mgh=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.nti.org&mgf=1

I never thought the Chem attack was this real or so close. Unless this is propaganda type bull**** which it could well be, by either the writer or org themselves, or by a wider state dept effort to play some games with Assad in the news.... the point being to show people that the US has flexed muscle at Assad and he has reacted and stood down a bit. On the other hand if its real then holy fuk the guy was going to do some chem attacks with fukin Sarin!!!!! in which case my case rests - he's gotta be toppled soon! Best of bad options is the one which costs 50,000 less dead Syrian civilians!

clairefontaine

Well if he is going to be toppled it will have to be from other people. Until he aims one at the US, for the US to carry out political assassination is an act of terror legally speaking.


I would love to know what "held accountable" means.

Be like Nutella

.....ok you're right in the context of just taking Assad out right now with a strike - yes unrealistic and an act of terror I agree.... I'd still do it if the chance arose but that's me and the fact I'm convinced even more so since his speech on Sunday that HE WILL turn large weapons on his own people and the victims will be his Syrian population we could easily see 100,000 more people die before he's toppled. And yes it will require outside Intl forces... which are active already to a degree. Not to enough of a degree is my point ...and my problem.

A no fly zone is absolutely required now and it will take US assistance to achieve that, that is a fact IMO.

Securing those Chemical stockpiles is a necessity now and that will also require US/UK/French assistance.

The essential action is:
After they do all of this... and I feel they will have to WHEN he turns up the massacre exponentially... What actions can be taken TO PAUSE (at least...) the almost guaranteed fight for power which will occur straight after his fall ?
Can an outside body come in and sit as many groups involved down as possible and marginalize the rest to a sufficient degree to produce a 'path' towards a new government? I don't know, it's easy to say NO absolutely not because of X,Y,Z, but that is defeatist and serves no purpose, even if it is likely. That position or opinion still doesn't change the fact he WILL massacre at greatly increased levels ...and the US/UK/FRANCE/GULF PARTNERS WILL HAVE TO STEP IN ON SOME LEVEL AND END HIS LEADERSHIP TO PREVENT THAT GENOCIDE.

The likelihood is that Turkey and Saudi Arabia IMO will use their Air Forces to maintain a No Fly Zone once air defenses are suppressed which will require US/UK/French help initially. There will need to be a coming together of countries in a partnership to deal with the humanitarian crisis which has now reached tipping point and chaos in places like Jordan with 500,000 dislocated people and groups causing trouble as well in neighboring countries.

The knock on effects are hitting Lebanon and Jordan and Turkey and creating a very serious Kurdish hmmm problem is not the right word... let's call it a Kurdish issue.... in Northern Iraq, Turkey and Syria. This is likely to result in a vague form of semi autonomous state being formed in Syria between Assad and the future-post-Assad leadership. There's a lot of balls in the air WHEN ASSAD IS TOPPLED but all of that is crystal ball bullsh1t, for now, the main thing is that Assad is not willing to step down and has said so in no uncertain terms. His speech on Sunday was completely disconnected (by ALL expert accounts) to reality and his intention is 100% to dig in and fight using all the power he has at his disposal... which for safety purposes SHOULD NOT in peoples heads EXCLUDE his Chem weapons. From what I understand he has actually used chem weapons already to a very small degree but that will need further clarification and is not important as it didn't kill anyone in the instances reported on which I refer to here.

The feeling is that within 72 hours a No Fly Zone could be established. That is the outside estimate as reported think tanks and journalists and analysts right now. This says to me that, although he has a functional state military at his disposal, his actual ability to withstand a foreign NFZ enforcement is almost non existent, hence the Intl Community MAY IN FACT BE WILLING TO RISK THEIR PEOPLE TRYING TO EXECUTE SUCH AN INTERVENTION WHICH IS AN IMPORTANT DEDUCTION.

Once a NFZ was established, the disparate Rebel forces would be encouraged by the Intl community to come together in as strong an alliance as possible and push for Damascus amid the massacre Assad will try and inflict. And depending on how severe that massacre proves to be (because he can do anything he wants really when you think about it when push comes to shove and he's finally cornered with a NFZ in place he will turn to heavy weapons and artillery and roll out against these forces in great number and attempt to crush them)... so depending on how Assad uses his forces, and how many of them remain on side and don't defect, then you could see a boots on the ground intervention led by the US being voted on in Congress! (I'm talking if he literally begins to annihilate his own people en masse as the FSA roll into Damascus) but with the absolute assurance from Obama's joint chiefs that their role will be to suppress Assads forces and give them every opportunity to defect along the way OR be accountable for their actions after the dust settles.
This moment is assured to come at some point in my opinion. At this point his soldiers still loyal to him will feel they have no choice but to imbed themselves within the Damascus population where they are right now so as to use the Syrians as a shield against International force missile strikes which will attempt to quickly destroy their heavy weapon sites and break their resolve. If this happens (and I don't think it will because I think his forces will defect and dispel and/or run) then we are in for a bloody and long assault on Damascus which may require the Intl Community to publicly or secretly arm up the rebels to the hilt, giving them a better chance at finishing the job on the ground.

All of that is bad. There's no good end to this thing. But that's exactly why I think rhetoric needs to be stepped up and he needs threats with teeth behind them.

"stop massacring your people immediately, do not use heavy weapons against an outgunned rebel force or we will take the first step and that is to impose a swift and vicious no fly zone and every one of your planes will be grounded forcing you into a long drawn out ground battle which ends in your death"

...would be the gist of the thing.

He won't listen to that - he feels his fate is absolutely cemented and he will kill to the end. Hence - it's time to rock. It's time to argue for action in Congress and ask the troops do they want in? Why troops would get involved in something that may escalate from a NFZ which puts a 100 pilots at risk to possibly special forces assaults which put a further 1000 guys at risk right up to boots on the ground which may put 20-50,000 guys at risk I don't know. That's for Obama to work out and the joint chiefs to debate. The legacy of good will it will create in the region if done properly and if they get the **** out of there ASAP (ie <6 months) after its done no matter what the situation on the ground will resound in history and all the Syrian civilians will remember is when the US stopped Assad killing them, fuk the terrorist groups scratching for power and followers in the mix - they're gona be there anyway no matter what happens... just keep the advanced weapons out of their hands best you can.

Hearts and minds are already on board, the average Syrian wants Assad to step down and for a new Syria where they have a say in their lives to take form... even if there's bloodshed.. there's no going back now. The tide is coming and it's just a question of how many 100's of thousands of Syrian civilians the Intl Community and primarily Obama is willing to witness get massacred JUST AS CLINTON WATCHED 1 MILLION RWANDANS GET HACKED TO DEATH BY MACHETES IN 3 MONTHS.

I don't see the choice as a complicated one now, 1 year ago yes, 6 months ago maybe but since 6 months ago 5000 have died every single month and is now increasing day by day right now. The information is there enough now to know the limited set of futures that lies before us.. all of them suck.... but one of them is clearly THE worst for Syrians and the region and IMO the Intl community... and that is the future where we sit back and debate while 100,000 or 200,000 Syrians get massacred by a state military with Assad at the helm diggin in and ready to die and those numbers are a real logical projected estimate seeing as the battle for Damascus has not begun, yet.

Damascus is the center of a large metropolitan area of 2.6 million people. It is the absolute capital in all meanings of the word. Everything and everyone is there. 100's died during the initial protests which kicked this thing off 2 years ago so there is massive anti-government sentiment JUST BENEATH the surface and these people will come out to play very very quickly should rebel tanks or cars or SUVs roll down the road beeping and shouting. The Shabia who control check points in the now locked down Damascus will have to group together as the war approaches Damascus city limits and at this point they will stick with Assad or flee or defect. They have a ruthless system of preventing or finding defectors or possible defectors by paying or forcing members to pretend to defect or to plan to defect and if the trap is successful they execute the soldier there and then in front of the others and so forth and as the war continues the ranks become more and more concentrated. The trick is to get the officers to defect which would allow whole squads to defect. This will only come towards the end if at all. They are trained by Iranians, nice of Iran to do that isn't it : ) assholes.

He 's gotta go... whats' wrong with my prediction ... the only thing which prevents the bloodshed I pessimistically predict is if Assad just magically either shoots himself or steps down publicly under the agreement of being taken abroad and escaping eventual execution which ain't gona happen less they evac him by black hawk with special forces with a signed agreement from the US state dept and all of that ain't gona happen either... this thing is going south.. and fast.

He needs to go - that requires the US's help - that requires political support - that requires an event of horrific massacre and that is coming, mark my pessimistic words it's 100% guaranteed! and if it comes I hope it's sooner than later so less Syrians die at Assads hands.

Depressing sh1t. But if I'm so wrong tell me where and how?

asherbassad

Be like Nutella wrote: »

actually I can't disagree with much of that... but the thing is I just see this Assad gang continuing to kill more and more people every day and week and month until there's 100,000... 150,000 dead.... and that is not something that should be acceptable to an Intl Community which has the physical capsity to stop it.... intervene... on some level...

-Give Assad a deadline to 'give it up'
-Impose No Fly Zone by whatever means
-Secure the chem weapons
-Arrest everyone for war crimes that be needin arrestin
-Find some reasonable people to deal with
-do your best to stop weapons gettin into AQ or Jihadist group hands
-Roll the dice, basically give them a chance
-help them set up or try to set up a democracy..
-try and keep the institutions that remotely work intact
-Get a kitty goin to rebuild the gaf
-Secure oil deals etc to get some money goin in the right direction
-ask the new crowd what you can do to help
-then get your troops out of dodge before you fuk it up like you did in Iraq

and to be honest all that could be a load of crap I don't have the answers I just think the US and Obama does NOT want to watch another Rwanda unfold and do nothing because history will only forget a LIMITED number of genocides under America's watch!

It took 4 Stealth bombers and 72 hours, essentially, to stop Milosevic

Clinton could've intervened in Rwanda and chose not to and 1 million people died in 3 months and he says it is his greatest regret of his life.

Most Syrians want out from under Assad.... some of them stood up and fought for that... the rest chose not to or can't or are scared or would be massacred if they did. Assad firmly believes that the chaos of Syria without an Assad at the helm is worth massacring a few hundred thousand Syrians. He is facing life in jail right now already. He now only sees one end to this and that is all out genocide and the international community rubs its thumbs while a desperate man plays the numbers game and by attrition kills 5000 Syrians (not all of them fuking terrorists by the way its mostly old people, kids, women, bloody civilians) per month every month since and including last July... 5000/5000/5000/5000/5000/5000... and counting. He knows that the number he kills every day with Barrel bombs fuilled with nails and Gatling guns from helicopter gun ships and missiles fires at gas stations and bakery queues has not 'prompted' the Intl community to jump in and kick his evil ass yet. This is all a game of numbers. Here's a few important ones to consider.

1. 200,000 - is 200,000 massacred Syrian civilians enough to promt Obama to do something.
2. 296 - That's how many congressmen voted YES to Iraq in 2003... and that was based on maaaaaaajor bullsh1t - this is real and happening on CNN right in front of their eyes.
3 3000-7000 Libyans died and we all jumped in there over 50 cal machine guns being used on the streets - There's between 45-55 thousand dead in Syria in the last 22 months, 30,000 in the last 5 months alone....this MF is willing to carpet bomb entire areas of housing - wait and see.... he feels he has no other fate.

His choice is binary... he dies for what he believes in, an ordered Syria which his father and himself (by chance he was never meant to lead - it was to his brother but he died in a feckin car accident and Assad who was in London at the time training to be a feckin eye doctor got the call - few years later he's running the show with absolutely no experience in government whatsoever )... he dies for that or... he's a flip of a coin away from execution by whoever/whatever replaces his lot... or life in jail courtesy of the Hague.

TBH as I've mentioned a few times the thread title was just to focus minds here.... I could've just said Should Obama get into Syria and do whatever is necessary to stop Assad in his increasing massacre of Syrians including everything up to taking him out if necessary.... which is a ploy which the US has employed to attempted to employ in other situations many many times before eg. Iraq - Saddam.. which incidentally didn't work but you get the drift.

Because I KNOW FOR CERTAIN from the way I read this thing that Assad's crowd (who ALLL by the way are responsible and in the same shoes as him less they defect, which many have and many have died trying and many rot in tortuous jails for thinking about trying)... because I know all these dudes are stuck between a fate of jail/execution/attempted defection/attempted escape/Hague courtrooms for 10 years/or status quo for as long as they can hold out and fuk the 100,000 that need to die in the mean time - that is exactly what they will do.

This thing is an out of control locomotive and it's left the station and the only way to stop it is to stop it...in its tracks... and let the chips fall where they land.

It's easier to argue about doing nothing right up to the day when he kills 25,000 in some bombing or chem weapon attack or slaughters an entire Crowd in Damascus which is where this all ends... and then do something... when it's too late.

The US CANNOT allow that to happen... they will be blamed by the Syrians afterwards and by us all at home watching it on sky news. The US cannot absorb that blow internationally. So it's gona come down to the wire. I'm merely saying if I were Obama I would sell the humanitarian disaster of it to Americans and raise a posse and do something righteous and fuk the IR bullsh1t we're all talking about here - if Assad is not stopped hes not stopped that's all that will matter in history. It's very easy to argue that the aftermath may result in civil war and that minority extreme caliphate seeking Islamists will grab for power with or without mandate and that terrorist attacks will be common as these groups try and consolidate power and that there's no natural resources to be invading about anyway or that Russia wont vote for it or China.... who gives a monkeys... WHEN not IF... WHEN Assad massacres 100,000 THE INTL COMMUNITY WILL 100% 'HAVE' TO DO IT ANYWAY, NO MATTER WHAT THE POTENTIAL CONSEQUENCES!!!

Let's look at some very simple facts:

1.4 million Iraqis dead and 4 million refugees.

Iraqi woman terrified to get pregnant because of the appalling birth defects as a result of chemical weapons, Charming stuff:

http://stgvisie.home.xs4all.nl/VISIE/extremedeformities.html

Kinda reminds me of the freaks with heads like cones and born with no anuses as a result of Agent Orange on little rice people in the 60's and 70's



But that was all to get a few barrels of WMD.


Now let's move on to the screaming toddlers in Pakistan who deficate the moment they hear a drone overhead.....even though Osama is dead and those WMDs have been found:

http://www.globalresearch.ca/killing-civilians-obamas-drone-war-in-pakistan/5315661



SO,

Once again....the FCUKING US can't allow something to happen??

Maybe an apology and some trials before you go slaughtering some people in yet another country that you couldn't even spell let alone find on a map?

CollardGreens

Yikes, you folks are sure tuff on the Americans! As a citizen born and raised in America, please allow me to speak...ahem....

#1, Yo, Cork Boy...friend, obama DOES NOT speak for over half of the Americans. I'd love to see that joker that is running Syria blown to pieces as many of Americans would. Assad needs kill'en, period!

#2, Why is it that everybody expects the Americans to fix things? Folks, we are so flipping broke we can't pay attention. This knuckle head impostor trying to be an American (which I really don't believe he is) obama is spending us into the poor house. Just today it's reported he is appointing a man that not only hates Israel and the Jews to head up our military, and that joker wants to DISMANTLE the military!!!! (No I'm not kidding, wish I were). I have family in the military, their pay checks and medical got cut Jan 1st and the gov is just beginning to break them down.

#3, as to "why", from what I'm reading it is that if we go to war with Syria then Russia will get involved. Do I agree, heck no. IMO we need to grow our military and we should have taken that Assad dude out a loooong time ago.

Friends, the American people are in a great unrest and not happy would be putting it lightly. Most think obama got in with stolen votes. The people that voted for him were three groups, the people that do not want to work and expect handouts (i.e. lazy worthless), the liberals that hate Jesus and want control, and the millions of illegals that cross our borders from Mexico that obama gave a free pass right before the election to make sure he would steal this election.

Last but deff not least, two words....GEORGE SOROS! That is whom is running things now. obama is his puppet, he hates America, he hates Jews, he is one of the richest men in the world and HE BOUGHT THE COMPANY THAT COUNTED THE VOTES IN AMERICA.

I'm done, Thank you.....I'm off the soapbox now