Closing favourite threads.....

knucklehead6

30000 posts over 3 threads, but apparently there was discussion over a mods brekkie one day and they decided to lock it down...

(this is not a dig at mods or anything else, but i LIKED that thread!!)

Zaph

For site performance purposes there's a limit of 10,000 posts in any single thread. Usually when a thread hits that limit a new one is opened to carry on from the closed thread.

Oops, thought this was Feedback, so to keep with the rant, damn those mods and their brekkies!

knucklehead6

oh no, this one was killted and we're not allowed re-open it...

Must've been the weetabix!

Honey-ec

Indeed. Ridiculous decision.

Burgo

Zaph wrote: »

For site performance purposes there's a limit of 10,000 posts in any single thread. Usually when a thread hits that limit a new one is opened to carry on from the closed thread.

Oops, thought this was Feedback, so to keep with the rant, damn those mods and their brekkies!

Just give it more ram!

P_1

knucklehead6 wrote: »

30000 posts over 3 threads, but apparently there was discussion over a mods brekkie one day and they decided to lock it down...

(this is not a dig at mods or anything else, but i LIKED that thread!!)

Cén thread?

EDIT: I see what thread you mean

Not a fan of people getting on their high horse and saying 'this shouldn't be discussed' and mods agreeing with them

If you don't want something being discussed, nobody is holding a gun to your head and forcing you to read the bloody thing

Esoteric_

The thing annoying me about it is that they had their reasons for closing it, most of which are in the feedback thread for that particular forum.

What they fail to take into consideration though, is the fact that the things people complained about in the feedback thread don't actually over-ride the good. So many new users got help in that thread. Hell, even I got help in that thread when I was worrying about asking somebody out or not, and I'm not a new user! I really think the good over-rode the bad and that it was a stupid call.

Ugh.

Edit to say - while I think it was a bad call, I have nothing but respect for the mods, and I didn't mean that to sound in any way rude towards them!

Fluorescence

Moved to Feedback from Ranting and Raving

knucklehead6

I can kinda understand why it was closed in that the thread had no real 'home' but if that was the feeling then the first thread should have been closed and directed elsewhere. To allow 30k posts over 3 threads sets a precedent.

Tigger99

I'm really disappointed that this thread is closed. It was my favourite thread on boards and has helped me and no doubt countless others.

Would the mods have a suggestionfor where a new version of this thread could find a home?

Zaph

knucklehead6 wrote: »

To allow 30k posts over 3 threads sets a precedent.

No, it demonstrates that the tGC mods were accommodating in allowing the threads to reside in that forum. However when they became more work that they're worth, then really there isn't a mod on the site who wouldn't have done the same thing had they been in the tGC mods' shoes. Just as an example of what I mean, those threads have generated over 150 reported posts in about a year and a half. That's a lot of work for the mods for threads that don't really belong in their forum.

knucklehead6

Zaph wrote: »

No, it demonstrates that the tGC mods were accommodating in allowing the threads to reside in that forum. However when they became more work that they're worth, then really there isn't a mod on the site who wouldn't have done the same thing had they been in the tGC mods' shoes. Just as an example of what I mean, those threads have generated over 150 reported posts in about a year and a half. That's a lot of work for the mods for threads that don't really belong in their forum.

That's fair enough Zaph, I don't think anyone who is on this thread or has been disappointed by the closure would give out about the mods there.

To be honest, i wouldn't have considered 150 reported posts out of 30000 a lot. But i do take your point about it being extra work for threads that they accommodated.

I don't think there would be enough interest in it for a forum all of its own, but i would second Tigger99's request that maybe someone point us in a direction of a forum where it CAN live?

Zaph

knucklehead6 wrote: »

That's fair enough Zaph, I don't think anyone who is on this thread or has been disappointed by the closure would give out about the mods there.

Ah no, I appreciate that this isn't about the mods, but rather a modding decision.

knucklehead6 wrote: »

To be honest, i wouldn't have considered 150 reported posts out of 30000 a lot. But i do take your point about it being extra work for threads that they accommodated.

It's a lot when you consider that:

1 - All our mods are volunteers and give up their time freely to keep the site running

2 - Each reported post requires varying degrees of effort to resolve. Many are clear cut, but in a big thread where a reported post refers to a discussion that's been going on for the previous 100 posts, there's a lot of catching up to do before the mod can even start to consider what's to be done.

3 - The vast majority of threads on Boards generate zero reported posts

knucklehead6 wrote: »

I don't think there would be enough interest in it for a forum all of its own, but i would second Tigger99's request that maybe someone point us in a direction of a forum where it CAN live?

I can guarantee that any forum request for this would fail. There simply isn't broad enough subject matter to sustain one. As for a suitable forum for a new thread, tbh I really don't think there is one. From what I've seen the threads were a mix between an agony aunt, a support group and somewhere people just wanted to have a chat. There isn't a forum on Boards that would support that mix. Maybe you could create a social group for it?

knucklehead6

Zaph wrote: »

Ah no, I appreciate that this isn't about the mods, but rather a modding decision.



It's a lot when you consider that:

1 - All our mods are volunteers and give up their time freely to keep the site running

2 - Each reported post requires varying degrees of effort to resolve. Many are clear cut, but in a big thread where a reported post refers to a discussion that's been going on for the previous 100 posts, there's a lot of catching up to do before the mod can even start to consider what's to be done.

3 - The vast majority of threads on Boards generate zero reported posts

I'd also doubt that the vast majority of threads have 30k posts.

I'm a mod on a site myself, so I understand how much time can be eaten up by it. Especially when it's your own time!

Zaph wrote: »

I can guarantee that any forum request for this would fail. There simply isn't broad enough subject matter to sustain one. As for a suitable forum for a new thread, tbh I really don't think there is one. From what I've seen the threads were a mix between an agony aunt, a support group and somewhere people just wanted to have a chat. There isn't a forum on Boards that would support that mix. Maybe you could create a social group for it?

I know a forum request would fail, it would be be a one thread forum!
I don't think anyone would even suggest it to be honest.


The problem with the social groups is that not a lot of people know about them. We hard a LOT of lurkers on that thread. I have seen it mentioned on other sites.

P_1

Zaph wrote: »

Ah no, I appreciate that this isn't about the mods, but rather a modding decision.



It's a lot when you consider that:

1 - All our mods are volunteers and give up their time freely to keep the site running

2 - Each reported post requires varying degrees of effort to resolve. Many are clear cut, but in a big thread where a reported post refers to a discussion that's been going on for the previous 100 posts, there's a lot of catching up to do before the mod can even start to consider what's to be done.

3 - The vast majority of threads on Boards generate zero reported posts



I can guarantee that any forum request for this would fail. There simply isn't broad enough subject matter to sustain one. As for a suitable forum for a new thread, tbh I really don't think there is one. From what I've seen the threads were a mix between an agony aunt, a support group and somewhere people just wanted to have a chat. There isn't a forum on Boards that would support that mix. Maybe you could create a social group for it?

It is a strange one alright, just had a look at it there, it seems it was kicked from tLL to tGC and then kicked out of tGC for broadly the same reasons.

Perhaps there might be scope for a new forum with the same ethos as tLL and tGC but gender neutral?

Or would that be too much of a PITA?

knucklehead6

pithater1 wrote: »

It is a strange one alright, just had a look at it there, it seems it was kicked from tLL to tGC and then kicked out of tGC for broadly the same reasons.

Perhaps there might be scope for a new forum with the same ethos as tLL and tGC but gender neutral?

Or would that be too much of a PITA?

TNGSF.

the non gender specific forum....

P_1

knucklehead6 wrote: »

TNGSF.

the non gender specific forum....

Ha could call it the Lounge or something similar, kind of a halfway house between the two where the OD thread 'should' fit in.

Zaph

pithater1 wrote: »

Or would that be too much of a PITA?

That's putting it mildly!

As a former tLL mod, I know that it's a very tough forum to mod. I'd imagine tGC is similar, and both those forums are aimed at a clearly defined demographic. To be honest, I can't think of how you could run a mixed gender forum like this. Inevitably some people will take offence that it's too/not enough male/female oriented and that the mods are biased. And then you'll have threads that may be better suited to one of the other forums, but there'd be claims from the other gender that they were being excluded if it were moved. I'd say the chances of getting anyone to agree to mod a forum like that are next to none, and I wouldn't blame them.

Insect Overlord

Zaph wrote: »

To be honest, I can't think of how you could run a mixed gender forum like this. Inevitably some people will take offence that it's too/not enough male/female oriented and that the mods are biased. And then you'll have threads that may be better suited to one of the other forums, but there'd be claims from the other gender that they were being excluded if it were moved. I'd say the chances of getting anyone to agree to mod a forum like that are next to none, and I wouldn't blame them.

Aw, no. We're going to have to shut down After Hours! And PI/RI! And The Noc, and C&H, Health & Fitness, Parenting, Literature, Radio, Primary & Pre-School, Politics, LGBT, Oulwans'n'Oulfellas, Philosphy, Religion & Spirituality and their sub-fora, Television, the various college forums...

Zaph

Insect Overlord wrote: »

Aw, no. We're going to have to shut down After Hours! And PI/RI! And The Noc, and C&H, Health & Fitness, Parenting, Literature, Radio, Primary & Pre-School, Politics, LGBT, Oulwans'n'Oulfellas, Philosphy, Religion & Spirituality and their sub-fora, Television, the various college forums...

Well I never liked the college forums anyway... :pac:

I know what you're saying, but I think the gist of the question pithater asked is whether it would be possible to have a "gender issues" type forum (for want of a better description) in the manner of tLL and tGC, but open to all. I think it would be too hard to police and would inevitably detract from the other two forums.

Insect Overlord

Zaph wrote: »

Well I never liked the college forums anyway... :pac:

I know what you're saying, but I think the gist of the question pithater asked is whether it would be possible to have a "gender issues" type forum (for want of a better description) in the manner of tLL and tGC, but open to all. I think it would be too hard to police and would inevitably detract from the other two forums.

Ah yeah, I got what you meant. Just wanted to get the above point out of the way Devil's advocate-style, before someone more awkward tried to make an issue of it!

knucklehead6

Insect Overlord wrote: »

Ah yeah, I got what you meant. Just wanted to get the above point out of the way Devil's advocate-style, before someone more awkward tried to make an issue of it!

Damn.... gonna have to come up with another tack!! :P

Tigger99

What about if a social group could be set up with the posters from the thread, or would that be a big job, not really sure how they are set up.

Ok, I would mean that lurkers couldnt see it, but sure at the moment there's no thread, so anything would be better than that.

knucklehead6

I've put in a request at the helpdesk about setting one up.

knucklehead6

group set up. Called, imaginatively enough, Online Dating Group

Linky

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/group.php?groupid=349

P_1

Zaph wrote: »

Well I never liked the college forums anyway... :pac:

I know what you're saying, but I think the gist of the question pithater asked is whether it would be possible to have a "gender issues" type forum (for want of a better description) in the manner of tLL and tGC, but open to all. I think it would be too hard to police and would inevitably detract from the other two forums.

Yeah that was what I meant, of course once I had posted it I realised that there probably wasn't going to be a snowballs chance in hell of 1) anyone wanting to mod it, and 2) any sort of coherent argument that wouldn't go around in circles and lead to multiple bannings etc

Great idea in theory but would never work in practice

Pawwed Rig

In fairness to TGC this was discussed in the feedback thread in TGC a few months ago. There were not any great arguments for keeping the dating thread open which tells me that posters in that thread were disconnected from TGC.
As the thread was popular it might have been a better idea to move it rather than close it but as discussed in the feedback thread there is no natural home for it.
OP approach other mods who make take it into their forum

P_1

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

In fairness to TGC this was discussed in the feedback thread in TGC a few months ago. There were not any great arguments for keeping the dating thread open which tells me that posters in that thread were disconnected from TGC.
As the thread was popular it might have been a better idea to move it rather than close it but as discussed in the feedback thread there is no natural home for it.
OP approach other mods who make take it into their forum

The question is who would want it, it looks like an absolute trainwreck to mod.

Thinking about it, the most logical place for it would be PI but I can see it falling foul of the strict modding there fairly sharpish.

Zaph

As an ex-PI mod I can assure you that PI isn't a forum for open ended discussion and chat like that thread was used for, so I'd have to disagree with you that it would be the logical home for it.

P_1

Zaph wrote: »

As an ex-PI mod I can assure you that PI isn't a forum for open ended discussion and chat like that thread was used for, so I'd have to disagree with you that it would be the logical home for it.

That't true, the only Pro for that argument was that if you were to pigeon hole online dating you'd have to consider it as a personal issue.

The cons for that far outweigh the pros though...

Orim

I think it would fit well into BGRH

P_1

Orim wrote: »

I think it would fit well into BGRH

Do the mods of BGRH want it though?

I think the problem that we have is that we have something that:
1 - a good few people want to talk about
2 - a good few others don't want to see people talking about
3 - is an absolute headache to mod

Now solving this sort of conundrum is why the mods/admins are paid the big bucks earn the coke and hookers

knucklehead6

pithater1 wrote: »

Do the mods of BGRH want it though?

I think the problem that we have is that we have something that:
1 - a good few people want to talk about
2 - a good few others don't want to see people talking about
3 - is an absolute headache to mod

Now solving this sort of conundrum is why the mods/admins are paid the big bucks earn the coke and hookers

I don't think any mods want the thread in their forum.

That leaves setting up a new forum, but there isn't the interest for that..... And no mod would want to moderate it. And as Zaph said, it wouldn't get approved anyway. I'd offer my services as a mod but I think that the boards hamster feeders would want an experienced mod to take care of it, as it would require a steady hand.


We have a workaround in the social group. I think that's about as good as its going to get, unfortunately.

Pawwed Rig

Orim wrote: »

I think it would fit well into BGRH

E-mail the BGRH mods and ask them if they will take it. Having said that a quick browse through their forum would seem to indicate that the online Dating thread would be by far the busiest on that forum, so they may not have the manpower to deal with OD

Zaph

Orim wrote: »

I think it would fit well into BGRH

Interestingly enough, in the past 18 months or so 4 couples who met in BGRH have gotten married (I'm half of one of those couples ). That said, the forum charter does include this:

No serious threads

Which I think automatically rules it out of contention.

I'm disappointed that that thread was shut. Where am I to air my grievances now? apart from friends

P_1

TBH the whole 'there's no place to put it so we'll have no talking about it' point is a bit of a cop out.

The fact is that we have a topic that:

1 - a lot of people want to talk about
2 - is not illegal or immoral
3 - nobody is threatening to sue the site over

TBH 150 reported posts over 30,000 posts is nothing really. Compare that with say, a contentious football match in soccer or something like the household charge over in AH. If you were to apply the same criteria to those would we have talk of them banned?

Just my €0.02

supackofidiots

disgraceful decision, easily one of the most popular threads on the website. one of the regular posters in the thread would have been fairly happy to moderate it I'd imagine.

what if it was put in Tech>Blogs/Wikis/Social Networks. That forums could be retitled to something to incorporate the OD. Make Knucklehead a mod of that forum with the sole job of moderating the online dating thread. Problem solved.

Pawwed Rig

supackofidiots wrote: »

what if it was put in Tech>Blogs/Wikis/Social Networks. That forums could be retitled to something to incorporate the OD. Make Knucklehead a mod of that forum with the sole job of moderating the online dating thread. Problem solved.

Seems like a good idea although I am not sure volunteering to be a mod actually qualifies one as a mod. The powers that be would need to look at his history and make that decision.

Agree that a popular thread like this should be kept open somewhere.
I also agree that 150 posts out of 30,000 does not seem a huge drain on resources.

We could also move it to the Gambling forum if my experience of OD is anything to go by:D

Edit: This thread has been viewed 450,000 times by posters and lurkers. That is just the most recent thread. There were 2 threads previous to this one. That is alot of footfall (advertising space) to be giving up.

Zaph

supackofidiots wrote: »

disgraceful decision

Given that your trolling of the thread got you banned from tGC, this opinion hardly surprises me.

supackofidiots wrote: »

what if it was put in Tech>Blogs/Wikis/Social Networks. That forums could be retitled to something to incorporate the OD. Make Knucklehead a mod of that forum with the sole job of moderating the online dating thread. Problem solved.

We will not be renaming or reorganising a forum just to suit a single thread. Similarly the mod selection process will not be changed purely to suit it.

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

I also agree that 150 posts out of 30,000 does not seem a huge drain on resources.

Without knowing what each reported post was, I can't confirm that every single one required significant mod effort. However from having looked a a sample few of them it's clear that some certainly required an above average amount of work from the mods due to the size of the thread and the need to go back through a lot of the he said/she said bickering.

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

Edit: This thread has been viewed 450,000 times by posters and lurkers. That is just the most recent thread. There were 2 threads previous to this one. That is alot of footfall (advertising space) to be giving up.

When advertising becomes the sole criteria for keeping threads open I'll be long gone from Boards to care whether they are or not.

Dravokivich

knucklehead6 wrote: »

I can kinda understand why it was closed in that the thread had no real 'home' but if that was the feeling then the first thread should have been closed and directed elsewhere. To allow 30k posts over 3 threads sets a precedent.

The first thread was intended to be about opinions and perspectives regarding Online Dating. It turned into a gossip column after that.

Esoteric_

To give credit to the mods and to counter the argument that 150 reported posts isn't a lot out of 30,000 -

I've reported posts in that thread more than once. By the time a mod is online to look at it (because it was a very fast moving thread), they had to wade through three or four pages of posts generally, then not only penalise the person in the wrong, but also check every single response quoting that person.

It's not a case of just deleting one post or banning/infracting one person. It's a case of having to go through every single reply for a few pages afterward.

We can't expect mods to be online all the time and, as someone who mods a few extremely high traffic forums on another site, I can say with hand on heart that it's a pain in the bollocks to have to wade through pages of posts just to action one post, and then check every single subsequent post.

Sure, I'm sad to see it gone, but eh, knucklehead made a social group, and hats off to the mods for moderating it as long as they did. I certainly don't envy them, it was a mammoth task. Out of the 150 reported posts, I'd imagine that a hell of a lot more of the subsequent posts had to be deleted/actioned, too.

Pawwed Rig

Zaph wrote: »

Without knowing what each reported post was, I can't confirm that every single one required significant mod effort. However from having looked a a sample few of them it's clear that some certainly required an above average amount of work from the mods due to the size of the thread and the need to go back through a lot of the he said/she said bickering.

Fair point

Zaph wrote: »

When advertising becomes the sole criteria for keeping threads open I'll be long gone from Boards to care whether they are or not.

Of course not the sole criteria but from reading other threads in feedback with the cost of running the site and the reintroduction of banner ads it is still a valid point.

I did mention foootfall aswell which is more important imho.
As a thread itself the OD does not interest me. I think I posted in it a couple of times way back but not recently. What does interest me is the size of the thread and the amount of hits it gets. That tells me there is a huge interest in keeping it open. If that makes the boards community bigger and happier then the thread should be reopened (imho).

So Zaph maybe as an admin you can provide advice. What can the guys do from here? Is it worth their while canvassing for another forum to host this thread or is it a dead duck?

Zaph

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

So Zaph maybe as an admin you can provide advice. What can the guys do from here? Is it worth their while canvassing for another forum to host this thread or is it a dead duck?

I've been giving this some thought since the whole question of re-starting it in another forum was first asked, and honestly I can't think of anywhere it fits. It went from an advice thread to a pure chat thread, and any forums that already have chat threads aren't going to want another one, even if it's more focussed on a single topic than the existing general chat threads. Any forum that doesn't have a chat thread isn't going to want to add one at this stage. While it's not an ideal solution for the thread regulars, I do think that the social group is about as good as it gets in this case.

P_1

Zaph wrote: »

I've been giving this some thought since the whole question of re-starting it in another forum was first asked, and honestly I can't think of anywhere it fits. It went from an advice thread to a pure chat thread, and any forums that already have chat threads aren't going to want another one, even if it's more focussed on a single topic than the existing general chat threads. Any forum that doesn't have a chat thread isn't going to want to add one at this stage. While it's not an ideal solution for the thread regulars, I do think that the social group is about as good as it gets in this case.

Zaph if you ask me you're setting a dangerous precedent for the site by essentially saying that this topic has no home and thus, is not to be discussed.

Now I understand that there is no free speech as such here but logic would dictate that that 'should' only apply to topics that are illegal or could get the site into trouble legally.

Another potential solution could be to take a leaf from the forum where this thread originated, R&R, and make a private forum for the discussion of OD. Taking another leaf from R&R, this new forum could have a rule written into the charter stating that if you break any rule whatsoever, you're gone, no comeback, no appeals will be listened to.

Would that fly?

Zaph

pithater1 wrote: »

Zaph if you ask me you're setting a dangerous precedent for the site by essentially saying that this topic has no home and thus, is not to be discussed.

Now I understand that there is no free speech as such here but logic would dictate that that 'should' only apply to topics that are illegal or could get the site into trouble legally.

If I had actually said that there might be a precedent set, although describing it as a dangerous one may be a little over-dramatic. But at no stage did I say that this topic should not be discussed, if that were the case I'd never have suggested a social group. What I have said is that I can think of no obvious home for it, which is something completely different.

pithater1 wrote: »

Another potential solution could be to take a leaf from the forum where this thread originated, R&R, and make a private forum for the discussion of OD. Taking another leaf from R&R, this new forum could have a rule written into the charter stating that if you break any rule whatsoever, you're gone, no comeback, no appeals will be listened to.

Would that fly?

Well there's nothing stopping you putting in a forum request for it if you want to give it a go. It would still have to go through the full process like any other forum request.

awec

Hi all,

We closed this thread because we felt it was no longer a topic that belonged in the gents club. There had been a lot of off topic chatter in it recently and the thread rules were made stricter with thread #3 but the overriding reason was that it didn't fit in with the purpose of the forum.

The thread itself had strayed completely from what it originally had started out to discuss. We discussed closing it at length and took on board the feedback given by posters and we all agreed that closing it was the most sensible option.

As mods of the gentlemens club it is not up to us to say where this thread might be better placed, but we made a call that tgc isn't its rightful home.

As for moving it instead of closing it, I personally feel it would be unfair on another mod to land a thread almost 10000 posts long in their forum. Closing with the view of it being started elsewhere was the obvious option, provided the thread posters could find a suitable forum for it.

P_1

Zaph wrote: »

If I had actually said that there might be a precedent set, although describing it as a dangerous one may be a little over-dramatic. But at no stage did I say that this topic should not be discussed, if that were the case I'd never have suggested a social group. What I have said is that I can think of no obvious home for it, which is something completely different.

I might have misinterpreted you there, but what I read from it was essentially no thread/forum to post about it in = no discussion.

Zaph wrote: »

Well there's nothing stopping you putting in a forum request for it if you want to give it a go. It would still have to go through the full process like any other forum request.

TBH I never actually posted in it and was just sticking up for the folks who were annoyed about it being closed (this opened up in R&R remember).
Its an option for the lads and I'll certainly give it my +1 if it does get requested. However I wouldn't hold my breath on it being approved even if it gets a million +1's as I have a feeling that the mod/admin ranks have closed on this issue.

Zaph

pithater1 wrote: »

I might have misinterpreted you there, but what I read from it was essentially no thread/forum to post about it in = no discussion.

There's the social group, so discussion is permitted. Not having a proper home for a thread is not the same as banning all discussion relating to it.

pithater1 wrote: »

However I wouldn't hold my breath on it being approved even if it gets a million +1's as I have a feeling that the mod/admin ranks have closed on this issue.

Not in the slightest, to the best of my knowledge this hasn't been discussed anywhere other than by the tGC mods and on this thread. After discussion amongst themselves they decided it's not appropriate for their forum, and that's fair enough. I haven't discussed this with any other admins, no no ranks have been closed there.

P_1

Zaph wrote: »

There's the social group, so discussion is permitted. Not having a proper home for a thread is not the same as banning all discussion relating to it.

A social group equal an actual thread though. Having said that, if no mods want it in their own forums and chances are it won't get its own forum it probably is the best workaround.

Zaph wrote: »

Not in the slightest, to the best of my knowledge this hasn't been discussed anywhere other than by the tGC mods and on this thread. After discussion amongst themselves they decided it's not appropriate for their forum, and that's fair enough. I haven't discussed this with any other admins, no no ranks have been closed there.

That's fair enough, although your own opinion does carry some considerable weight around these parts so it might be a reasonable assumption that the other mods and admins may well back your opinion up in this case.

Maybe the best solution might be to open up a poll thread (with the mods agreement) in tGC to ask where the best new home for it may be and then to open up a poll thread (again with the mods agreement) in the winning forum asking both the users and mods if they want to have it there.

(You must be sick and tired of hearing my suggestions at this stage )

Dravokivich

Pithater1 I don't see why tGC needs any involvement in moving it elsewhere.