Match Thread: Ulster Rugby vs Leinster Rugby, Friday 21st Dec 19:05, RTE/BBCNI

molloyjh

Role Reversal

This time last year Ulster sent their kids down to the RDS in an attempt to ensure their first team was fit for the clash against Munster in Ravenhill the following week. At the time Leinster were unbeaten in 11 games in all competitions and were top of the Pro12 table with a decent cushion. Ulster by comparison were down at 8th. Leinster went on to win the fixture handsomely and then beat the Ulstermen in April in Ravenhill. In the HEC Ulster were second to Clermont Auvergne in their pool and qualified on 20 points while Leinster comfortably topped their pool. The two sides eventually going head-to-head in the Final with Leinster winning out on the day.

This season sees an almost complete role reversal between the sides. Ulster now top the league and their pool, have the impressive run of form and home advantage. Leinster on the other hand are behind Ulster in the league, second to Clermont Auvergne and hoping to qualify on 20 points. While Leinster are doing somewhat better in the league than Ulster were this time last year and have a stronger squad making the trip there is quite a lot in common with where the Ulster side were 12 months ago.

For Leinster Michael Bent gets his second start for Leinster with Healy and Cronin partnering him the the front-row. They will face stern opposition as Ulster have selected their best front-row in Court, Best & Afoa. Cullen and Toner face off against impressive youngster Henderson and Neil McComb. The back row is most likely where Leinster are strongest with McLaughlin returning from injury, an uncited Sean O'Brien and Jamie Heaslip. Ulster are still without the services of Stephen Ferris, but Diack, Henry and Williams is still a fairly classy back-row.

While Leinster back-line is, for the most part, a decent back-line it is up against possibly one of the best up and coming back-lines in Europe at the moment. Every name is a threat. Peinaar running the show at SH with Jackson, Gilroy, Marshall, Cave, Trimble and the imperious Payne lining up outside him. Meanwhile Leinster have possibly a more natural looking back-line than they've seen of late. But there is a lack of experience in certain positions. Reddan and Madigan at half-backs with D'Arcy resuming his duties at 12 is a pretty strong line-up. McFadden at 11 would also inspire confidence given his recent form. But while Brendan Macken at OC has grown with each game there are still some doubts over his defense and his decision making. Andrew Conway will be looking to come out of his shell and put in a performance many of those who have seen him at U20s know him to be capable of. The big surprise is the inclusion of Noel Reid at full-back. With Isa injured it looks likely that Dave Kearney isn't fit either. Adam Byrne has his first bench appearance despite not even being in the Academy. His rise has been a quick one and it would be very interesting to see how he gets on should he, well, get on.

Ulster will most likely look to move the ball to the wider channels and also test Reid with a few bombs. There's no question that Leinsters back-line is their weakness here, while for Ulster it's their strength. Both Trimble and Gilroy will be chomping at the bit to prove themselves in this derby game and they must be favoured to break the Leinster duck this Ulster team have had the last few years. Ulster by 8.

|

15: Noel Reid|15: Jared Payne
14: Andrew Conway|14: Andrew Trimble
13: Brendan Macken|13: Darren Cave
12: Gordon D'Arcy|12: Luke Marshall
11: Fergus McFadden|11: Craig Gilroy
10: Ian Madigan|10: Paddy Jackson
9: Eoin Reddan|9: Ruan Pienaar
1: Cian Healy|1: Tom Court
2: Sean Cronin|2: Rory Best
3: Michael Bent|3: John Afoa
4: Leo Cullen CAPTAIN|4: Ian Henderson
5: Devin Toner|5: Neil McComb
6: Kevin McLaughlin|6: Robbie Diack
7: Sean O'Brien|7: Chris Henry CAPTAIN
8: Jamie Heaslip|8: Nick Williams
|
16: Aaron Dundon|16: Rob Herring
17: Heinke van der Merwe|17: Callum Black
18: Jamie Hagan|18: Adam Macklin
19: Tom Denton|19: Alan O'Connor
20: Rhys Ruddock|20: Roger Wilson
21: Isaac Boss|21: Paul Marshall
22: Andrew Goodman|22: Paddy Wallace
23: Adam Byrne|23: Adam D'Arcy

Hagz

Well if you can't get exited about this game there's something wrong with you. There's three names I'm going to be keeping a close eye on.
Brendan Macken, Adam Byrne and Alan O'Connor. Alan O'Connor has the potential to be a real enforcer lock, something that I think we could do with.

molloyjh

Hagz wrote: »

Well if you can't get exited about this game there's something wrong with you. There's three names I'm going to be keeping a close eye on.
Brendan Macken, Adam Byrne and Alan O'Connor. Alan O'Connor has the potential to be a real enforcer lock, something that I think we could do with.

Is he not a Leinster man originally?

awec

I cannot wait! Not even going but still cannot wait! :pac:

Hagz

molloyjh wrote: »

Is he not a Leinster man originally?

Yeh, but he didn't make it into the Leinster Academy so Ulster swept him up. I was quite surprised by it tbh. But I'm happy that he's at least in some Academy set-up.

[Jackass]

Great work as usual!!

A lot rests on young shoulders in this game - some of the most prommising up and comers in Conway, Macken, Madigan and Reid - I hope they can all show some class and that they're making promising progress to threaten the first teamers.

I'm particularly excited by the inclusion of Byrne - leapfrogging those ahead of him in the academy - a very prommising sign, but lets not get carried away by building the hype and thus the pressure.

I've never seen him play, so would be great if he got 10 minutes anyway.

Given form and lineups, it's tough to look past Ulster in this one, but still, if the young pretenders at Leinster step up, it could be a very interesting night.

Teferi

Can't see past an Ulster victory tbh. Would love to see even a slightly stronger Leinster side but can understand the need for rest considering the two big weeks just past. With our chances of HC qualification all but gone we need to focus on this league now and I can't see Leinster doing it in Ravenhill.

justsomebloke

I wasn't actually expecting a near full strength team from either side but it seems both teams are going out for this. I think Ulster's back will be the difference though in the game with Leinster missing so many backs.

Fireball07

Looks like Leinster have the advantage in the pack, their back row in particular looks very strong. Ulster are missing a couple of important players there but at the same time, their scrum will probably be okay and the Leinster lineout was shaky recently so while Ulster may be at a disadvantage up front, they might be okay at the set-piece.

And you'd have to say Ulster look a lot stronger in the backs, even without Tommy Bowe and with Wallace on the bench. Big test for Madigan...strong pack in front of him, first choice scrum-half alongside him with the experience of D'Arcy outside. Macken has had some good games for Leinster when he's been in stronger teams, he's mainly been exposed when in a weaker team. And Reid at full-back...you'd expect Pienaar and Jackson to bombard him early on.

rchendz92

Exciting match. D'arcy vs. Marshall is going to be interesting & looking forward to seeing who does a better job on the floor between Henry and SOB. SUFTUM!

molloyjh

[Jackass] wrote: »

Great work as usual!!

A lot rests on young shoulders in this game - some of the most prommising up and comers in Conway, Macken, Madigan and Reid - I hope they can all show some class and that they're making promising progress to threaten the first teamers.

I'm particularly excited by the inclusion of Byrne - leapfrogging those ahead of him in the academy - a very prommising sign, but lets not get carried away by building the hype and thus the pressure.

I've never seen him play, so would be great if he got 10 minutes anyway.

Given form and lineups, it's tough to look past Ulster in this one, but still, if the young pretenders at Leinster step up, it could be a very interesting night.

From a Leinster point of view I think it's up to our pack to step up. If they can deny Ulster decent quick ball then we're in with a decent shout. And we need to be putting serious pressure on Jackson. He's come a long way since May and now's a great time to see just how well he's managed to banish those demons.

I'm not too concerned about us from 1-14, but Reid at full-back is a big risk imo. I've yet to be impressed by him for a full 80 at either 10 or 12 and so moving him to full-back is a bit of a worry. Has he ever played there before?

awec

Biggest / most important / most potentially exciting game of the Rabo season so far?

bilston

Ulster are probably a bit stronger from 1-15 but up front it's at best even from an Ulster POV and in fact I'd give Leinster the edge given we're missing our first choice second row and arguably 2/3s of our back row. As I said in another thread the pack wins matches!

I think it could be close enough...but if we do get parity up front we have the firepower to captilise.

Marshall vs D'Arcy is going to be really intriguing. That's probably the one personal battle I'm looking forward to the most...actually scrap that Henry vs O'Brien will be worth the admission money alone!

If we (Ulster) win then I fancy that even in December we'll be hard to stop from finishing as top seeds. Then again Leinster know that that doesn't always mean much when it comes to actually winning the title!

molloyjh

awec wrote: »

Biggest / most important / most potentially exciting game of the Rabo season so far?

That's not saying much this season though. And if we're going up to spoil the game it may be a bit of an anti-climax in the end. How's the weather up that way?

shaungil

molloyjh wrote: »

Is he not a Leinster man originally?

Heplayed his club rugby in Skerries before going to UCD two years ago and then the Leinster subacademy. He was picked up by the Ulster academy this season after playingforthe Irish Under 20’s in the World cup in South Africa.

Fishooks13

Should be an interesting game. Big chance for Madigan to start staking a claim for a spot ahead of Jackson in January.

thomond2006

Fishooks13 wrote: »

Should be an interesting game. Big chance for Madigan to start staking a claim for a spot ahead of Jackson in January.

Aye, it will be good to see how Madigan manages the game to use that cliché against a proper outfit.

Glass Prison 1214

Marshall vs D'arcy, Madigan vs Jackson, SOB vs Henry, McFadden vs Trimble, Conway vs Gilroy. Great battles from an Irish perspective, its a shame Strauss isn't playing

[Jackass]

I haven't seen what everyone has been raving about with Jackson. I've seen him have a number of solid if unspectacular games and one or two very poor games this season, and I've seen Madigan have some great games at 10 over the years.

Will be good to see them come up head to head and see how they get on

.ak

molloyjh wrote: »

Role Reversal
...

.ak

Great write up molloyjh, as usual! Very excited about this. Ashamed to say it's my first trip up to Ravenhill, as the away game is usually at a time I can't attend.

I wish EOM was 100%, I think he'd add a solid dimension and would pose as a danger man against that backline... Macken I'm not confident against big lads like Cave and Marshall, especially as they'll be wise to his trick with trying to burn them out wide. I met Noel Reid earlier today, and he seemed happy enough at being played at 15 - doubt he'd say otherwise mind you, but atleast he'll be able to stretch his legs.

As a side note I also saw Fitzgerald. Seemed very lean, which is impressive for a player not playing week in week out, most tend to go up a few percent on the bodyfat during rehab. I can only assume he's been very committed to the training sessions and nutritional aspect.

Had EOM and Fitz been fit for this the backlines would've almost been even, just goes to show how a couple of injuries can really tip the scales.

Is there any truth behind the food poisoning/stomach bug thing? If so, we could pull an England on Ulster here.

irishbucsfan

.ak wrote: »

Is there any truth behind the food poisoning/stomach bug thing? If so, we could pull an England on Ulster here.

The revenge of the pasties

bilston

irishbucsfan wrote: »

The revenge of the pasties

They can do that to you in fairness...

Someone was looking for the recipe of a Pastie earlier in the thread? Well the answer is nobody knows...you just find stuff and throw it in and mix it with a bit of onion and batter and hey presto...you have yourself a Pastie...

awec

One of the many mysteries of life.

Anyway, excitement has now set in. If we can't turn you over tonight we never will.

the_doctor199

molloyjh wrote: »

How's the weather up that way?

Looks a bit like the end of the world here, bit of a fog in the air, occasional showers but not too cold. No rain expected this afternoon.

dtpc191991

What about Jackson vs Madigan. This the showdown for that Irish 22 Jersey. XD

CatFromHue

Yeah there are a nice few match ups tonight:

McFadden v Trimble
D'arcy v Marshall
Madigan v Jackson
Henry v SOB/McLaughlin
Cronin v Best

molloyjh

CatFromHue wrote: »

Yeah there are a nice few match ups tonight:

McFadden v Trimble
D'arcy v Marshall
Madigan v Jackson
Henry v SOB/McLaughlin
Cronin v Best

Surely the Cronin v Best one wouldn't be anything other than a foregone conclusion? I like Cronin a lot, but Best is class.

Comparing McFadden and Gilroys performances would be interesting even though they are on opposite wings.

Tox56

Conway and Gilroy will be good too. They were on the same U20's team and I thought Conway looked the better of the two, and look at what Gilroy has gone on to achieve.

bilston

Tox56 wrote: »

Conway and Gilroy will be good too. They were on the same U20's team and I thought Conway looked the better of the two, and look at what Gilroy has gone on to achieve.

What's happened to Conway? With Fitzgerald been out long term and Horgan having retired I thought Conway would shoot up the ranks at Leinster quickly but it hasn't really happened yet. Has he been injured?

Fishooks13

Ya Conway really has been pretty disappointing considering the progression of some of his U20 peers (Zebo, Gilroy)

molloyjh

bilston wrote: »

What's happened to Conway? With Fitzgerald been out long term and Horgan having retired I thought Conway would shoot up the ranks at Leinster quickly but it hasn't really happened yet. Has he been injured?

Yeah he's been hit with a few injuries the last few seasons. Hasn't featured much as a result.

ssaye

molloyjh wrote: »

Yeah he's been hit with a few injuries the last few seasons. Hasn't featured much as a result.

yeah stinger injury, an eye injury, hopefully a good injuryfree run for next year

CIARAN_BOYLE

bilston wrote: »

What's happened to Conway? With Fitzgerald been out long term and Horgan having retired I thought Conway would shoot up the ranks at Leinster quickly but it hasn't really happened yet. Has he been injured?

He was hit with a few injuries, and a loss of the pure confidence that he had at U20 level.

When he was playing U20s you kind of got this impression from him that if he tried something it would work and he tried stuff. Now he seems to be going out there and doing a basic job, he doesn't have the same spark that he used to.

Fireball07

He's had a lot of gametime this year...I think it could be down to confidence mainly. I mean we know he's fast, he's got a huge burst of acceleration and can absolutely burn people...but how often does he show that?

You see Zebo and Gilroy get the ball from deep and you expect something to happen, they back themselves and while it doesn't always come off, they are viewed as a serious threat by the opposition. You don't get the same feeling with Conway yet.

ssaye

Fireball07 wrote: »

He's had a lot of gametime this year...I think it could be down to confidence mainly. I mean we know he's fast, he's got a huge burst of acceleration and can absolutely burn people...but how often does he show that?

You see Zebo and Gilroy get the ball from deep and you expect something to happen, they back themselves and while it doesn't always come off, they are viewed as a serious threat by the opposition. You don't get the same feeling with Conway yet.

They have improved immeasurably in the last while, hope conway can do the same.

Tox56

Looking at U20 team from 2011 who played England in the first game of the JWC:

15 - Craig Gilroy (Dungannon/Ulster)
14 - Andrew Conway (Blackrock/Leinster)
13 - Brendan Macken (Blackrock/Leinster)
12 - Luke Marshall (Ballymena/Ulster)
11 - Andrew Boyle (UCD/Leinster)
10 - Paddy Jackson (Dungannon/Ulster)
9 - Kieran Marmion (UWIC/Exile)
1 - James Tracy (UCD/Leinster)
2 - Niall Annett (Belfast Harlequins/Ulster) (capt)
3 - Tadhg Furlong (Clontarf/Leinster)
4 - Michael Kearney (Clontarf/Leinster)
5 - Iain Henderson (Queen's University/Ulster)
6 - Jordi Murphy (Lansdowne/Leinster)
7 - Dominic Gallagher (Dublin University/Ulster)
8 - Eoin McKeon (Galwegians/Connacht)

JJ Hanrahan was on the bench, and Tiernan O'Halloran didn't even make the squad! What a team that was, several provincial starters. Even just a year or two later it looks like one of the best underage teams we have had.

Conway has been very disappointing. He was arguably the best player in that 2011 team, and considering the talent in that team it is frustrating that he hasn't kicked on. I think he'll get there eventually though, he's only 21.

Fishooks13

I think the step up hasn't suited his style of attacking play

Tox56

Fireball07 wrote: »

He's had a lot of gametime this year...I think it could be down to confidence mainly. I mean we know he's fast, he's got a huge burst of acceleration and can absolutely burn people...but how often does he show that?

You see Zebo and Gilroy get the ball from deep and you expect something to happen, they back themselves and while it doesn't always come off, they are viewed as a serious threat by the opposition. You don't get the same feeling with Conway yet.

I remember his Leinster debut. I think he got 5 minutes at the end, and in that time he created a try with great pace and an offload, and made a great try saving tackle. He got injured soon after though, and that has been the story of his career so far.

totallegend

I think Conway's main problem this year is that Leinster have been sh*t (by our standards).

When you're a young guy trying to make a name for yourself, especially an outside back, you need the more experienced guys around you to give you the platform to play well. Whenever I saw Conway last season, he looked well able for it.

Higher

Conway has been hit with a boat-load of injuries is basically what has happened. Not trying to put down Zebo or Gilroy but Conway looked far better than the both of them and was top try scorer in a junior world cup featuring current All Blacks. He is a serious player if he can get some mometum after all those injuries.

Hasnt been great so far this season but then again, who in Leinster has other than Sexton?

Fishooks13

Higher wrote: »

Conway has been hit with a boat-load of injuries is basically what has happened. Not trying to put down Zebo or Gilroy but Conway looked far better than the both of them and was top try scorer in a junior world cup featuring current All Blacks. He is a serious player if he can get some mometum after all those injuries.

Hasnt been great so far this season but then again, who in Leinster has other than Sexton?

I don't really buy this. He's had plenty of game time this season.

It's probably a mix of him not stepping up as well as Gilroy and Zebo and the fact that his most consistent run of games has come during a poor spell for Leinster

CIARAN_BOYLE

Fishooks13 wrote: »

I don't really buy this. He's had plenty of game time this season.

I think the injuries prior to this season and the patchy gametime has hit his confidence.

Higher

Fishooks13 wrote: »

I don't really buy this. He's had plenty of game time this season.

It's probably a mix of him not stepping up as well as Gilroy and Zebo and the fact that his most consistent run of games has come during a poor spell for Leinster

Isnt that exactly what I said?

My point was that he gets hit with a load of injuries when Leinster were playing well and when he finally gets a run this season Leinster are awful. Leinster's try tally says it all tbh.

Fireball07

Tox56 wrote: »

Looking at U20 team from 2011 who played England in the first game of the JWC:

15 - Craig Gilroy (Dungannon/Ulster)
14 - Andrew Conway (Blackrock/Leinster)
13 - Brendan Macken (Blackrock/Leinster)
12 - Luke Marshall (Ballymena/Ulster)
11 - Andrew Boyle (UCD/Leinster)
10 - Paddy Jackson (Dungannon/Ulster)
9 - Kieran Marmion (UWIC/Exile)
1 - James Tracy (UCD/Leinster)
2 - Niall Annett (Belfast Harlequins/Ulster) (capt)
3 - Tadhg Furlong (Clontarf/Leinster)
4 - Michael Kearney (Clontarf/Leinster)
5 - Iain Henderson (Queen's University/Ulster)
6 - Jordi Murphy (Lansdowne/Leinster)
7 - Dominic Gallagher (Dublin University/Ulster)
8 - Eoin McKeon (Galwegians/Connacht)

JJ Hanrahan was on the bench, and Tiernan O'Halloran didn't even make the squad! What a team that was, several provincial starters. Even just a year or two later it looks like one of the best underage teams we have had.

Conway has been very disappointing. He was arguably the best player in that 2011 team, and considering the talent in that team it is frustrating that he hasn't kicked on. I think he'll get there eventually though, he's only 21.

That is some team though. 8 or 9 (?) + TOH and Hanrahan to have played in the HC?

I had forgotten that Marmion was scrum-half then aswell.

Is Dominic Gallagher in the Ulster academy?? Think he's the only one I don't remember being involved in squads for senior teams.

Fishooks13

Higher wrote: »

Isnt that exactly what I said?

My point was that he gets hit with a load of injuries when Leinster were playing well and when he finally gets a run this season Leinster are awful. Leinster's try tally says it all tbh.

No, you placed heavy emphasis on injuries which haven't been present this season.

I don't think the lack of penetration in Leinster's backplay explains it all either. He just simply hasn't pregrossed at anywhere near the speed of Gilroy and Zebo, which is disapointing considering he was the best back we had U20's for two years.

Hopefully it's a case of him just getting to grips with the game at the top level because he's still a serious prospect

Fireball07

I would say confidence is the main factor, but injuries and Leinster's (relatively) poor play have been the causes of the drop in confidence.

Tox56

Fishooks13 wrote: »

No, you placed heavy emphasis on injuries which haven't been present this season.

I don't think the lack of penetration in Leinster's backplay explains it all either. He just simply hasn't pregrossed at anywhere near the speed of Gilroy and Zebo, which is disapointing considering he was the best back we had U20's for two years.

Hopefully it's a case of him just getting to grips with the game at the top level because he's still a serious prospect

And I would say injuries have played some part in that. It could be the case that he was simply thrown in too soon and needed time to bulk up (which he looks to have done this season). For a winger he really gets himself involved, so his body might not have been ready. Hopefully he will find his form again, I can't believe someone of his talent won't push on at some point.

Higher

Fishooks13 wrote: »

No, you placed heavy emphasis on injuries which haven't been present this season.

Of course the injuries are emphasized, its only been this season where hes got an uninterrupted run ffs. You seem to be just nit picking for the sake of it to be honest.

I don't think the lack of penetration in Leinster's backplay explains it all either. He just simply hasn't pregrossed at anywhere near the speed of Gilroy and Zebo, which is disapointing considering he was the best back we had U20's for two years.

Hopefully it's a case of him just getting to grips with the game at the top level because he's still a serious prospect

He simply hasn't progresssed like Gilroy or Zebo because hes been hit with injuries. Isnt that the point?

molloyjh

Fishooks13 wrote: »

No, you placed heavy emphasis on injuries which haven't been present this season.

I don't think the lack of penetration in Leinster's backplay explains it all either. He just simply hasn't pregrossed at anywhere near the speed of Gilroy and Zebo, which is disapointing considering he was the best back we had U20's for two years.

Hopefully it's a case of him just getting to grips with the game at the top level because he's still a serious prospect

He's been injured for almost 2 full seasons. You can't expect that not to have an impact. It's far easier to hit good form coming off the back of good form. It's a far different challenge to hit good form coming back from 2 years lay-off. Zebo and Gilroy just brought their confidence with them without any major setbacks. Conway has to find his again. You can't compare them because there's no way Conway could develop as quickly.

awec

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