NTA Map of Frequent Services

devnull

Nice to see a finally updated map:
http://transportforireland.ie/wp-content/uploads/Frequent_Services_A3.pdf

LXFlyer

Great to see.

stop

devnull wrote: »

Nice to see a finally updated map:
http://transportforireland.ie/wp-content/uploads/Frequent_Services_A3.pdf

Good to see.

Glad to see they were honest enough to keep the Cherrywood services separate.

markpb

Excellent map. My only (smally) gripes are that the 40/40d route at Finglas looks a bit confusing and the 11 with a 30 minute headway could hardly be considered frequent.

KD345

Great map, well designed. However, I too am wondering what constitutes a frequent route. For example, the 1 and 37 are more frequent than the 11 but these are omitted from the map. Its similar with the Swords Express and the 41C. The 41C has a far greater timetable but this is not listed. It might be nice to have a a map of frequent routes (up to every 15 mins) and a map of all routes.

It's great to finally have an official spider map and local service map for areas like Tallaght and Swords. Well done Transport For Ireland.

LXFlyer

One small error -
Docklands services do not serve Drumcondra station.

LXFlyer

KD345 wrote: »

Great map, well designed. However, I too am wondering what constitutes a frequent route. For example, the 1 and 37 are more frequent than the 11 but these are omitted from the map. Its similar with the Swords Express and the 41C. The 41C has a far greater timetable but this is not listed. It might be nice to have a a map of frequent routes (up to every 15 mins) and a map of all routes.

It's great to finally have an official spider map and local service map for areas like Tallaght and Swords. Well done Transport For Ireland.

I'd imagine a full bus map will issue in due course.

I'd add the 66/a/b to the map as a group - they're every 15 minutes too.

n97 mini

lxflyer wrote: »

One small error -
Docklands services do not serve Drumcondra station.

Also, with no trains at weekends and off peak week days you couldn't call it "frequent".

The_Wrecker

There appears to be no 1 or 47?

LXFlyer

Well the 47 is hardly frequent!!

noelfirl

lxflyer wrote: »

One small error -
Docklands services do not serve Drumcondra station.

The diamond symbol after "Commuter" is probably meant to reflect that. They could have made it easier for themselves by dragging the docklands line further to the left of Drumcondra and joining it to the mainline there.

I understand the idea of including the orbital routes 17a/18, but am not sure about the 18 being under a frequent services map - it's kind of but not quite. There's a bit of space if they were to consider experimenting with putting in some symbols to give an idea of frequency.

On the area maps, in the few I've looked at, the attempt to keep some semblance of geography, coupled with the thin lines leads to a huge amount of white space. You'd need to stretch to see some of the upper stuff if it was posted at bus stops.

lil5

lxflyer wrote: »

Well the 47 is hardly frequent!!

Neither is the 7 - in reality

dublinbusdude

Theres 6 routes missing from Tallaght!!! 49,54a, 65, 65b, 75 & 76

noelfirl

dublinbusdude wrote: »

Theres 6 routes missing from Tallaght!!! 49,54a, 65, 65b, 75 & 76

How many of those are frequent (i.e. in theory at least every 15-20 minutes)? As far as I can see, most are shown in the Tallaght local area map (bar the 65b for some reason).

KD345

The problem with only including frequent routes is that it can appear like some parts of the city don't have a frequent bus service, which isn't the case.

For example, looking at the map you'd assume there is no frequent bus route through places like Blanchardstown Village, Lucan Village and Raheny Village. However all these places have a high frequency service, it's just spread over a number of routes (38/a/39, 25,66/a/b/67 and 29a/31/a/b/32). Sandymount/Irishtown/Ringsend has an excellent frequency in the morning with the 1 and 47, but for some reason it's not included.

This map really highlights the lack of frequent orbital routes. If they're going to include the 18, they may as well throw in the 17 and 75 too.

dublinbusdude wrote: »

Theres 6 routes missing from Tallaght!!! 49,54a, 65, 65b, 75 & 76

They're not frequent routes. They are all, with the exception of the 65b, included in the Tallaght local map.

Conway635

I think there are too many main routes omitted. There is no logic to including the hourly Cherrywood projection of the 7, while excluding the 1 or the 37.

Plus, to not name Ballinteer (a major bus-dependent suburb) is strange.

5/10 for a first effort, but more needed.

C635

LXFlyer

There are a whole series of local maps now available also.

They can be found at www.transportforireland.ie/maps

Credit to the NTA for this and good to see they are using the spider maps that Dublin Bus started implementing - hopefully these will now be rolled out for the entire network and on street.

Aard

Fantastic first effort from the NTA. The local maps look great too.

I think there are a few too many routes on the Frequent Services map. They should adhere to a strict 15 minute frequency for most of the. The 14 for example definitely does not fit the bill of frequent routes. I'd like to see two maps in future: the comprehensive network, and an extremely limited frequent map. The latter should really be bare bones, like the metro maps of other cities with about ten key routes. I dont think theres any shame in this. In some places like the 25a/b routes these could be combined of course.

A more restricted map would also be far more user friendly imo.

This map now also provides a visual cue to the redundancy of the system. It might make people more amenable to route amalgamations in the future. Maybe this is just wishful thinking!

LXFlyer

The 14 is every 15 minutes in the morning and evening peaks - hence it is included as per the criteria here:

http://www.nationaltransport.ie/news/new-public-transport-maps-now-available-for-dublin/

Aard

Maybe their definition of frequent should be stricter then. My idea of a frequent services map would be that i could use any of the services on it from morning to early evening without a significant wait.

The frequent map has become quite popular in North America recently (LA, Vancouver, and Seattle come to mind) and they generally include the late-morning and afternoon lull in their frequency scope.

Like i said though, its a good first attempt, just that i think a more condensed map would be more user friendly.

markpb

lxflyer wrote: »

The 14 is every 15 minutes in the morning and evening peaks - hence it is included as per the criteria here

Like Aard says, most cities call a route frequent if it's frequent most of the day, not just for two limited windows.

schemingbohemia

Two limited windows where 70% (at least) of passenger journeys are done?

markpb

schemingbohemia wrote: »

Two limited windows where 70% (at least) of passenger journeys are done?

How useful will that map be to those people?

The_Wrecker

markpb wrote: »

How useful will that map be to those people?

To be honest they should be in the depots for the drivers, with all the changes many are stumped if a passengers requests anything beyond their own shed.

thomasj

On the blanchardstown map it lists the 270 as serving huntstown and blakestown. This is incorrect.

The west quays map lists the 70 as serving blanchardstown centre which is incorrect.

Chris_5339762

Looks nice, but maybe when six multicoloured routes go into one black route it should be a little more clear.

LXFlyer

That is pretty standard format for these kind of maps what exactly would you suggest?

The key to the map does explain the black lines.

Chris_5339762

A little curved line to show each of the six routes going into one would be better. As it stands, several lines look like they suddenly end.

Edit: The 15b doesn't serve Terenure either. The map implies it does. It joins up at Rathgar.

Victor

We're being watched.

.> .>

<. <.

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I'm wondering:


Key
Bus services
* Some colour pairings are poor, e.g. 11, 25a/b
* Aircoach on key, but not on map.


Rail services and Luas tram services
* Is there an argument to use ordinary font for "Commuter", "DART" and "Luas" or alternatively, use the actual system logos?

* "Stop served by certain journeys only" may not be the correct description for Docklands Station - it is a peak-time only station.


Transfer Points
* These pictograms aren't always used when there is a bus-rail transfer.
* "COMMUTER" should not be capitalised
* Pictogram for 'Ferry Port' is poor.


Points of Interest
* Ensure that 'Public Park' extends only to relevant stops.
* Add major trip generators.


The map
* Add other operators.
* Add outer services.
* Routes not shown should be included, but greyed out.
* Include the orbital routes like the 75 & 76.
* Expand the south west quadrant, such that Tallaght is in the corner and Crumlin is given a bit more space.
* Some rail station icons are wrong, e.g. Malahide, Portmarknock and Greystones normally give connections between commuter and DART services.
* Killester station name is too far away.
* Stations listed as "Heuston", "Connolly" and "Pearse", but "Grand Canal Dock Station" and "Rialto Tram Stop".
* No cross-platform bus connections at Shankill & Bray stations.
* The layout shown for Clontarf Road Station suggests a commuter connection.
* Change layout of Belgard Luas stop to emphasise the regular need to change trams.
* Red Cow Luas stop is a coach interchange point.
* Might it be useful to include route 53/b


The Index
* Not everywhere on the map is in the Index, e.g. Meakstown.


Spelling & Grammar (Map & Index)
Abbey St Abbey Street
Brehonfield Road Brehon Field Road
Comelscourt Cornelscourt
Inchmore Inchicore
Limeklin Limekiln
Lwr Abbey St Abbey Street Lower
Miltown Milltown
Palmerstown Wrong spelling, but in common usage
Parkwest Park West
Phibsboro Phibsborough
Popintree Poppintree
St Patricks St. Patrick's College
Vincent’s Hospital St. Vincent's Hospital


Problematic names (Map & Index)
Baggot Street (Grand Canal) ...
Longmile Longmile Road
Mobhi Mobhi Road
Oldorchard Possibly spurious name or Marian Park
Plunkett Plunkett Road (?)
Pearse Pearse Street (Sallynoggin)


Local maps
Include railways
Do they include every route in the locality?

noelfirl

If we are actually being watched...

- Add the 66 clutch of routes - they have an effective 15 minute frequency and only branch close to their outer ends.
- Overlay street names on the shared black routes in the city centre wherever possible, to give a better idea of where exactly these routes run. Where routes run by different streets depending on the direction but share a single black route on the map, delineate with arrows, e.g. <- Pearse St./Townsend St. ->
- It would be great if there was an idea of the frequencies for each route given (although without resorting to some gigantic table at the bottom). Then if the other orbital routes were included and the title of the map changed from "Frequent" to "Core", the map would give a better idea of the overall service available.

Victor

thomasj wrote: »

On the blanchardstown map it lists the 270 as serving huntstown and blakestown. This is incorrect.

You can walk from Bramblefield Court in Little Pace to Huntstown Wood.

noelfirl wrote: »

- It would be great if there was an idea of the frequencies for each route given (although without resorting to some gigantic table at the bottom). Then if the other orbital routes were included and the title of the map changed from "Frequent" to "Core", the map would give a better idea of the overall service available.

It could be put on the right hand side, as part of the Key.

Aard

Right so I've done a quick audit of the frequencies of routes. If the map is to be a proper "frequent services" as it is generally understood in the industry, then they need to restrict it to services that are also frequent in between the morning and evening peaks. There are a fair few DB routes which don't fit that criteria, which are nonetheless included on the map: 11, 14, 17a, 18, 29a, 40d, 41, 77a, 120, 122, 140, 150, 151. Now, I'm not suggesting that all of these be taken from the map. But a few of them are pushing it in the "frequent services" category. Obviously the 41 and its associated routes should be included, as well as the 140 and 77a, even though they don't strictly strictly adhere to the all-day frequency criteria.

The 11, 14, and 18 shouldn't be on the map. I'm not familiar with the 17a, but I'd wonder about it. The 120, 122, 150, and 151 all serve strategic routes, but again are they frequent enough to justify inclusion on the map? This isn't a "strategic routes" map. It's a "frequent routes" map. There's no "shame" as such in having a few areas that aren't served by very frequent bus routes. Even on the current map, there are gaps around parts of South Tallaght / Firhouse, as well as in Blackrock around Newpark.

If we've learnt anything from the Leapcard fiasco, it's that people need to be convinced to get behind this. There's no point in plastering these maps over bus stops, only to have people waiting 20-30 minutes for the 11 bus. They'll lose faith. Having a credible map means that people will use it. Also, there's no point in showing "Dublin Public Transport - Frequent Services" in big flashy writing, only to have an asterisk and "(only during peak hours)" tacked on the bottom. Let's be honest, and not pretend to have an awesome, comprehensive, every-15-minutes-all-day network.

Victor

Idle hands and all that.

Two versions of the main map attached

Greyed out version for marking up for comments and bus only version for easier reading.

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Hansfield train station isn't open yet, but is shown.

Kishoge train station isn't open yet, but isn't shown.

Coolmine Station -> Coolmine

Ashington is east of Ashtown station

Should North Bull Island be marked as a park?

Possibly emphasise where routes end, e.g. DART at Malahide, by bolding and extending commuter arrow further.

Move the 151 icon at Docklands station closer to the bus stop, i.e. put it south of the road.

Drumcondra station should have a commuter icon.

Make the coast more geographically accurate, e.g. the railway should be right next to the coast from Booterstown to Dún Laoghaire.

Physically separate Cherrywood and Shankill more. Shankill is south of Cherrywood.

Tara Street Station is not on Tara Street. Tara Street has no bus stops.

Route 79a operates beyond Park West & Cherry Orchard Station.

Does the 77a actually serve Citywest Campus Luas stop? Note that the Luas stop is away from the office area.

rusty1052

Hi Guys - It's not a bad first start for the transport guys but I do agree that the idea of the routes shown as the most frequent is slightly misleading.

Having completed my own Frequent Transport map, in which I used average all day Mon-Fri frequency of service according to timetable to determine single services (not combined like the 25a/b/c) that conform to a 15 minute of less frequency. You end up with 15 of service routes plus the luas.

Anyway some of you maybe interested, I started to make a map over 18 months ago at this stage, based on the idea of a frequency based map. You can view it / download it at: cbroderick.me/pages/dublin_complete_map

It's no where near finished, and very much out of date by now given the amalgamation / discontinuation of certain routes. Very hard to maintain, mainly due to the fact it is entirely drawn on illustrator, so if anyone has any better ideas of how to do this i'd love to hear it! It was probably 60% there at the time.
C