Ever embarrassed by video game excesses?

Josey Wales

I've been playing The Darkness II recently and I'm enjoying it so far. I'm only about an hour in but I can see myself sticking with it to the end. It has though got me thinking about how excessively violent it is and about the amount of bad language. Normally I don't mind violence or language in games but there is something about the level of it in this game that is irritating me.

I have my consoles set up on the living room on the main TV so my wife will at some stage sit down and see me play through a game. This is the first game I've played in front of her that is making me self-conscious. So much so that I shut it down once I got to the next checkpoint last night.

Stabbing dudes in the face in Assassin's Creed seems so tame in comparison. Anyone ever feel like this or have a game they have a real problem with?

saiint

nope

because its a GAME
you shouldnt feel embarrassed , unless its like gta and theirs nude girls going around everywere :L thats when your wife should start worrying
if anything cursing or killing in a game is nothing unless you have very low tolerence for cursing at all and unless you think a game actually makes you think you want to kill someone after watching you kill someone in a game 1000's of times over and over again (unless your mentally ill)

but i dont mind
me family , my friends , my gf (she hates games anyway) , and their familys
dont care
the world is changing
infact the only people now a days who would have a problem with it are people from 2 generations ago since their more old style. although my granda does have a sense of humor when it comes to playing mario :L now thats when i get embarrassed

GRMA

Yeah there are some games that I dont like because of stuff like that, GTA San Andreas was one of the main offenders. That was a glorification of gang culture -you can be sure that influenced gobsh!tes into going out and doing similar. I'm not talking about anyone on here btw After I realised that young americans were probably inspired by the game to join local gangs the enjoyment went out of it for me.

Plus try explaining to someone who knows nothing about games that you just killed that hooker to get your money back lol

By and large I think sex is unnecessary in games. Anyone remember Farenheit where you you make the character thrust in the missionary position by pressing the analog stick forward? That was unnecessary. Just have them go into the bedroom and close the door

In a more general sense on the whole I'm embarrassed by computer games depiction of women, scantily clad and big boobed usually.

Zillah

GRMA wrote: »

In a more general sense on the whole I'm embarrassed by computer games depiction of women, scantily clad and big boobed usually.

I groaned in embarrassment at the lady card collecting in The Witcher.

aN.Droid

GRMA wrote: »

Yeah there are some games that I dont like because of stuff like that, GTA San Andreas was one of the main offenders. That was a glorification of gang culture -you can be sure that influenced gobsh!tes into going out and doing similar. I'm not talking about anyone on here btw After I realised that young americans were probably inspired by the game to join local gangs the enjoyment went out of it for me.

Plus try explaining to someone who knows nothing about games that you just killed that hooker to get your money back lol

By and large I think sex is unnecessary in games. Anyone remember Farenheit where you you make the character thrust in the missionary position by pressing the analog stick forward? That was unnecessary. Just have them go into the bedroom and close the door

In a more general sense on the whole I'm embarrassed by computer games depiction of women, scantily clad and big boobed usually.

I started the Limerick chapter of the grove street gang. In fairness all we did though was jump up and down on our bikes trying to get to the next level so we could jump higher.

Lordhogo

I would consider your situation to be fairly similar to if I was watching a gory horror like SAW for instance and a family member walked in. The only difference I see and yes it is a major difference is that it is often your decision to make those excesses happen. Wouldn't you feel uncomfortable if a toddler walked in while you were watching a bloody gunfight on t.v. or in a movie.

When I had seen just the title I had thought you meant am I embarrassed when I play games in excess. As in when I tell a friend I happily spent 3-4 hours last night on my Xbox, sometimes I am embarrassed.

degrassinoel

Josey, sounds like you need a mancave

Retr0gamer

Been embarrassed by gaming quite a bit. The first time I remember it was the infamous scene in FF8 when the guys discuss how they had all known each other from birth but forgot because of their GFs. It was so bad that I felt embarassed for ever thinking these FF games had good stories.

Another moment was the laughing scene in FFX. It was such a cringe scene that I was praying nobody would walk in and see what I was watching.

I've had this same feeling a few times mostly with the MGS series. In MGS2 when Otacon was crying or when the bomb disposal expert revealed he could actually walk the dialogue was so awful that I felt embarrassed that I was playing this game and again was hoping nobody would see me playing it.

Happened again in MGS4, actually it happened a lot in that game. The cutscenes, dialogue and over the top stupid action bits were so terrible that during each cutscene I was praying nobody would see I was playing it. It didn't help that they were so long. In fact my brother walked into the room during a dreadful cutscene in the game (raiden stopping that big ship single handed) and my friend called over to see the game during the end of chapter 3 with Ocelot on the boat. These are some of the worst cutscenes I've ever experienced in a game and I actually went bright red because people were there to see my play that crap!

Heavy Rain was another offender, bad dialogue, ropey acting and the really immature use of nudity had me embarrassed.

I'm not sure what it is that gets me embarrassed, I guess I like games a lot and I'm always trying to justify why I like them to people that think they are a waste of time so when I see a high profile game like MGS4 or Heavy Rain which is doing everything wrong and totally justifying why these people don't understand videogames and see them as a throwaway from of entertainment that I get embarrassed. I don't mind at all when a game is just daft like Devil May Cry or Shadow Warrior but when a game is being serious and doing it terrible I have a problem.

Actually Duke Nukem Forever was another embarrassing moment for me. Every awful failed attempt at humour made me cringe especially when it was just plain offensive.

GTR63

Any time I picked up a playboy in Mafia II people seemed to be around to see the centrefold and my embarrassment. A lot of sex scenes in games, scratch that all are humiliating to watch, who thinks they are a good idea anyway.

Marsden

Sleeping dogs seemed fairly good until I had to sing Kareoke to a girl on date level, pretty lame and hard to explain to the wife why I was doing it. I'm still perplexed meself why they bother to put sh1te like this in games.

J. Marston

Marsden wrote: »

Sleeping dogs seemed fairly good until I had to sing Kareoke to a girl on date level, pretty lame and hard to explain to the wife why I was doing it. I'm still perplexed meself why they bother to put sh1te like this in games.

Karaoke in Sleeping Dogs is great. One of the better mini-games I've seen in open world games.

Sex in games is just weird. It's just strange and cringey in videogame form.

Josey Wales

degrassinoel wrote: »

Josey, sounds like you need a mancave

That is the long-term plan. I have permission to convert the attic into a home-cimema/mancave. Can't wait.

Skerries

I felt terrible when I was playing prototype because to stay alive you have to absorb the life-force out of ordinary people, it was alright later on when they became zombies tough
or when you possessed someone you were essentially killing them for their memories

Not The Real Scarecrow

+1 on the card collecting in the Witcher,but can't say Ive ever been embaressed by anything in a game.Usually play in the sitting room with the wife reading or on the laptop and anytime anything cringe worthy comes up ,we both have a good giggle about it(sex scene in Far Cry 3 being the most recent).
Only thing I ever remember being abit dumb struck about was a Serbian Movie, when he

Shagged the son and blood was squirting out of is bum

, was a quiet room after the movie was finished.
Oh, and Legend of the Overfiend was another one she wasn't too keen on.

Deano7788

The sex minigame in God of War. I was just hoping my family wouldn't hear when I triggered it.

mikom

The dates in San Andreas.
Good Jesus but they were painful.

zero19

Duke Nukem Forever. All of it.

Burkey0

Tidus laughing

Not the way it was done, it was meant to be forced (I think). The excess is just that it was kind of awkwardly loud

Retr0gamer

It wasn't the actors fault, look up the japanese version. If anything its worse!

Mr.Nice Guy

How about 50 Cent: Blood on the Sand. The kind of game that gives the industry a bad rep, as noted by Charlie Brooker:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CGC8fO8uAOA

Retr0gamer

Blood on the Sand is surprisingly decent. It's a load of nonsense but it knows it is and it very tongue in cheek about it and is a surprisingly playable load of nonsense at that.

Banjo

I play pokémon at my desk at work. I am beyond being embarrassed by games. Although the mother - son reunion in the finale of house of the dead overkill on the Wii did make me glance sideways to see if my wife was packing a suitcase. Oh, and once when I was walking around San Andreas dressed in a gimp suit and beating civilians to death with a 3ft long dildo for cash and car keys I did find myself questioning how I'd crossed the line without noticing that the line was there.

Harps

Bayonetta cutscenes..

Always turned the volume right down if there was anyone else in the house

krudler

any of the Dead Or Alive games

Duggy747

Any game that featured women wearing next to nothing and having horrible innuendo for dialogue.

Basically being fantasy sex objects.


Plus, any love / romantic scenes in gaming. The technology isn't there yet so don't make characters kiss, it's like putting a Barbie & Ken together with their stiffness.

krudler

Duggy747 wrote: »

Any game that featured women wearing next to nothing and having horrible innuendo for dialogue.

Basically being fantasy sex objects.


Plus, any love / romantic scenes in gaming. The technology isn't there yet so don't make characters kiss, it's like putting a Barbie & Ken together with their stiffness.

Uncharted is one of the few series that gets female characters right, witty, intelligent women who aren't purely there for T&A. How many other franchises have a middle aged woman as the main villain. Gaming needs to grow up big time when it comes to portraying female characters.

Funglegunk

Some hilariously bad video game dialogue (and voice acting) in this clip:

Shiminay

GRMA wrote: »

In a more general sense on the whole I'm embarrassed by computer games depiction of women, scantily clad and big boobed usually.

This +1000

When I saw Bayonetta I was mortified - the bigger the combo, the more of her clothes she removes? Who thought that was a good idea?

Potential-Monke

Most of my work colleagues get embarrassed for me knowing that i play games in general. That's what embarrasses me, that i have a large collection of friends who think gaming in general is embarrassing. The same group of friends who watch crap like the X-Factor, Jersey Shore, or any other tripe that's on tv these days.

Grumpypants

lots of Japanese games have shocking dialogue. MGS, bayonetta, V Chronicles to name a few that are just plain embarrassing. Dumb stories and aweful characters too.

But mainly its any sex scene they just don't work.

Reekwind

The best thing about Blood in the Sand is that it gave us this gem:


But yes, I fully agree with those complaining about the cringworthy depiction of women in games. Vampire:Bloodlines was a fantastic game but seeing a schoolgirl (or, more accurately, a model shoved into bits of a schoolgirl's outfit) draped across the game's box was just embarassing

Duggy747

FarCry 3 is a great game but, good grief, it had a woeful story and dialogue (Bar Vaas, he was a nuts character who fitted into the universe perfectly)

I play games on the HTPC which is in the sitting room so whenever the GF is around that's when all the awful dialogue and cheesy bits happen.

It's like when you're watching a standard movie, your parents enter the room and then, for no apparent reason, a sex scene shows up on the telly.

Retr0gamer

I wouldn't even say uncharted has good female characters considering they penchant for getting kidnapped. Very few games do female characters well.

We need Sega to take Rieko Kodama out of whatever basement they have her locked in to give us some more phantasy star style female characters.

Burning Eclipse

krudler wrote: »

Uncharted is one of the few series that gets female characters right, witty, intelligent women who aren't purely there for T&A. How many other franchises have a middle aged woman as the main villain. Gaming needs to grow up big time when it comes to portraying female characters.

Amy Hennig is the reason why

I played God of War 3 recently, and while I enjoyed it, I was genuinely embarrassed by some of the gratuitous nudity and violence in it. Couldn't play it in front of my wife.

hooradiation

The fact that #1ReasonWhy was even a thing.


Not sure if it's an "excess" though.

Potential-Monke

Just on the nudity point, especially in God of War, around that time in real life, public nude bathing was common and accecptable, and nudity was something that was not frowned upon and a lot of male sports were done in the nip (the Greek word Gymnasium literally means "a place to train naked"). So, although the nudity wasn't required, a mixture of attempt at era-portrayal and pandering to the youths looking for digitised boobies made them include it imo. Plus, it was an attempt (a bad one at that) to show just how manly Kratos really was.

who_me

I always find it weird that people have more of a problem with sex in games than violence. Even if it's a cringiness argument rather than moralising... Is storming a D-day beach single-handed while being shot dozens of times any less ridiculous or silly?

Still... I always find it disappointing that game creators create wonderfully detailed, intricate worlds, with amazingly realistic animation; then give that game silly obvious plotlines in order to make the game easy and understandable to everyone. Gaming could - and probably should - be an entertainment and artistic medium up there with TV, movies and music. Yet, who won the gaming equivalent of the Oscars/Grammys?

Potential-Monke

Thing is, making a game easy for the masses usually gets more sales than something harder (Dark Souls). Apparently a great game by this forums standards, but too punishing for the masses to enjoy.

Reekwind

who_me wrote: »

I always find it weird that people have more of a problem with sex in games than violence. Even if it's a cringiness argument rather than moralising... Is storming a D-day beach single-handed while being shot dozens of times any less ridiculous or silly?

Yes. There's a difference between a male power fantasy and a male power fantasy that reduces women to the role of simpering glamour models. If people want to play at being Rambo then that's 100% okay, once the presence of strong male characters doesn't preclude the existence of strong female equivalents

And to be clear: the problem is not sex per se. It's the puerile representation of sex and women that I find embarrassing. I'm not so much worried about people walking in on me and finding a sex scene as them asking 'why has that woman got beachballs sown to her chest?'

ahnowbrowncow

Reekwind wrote: »

Yes. There's a difference between a male power fantasy and a male power fantasy that reduces women to the role of simpering glamour models. If people want to play at being Rambo then that's 100% okay, once the presence of strong male characters doesn't preclude the existence of strong female equivalents

And to be clear: the problem is not sex per se. It's the puerile representation of sex and women that I find embarrassing. I'm not so much worried about people walking in on me and finding a sex scene as them asking 'why has that woman got beachballs sown to her chest?'

So you're alright with killing hundreds of people in a game as long as women appear strong, you're priorities are a bit messed up

Reekwind

ahnowbrowncow wrote: »

So you're alright with killing hundreds of people in a game as long as women appear strong, you're priorities are a bit messed up

I've got absolutely no problem with most violence on screen, whether it be a computer monitor or in the cinema. Why should I?

Computer game violence typically says absolutely nothing of note, nor does it pretend to. It is, as I say above, harmless escapism. Me, big space marine, me shoot many bad aliens. I don't see how anyone can get worked up by that; unless they're some Mary Whitehouse figure who gets worked up when Commando is shown at Christmas

The portrayal of women in games is a different matter entirely. When you make the above violence gender-specific (ie men shoot things, women are sexy and get captured) then, yes, I have a problem. This ceases to be simple escapism and instead becomes nothing more than an adolescent power fantasy. I find that to be cringeworthy, as I've said above

ahnowbrowncow

Reekwind wrote: »

I've got absolutely no problem with most violence on screen, whether it be a computer monitor or in the cinema. Why should I?

Computer game violence typically says absolutely nothing of note, nor does it pretend to. It is, as I say above, harmless escapism. Me, big space marine, me shoot many bad aliens. I don't see how anyone can get worked up by that; unless they're some Mary Whitehouse figure who gets worked up when Commando is shown at Christmas

The portrayal of women in games is a different matter entirely. When you make the above violence gender-specific (ie men shoot things, women are sexy and get captured) then, yes, I have a problem. This ceases to be simple escapism and instead becomes nothing more than an adolescent power fantasy. I find that to be cringeworthy, as I've said above

What I can't understand is what is it that makes the women in the game something of note but violence is nothing of note? How is it a completely different matter? They are both fictional, virtual or whatever you want to call it. And is killing hundreds of people not a power fantasy then?

For some unknown reason you are making a distinction between the two where I fail to see one.

Reekwind

Um, because violence isn't people...?

As I said in my above post, if somebody wants to pretend to be Rambo then fine, let them. It's not necessarily how I like to escape everyday life but each to their own. Until, that is, that person's power fantasy starts to demean others. If you can't play as Rambo without reducing all the women in game to the role of sex dolls (if only because that's the reality that the game presents you with) then yes, we have a problem. It's called misogyny and I don't like seeing it in games or draped over marketing materials*

Now I don't believe that you can demean/infantilise/objectify/whatever violence in the same way. How could you? Again, violence isn't people. Conflating the two (ie gender sterotypes and violence) would only make sense if you have some moral aversion to both, witness the already name-checked Mary Whitehouse. I don't; I don't have an issue with most violence in games and you've not explained to me why I should

*Or, the thankfully less blatantly common, racism in games

Banjo

You can't have a Rambo power fantasy moment without reducing the role of whatever race you're attacking (and yes, I'm including the Strogg in that) to that of a bullet ridden rag doll. It's equally demeaning. The enemy are easy prey for your machine gun. The women are easy prey for your love gun. It's all the same but since the enemy are usually men and men are not allowed to feel marginalised somehow the non-sexual power fantasy is ok.

So, Women as sex dolls, I'm confused - why is it ok to have all of the men portrayed as generic idealised physical specimens but not the women? Nobody wants to watch ugly people on screen*unless the drama is character driven, and games are typically event driven. Therefore the people in them should be beautiful unless they're villains, and even then Villains are allowed to be good looking as long as they have an obvious villain trait such as a scar, cybernetic yoke stuck to their face, odd coloured hair or are over 35.

*this is a huge generalisation based on decades of watching films and TV and seeing what sh!te seems to sell well, what actors do well and what roles they're in. I'm not an expert, but neither is Barry Scott and people listen to him....

ahnowbrowncow

Reekwind wrote: »

Um, because violence isn't people...?

As I said in my above post, if somebody wants to pretend to be Rambo then fine, let them. It's not necessarily how I like to escape everyday life but each to their own. Until, that is, that person's power fantasy starts to demean others. If you can't play as Rambo without reducing all the women in game to the role of sex dolls (if only because that's the reality that the game presents you with) then yes, we have a problem. It's called misogyny and I don't like seeing it in games or draped over marketing materials*

Now I don't believe that you can demean/infantilise/objectify/whatever violence in the same way. How could you? Again, violence isn't people. Conflating the two (ie gender sterotypes and violence) would only make sense if you have some moral aversion to both, witness the already name-checked Mary Whitehouse. I don't; I don't have an issue with most violence in games and you've not explained to me why I should

*Or, the thankfully less blatantly common, racism in games

Yes I know "violence isn't people", racism or sexism isn't people either. They are all nouns.

I don't understand how you can think sexism and racism is worse than violence. They are all fictional so if you think one is bad then why don't you think they are all bad?

I think you're being hypersensitive to sexism.

Reekwind

Banjo wrote: »

You can't have a Rambo power fantasy moment without reducing the role of whatever race you're attacking (and yes, I'm including the Strogg in that) to that of a bullet ridden rag doll. It's equally demeaning

For some reason I don't really care about the portrayal of aliens, robots, Nazis or whoever the nameless mook of the week is. Nor do I see the need to compare female characters to Stroggs or nouns

And of course there are cases of violence where it is unacceptable. Mowing down innocent civilians requires a very strong artistic justification to pull off. Shooting children had traditionally been unacceptable in FPSs. More likely to appear, and genuinely morally questionable, is playing as a white guy mowing mowing legions of black mooks

The women are easy prey for your love gun

That's a statement that's going to linger in my head for for some time. And for all the wrong reasons. It pretty much sums up what I find so cringeworthy about some games

So, Women as sex dolls, I'm confused - why is it ok to have all of the men portrayed as generic idealised physical specimens but not the women?

Having a massively muscled space marine storm an enemy citadel and rescue a princess with beachballs where beasts should be is a male fantasy. Having a similarly proportioned witch who loses clothes as she fights is a male fantasy. Having your character sleep (or at least flit shamelessly with, it's been a while) with a buxom stripper/schoolgirl is a male fantasy. Repeatedly rescuing a feisty yet oddly passive female sidekick/love-interest from the jaws of terror is a male fantasy. You see the trend here?

ahnowbrowncow wrote:

I don't understand how you can think sexism and racism is worse than violence. They are all fictional so if you think one is bad then why don't you think they are all bad?

That makes no sense. I think dragons are fictional but I don't automatically assume that dragons are bad. I think Gordon Freeman is a fictional character but I really want to see him on my screen again. DNF was fictional but that didn't stop it being a misogynistic mess. In short: these characters/games/tropes have to be evaluated in their own right and can't be lumped into one just because they're "all fictional". Similarly, I have no idea why you continue to treat violence and sexism as the same thinf

Frankly I think you're just being deliberately obtuse here. You've not explained by fictional violence is bad (despite repeated requests to) and you've not established why having violence in games automatically excuses sexism and misogyny

ahnowbrowncow

Reekwind wrote: »

That makes no sense. I think dragons are fictional but I don't automatically assume that dragons are bad. I think Gordon Freeman is a fictional character but I really want to see him on my screen again.

Mother of god. I'll have to go slow here.

I have no idea why you continue to treat violence and sexism as the same thinf

I'm not treating them as the same thing, violence is worse than sexism, but in games neither are real so I couldn't give a rats ass about either of them, why do you???

You've not explained by fictional violence is bad (despite repeated requests to)

I'm guessing you mean why, where did I say fictional violence is bad??? Please show me.

What I did say was that if you think sexism (what you perceive to be sexism anyway and it's not real either) in games is bad why don't you care about violence in games. Once again, neither are real. But if you are going to get your panties in a twist about one of them I would have thought it'd be the more serious of the two, violence.

you've not established why having violence in games automatically excuses sexism and misogyny

I never said it excuses sexism, what I said was that if you think sexism is bad why don't you think violence is bad???

Sexism in games is no more real than the violence or the zombies/dragons/monsters so why do you give a crap about just sexism in games?????????????????????????????????????????????????

Syferus

Something being 'fictional' isn't a valid reason why someone shouldn't care about the message or image it sends out. That's a terrible, terrible argument to make.

ahnowbrowncow

Syferus wrote: »

Something being 'fictional' isn't a valid reason why someone shouldn't care about the message or image it sends out. That's a terrible, terrible argument to make.

But gamers make the argument that violence in games is fictional, doesn't have any impact on them and therefore doesn't have any significance in the real world so why should this supposed sexism in games be any different? Because violence is obviously worse than sexism so if violence is grand so should sexism. And characters having big boobs isn't even sexism.

It's just hypersensitivity to female sexism.

Banjo

Reekwind wrote: »

You see the trend here?

Yes, I do. The makers of games are doing an excellent job of pandering to their target market.

Should their target market be exclusively randy violent teenage boys? That's an argument for when I'm not typing on my phone!

Reekwind

ahnowbrowncow wrote: »

Mother of god. I'll have to go slow here

Don't give me that nonsense. You are the person who has explicitly linked sexism and violence on the basis of them both being fictional (?) and you're the one who's been dragging us down this hole of incomprehension. Look at what you're saying:

"I'm not treating them as the same thing... but in games neither are real so I couldn't give a rats ass about either of them"

So these are apparently two completely separate things but we can lump them together and talk about in the same breath because some games have fictional representations of both. Contradictory, no? Now I don't know why you've done this because no one else here is suggesting that the impact of violence and the impact of misogyny in computer games is the same

I'm not treating them as the same thing, violence is worse than sexism, but in games neither are real so I couldn't give a rats ass about either of them, why do you???

Please read my posts above. Violence is a concept, an action. Women are real. Ethnic minorities are real. I don't particularly care how one person kills another person on a screen because, nine times out of ten, it's of absolutely no relevance to the real world. This is not the same in the case of chronic portrayals of women as simpering damsels who exist merely to loom pretty. Man is strong, woman is weak. On the most basic possible level, without even getting into a broader discussion on gender roles, this sort of adolescent worldview in games gives the industry a bad name and makes me cringe. Why? Because it's the sort of thing that most men grow out of when they finish school and realise that there's more to the opposite sex than tits and ass

In short, I don't see the harm in shooting a fictional alien in the face; I do see the harm in games portraying women as mindless bimbos. How is that difficult to get?

I'm guessing you mean why, where did I say fictional violence is bad??? Please show me.

Then why on earth are you harping on about it? Why are you insisting that it's worse or "more serious" than sexism? I've made it pretty clear that I don't care about violence in games, that I don't see the point of discussing violence in games (in conjunction with sexism) but you keep dragging us back without explaining why anyone here should care. Last time: why should I get my "panties in a twist" over violence in games?

Sexism in games is no more real than the violence or the zombies/dragons/monsters so why do you give a crap about just sexism in games?????????????????????????????????????????????????

I don't know if you're trolling or simple. Misogyny doesn't exist in games? Why? Because they portray a fictional environment? Or because you're fine with having misogyny on screen?

I guess that no film can be racist either. Because none of it's real, right? It all happens in imagination land. Actually, I'm not going to have this discussion with you. Not someone who trots out this "female sexism" line. That'd be a waste of time

Banjo wrote:

Yes, I do. The makers of games are doing an excellent job of pandering to their target market.

And that's the problem. The industry is peddling fantasies to 'randy teenage boys' while ignoring those who a) aren't teenagers or b) aren't male. And that's embarrassing when you're playing a game as man in his late twenties

I don't even think it's a market thing though so much as it is a developer issue. But, as you say, that's another discussion for another time