PSCS For Domestic Alterations

atech

With all the discussions on the proposed amendment to the building control act I'm surprised I haven't seen any discussion on any forums on the proposed amendment to the SAFETY, HEALTH AND WELFARE AT WORK REGULATIONS 2012

http://www.hsa.ie/eng/Legislation/New_Legislation/si4610f2012.pdf

This deletes regulation 6 paragraph 6 which stated : "the Act does not apply to or in respect of a project if" .... "a person commissions or procures the project in relation to the person’s domestic dwelling"

This means that all domestic design work from next June on will require a PSDP and all domestic construction work will need a PSCS.

Between this, the changes to the building control act and the proposed levy on building materials to pay for the pyrite I'll be amazed if we ever get any new construction happening in this country.

DOCARCH

Yip....on the cards/coming down the track alright for all works (important to reiterate, including for house extensions, etc.).

As far as I am aware, the 30 day rule and/or 500 man hour criteria will still apply, but after that, building owners carrying out any building works will have to appoint a PSDP and PSCS.

I have heard (through the grapevine) that the new Building Control Act will be signed by the minister in January.

I can just imagine the calls to Joe Duffy when people realise what's in store!

atech

Do you know what the situation is with regards the date these regs take effect if a planning application has been submitted prior to June for instance?

Will their be a certain amount of time given to get the building to substantial completion for example before a PSCS is required?

DOCARCH

atech wrote: »

Do you know what the situation is with regards the date these regs take effect if a planning application has been submitted prior to June for instance?

Will their be a certain amount of time given to get the building to substantial completion for example before a PSCS is required?

Sorry, I don't know, but I'm sure there will be some transitional arrangements.

atech

Found some additional info for anyone interested:

http://consultation.hsa.ie/general-applications/ConstructionRegulation2013/Homeowners%20Guide%20with%20Checklist.pdf

archtech

The regs will bring an additional cost but if they save lives it will be worth it. Apparently in the last 3 year 11 people died on domestic construction sites. I seen some very unsafe practices occur on domestic sites.... Unsafe scaffolding, unguarded opes in floors etc the legalisation should cut out some of the cowboy builders . I can't see it adding too much extra to the cost of work undertaken by a good competent builder.

One thing the regs will do is drive home to the home owner their responsibility For the safety of the site and will possibly make many think twice about going down the direct labour route.

sydthebeat

any competent builder should be PSCS qualified anyway... i cant see this adding too much extra costs onto a build.

archtech

sydthebeat wrote: »

any competent builder should be PSCS qualified anyway... i cant see this adding too much extra costs onto a build.

There will however be the cost of the PSDP and the duties associated with that. Compiling a safety file could be fun but should be of great benefit to the home owner if its done correctly.

DOCARCH

sydthebeat wrote: »

any competent builder should be PSCS qualified anyway... i cant see this adding too much extra costs onto a build.

True.

But...I doubt many builders doing your average kitchen extension are? So they are going to have to gear up in terms of training, safe passes, etc., etc. A hard hat is a rare sight on domestic jobs!!!

atech

sydthebeat wrote: »

any competent builder should be PSCS qualified anyway... i cant see this adding too much extra costs onto a build.

I see the safety benefit in new builds or large extensions as Archtech has said but I don't know anyone that employs main contractors to refit kitchens, install en-suite bathrooms, build a small porch, etc.
As far as I can see all these type projects will require a PSDP and PSCS now if more than 2 disciplines will be used, roofer/blocklayer, electrician/plumber, etc.

sydthebeat

atech wrote: »

.... to refit kitchens, install en-suite bathrooms, build a small porch, etc.
....

30 working days or 500 man hours?? i doubt what youve described above would be applicable.

atech

sydthebeat wrote: »

30 working days or 500 man hours?? i doubt what youve described above would be applicable.

See the second last page in the link in post #5

Is more than one contractor involved? Yes= Project Supervisor

These jobs would be considered 'direct labour' so plumber = first contractor; electrician = second contractor

martinn123

DOCARCH wrote: »

But...I doubt many builders doing your average kitchen extension are? So they are going to have to gear up in terms of training, safe passes, etc., etc. A hard hat is a rare sight on domestic jobs!!!

Depends if they are carrying any Insurance, probably, a claim where no hard hat, boots etc will not go far.

Did a Safe Pass a few years ago, total joke.
Told it would end with Multiple Choice Test.
So every time the Trainer said, '' so pay special attention to this section'' we all knew a question on that was in the test.

Anyone who failed, got a second chance, alone with the Trainer, obviously he only got paid for a ''Pass''.

99% was common sense, ''Money Generating Scam'', or a
''Tax on the Polish Lads''

Hear the Professional Driver Annual Course is exactly the same.

So if the Householder is responsible, will he have to go on a course, suppose that will be next.

sinnerboy

atech wrote: »

Is more than one contractor involved? Yes= Project Supervisor . These jobs would be considered 'direct labour' so plumber = first contractor; electrician = second contractor

I think technically this is correct. I am paraphrasing an expert work colleague now so I can't give chapter and verse but here goes - This provision is being "fast tracked" to avoid fines from Brussels , respective govts. having ignored the relevant EU directive for some years. So that will explain the cak-handed look to it. There will be a chance to have published detailed and considered regulations arising from Public Consultations.

Rant Warning


Everyone can make comments to the authorities now. But very few will. Prediction - we will get flooded with posts on this matter here by those who will complain that "no one told them about this" . If you want to impact this - make your comments known to the HSA , not just on here.

atech

I think the closing date for public comments was Dec 14th unfortunately.

archtech

Submissions closed on Friday last 14th December. Mind you I'm sure they might take on board any they received in the next day or so.

http://consultation.hsa.ie/general-applications/ConstructionRegulation2013/

sinnerboy

atech wrote: »

I think the closing date for public comments was Dec 14th unfortunately.

Big red face on me so....

con1982

Sorry for dragging up an old thread but the changes are coming into force as of June this year.

Just trying to get my head around how this will affect all of the stakeholders in domestic construction. The three key stakeholders being the Client, the Builder and the Designer (Architect and/or Engineer, etc).

For the Client I see the benefit of a Safety File at the end of the job. Maybe the Client will think twice about cash in hand work or project managing direct labour (although nothing necessarily wrong with direct labour, assuming the Client has a good working knowledge of the industry).

For the Builder there is additional paperwork. Chasing down sub-contractors. I'd imagine the O&M manual will be incorporated into a final handover document to the Client. I wonder if their insurance will go up to cover PSCS liabilities? For the less organised Builder, I'm not too sure how they will manage the change. Will it be piece meal or generic bulk H&S responses?

The Designer, assuming they are ultimately PSDP, will have more paperwork. Probably existing insurances will cover PSDP liabilities. Dealing with the less organised Builder could prove troublesome. Will this change the Designers mindset when discussing appointments and recommending Builders for tendering?

Overall I think site safety will improve, but not markedly. Costs will probably increase slightly to cover administration of the process.

What does everyone else think? Will there be winners and losers?

vwlt

Any ideas on how this will affect projects which commenced prior to June 1st ?

con1982

vwlt wrote: »

Any ideas on how this will affect projects which commenced prior to June 1st ?

I always find it difficult to follow the language and structure of Statutory Instruments, however it seems to me that the change doesn't impose a duty on the Client until after the amended Regulations come into effect.

2012 Amendment to the regulations
http://www.djei.ie/employment/osh/SHWWcontructionamendmentregs2012.pdf

---

(
b
) in Regulation 6—
(i) in paragraph (1) by substituting “in paragraph (5)” for “in para-
graphs (5) and (6)”,
(ii) by deleting paragraph (6), and
(iii) by inserting the following after paragraph (7):
“(8) An appointment under paragraph (1) does not operate
to affect any duty imposed on the client before the making of
these Regulations by or under any enactment.”;

---

Where Regulation 6 refers to the duty of the Client to appoint a Project Supervisor

hexosan

vwlt wrote: »

Any ideas on how this will affect projects which commenced prior to June 1st ?

Just done a bit of googling on this and it seems to suggest that if work commences before June 1st you are exempt for 12 months. I'm open to correction on this.

hexosan

Does anyone know how this will affect the self builder going down the direct labour route.
If there is no main contractor how do you appoint a PSCS, is it possible to appoint yourself (the self builder) as the PSCS and if so what would the implications of this mean.

DOCARCH

hexosan wrote: »

Does anyone know how this will affect the self builder going down the direct labour route.
If there is no main contractor how do you appoint a PSCS, is it possible to appoint yourself (the self builder) as the PSCS and if so what would the implications of this mean.

If you are going self build route, you have to appoint independent PSCS...I suppose you could appoint yourself...if...you are qualified to act as PSCS.

Bear in mind that it is not always the contractor who acts as PSCS, even where there is a main contrcator appointed, some contractors will bring in an outside PSCS.

Poor Uncle Tom

DOCARCH wrote: »

If you are going self build route, you have to appoint independent PSCS...I suppose you could appoint yourself...if...you are qualified to act as PSCS.

Bear in mind that it is not always the contractor who acts as PSCS, even where there is a main contrcator appointed, some contractors will bring in an outside PSCS.

This isn't a case of the PSCS goes to XXX by default if one hasn't been appointed. In this case the PSCS has to be appointed, it's just that it's normal to nominate and to have the main contractor assume the mantle of being the PSCS. This makes sense where there is other 'supervision' on site anyway, but for these smaller projects it is necessary to have independent project supervision at construction stage.

hexosan

DOCARCH wrote: »

If you are going self build route, you have to appoint independent PSCS...I suppose you could appoint yourself...if...you are qualified to act as PSCS.

Bear in mind that it is not always the contractor who acts as PSCS, even where there is a main contrcator appointed, some contractors will bring in an outside PSCS.

Thanks for the reply
Can you define what's considered as qualified, is there a specific qualification needed or a certain course required.

If not in theory could one half of a couple building be the client and the other the PSCS.

Gumbo

hexosan wrote: »

Thanks for the reply
Can you define what's considered as qualified, is there a specific qualification needed or a certain course required.

If not in theory could one half of a couple building be the client and the other the PSCS.

Would i be right in saying if you engage an Architect/Engineer to supervise the build then he/she can appoint themselves as PSCS.

sydthebeat

kceire wrote: »

Would i be right in saying if you engage an Architect/Engineer to supervise the build then he/she can appoint themselves as PSCS.

only if s/he:
1. is qualified to provide such service
2. has agreed to provide such service, for a fee of course

sydthebeat

hexosan wrote: »

Thanks for the reply
Can you define what's considered as qualified, is there a specific qualification needed or a certain course required.

If not in theory could one half of a couple building be the client and the other the PSCS.

The one person in theory can be the client, the designer, the PSDP and the PSCS.... once the person is suitably competent.

However the duties of the PSCS are the most onerous as its consistent on-site management, logistical management, information keeping etc.

At domestic level the duties of the designer are pretty much standard across the board

The duties of the PSDS are greater than the designer and less than the PSDP, though theres a heavy weight of responsibility involved in this engagement.

hexosan

sydthebeat wrote: »

The one person in theory can be the client, the designer, the PSDP and the PSCS.... once the person is suitably competent.

However the duties of the PSCS are the most onerous as its consistent on-site management, logistical management, information keeping etc.

At domestic level the duties of the designer are pretty much standard across the board

The duties of the PSDS are greater than the designer and less than the PSDP, though theres a heavy weight of responsibility involved in this engagement.

Thanks for the help so far as I'm trying to wrap my head around all this as I'm such a number of self builders will be in the coming months.

Still no one has answered what qualifies a person to act as PSCS
Are they required to hold a particular type of insurance ?

sydthebeat

hexosan wrote: »

Thanks for the help so far as I'm trying to wrap my head around all this as I'm such a number of self builders will be in the coming months.

Still no one has answered what qualifies a person to act as PSCS
Are they required to hold a particular type of insurance ?

http://www.hssireland.ie/pscs-affect-project/

read here

hexosan

sydthebeat wrote: »

http://www.hssireland.ie/pscs-affect-project/

read here

So the answer to my question is NO the average joe soap self builder can't be the PSCS.

sinnerboy

This act together with the new Building Control Procedures do seem to spell the end of self build direct labour.

Never mind , there are so many great "builders" in Ireland to choose from :rolleyes:

sinnerboy

hexosan wrote: »

the average joe soap self builder can't be the

.... builder either in compliance with the new Building Regulations procedures due to kick in next March . Maybe . Remains to be seen.

DOCARCH

*Bump*

Just thought I'd bring this thread back to the front page.

Astounding that the SAFETY, HEALTH AND WELFARE AT WORK (CONSTRUCTION) (AMENDMENT) REGULATIONS 2012 come into force this Saturday and the public are (generally) simply not aware of this!

Had a quick look at the HSA website and there is nothing except, under new legislation, a link to S.I. No. 461 of 2012 and then stating under the link...'these Regulations shall come into operation from 1st June 2013'...that's what's astounding...no information for the general public whatsoever!!!

Might be an idea to change the thread title/highlight this?

Not one single client, potential client, or contractor I have spoken to in the last month are aware of this change in legislation...they think I am mad!!!

No6

And potential clients beware, not all professionals (registered or not) can be PSDP as they have to do sepecialised training for this.

sinnerboy

As of today the HSA site is saying

You are not a client if you are having construction work done on your own domestic dwelling e.g. an extension on to your kitchen, or you are building your own house.

Not exactly helping are they ?

BryanF

sinnerboy wrote: »

As of today the HSA site is saying


Not exactly helping are they ?

Ridiculous

DOCARCH

Finally...at least some note on the new regulations on the HSA website.

http://www.hsa.ie/eng/Your_Industry/Construction/

Note very informative though!

sinnerboy

The site today states

Important Note
The Safety, Health and Welfare at work (construction) Regulations 2013 will come into effect on the 1st of June. Information contained on this section of the website should be read taking account of the new regulations and associated guidance documents. All publications will be reviewed to take account of the recent change in regulations.

That is risible.

Look at this page which at the time of posting states

You are not a client if you are having construction work done on your own domestic dwelling e.g. an extension on to your kitchen, or you are building your own house

And these guys are paid by Germany no matter how crap they are ....

atech

I sent the HSA a query today and in fairness they got back to me within a few hours; below is my query and their response:

To Whom It May Concern,

The following page on your website states "You are not a client if you are having construction work done on your own domestic dwelling e.g. an extension on to your kitchen, or you are building your own house"

http://www.hsa.ie/eng/Your_Industry/Construction/Construction_Duty_Holders/Client/Client_Duties.html

A recent amendment to the SAFETY, HEALTH AND WELFARE AT WORK REGULATIONS 2012 deleted regulation 6 paragraph 6 which stated : "the Act does not apply to or in respect of a project if" .... "a person commissions or procures the project in relation to the person’s domestic dwelling"

http://www.hsa.ie/eng/Legislation/New_Legislation/si4610f2012.pdf

Can you clarify what the requirements are for appointing a PSCS from June 1st if you are carrying out construction work to a domestic dwelling in the following scenarios:

1) Going the self build route with 2 of more trades involved to do work over 30 days or 500 man hours
2) Going the self build route with 2 of more trades involved to do work under 30 days or 500 man hours
3) Going the self build route with only 1 trades involved to do work over 30 days or 500 man hours
4) Employing a main contractor to do work over 30 days or 500 man hours
5) Employing a main contractor to do work under 30 days or 500 man hours

If any of those scenarios don't require a PSCS you might also clarify if a PSDP is to be appointed for that specific scenario.

Finally you might clarify what the situation is for the appointment of a PSDP & PSCS for domestic applications which have been either submitted or granted planning prior to June 1st.

Regards,

'atech'


Dear 'atech'

The Construction Regulations due to come into effect on June 1st 2013 will put responsibilities on a person carrying out construction work on their own domestic dwelling. These regulations cover paid occupational work only and do not apply to DIY or work undertaken by the homeowners themselves.

Scenario 1, 2 & 3 are similar the only difference between these will be that Scenario 1 & 3 will have to complete and send in an AF 2 form (as the work is over 30 working days & this is notifiable to the HSA)

In all 3 Scenario’s appointments will have to be made this is based on the following.
The work is over 30 working days
More than 1 contractor

The client’s duty will be
· Formerly appoint a competent PSDP

· Formerly appoint a competent PSCS


A client can appoint him/herself to the Project Supervisor role, if they are competent to oversee and manage the safety aspects of the design and construction of the project.
The appointments must be made in writing at the start of the project and accepted in writing by the Project Supervisors. There will be a template available on this once the regulations are signed into law.

In Scenario 4 the work is over 30 working days so it is notifiable and appointments will have to be made by the client.
In Scenario 5 if there is only one contractor, less than 30 days and no particular risk, no appointments have to be made under these regulations. However the client will still have to take reasonable steps to ensure that all designers or contractors are competent to carry out their tasks.

The draft regulations do set out exemptions for projects where design or construction has commenced. In your case, you would look at the definition of "design" and if work has been done which falls under this definition the exemption would apply for a period of 12mths. We will have FAQs and guidance documents which will deal with this aspect once the regulations come into effect.

The criteria for the appointments of Project Supervisors are:
· If the work is more than 30 working days

· More than 1 contractor

· If there is a particular risk

If any of these criteria exist then both PSDP & PSCS must be appointed.

I hope the above information helps in answering your questions.

Kindest Regards

____________
On Behalf of the Workplace Contact Unit

atech

Don't know any people that can build their own house themselves without any one else paid to do some element of the work, that part was a bit misleading; if they said DIY it would have been a bit clearer.

I'll reply back to them tomorrow to see if they can edit that.

sinnerboy

atech wrote: »

Dear 'atech'

The Construction Regulations due to come into effect on June 1st 2013 will put responsibilities on a person carrying out construction work on their own domestic dwelling. These regulations cover paid occupational work only and do not apply to DIY or work undertaken by the homeowners themselves.

Scenario 1, 2 & 3 are similar the only difference between these will be that Scenario 1 & 3 will have to complete and send in an AF 2 form (as the work is over 30 working days & this is notifiable to the HSA)

In all 3 Scenario’s appointments will have to be made this is based on the following.
The work is over 30 working days
More than 1 contractor

The client’s duty will be
· Formerly appoint a competent PSDP

· Formerly appoint a competent PSCS


A client can appoint him/herself to the Project Supervisor role, if they are competent to oversee and manage the safety aspects of the design and construction of the project.
The appointments must be made in writing at the start of the project and accepted in writing by the Project Supervisors. There will be a template available on this once the regulations are signed into law.

In Scenario 4 the work is over 30 working days so it is notifiable and appointments will have to be made by the client.
In Scenario 5 if there is only one contractor, less than 30 days and no particular risk, no appointments have to be made under these regulations. However the client will still have to take reasonable steps to ensure that all designers or contractors are competent to carry out their tasks.

The draft regulations do set out exemptions for projects where design or construction has commenced. In your case, you would look at the definition of "design" and if work has been done which falls under this definition the exemption would apply for a period of 12mths. We will have FAQs and guidance documents which will deal with this aspect once the regulations come into effect.

The criteria for the appointments of Project Supervisors are:
· If the work is more than 30 working days

· More than 1 contractor

· If there is a particular risk

If any of these criteria exist then both PSDP & PSCS must be appointed.

I hope the above information helps in answering your questions.

Kindest Regards

____________
On Behalf of the Workplace Contact Unit

On the first read that response looked good the huge problem being it took a member of the public to elicit it from them. There has been NO attempt to communicate the message to those who it most relevant to - the vast mass of would be house self builders , extenders or in some case just improvers.

And then it contains phrases which are confounding and which I have highlighted.

1. The amendment is not a draft is is a signed SI dated as follows

GIVEN under my Official Seal, 23 November 2012.
RICHARD BRUTON, Minister for Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation.

2. The regulations come into affect this weekend. So when they refer to FAQ's being made available "when the regulations come into affect" the time for that was months ago to guide those planning works up to this point in time and since the 23 November 2012.

The response you got atech is a garbled mess.

Andrew_Doran

atech wrote: »

Don't know any people that can build their own house themselves without any one else paid to do some element of the work, that part was a bit misleading; if they said DIY it would have been a bit clearer.

I'll reply back to them tomorrow to see if they can edit that.

I have read the amalgamated act and there is almost no wording that excludes DIY.

That may certainly be their intent, but with the removal of "for furtherance of a trade" passage it seems a shaky premise.

I do hope that I am the one being an idiot here and not the authors of the act.

atech

Received email earlier saying an ammendment is being signed pushing back effect date to Aug 1st.

atech

Andrew_Doran wrote: »

I have read the amalgamated act and there is almost no wording that excludes DIY.

That may certainly be their intent, but with the removal of "for furtherance of a trade" passage it seems a shaky premise.

I do hope that I am the one being an idiot here and not the authors of the act.

Works by a single contractor under 30 days or 500 man hours which aren't of significant risk are exempt so most DIY jobs would be covered by that I imagine.

hexosan

atech wrote: »

Received email earlier saying an ammendment is being signed pushing back effect date to Aug 1st.

Is there a link to this on their site or who did you receive the email from. Does this mean that if you now commence work before 1st Aug your still exempt for 1yr

DOCARCH

Got this email from the RIAI this evening:

Safety, Health and Welfare at Work (Construction) (Amendment) Regulations 2012

As you will be aware, it was expected that the Minister for Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation, Richard Bruton, would sign into law the proposed new Safety, Health and Welfare at Work (Construction) (Amendment )Regulations 2012 which was to take effect 01 June 2013. However, The RIAI has just been informed, by the Health and Safety Authority (HSA) that the Minister has decided to postpone the signing of these Regulations until, we believe, 01 August 2013. The RIAI had been in regular contact with the HSA regarding these Regulations and it appears that the HSA themselves were only advised of the Minister’s decision to postpone signing the Regulations very late on Thursday 30 May 2013.

Andrew_Doran

atech wrote: »

Works by a single contractor under 30 days or 500 man hours which aren't of significant risk are exempt so most DIY jobs would be covered by that I imagine.

Of course, but there are those that do undertake larger domestic projects: complete refurbishments, extensions etc. Myself included.

Separately, in many situations contractors will be hired for certain works to assist DIYers and will work on what is effectively a site. For example gas, cavity wall, electrical.

What a foolish and poorly executed piece of legislation.

atech

sinnerboy wrote: »

2. The regulations come into affect this weekend. So when they refer to FAQ's being made available "when the regulations come into affect" the time for that was months ago to guide those planning works up to this point in time and since the 23 November 2012.

The response you got atech is a garbled mess.

I could be mistaken but from my reading of the HSA's responses to me and from a look at this page Consultations
it appears to me the S.I is an amendment to the existing 2012 regulations which was to take effect tomorrow but new 2013 regulations are being introduced concurrently. This is why they mention 'draft regulations' and 'once signed into law'.
However it looks like the 2013 regs aren't ready yet so they have to push back the 2012 amendment.

This doesn't excuse the lack of information on the 2012 amendment but would clear up their response to me.

I can only assume the reason the 2012 amendment was rushed through before the 2013 regulations was due to fines from Brussels if they didn't.

atech

hexosan wrote: »

Is there a link to this on their site or who did you receive the email from. Does this mean that if you now commence work before 1st Aug your still exempt for 1yr

I think they are updating their website tomorrow to clarify this.

Re the exemption:

Citation and Commencement.
1. (1) These Regulations may be cited as the Safety, Health and Welfare at Work (Construction) Regulations 2013.

(2) These Regulations come into operation on XXX 2013, in this Regulation called the “effective date”.

(3) If, prior to the effective date,

(a) a design stage for a domestic dwelling, not in relation to trade business or undertaking, has commenced or

(b) construction stage for a domestic dwelling, not in relation to trade business or undertaking has commenced

duties of the client in relation to appointment of a project supervisor for the design process and appointment of project supervisor for the construction stage do not apply for a period of 12 months.



Not sure if that 12 months will reduce to 10 months because of the 2 month delay.


Also

“design” means the preparation of drawings, particulars, specifications, calculations and bills of quantities in so far as they contain specifications or other expressions of purpose, according to which a project, or any part or component of a project, is to be executed;

Not sure how commencement of design stage will be defined. My guess would be submission of a planning application.

atech

Andrew_Doran wrote: »

Of course, but there are those that do undertake larger domestic projects: complete refurbishments, extensions etc. Myself included.

Separately, in many situations contractors will be hired for certain works to assist DIYers and will work on what is effectively a site. For example gas, cavity wall, electrical.

What a foolish and poorly executed piece of legislation.

If more than 1 contractor (electrician, plumber, etc) is hired then it would no longer be a complete DIY job but a small domestic alteration. As I pointed out in post #10 these do appear to come under the new legislation.

I don't agree with that part either but I'm only the messenger.