Do Leinster need new players?

Woody1997

After Leinster's Heineken cup debacle yesterday, is it time they brought in some new players, or was it just injuries that let the, down yesterday? What does everyone think?

Hersheys

Woody1997 wrote: »

After Leinster's Heineken cup debacle yesterday, is it time they brought in some new players, or was it just injuries that let the, down yesterday? What does everyone think?

I would hardly call getting beaten (with a LBP) against one of the best teams in Europe a "debacle".

f1dan

Woody1997 wrote: »

After Leinster's Heineken cup debacle yesterday, is it time they brought in some new players, or was it just injuries that let the, down yesterday? What does everyone think?

I hear Connacht have a few decent players.....

<Covers head and runs away>

Woody1997

Hersheys wrote: »

I would hardly call getting beaten (with a LBP) against one of the best teams in Europe a "debacle".

No but it was more the manner in which they lost that was the problem for me. They lacked creativity and let clermont walk all over themin the pack and didn't front up to them in defence. It was also the first time they have been beaten in the aviva so something clearly went wrong. I don't think Browne is good enough, goodman and Darcy havent had enough time together and madigan isn't good enough to be playing out of position yet

justsomebloke

ok people play nice attack the post not the poster or infractions and bans will ensue

bilston

Woody1997 wrote: »

After Leinster's Heineken cup debacle yesterday, is it time they brought in some new players, or was it just injuries that let the, down yesterday? What does everyone think?

Bit of an overreaction maybe. You probably need to look at bringing in a top class centre though. BOD maybe has one more season left but I think Leinster need to strengthen their midfield options.

thomond2006

Clermont are a fantastic side and were eventually going to knock out a major player. No need to push the panic button just yet OP.

rrpc

Woody1997 wrote: »

No but it was more the manner in which they lost that was the problem for me. They lacked creativity and let clermont walk all over themin the pack and didn't front up to them in defence. It was also the first time they have been beaten in the aviva so something clearly went wrong. I don't think Browne is good enough, goodman and Darcy havent had enough time together and madigan isn't good enough to be playing out of position yet

Against a team like Clermont you're always going to have a difficult day up front and will need all your firepower in the backs. Leinster were obviously lacking in the latter but the forwards did their jobs well. Madigan's attackiing threat is really only effective on the gain line, he's not got the experience to be able to use the space at full back. Missing BOD, Kearney and FitzGerald was too much against an outfit like Clermont. Even when we had those players last year, we were hard pressed to get the win and inches from losing.

Not a debacle, just two very good teams going head to head and one having enough of an edge to get the result they wanted.

justsomebloke

We were beaten by the team that are odds on favourites for the championship have a budget and the ability to buy in anyone they want without the restrictions we are, by 1 try and it was a 'debacle'.

I think people really need to put in perspective what actually happened yesterday

ray jay

You're saying that like Leinster aren't also one of the top tier teams. It's not a problem limited to playing other heavy hitters either as the single try between their first two HC matches shows. Admittedly, the injury situation has been a lot worse this year than last. I'd imagine a lot of the slick backline moves Leinster normally thrive off just weren't viable when playing a few players out of position. Things are looking better for the new year, but that may be too late to rescue a HC knock out place. Silver lining: no distractions when it comes to the Rabo play offs.

Ultimately Leinster will need some new players, but not in droves as the OP seems to think.

Fishooks13

Of course they don't. Leinster have been incredibly unlucky with injury this season. Had BOD, Kearney, Luke Fitz and Strauss been fit yesterday things could have been a lot different. Not to mention the second line players like Kearney and EOM who've also had injury troubles.

rrpc

justsomebloke wrote: »

We were beaten by the team that are odds on favourites for the championship have a budget and the ability to buy in anyone they want without the restrictions we are, by 1 try and it was a 'debacle'.

I think people really need to put in perspective what actually happened yesterday

Up until Ulster got beaten by Saints, I reckoned it was between Clermont, Ulster and possibly Leinster for the cup. Now it's Clermonts to lose and I very much doubt they'll do that.

They rose to the challenge of having us in their pool by beating us home and away. They'll go through undefeated, have a home QF and will take some beating when the finish line is in sight.

SERGEANT.

"Debacle"

Ridiculous.

totallegend

The first suggestion would be for Leinster to stop giving away players.

Watching Hines last night was a grim reminder of the criminal incompetence of the IRFU in this regard.

In the next 2-3 years, will we be seeing Nacewa or van der Merwe tearing it up against us?

CIARAN_BOYLE

We need a lock but McCarthy is coming in for that.

The Hookers both need to pull their socks up when it comes to throwing the ball in at the lineout. They are inconsistant. They can both have good games but things don't work for them sometimes. After the match in Clermont we know how much that cost the team (4 or 5 faulty lineouts in the last 20 minutes, had we had a perfect lineout during that time we would have won the game imo).

There are two many injuries, you can't take Fitzgerald, O'Driscoll, EOM and Kearney x2 out of a team and expect the backline to work as well.

Had we EOM and either Kearney or Fitzgerald fully fit we could well have seen a different result.

Goodman isn't good enough at this level, he didn't do terribly but he came in as 3rd choice 10/12 and play a few league games before going home in time to make the NPC next year not start in the HEC.

Fishooks13

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

Goodman isn't good enough at this level, he didn't do terribly but he came in as 3rd choice 10/12 and play a few league games before going home in time to make the NPC next year not start in the HEC.

What exactly did he do wrong yesterday?!

I thought he was one of Leinster's better players. Got a bit of go forward ball in the first half and made some big hits. Having Darcy outside him was never going to work in terms of a combination

CIARAN_BOYLE

Fishooks13 wrote: »

What exactly did he do wrong yesterday?!

I thought he was one of Leinster's better players. Got a bit of go forward ball in the first half and made some big hits. Having Darcy outside him was never going to work in terms of a combination

He made some big hits but went backwards a few times in the tackle as well. I suppose I just haven't been impressed with him yet.

I dunno I just don't think he was up the standards Darcy and McFadden set as a 12, they are high enough standards but still.

Woody1997

SERGEANT. wrote: »

"Debacle"

Ridiculous.

Well what would you call it? We are on the verge of goingnoutnof the Heineken cup after only four matches. We created nothing in the backs yesterday and let clermont get over the gain line every time. I know we have injuries but I would still consider yesterday's performance hugely disappointing

Woody1997

ray jay wrote: »

You're saying that like Leinster aren't also one of the top tier teams. It's not a problem limited to playing other heavy hitters either as the single try between their first two HC matches shows. Admittedly, the injury situation has been a lot worse this year than last. I'd imagine a lot of the slick backline moves Leinster normally thrive off just weren't viable when playing a few players out of position. Things are looking better for the new year, but that may be too late to rescue a HC knock out place. Silver lining: no distractions when it comes to the Rabo play offs.

Ultimately Leinster will need some new players, but not in droves as the OP seems to think.

I'm not suggesting that we bring in "droves" of players, I am fully aware that the Leinster squad is one of he best, if not the best in Europe, when fully fit! I was merely asking if people thought that we should bring in some new players in certain positions and if anyone had any suggestions

thomond2006

Woody1997 wrote: »

Well what would you call it? We are on the verge of goingnoutnof the Heineken cup after only four matches. We created nothing in the backs yesterday and let clermont get over the gain line every time. I know we have injuries but I would still consider yesterday's performance hugely disappointing

I felt the same way when Munster got mullered by Toulon a few seasons ago. It's natural to be reactionary after a disappointing defeat. There's a reason nobody has ever won three Heineken Cups in a row and why a back-to-back has only done twice, it's a very difficult competition to win!

Leinster will likely qualify for the Amlin, at least that's something to aim for.

bilston

Fishooks13 wrote: »

What exactly did he do wrong yesterday?!

I thought he was one of Leinster's better players. Got a bit of go forward ball in the first half and made some big hits. Having Darcy outside him was never going to work in terms of a combination

I don't think it's a case of what he did wrong, Leinster just lacked spark in the midfield that BOD would provide. Leinster can't replace BOD from within and that's why I think they need a big centre signing in the next year or two. Other than that they're fine.

.ak

For me it's just an 'injury crisis'. No branch can afford depth like Clermont to get them out of such crisis.

GerM

Woody1997 wrote: »

Well what would you call it? We are on the verge of goingnoutnof the Heineken cup after only four matches. We created nothing in the backs yesterday and let clermont get over the gain line every time. I know we have injuries but I would still consider yesterday's performance hugely disappointing

Life, that's what I'd call it. Losing to the side that many consider the best in Europe with a LBP is not a debacle and, if you think it is, you should cast your mind back to actual debacles such as the game in Twickenham this year or back a few years to when Leinster lost to Sale, London Irish and Bath at home. This was Leinster losing to a great side when they were missing a few starters. There's no shame in it whatsoever.

CatFromHue

If I were to go for anyone it would be to bring in a top class 12.

.ak

Woody1997 wrote: »

Well what would you call it? We are on the verge of goingnoutnof the Heineken cup after only four matches. We created nothing in the backs yesterday and let clermont get over the gain line every time. I know we have injuries but I would still consider yesterday's performance hugely disappointing

Why? When BOD, Kearney, Fitz were all injured we all assumed it'd be very, very hard to get out of this group. Now that their backups are all injured, why is it a surprise?

Fishooks13

I think it's definitely very disappointing that Leinster didn't win yesterday considering they were the better team last weekend IMO. But looking at it more broadly and considering injuries it's not the biggest disaster that they didn't top the group

GerM

Personally, I thought Goodman was quite decent. He passed well and thundered into contact a few times, getting over the gain line. Defended stoutly too. We were too loose in our play and were bullied at the breakdown. We made some errors (pressured by superb aggression) and you can't afford to do that against Clermont. One thing I noted repeatedly from my seat though when I was directly in line with the ruck is that the offside line was not policed at all. That went for both sides but Clermont were playing a very fast, in your face defence which was very much suited to a lax offside policy.

Woody1997

GerM wrote: »

Life, that's what I'd call it. Losing to the side that many consider the best in Europe with a LBP is not a debacle and, if you think it is, you should cast your mind back to actual debacles such as the game in Twickenham this year or back a few years to when Leinster lost to Sale, London Irish and Bath at home. This was Leinster losing to a great side when they were missing a few starters. There's no shame in it whatsoever.

Okay, maybe debacle was the wrong choice of word, I am in no way ashamed by Leinster's performance, just disappointed. I don't think hey fronted up as well to clermont as they had to and gave them too much space and time on the ball. I still see Leinster, when an injury free as the best skein Europe and think they still have a chance of qualifying for the qf, that is if they can get all their players back for the January round of fixtures

Swiwi

If Leinster can only buy 1 player, it should be a 12/13 IMO. I had never heard of Goodman before Leinster, and he's from my neck of the woods, so I don't think he's the solution...

Ulster (surprisingly IMO) managed to get Jarred Payne, and I wonder if a player like Ben Smith could be tempted with €€€?

rrpc

Woody1997 wrote: »

I'm not suggesting that we bring in "droves" of players, I am fully aware that the Leinster squad is one of he best, if not the best in Europe, when fully fit! I was merely asking if people thought that we should bring in some new players in certain positions and if anyone had any suggestions

We needed someone at lock and Mike McCarthy is going to fill that. Quinn Roux looks a good prospect and will be back next season hopefully. The problems at lineout stemmed from the lack of good options there. Nathan Hines made a complete nuisance of himself and forced the hookers to either throw short or long with mixed results.

Outside of that, I can't see any real lack of players. We've just lost too many players and their backups to be the well oiled machine we normally are.

We had Goodman at 12 instead of D'Arcy, D'Arcy at 13 instead of BOD or EOM, Nacewa at 11 instead of FitzGerald, McFadden at 14 was fine, but Madigan at 15 instead of Kearney or Nacewa was not.

And that's just the backs. We also had very little backup on the bench. Dave Kearney was good when he came on, but he was too fresh from injury to start.

CatFromHue

Is Ben Smith not a predominantly outside back as opposed to a 13?

Woody1997

Fishooks13 wrote: »

I think it's definitely very disappointing that Leinster didn't win yesterday considering they were the better team last weekend IMO. But looking at it more broadly and considering injuries it's not the biggest disaster that they didn't top the group

Do you think Leinster will still make the quarter finals?

GerM

Woody1997 wrote: »

think they still have a chance of qualifying for the qf, that is if they can get all their players back for the January round of fixtures

I'd agree. It's going to be very unlikely due to our uncharacteristic lack of tries but there's a chance. If they come out all guns blazing and rack up 5 or 6 tries against the Scarlets, they've a chance. The HEC is a funny thing and it always throws up some unexpected results. If Toulon win in Montpellier and Toulouse lose in Leicester, Leinster have a sniff. I don't see Northampton racking up any bonus points.

Swiwi

CatFromHue wrote: »

Is Ben Smith not a predominantly outside back as opposed to a 13?

You're right that he's played more rugby there, but the ABs seem him as a potential replacement for his namesake C Smith, and he played at 13 for NZ v Scotland, where I thought he went well.

I just think he's pretty talented footballer, who can probably play 12 out, although maybe he should be seen a bit more in the midfield before a definitive judgement is made.

NZ would be very reluctant to let him go, and I would be annoyed at Leinster!, but that's life.

Tigerandahalf

Tighthead could become a major issue if Ross' form doesnt pick up. Bent cant be brilliant if he couldnt get into a Super15 side on a consistent basis. Either that or NZ have incredible depth. V der Merve has been poor this season as well, his only scrummaging success coming against one Mike Ross.
For all the young talent Leinster have they are weak in the scrum and 2nd row. The top teams are targeting them there. They also have problems at the ruck and breakdown. Ospreys caught them last year as well. If the ball is allowed to be slowed down Leinster struggle due to their lack of physical size in midfield.
Hopefully some of the younger players will get gametime now. It might be a blessing in the long run.
Connacht could be targeted again. I wonder what length of contract McSharry and Marmion are on.

Fishooks13

Woody1997 wrote: »

Do you think Leinster will still make the quarter finals?

Not really, but you never know

Swiwi

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

Tighthead could become a major issue if Ross' form doesnt pick up. Bent cant be brilliant if he couldnt get into a Super15 side on a consistent basis. Either that or NZ have incredible depth. V der Merve has been poor this season as well, his only scrummaging success coming against one Mike Ross.
For all the young talent Leinster have they are weak in the scrum and 2nd row. The top teams are targeting them there. They also have problems at the ruck and breakdown. Ospreys caught them last year as well. If the ball is allowed to be slowed down Leinster struggle due to their lack of physical size in midfield.
Hopefully some of the younger players will get gametime now. It might be a blessing in the long run.
Connacht could be targeted again. I wonder what length of contract McSharry and Marmion are on.

Bent got little game time in the S15 this year, but apparently had a great NPC for Taranaki. Had he remained in NZ, he would certainly have made the Hurricanes squad, but we will never know if he would have nailed down a starting TH spot.

GerM

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

Tighthead could become a major issue if Ross' form doesnt pick up. Bent cant be brilliant if he couldnt get into a Super15 side on a consistent basis. Either that or NZ have incredible depth. V der Merve has been poor this season as well, his only scrummaging success coming against one Mike Ross.
For all the young talent Leinster have they are weak in the scrum and 2nd row. The top teams are targeting them there. They also have problems at the ruck and breakdown. Ospreys caught them last year as well. If the ball is allowed to be slowed down Leinster struggle due to their lack of physical size in midfield.
Hopefully some of the younger players will get gametime now. It might be a blessing in the long run.

Leinster have problems at the ruck? They're the best side in Europe at the ruck in terms of turning over ball and slowing opposition ball. Even when they were completely outmuscled last night they were winning turnovers. They controlled the breakdown in SMM last week. Absolutely destroyed Llanelli there too. They've been dominating sides there consistently for a few seasons now.

As for the scrum, what sides are targeting them there? Mike Ross was MOTM in a HEC game this season already and again, Leinster's scrum was on top last weekend. They've an excellent roster at prop.

I find the misery based on losing to the most powerful side in Europe who have a budget of well over €20m a little over the top.

Tigerandahalf

Who is the TH for the Hurricanes?

Tigerandahalf

Leinster's scrum has always been just about good enough to compete with the top teams. Northampton, Ulster, Clermont, Ospreys (when fit), Toulouse could all cause problems for them.

Swiwi

Swiwi wrote: »

You're right that he's played more rugby there, but the ABs seem him as a potential replacement for his namesake C Smith, and he played at 13 for NZ v Scotland, where I thought he went well.

I just think he's pretty talented footballer, who can probably play 12 out, although maybe he should be seen a bit more in the midfield before a definitive judgement is made.

NZ would be very reluctant to let him go, and I would be annoyed at Leinster!, but that's life.

Actually, Robbie Freuan might be gettable. I think he will give it 1 more season to make the ABs, failing which I reckon he'll sign on for Samoa (a la Kahn Foutalihi), and then of course would be free to seek fame & fortune elsewhere. He might run out of puff a bit at times, but a linebreaker he certainly is.

Fishooks13

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

For all the young talent Leinster have they are weak in the scrum .

Absolute nonsense

GerM

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

Leinster's scrum has always been just about good enough to compete with the top teams. Northampton, Ulster, Clermont, Ospreys (when fit), Toulouse could all cause problems for them.

Leinster absolutely pummeled Ulster's scrum when they last met. They've gone toe to toe with Clermont and Toulouse in recent times and it has come out relatively even. Some games, your scrum comes off second best. The referee has something in his head and repeatedly penalises it. Last night was one of those times.

beaner88

I'm not too concerned. Leinster are still a top team but they are probably on a bit of a decline. They were never going to dominate Europe for a decade.

CIARAN_BOYLE

Swiwi wrote: »

Actually, Robbie Freuan might be gettable. I think he will give it 1 more season to make the ABs, failing which I reckon he'll sign on for Samoa (a la Kahn Foutalihi), and then of course would be free to seek fame & fortune elsewhere. He might run out of puff a bit at times, but a linebreaker he certainly is.

or maybe Leinster might look at him as a project player

Swiwi

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

Who is the TH for the Hurricanes?

They have signed Ben Franks in the off-season, otherwise their props would be unknown outside of NZ: Toomaga-Allen from memory is the TH.

Swiwi

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

or maybe Leinster might look at him as a project player

Hadn't thought of that!

Glass Prison 1214

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

Tighthead could become a major issue if Ross' form doesnt pick up. Bent cant be brilliant if he couldnt get into a Super15 side on a consistent basis. Either that or NZ have incredible depth. V der Merve has been poor this season as well, his only scrummaging success coming against one Mike Ross.
For all the young talent Leinster have they are weak in the scrum and 2nd row. The top teams are targeting them there. They also have problems at the ruck and breakdown. Ospreys caught them last year as well. If the ball is allowed to be slowed down Leinster struggle due to their lack of physical size in midfield.
Hopefully some of the younger players will get gametime now. It might be a blessing in the long run.
Connacht could be targeted again. I wonder what length of contract McSharry and Marmion are on.

I completely disagree, Mike Ross has been playing very well despite what the papers will have you believe. Judging Bent on what we have seen so far he seems a very capable scrummager which is all I want from a tighthead, and we are not being targeted in the scrums, ours is one of the best in Europe which was shown by us being on top against a very good Clermont scrum last week.

Same with the breakdown, we have some top class operators at the breakdown in SOB, Jennings, Heaslip, Strauss and BOD and I would consider it to be one of our greatest strengths. And why would we bring in Marmion? Reddan and Boss are still performing well and I think we will get another 18 months out of them, at which time I believe Cooney and McGrath will be ready to take over.

Tigerandahalf

I googled it there. Franks it seems will be playing loosehead as he sees it as his only chance to get into NZ squad. Seems NZ have 4 or 5 quality tightheads. They guy you mentioned is the TH. When you consider the other players they have overseas strength in depth is incredible.

Glass Prison 1214

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

Leinster's scrum has always been just about good enough to compete with the top teams. Northampton, Ulster, Clermont, Ospreys (when fit), Toulouse could all cause problems for them.

We were on top in the scrums in the HEC final against Ulster last year, after the first half disaster we dominated Northampton in the scrums, last week we were on top against Clermonts scrum, in last seasons Rabo final both Healy and Ross were injured and I would just put Ospreys being on top on the day down to a poor day at the office for White and Heinke VDM and a top class Ospreys scrum, Hagan also killed them in the league this year. You can't say that about Toulouse's scrum until we come up against them.

thebaz

No - they have a top class academy, i would much prefer these local players fed through the system , rather than a Manchester City/Chelsea approach of loose a game , buy a bunch of sexy imports