Animal lovers protest removal of fleas from UGH

Mrs OBumble

From the Galway Indo site - anyone wanna do a counter protest about the protestors?

HSE West has come under fire for putting down local feral cats, who have been identified as the source of a recent flea outbreak at University Hospital Galway.
....
However, the hospital has been widely criticised by animal lovers for euthanising the cats and efforts are now underway to organise a picket at the gates of University Hospital Galway this Saturday at 1pm.

Ref: http://galwayindependent.com/stories/item/5204/2012-51/UHG-criticised-for-putting-down-feral-cats

honerbright

Why would you want to protest people protesting murder of animals?

galwayrush

Since when has putting down feral cats been deemed murder?

honerbright

they're living things that are being killed through no fault of their own. It's murder. And how is the pest control company going to distinguish between pet cats and strays? Not all pet owners are responsible enough to microchip/put collars on their animals which is how they're apparently going to choose between life and death for those poor cats.

jamesdiver

its not ideal to destroy the cats, but our hospital has to be kept clean and sanitary. If you caught and put the cats in the pound, i doubt they would be rehomed anytime soon, and end up being destroyed anyways. Its for the best.

WallyGUFC

Probably the same professional protestors that made up the Occupy rubbish. Another bandwagon for them I suppose.

dantbyhid

I'd say the rats that would roam around the hospital if the cats are murdered will carry a few more diseases than them. Catch, neuter, treet for possible fleas and return is the only thing that should be done.

docmol

I'd say the rats that would roam around the hospital if the cats are murdered will carry a few more diseases than them. Catch, neuter, treet for possible fleas and return is the only thing that should be done.

That just makes no sense. I unfortunately spend a lot of time in hospital and have never seen a cat!
If cat owners took responsiblilty for their pets, didn't let them roam, neutered them etc., there might be an arguement but culling them is the obvious answer. People are more important then cats.

Storm 10

I walk through the hospital several times a week and recently i saw a cat with what looked like a small rat in its mouth, if you walk around the hospital there are loads of rat traps with posion laid out around the place so no cats lots of vermin. In fairness how could a cat give fleas to hospital staff unless they were in contact with them and they would have to have been in the hospital

Conmaicne Mara

Soap dodging, work shy, dole grabbing, protester g******.



Would I fit all that on a placard?

Someone get their names and report them to Joan Burton, that'll soften their cough.

Gumbi

honerbright wrote: »

they're living things that are being killed through no fault of their own. It's murder. And how is the pest control company going to distinguish between pet cats and strays? Not all pet owners are responsible enough to microchip/put collars on their animals which is how they're apparently going to choose between life and death for those poor cats.

Do you eat meat? Use animal products? If so, by your own logic, you are complicit in the murder of animals.

Ficheall

I thought this was going to be about people protesting against the killing of the fleas, as opposed to about the killing of the cats carrying them :pac:

Cheshire Cat

Rats carry fleas, too. Once the cats are gone mice and rats will have free run of the grounds and the problems will be even bigger!

Mrs OBumble

Ficheall wrote: »

I thought this was going to be about people protesting against the killing of the fleas, as opposed to about the killing of the cats carrying them :pac:

Fleas are sentient beings too: if someone is opposed to the killing to feral cats, then logically they must be opposed to the killing of fleas too.

Cheshire Cat wrote: »

Rats carry fleas, too.

Indeed. And in fact, linking this to the other thread about fleas ... the fleas in Outpatients are most likely due to rats that were displaced from their homes by the SQR roadworks! But of course you cannot have a hospital with rats ... far safer to make a typo and say it was a problem with dats / cats / bats.

Jim

I think what people are missing here is what is being asked is to do what's "reasonable". It is reasonable to have the cats removed, and looked after, and eventually rehomed (there are several organisations in Galway who do this, some of whom don't put the animals down) instead of just killing them outright.

snubbleste

The Big Red Button

Thread title is quite misleading, they're not protesting about fleas being removed, they're protesting about the cats being put down.

Having said that, while I understand they don't want the cats being killed, what's the alternative? Who's going to rehome a feral disease-infested cat? And they can't leave the situtation as it is - it's a hospital, sanitation is of utmost importance.

Instead of protesting, couldn't the animal lovers just bring the feral cats home with them? :P Seems like a more pro-active solution! Can't see that happening somehow though ...

Mrs OBumble

Thread title is quite deliberate, to provoke discussion .... :-)

gozunda

Cheshire Cat wrote: »

Rats carry fleas, too. Once the cats are gone mice and rats will have free run of the grounds and the problems will be even bigger!

Reminds me of what happened during the great Plague in London

'Desperate Measures. By mid July over 1,000 deaths per week were reported in the city. It was rumored that dogs and cats spread the disease, so the Lord Mayor ordered all the dogs and cats destroyed. Author Daniel Defoe in his Journal of the Plague Years estimated that 40,000 dogs and 200,000 cats were killed. The real effect of this was that there were fewer natural enemies of the rats who carried the plague fleas, so the germs spread more rapidly.'

http://www.britainexpress.com/History/plague.htm

....

Jim

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Thread title is quite deliberate, to provoke discussion .... :-)

Discussion? I thought the thread was about jokes, presumptions, and exaggerations.

rowr

The oversupply of cats should mean a welcomed drop in Chinese restaurants menu prices

Conmaicne Mara

There are too many cats in Galway anyway, they'll kill more birds and frogs than rats.

snubbleste

Conmaicne Mara wrote: »

There are too many cats in Galway anyway, they'll kill more birds and frogs than rats.

How many cats are there in Galway

Discodog

Killing the cats is ineffective, cruel & unacceptable. For a start it is impossible to differentiate between a pet cat & a feral cat.

The worrying thing is that, so called, experts will have recommended this stupid strategy. They may also be the same "experts" who "identified" the cats as the cause of the fleas.

The only acceptable method of cat control is trap, neuter & release. Cat owners are not legally obliged to control their cats. Anyone deliberately killing any cat could be open to prosecution especially when the new Animal Welfare Bill becomes law.

snubbleste

Does anyone else feel itchy when opening this thread ?

Discodog

Does anyone know who is organising the protest?

BhoscaCapall

Discodog wrote: »

Does anyone know who is organising the protest?

I could guess a few names, usually the same smelly rent a cause wasters.

Discodog

BhoscaCapall wrote: »

I could guess a few names, usually the same smelly rent a cause wasters.

Well I totally supporting the protest & I object to being referred to in such terms.

Just found out that the main objectors are the GSPCA & Dr Claudia Franks. Do you consider them wasters?

rowr

Sure they have another 8 lives left after uchg unlike most of the miserable s dying on trolleys inside there, get a grip people

Mrs OBumble

Discodog wrote: »

The worrying thing is that, so called, experts will have recommended this stupid strategy. They may also be the same "experts" who "identified" the cats as the cause of the fleas.

Has anyone actually seen cats being destroyed?

People seem to have missed the point I made earlier: what is actually being destroyed here may not be cats.

Would you go to a hospital if you knew there were rats there? Would a public building be allowed to stay open if there were rats there?

Think on it ...

Discodog

rowr wrote: »

Sure they have another 8 lives left after uchg unlike most of the miserable s dying on trolleys inside there, get a grip people

If the hospital & HSE can't get something basic, like this, right then it hardly bodes well for the more serious decisions.

Treating the cats humanely doesn't effect the care of patients.

Discodog

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Has anyone actually seen cats being destroyed?

People seem to have missed the point I made earlier: what is actually being destroyed here may not be cats.

Would you go to a hospital if you knew there were rats there? Would a public building be allowed to stay open if there were rats there?

Think on it ...

One for the conspiracies forum!

The bad pr from killing cats will be far worse. We all live with rats.

The real conspiracy could be the pest controllers blaming cats knowing that removing them will increase the rat population & provide even more work.

BhoscaCapall

Discodog wrote: »

Well I totally supporting the protest & I object to being referred to in such terms.

Just found out that the main objectors are the GSPCA & Dr Claudia Franks. Do you consider them wasters?

I can't put into words how little I care about the opinions of people who put the rights of a cretinous animal ahead of a human.

Discodog

BhoscaCapall wrote: »

I can't put into words how little I care about the opinions of people who put the rights of a cretinous animal ahead of a human.

How is caring for the welfare of animals detrimental to the rights of humans?

By the way no one is referring to animal rights. Would you consider a guide dog to be cretinous?

docmol

The only acceptable method of cat control is trap, neuter & release. Cat owners are not legally obliged to control their cats. Anyone deliberately killing any cat could be open to prosecution especially when the new Animal Welfare Bill becomes law.

Complete and utter rubbish, feral cats are vermin and killing vermin is allowed, always.
As for how to tell the difference between feral and pet cats that's easy. If you can see their owners with them they are pets, if they are running loose they are feral.

biko

Conmaicne Mara wrote: »

Soap dodging, work shy, dole grabbing, protester g******

BhoscaCapall wrote: »

I could guess a few names, usually the same smelly rent a cause wasters.

I don't see a reason for you two to post in this thread any more.

Iwannahurl

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Fleas are sentient beings too

They're relentless bloodsucking parasites, in my (limited) experience.

Iwannahurl

gozunda wrote: »

Reminds me of what happened during the great Plague in London

...

I'm glad you lived to tell the tale.

In this case the critters are allegedly cat fleas, so remove the host and the parasite goes as well (hopefully).

But point well made: if the cats have played any role in keeping down other vermin such as rats and mice, removing them might lead to unintended consequences.

The solution is to eradicate, or at least dramatically reduce, the populations of all pests.

Oh, and perhaps the Vermin Terminators could clean the floors in UHG while they're at it...

SillyMangoX

Iwannahurl wrote: »

I'm glad you lived to tell the tale.

In this case the critters are allegedly cat fleas, so remove the host and the parasite goes as well (hopefully).

But point well made: if the cats have played any role in keeping down other vermin such as rats and mice, removing them might lead to unintended consequences.

The solution is to eradicate, or at least dramatically reduce, the populations of all pests.

Oh, and perhaps the Vermin Terminators could clean the floors in UHG while they're at it...

Cat fleas are the most common type of flea and can be found on any type of creature, not necessarily just cats. Its way more likely that these fleas were brought in on the clothes of a patient/employee of the hospital with a pet with fleas than the flea magically hopping great distances from human shy feral cats to the general public.

galwayrush

Let's neuter the fleas.:pac:

BhoscaCapall

biko wrote: »

I don't see a reason for you two to post in this thread any more.

Interesting discussion forum you're operating here :rolleyes:

Mod note: banned

Discodog

SillyMangoX wrote: »

Cat fleas are the most common type of flea and can be found on any type of creature, not necessarily just cats. Its way more likely that these fleas were brought in on the clothes of a patient/employee of the hospital with a pet with fleas than the flea magically hopping great distances from human shy feral cats to the general public.

Exactly. So if it is so obvious to us then who are the supposed experts & why haven't they got a clue?

gozunda

docmol wrote: »

Complete and utter rubbish, feral cats are vermin and killing vermin is allowed, always.
As for how to tell the difference between feral and pet cats that's easy. If you can see their owners with them they are pets, if they are running loose they are feral.

Completely incorrect - one of the most stupid myths out there imo.

Nowhere are 'feral' cats defined as vermin in Irish law


Domestic cats that are not looked after by someone may be removed by authorised bodies


All cats are of domestic Origin - there are no true wild / feral cats in Ireland

There is one species of wild cat - in Scotland.

Cats are understood to have a propensity to roam - even domestic cats. There is no legal requirement to lock up a cat or restrict a cat.

It sounds you are one of those who 'hate' cats for some bizarre reason but have no rational basis for this

Personally I believe such 'haters' have a form of leftover psychosis about cats from catholic witch burnings in the Middle Ages.

gozunda

Iwannahurl wrote: »

I'm glad you lived to tell the tale.

In this case the critters are allegedly cat fleas, so remove the host and the parasite goes as well (hopefully).

But point well made: if the cats have played any role in keeping down other vermin such as rats and mice, removing them might lead to unintended consequences.

The solution is to eradicate, or at least dramatically reduce, the populations of all pests.

Oh, and perhaps the Vermin Terminators could clean the floors in UHG while they're at it...

'I am Duncan MacLeod, born four hundred years ago in the Highlands of Scotland. I am Immortal and I am not alone. For centuries we have waited for the time of the Gathering, when the stroke of a sword and the fall of a head will release the power of the Quickening. In the end, there can be only one.'

...but there will be many cats

docmol

gozunda wrote: »

Completely incorrect - one of the most stupid myths out there imo.

Nowhere are 'feral' cats defined as vermin in Irish law


Domestic cats that are not looked after by someone may be removed by authorised bodies


All cats are of domestic Origin - there are no true wild / feral cats in Ireland

There is one species of wild cat - in Scotland.

Cats are understood to have a propensity to roam - even domestic cats. There is no legal requirement to lock up a cat or restrict a cat.

It sounds you are one of those who 'hate' cats for some bizarre reason but have no rational basis for this

Personally I believe such 'haters' have a form of leftover psychosis about cats from catholic witch burnings in the Middle Ages.

I beg to differ. The legal definition of vermin is any animal that causes harm to humans. This harm can be economical or physical. There is no list of what animals are vermin, just a couple of examples in the guidlines. Even a much loved pet can be considered vermin and shot by anyone, without fear of the law, if they do it to protect their lives/income. Try telling a farmer not to shoot your pet dog if it's worrying his sheep. Even better, try and get him charged. I'm not a lawyer but a search of the Irish statutes brought up the 1976 wildlife act and here is the relevent section (I think!)

(5) Section 58 of the Act of 1946 is hereby amended as follows:


(a) subsection (1) shall have effect as if the words “rabbits or”, wherever they occur, were deleted, and


(b) the following is hereby substituted for subsection (3):


“(3) Each of the following shall be vermin for the purposes of this section—


(a) any wild bird which is not a protected wild bird within the meaning of the Wildlife Act, 1976,


(b) any wild animal (other than a bird) which is not a protected wild animal within the meaning of that Act.”

There are obviously feral cats in Ireland. These were domestic cats at one stage, or their parents etc were domestic cats, but as they now live without owners to keep them they are feral.
The sweeping generalisations made at the end of your arguement would seem to put you among a group of people that think cats can do no wrong and everyone else should accept bad cat owners. I disagree.
The sooner cats are licenced and chipped the better. This would help to ensure people who mistreat or abandon their pets are traceable. It would also mean that owners could be held to account if their cats become a nuissance. The reason that there is no legal requirement to lock up or restrict a cat is not because some wise lawmakers set down and decided that cats were above the law. It's because cats were not considered important enough to legislate for. Dogs, horses etc are considered property and protected for that reason. Cats aren't.

Just Like Heaven

Conmaicne Mara wrote: »

Soap dodging, work shy, dole grabbing, protester g******.

Claaaass.

gozunda

docmol wrote: »

I beg to differ. The legal definition of vermin is any animal that causes harm to humans. This harm can be economical or physical. There is no list of what animals are vermin, just a couple of examples in the guidlines. Even a much loved pet can be considered vermin and shot by anyone, without fear of the law, if they do it to protect their lives/income. Try telling a farmer not to shoot your pet dog if it's worrying his sheep. Even better, try and get him charged. I'm not a lawyer but a search of the Irish statutes brought up the 1976 wildlife act and here is the relevent section (I think!)


There are obviously feral cats in Ireland. These were domestic cats at one stage, or their parents etc were domestic cats, but as they now live without owners to keep them they are feral.
The sweeping generalisations made at the end of your arguement would seem to put you among a group of people that think cats can do no wrong and everyone else should accept bad cat owners. I disagree.
The sooner cats are licenced and chipped the better. This would help to ensure people who mistreat or abandon their pets are traceable. It would also mean that owners could be held to account if their cats become a nuissance. The reason that there is no legal requirement to lock up or restrict a cat is not because some wise lawmakers set down and decided that cats were above the law. It's because cats were not considered important enough to legislate for. Dogs, horses etc are considered property and protected for that reason. Cats aren't.

Again you are incorrect. Specifically your personal assumptions and incorrect interpretation of the law are wrong.

The vermin list is clearly listed in Irish legislation.

People who shoot or hunt are restricted in what they can and cannot shoot.

An animal that straying or causing problems are dealt with under straying animal regulations and local by laws. These are normally specific organisations or professional firms not cowboys with Guns taking potshots at domestic animals

You risk have a gun licence removed, any weapons confiscated and prosecution for shooting out side the terms of a licence.

A person shooting a domestic pet / animal for any reason may be done to the full rigours of the law

If farmers jones cow trespasses on to my land and eats my grass or moves into the shed - I cannot shoot it.

There is very specific laws about shooting straying dogs (control of dogs act) because they may pose specific danger to other animals.

The piece of legislation you quote refers to native wild animals of non domestic origin.
So it bears no issue to domestic / or domestic animals / cats that have been abandoned

I have checked this issue with a barrister and they confirmed that an abandoned cat does NOT fall within the remit of a) a wild animal as given under the wildlife act or b) vermin as defined under same for the purposes of shooting.

?Cee?view

gozunda wrote: »

Again you are incorrect. Specifically your personal assumptions and incorrect interpretation of the law are wrong.

The vermin list is clearly listed in Irish legislation.

People who shoot or hunt are restricted in what they can and cannot shoot.

An animal that straying or causing problems are dealt with under straying animal regulations and local by laws. These are normally specific organisations or professional firms not cowboys with Guns taking potshots at domestic animals

You risk have a gun licence removed, any weapons confiscated and prosecution for shooting out side the terms of a licence.

A person shooting a domestic pet / animal for any reason may be done to the full rigours of the law

If farmers jones cow trespasses on to my land and eats my grass or moves into the shed - I cannot shoot it.

There is very specific laws about shooting straying dogs (control of dogs act) because they may pose specific danger to other animals.

The piece of legislation you quote refers to native wild animals of non domestic origin.
So it bears no issue to domestic / or domestic animals / cats that have been abandoned

I have checked this issue with a barrister and they confirmed that an abandoned cat does NOT fall within the remit of a) a wild animal as given under the wildlife act or b) vermin as defined under same for the purposes of shooting.

Any chance your pet barrister could confirm the legal basis for his/her reasoning?

I genuinely can't understand why cats don't have to be licensed if dogs do. Cats damage property. In my own garden I've had to tolerate a cat who's given birth to a litter with no way of tracing its owner.

As to the argument as to what is feral I note that you've confined your analysis to statutory definitions to the exclusion of the general definition which includes an animal which damages property etc.

Iwannahurl

gozunda wrote: »

...but there will be many cats

Blessed are the cats, dogs, rats, cockroaches and fleas, for they shall inherit the Earth...

Iwannahurl

gozunda wrote: »

Cats are understood to have a propensity to roam - even domestic cats. There is no legal requirement to lock up a cat or restrict a cat.

It sounds you are one of those who 'hate' cats for some bizarre reason but have no rational basis for this

Personally I believe such 'haters' have a form of leftover psychosis about cats from catholic witch burnings in the Middle Ages.

Personally I have some very good reasons for disliking cats, especially the ones prowling my neighbourhood. However, I would acknowledge that the primary problem is not the moggies themselves but their ignorant, irresponsible, untraceable and unaccountable owners.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=80809055&postcount=564

inisboffin

Currently cat owners aren't accountable for their pets. How can they be fully?

It isn't that easy *at all* to differentiate between an 'owned' and an 'un-owned' cat (many cats without official owners are often fed, and even taken and neutered but different people in an area).

There is no way at the moment to make owners 'more responsible' for their cat's behaviour, it's in the cat's nature to wander and is nigh on impossible to monitor that. Owners can of course neuter cats and make sure that they are healthy, but the can still catch and pass things on, particularly if they are 'gone for a few days' cats (some do!).
The only way to control cats is to make them indoor cats like they have in some large urban areas. Many declaw the cats so they won't destroy furniture. Aside with how you feel about this morally, it simply wouldn't work for many people, including working 'mousers' in rural areas (and urban), that are seen as 'working' cats.